ICU tournament membership requirements

Chess_Coach

Rules Governing ICU Membership and Participation in Tournaments
Pat Fitzsimons
With effect from the 1st of February the following rules will apply to all tournaments (other than international team tournaments held under the auspices of the ICU, such as The Glorney Gilbert International) held in Ireland which are ICU rated:
All participants in such tournaments, irrespective of their nationality or native chess federation, must be fully subscribed members of the ICU.
No person can be accepted as a participant in any tournament governed by these rules unless he/she fulfils the above condition.
The responsibility rests with the organisers of the tournaments in question to ensure that these rules are fully implemented.
Where a person wishes to become a member of the ICU in order to participate in a tournament or event, the organisers should facilitate the collection of the requisite fee prior to the commencement of the tournament or event through the use of the ICU online subscription form.
Where a player who is not a member of the ICU participates in a tournament governed by these rules, the tournament or event organisers will be liable.
The ICU reserves the right to take action in cases where it perceives that the organisers of a tournament have been negligent in applying these rules or have been persistent offenders in this regard. Such action may include refusal to rate the tournament as a whole, withdrawal of grants to the organisers in question, and any other action which the ICU deems appropriate

Chess_Coach

This is great now as ICu will get so many GM and IM s . I would like to see them registering and playing for clubs. I have already asked GM Bogdan Lalic to join Enniscorthy - he might play game or two ?

checknraise

While I agree with the rule in principal I am amazed that the rule has been introduced with immediate affect.

Instead of introducing the rule why not just ask the sponsor for a cheque for x amount as that is what is going to happen. It does appear without knowing the full facts that the ICU are attacking the Bunratty tournament as they do not agree with how they run things. It seems extremely shortsighted. Instead of supporting a tournament that has been organised where Ireland can produce its first home grown GM and is hosting probably the strongest weekend tournament in Ireland and quite possibly anywhere in the world the ICU introduce this petty rule immediately.

If the ICU felt they had to introduce the rule the only fair way would have been to give a notice period of say 6 months so all organiser's are aware and have time to plan.

I can only assume the ICU exec have lost the plot voting in this rule immediately and I expect it to backfire.

mikhail

I'm just looking at the rating info for Kilkenny to get a sense of the scale of the problem.

Masters: 24 players, 8 foreign (rating not tracked).
Major: 48 players, 1 foreign
James Mason: 47 players, 3 foreign, 1 "new" rating (player seems to be very active but not a member, unless it's just a new player of the same name)
Challengers: 87 players, 20 new, 12 unrated ICU members.

I'm not too sympathetic to active Irish-based players who aren't ICU members, but there don't seem to be many of these, probably as a result of the LCU leagues requiring ICU membership. So this affects two kinds of people:
1. Foreign players. Masters getting conditions won't see this; instead the cost will be borne by the regular players (already ICU members) paying tournament entry fees. Weaker foreign players will be discouraged from entry by the tournament entry fee effectively doubling. I don't really see any benefit from either of these.

2. New players. I'm in two minds here: on one hand, I think the ICU needs to do more to steer new players towards competitive play (most school players never even hear of tournaments or the ICU), but on the other hand, this places an additional cost on players entering their first tournament, and therefore an additional barrier to entry.

cdeb

How many of those Irish-based players haven't paid fees for this year though?

That info won't show up on the ratings site. For existing (or one-time) members, ratings are tracked regardless of whether you've paid fees this year.

(I don't think it's that many as you say, but it's just something I don't think you've covered fully above)

reunion

Irish Chess Union wrote:

With effect from the 1st of February the following rules will apply to all tournaments (other than international team tournaments held under the auspices of the ICU, such as The Glorney Gilbert International) held in Ireland which are ICU rated:

All participants in such tournaments, irrespective of their nationality or native chess federation, must be fully subscribed members of the ICU.

No person can be accepted as a participant in any tournament governed by these rules unless he/she fulfils the above condition.

The responsibility rests with the organisers of the tournaments in question to ensure that these rules are fully implemented.

Where a person wishes to become a member of the ICU in order to participate in a tournament or event, the organisers should facilitate the collection of the requisite fee prior to the commencement of the tournament or event through the use of the ICU online subscription form.

Where a player who is not a member of the ICU participates in a tournament governed by these rules, the tournament or event organisers will be liable.

The ICU reserves the right to take action in cases where it perceives that the organisers of a tournament have been negligent in applying these rules or have been persistent offenders in this regard. Such action may include refusal to rate the tournament as a whole, withdrawal of grants to the organisers in question, and any other action which the ICU deems appropriate.

Outright absurd to be posted on the ICU site 5 days before in comes into effect. Does this apply to FIDE rated events held in Ireland but not ICU rated? What happened to minutes and transparency? Why were members not informed?

I can see the benefit of not joining the ICU and running tournaments not rated by the ICU.

brilliantboy

mikhail wrote: »

2. New players. I'm in two minds here: on one hand, I think the ICU needs to do more to steer new players towards competitive play (most school players never even hear of tournaments or the ICU), but on the other hand, this places an additional cost on players entering their first tournament, and therefore an additional barrier to entry.

I don't think it's a huge barrier. The subscription for new Junior players is only €10,
while new adult players will be well used to exorbitant hobby related expenses.

Chess_Coach

I do not think that this is a problem at all .
This is normal in all States where I used to play . I played tournament in Hungary - had to pay the fee,Italy - same . In USA you have to pay fee in all States etc. It is time that players playing here in Ireland support Irish Chess .

Tournament organizer gets from ICU
1. Free adds and promotion at the ICU web site
2. Free post in ICU calendar
3. Free rating - all players rated members and non members
4. 500 euro support in the past
5. Database of players etc

ICU from Tournament Organizer

1.Nothing
2.Nothing
3.Nothing etc

Note that this was planned for long and it is just good time for it .

Regarding Master tournament - I think and I might be wrong that the National Organization should send the results to FIDE and it is up to Organization to do so .
As well one GM cost to bring him or her to Ireland is around 1000 euro if not more .

For that money 50 of them could be subscribed ICU members . What is in your opinion more important for you ?

For the end ICU will give support to tournament organizers of 2 e per ICU member and 5 e For new subscribed member . I think this is fair but I might be wrong .

brilliantboy

Chess_Coach wrote: »

ICU from Tournament Organizer

1.Nothing
2.Nothing
3.Nothing etc

Lets not forget that the ICU exists to serve the chess playing public and not the other way around

Lucena

“All participants in such tournaments, irrespective of their nationality or native chess federation, must be fully subscribed members of the ICU.”

This would seem to add a lot of unnecessary expense to Irish tournaments for foreign players. I believe there’s quite a strong UK delegation that plays in Bunratty every year, they might find it off-putting, except maybe for the GMs who might have their membership paid by the organisers.

@Chess Coach

When did you play in Italy and have to stump up for Italian Chess Federation membership? I played there last September and didn’t have to pay anything extra beyond the normal tournament entry fee.

Anyone who wants to play here in France can do so without joining the FFE providing they're already members of another national federation.

cdeb

I've played a number of foreign tournaments and not had to join the foreign federation as well. Unless it was built into the entry fees or something.

CCYM

I've played in Italy, Germany and Austria in the last 2 years and was never ordered to join and subscribe to their national federation.

Lucena

CCYM wrote: »

I've played in Italy, Germany and Austria in the last 2 years and was never ordered to join and subscribe to their national federation.

Quick derail. Can you recommend any of the tournaments you went to? I'm always on the look-out for new tournaments to go to.

reunion

Chess_Coach wrote: »

I do not think that this is a problem at all .
This is normal in all States where I used to play . I played tournament in Hungary - had to pay the fee,Italy - same . In USA you have to pay fee in all States etc. It is time that players playing here in Ireland support Irish Chess .

Can you please link me to chess federations that mandate you must be a full member if you are a foreign player to compete? I note that the British chess federation has a per tournament fee OR a yearly fee but you certainly don't need to be a full member.

Irrespective if this is a good idea or not, it is rather moronic to decide a new rule (with severe implications) and only give 5 days notice. Particularly when it affects tournaments currently advertised and people's travel plans.

Chess_Coach wrote: »

Tournament organizer gets from ICU
1. Free adds and promotion at the ICU web site
2. Free post in ICU calendar
3. Free rating - all players rated members and non members
4. 500 euro support in the past
5. Database of players etc

for 5. You are confusing an arbiter with an organizer. An arbiter submits the games to be rated and has access to the database of players (FIDE has a database free of charge too).

For 3. players are paying for this rating not the organizers.

For 4. This is not applicable currently so how is that even a point?

For 1 and 2, typically it's the organizers that write the comments which are published and quite frankly, I don't remember the last time I checked either of these things for notification about a tournament. Usually there are leaflets at other tournaments and word of mouth is probably the best advertising. The advertising the ICU offers wouldn't make up the loss of foreign or new players.

Chess_Coach wrote: »

ICU from Tournament Organizer

1.Nothing
2.Nothing
3.Nothing etc

Loads of people playing chess? advertisement in papers? a chance at a GM norm for our players? Sponsors? Experience for our Arbiters? Without tournament organizers, the ICU just runs the Irish Championships (and Juniors) and National Club Championships. The Irish Chess scene would look pretty lonely. At the moment, the bulk of people pay membership fees BECAUSE of tournament organizers.

The ICU needs the organizers more than they need the ICU. And that comments just confirms you have never run a tournament in your life.

Chess_Coach wrote: »

Note that this was planned for long and it is just good time for it .

Was it planned? because we find out on the 27th that it is to be law in 6 days. If it was planned, there would be a grace period (and it would apply from the start of the membership year).

The last conversation I heard on the matter, the agreement was to let new/unrated players play until they have a rating, then they are required to pay the membership Capitation fee.

Chess_Coach wrote: »

Regarding Master tournament - I think and I might be wrong that the National Organization should send the results to FIDE and it is up to Organization to do so .
As well one GM cost to bring him or her to Ireland is around 1000 euro if not more .

AS far as I'm aware FIDE bill the ICU a set amount each year. FIDE do not care if the tournament has or hasn't ICU members.

Other GM's are free, depending on how well you know them, previous dealings, prize fund, etc.

Chess_Coach wrote: »

For the end ICU will give support to tournament organizers of 2 e per ICU member and 5 e For new subscribed member . I think this is fair but I might be wrong .

No it's horrifically stupid. Cork Congress is in March, Galway is in Sept/Oct. The bulk of players will have signed up in Galway, meaning there is no incentive for Cork to do anything or a fair distribution of money. Meaning Galway will get more money then Cork. I'd rather a full schedule of good tournaments rather than 1 good tournament.

Does this mean all the club championships in clubs now get €2 or €5 per member? I don't see ANYTHING on the announcement about this. Why aren't people informed about this?

ICU site wrote:

"Competition" means any tournament, league, match or any other competition in which ICU members participate, including "rapid chess" competitions but excluding both internal club championships, speed and lightning chess events, and events under the auspices of the IJCA and ICCA or the Community games.

Someone better tell the Community games they better fork over all those membership fees.

Lucena wrote: »

This would seem to add a lot of unnecessary expense to Irish tournaments for foreign players. I believe there’s quite a strong UK delegation that plays in Bunratty every year, they might find it off-putting, except maybe for the GMs who might have their membership paid by the organisers.

They have a valid point for foreign players about the fees IF there was a lower rate available for an individual tournament.

For a beginner, €35 before you include entry, accommodation, food and travel is a bit unrealistic and WILL hurt numbers.

Again another discouragement to university players. Many erasmus students won't pay €20 + accommodation + entry fee + travel + food. They need a per tournament/weekend fee (€5?) otherwise it becomes too expensive for an erasmus student to play.

CCYM

Hi Lucena,
I've played in Ischia (July/August) which is a small island (next to Capri) off the coast of Naples and details of the tournament can be found at their website (which for some reason I can't post). Vienna is a tournament that's run every 2 years in August and 2015 is the designated year. It is held in the Vienna Town Hall and is another great location and well organised tournament they also have a website. I've also played in Baden-Baden in Germany but my favourite ones are either Vienna or Ischia.

Sparks

ICU site wrote:

"Competition" means any tournament, league, match or any other competition in which ICU members participate, including "rapid chess" competitions but excluding both internal club championships, speed and lightning chess events, and events under the auspices of the IJCA and ICCA or the Community games.

Are the various club charity events included in that group of exclusions?
Just saying, it'd be kindof nice if they got a specific mention, so it doesn't look like the ICU wants a cut of any charity donations raised by clubs.

Lucena

CCYM wrote: »

Hi Lucena,
I've played in Ischia (July/August) which is a small island (next to Capri) off the coast of Naples and details of the tournament can be found at their website (which for some reason I can't post). Vienna is a tournament that's run every 2 years in August and 2015 is the designated year. It is held in the Vienna Town Hall and is another great location and well organised tournament they also have a website. I've also played in Baden-Baden in Germany but my favourite ones are either Vienna or Ischia.

Thanks CCYM! What was B-B like? I live within driving distance of the place, and often thought about entering. I've been to the town itself, and it seemed a bit, well, retirement village for rich people, didn't seem like there'd be much crack in the evenings after the games.

Regarding not being able to post, I think you need to have 50 posts to your name before you can post links, to stop people just signing up to promote whatever.

reunion

I sure hope that everyone at this simul are full members registered with the ICU

HaraldSchmidt

One of the nice things about chess is how one can visit a chess club anywhere in the world, and even without speaking the local language, one can get a game and feel welcome. The same holds true for players entering tournaments in most European countries. So long as the player is a member of a federation affiliated to FIDE, then he or she is allowed to play without becoming a member of that country's chess federation. (The US seems to be an exception, where USCF membership, as already noted, is mandatory). It's a sad day when the land of the Cead Mile Failte, becomes one of "Give us your €35 first".

While it's a good idea to insist on players, resident in Ireland, being paid up members of the ICU, taxing our visitors will be counterproductive to all Irish tournaments, not just Bunratty.

The major threat for tournaments that don't check and insist on ICU membership seems to be rescinding of the ICU grant money, followed by possible non-rating of the event.

In Bunratty's case, they are big enough and have enough funding not to need the €300 grant. However, if the ICU rating officer refused to rate the event, I for one, will be asking why my games, as a paid up member, have not been rated.

If the worst comes to the worst, the ICU rating system could be replicated elsewhere. All the software is open source, and it shouldn't be too hard to get a copy of the data.

Ficheall

I invited five players over from the UK for a tournament last year and hosted them for the weekend.

The flights cost €27, the bus cost €26, and the competition entry cost €15.
I strongly suspect that a further €35 would have prevented any of them from coming - despite the prestige and rewards that come with becoming part of Ireland's wonderful chess union...

Chess_Coach

The membership for Overseas players is only 20 e per year

HaraldSchmidt

From what I have heard, the people who run the Bunratty, Cork, Drogheda, Galway, Kilkenny and Malahide tournaments have got together and written to the executive asking to talk about this change. A sensible modification of the new rule would be that all players must be current paid-up members of a chess federation affiliated with FIDE. If not, then you have to join the ICU. This is fair and reasonable, welcoming to foreign visitors.

HaraldSchmidt

From what I have heard, the people who run the Bunratty, Cork, Drogheda, Galway, Kilkenny and Malahide tournaments have got together and written to the executive asking to talk about this change. This is an indication of how seriously the organizers take this new rule.

A sensible modification of the new rule would be that all players must be current paid-up members of a chess federation affiliated with FIDE. If not, then you have to join the ICU. This is fair and reasonable, welcoming to foreign visitors.

Chess_Coach

What I have heard is that Disciplinary actions might be taken against individuals who sabotage the ICU . That might not be true but lets see.














I would suggest that ICU Executive will stay firm on this decision .

Chess_Coach

I would suggest that ICU Executive will stay firm on this decision .

maol

The ICU committee is elected to serve the chess community in Ireland. Of course it has to raise funds, but this idea sounds more like sucking something out of the chess community than helping it. I've played chess in many European countries and the issue of joining the national federation has never arisen.

Chess_Coach

Maol
Bunratty Chess Congress got as I know might be wrong 2500 euro in past 5 years from ICU . All we wanted is that all players are ICU members . Is that to much . That actually was written at tournaments leaflets in the past .
Now most European Countries have funding from State and Sponsors as in the most European States Chess is a Sport .
All other tournaments are organized by clubs only Bunratty chess tournament is Private Business which makes profit to Organizer . Which club or chess community is behind this tournament ?
Why would I pay my membership and others playing tournament not .
Now back to your post - most European States do not have double rating just the FIDE one. So Organizer is paying 1 e per game . Lets now translate this to Irish Chess Union on base of 50 cents per game . How much money that would be ?
Do you know any organization that will rate games of non members ? Tell me which one pls ?

Irish Warrior

From the Bunratty Website terms & conditions...

All Irish participants must be current members of the ICU and in good standing. Anyone who's membership has been revoked shall not be allowed to enter the tournament until such time as they are reinstated.

What has been done is the ICU have stated that a rule (that has been in existence for as long as I can remember) will once again be enforced, as some tournaments were simply not enforcing it. They also now added foreign players to it, and outlined penalties tournaments could face for not enforcing it.

Evidence of this can been seen from the list of entries for Bunratty prior to the ICU announcement that is floating around and was agreed to by the tournament organizer of Bunratty. That close to (if not more than) half the entrants were not subscribed members of the ICU, nor were they likely to be.

What was the ICU to do? Enforce it now, or wait until after Bunratty? In which case people would call foul since the tournament organizer of Bunratty is on the ICU exec.

I am curious as to what people are upset about...
That the existing rule will once again be enforced? That foreign players were added to it? That it will come into effect for Bunratty?

Chess_Coach

If I could just add that all Foriegn players playing NCC must be members of the ICU . One of the most passionate people to defend this enforcement was indeed Bunratty Chess congress organizer .

From ICU NCC rules

All players must be members of the club they are representing. For the purposes of these rules, in order to be considered a member of the club, a player must satisfy at least one of the following conditions (or an equivalent at the discretion of the arbiter):
He/she has played for the club in at least two previous National Club Championships.
He/she has played for the club in a provincial league at least three times in the current season.
He/she lives or works within the local area of the club.

brilliantboy

It's absurd to ask someone who is jetting in just for Bunratty to pay a membership fee to a foreign federation on top of all of their other expenses. And if they decide to play Kilkenny or another tournament later in the year they have to pay again as a subscription runs from Sep to Aug? :rolleyes:

The rule is anti-chess and needs to be modified

Chess_Coach

Good lets then follow the FIDE example

Fide charges 1 e per rated game. The fee is paid by Organizer .
ICU is sorting rating for this tournament . How about 50 cents charge for all rated games ?

To have one GM at tournament cost from 500e to 1000e depends on traveling cost and condition .
Is it really that big problem to add extra 20 e ?

In the past 5 years Bunratty Chess Congress got 500 e per year from ICU . Dont you think that is maybe just kind or nice to help ICU as well . Is this really such a big problem .

Why the NCC players have to pay ICU membership ?