stomach tubing a calf

Tomjim

can you stomach tube a calf a number of times or should it be restricted. Calf with a scour and it is handier to stomach tube

Genghis Cant

Tomjim wrote: »

can you stomach tube a calf a number of times or should it be restricted. Calf with a scour and it is handier to stomach tube

Yeah, I've done it several times. But I'd be cognisant of the fact that every time you do it you risk causing irritation.
So lube her up, proceed gently, and do it as few times as ya can get away with I'd be thinking.

onyerbikepat

I have the rigid tube type with the plastic bottle. Every time I use it, I use very fine emery paper to smoothen out the rough bits where the calf bites it with his teeth. I use lube on it aswell.
Better to tube a calf than let him die of dehydration.
Last year I tubed the same suckler calf with crypo scour, twice a day for about 10 days. I had to put him in the de-horning crate though to keep him from bucking about. He made a full recovery.

Sami23

I have a 10 week old calf very sick from scour and wont suck the cow.
Just wondering is he too old to stomach tube her or what is the oldest you can stomach tube calves.?
Scour has now cleared up but she has no appetite to suck cow or a bottle so I've been syringing electrolytes and milk into her up to now.
Or has anyone any ideas to get her going again - she gets up every now and then but is wobbly on her feet when she does.
Thanks

whelan2

Get some natural yoghurt into her. Use a dosing syringe.

Sami23

whelan2 wrote: »

Get some natural yoghurt into her. Use a dosing syringe.

1 tub of it or more ?
She's a week like this now. She's been at the vets and in injections too so I'm not holding out much hope tbh but will try anything I can

whelan2

The natural yoghurt will help the stomach to start working again. I would give 200ml morning and evening.

Sami23

whelan2 wrote: »

The natural yoghurt will help the stomach to start working again. I would give 200ml morning and evening.

Thanks for that.
Don't suppose you know if she can be stomach tubed at that age

whelan2

Yes she could . Just watch she doesn't chew the tube

_Brian

Electrolytes too.
Morning and evening.


Electrolytes 20 minutes before the feed, the natural youghert can be incorporated into milk and fed together.

Sami23

_Brian wrote: »

Electrolytes too.
Morning and evening.


Electrolytes 20 minutes before the feed, the natural youghert can be incorporated into milk and fed together.

Yes shes's getting electrolytes for the last week twice a day. Varying between effadral and a pink powder from XL vets. Would a litre twice daily be enough ?
Also getting Ketovit daily.

patsy_mccabe

Isn't there something about not stomach tubing milk to older calves?
Doesn't the tube end go into a different stomach than where the milk would go, from natural drinking.

patsy_mccabe

Sami23 wrote: »

Yes shes's getting electrolytes for the last week twice a day. Varying between effadral and a pink powder from XL vets. Would a litre twice daily be enough ?
Also getting Ketovit daily.

Could the calf have crypto scour?

_Brian

Sami23 wrote: »

Yes shes's getting electrolytes for the last week twice a day. Varying between effadral and a pink powder from XL vets. Would a litre twice daily be enough ?
Also getting Ketovit daily.

We would try for 2L twice daily
Find that effadryl great stuff.

Sami23

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Isn't there something about not stomach tubing milk to older calves?
Doesn't the tube end go into a different stomach than where the milk would go, from natural drinking.

Yes that's exactly why I was asking as thought I heard something about a second stomach before.
Would you suggest I continue feeding with a syringe/dosing gun ?

_Brian

Sami23 wrote: »

Yes that's exactly why I was asking as thought I heard something about a second stomach before.
Would you suggest I continue feeding with a syringe/dosing gun ?

I would have thought it ok at 10 weeks but am really interested to see other opinions on that.

Sami23

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Could the calf have crypto scour?

Vet sent a dung sample away Monday but no results yet but said it's a possibility

Mooooo

Did the vet put the calf on a drip?

Sami23

Mooooo wrote: »

Did the vet put the calf on a drip?

No he was going to but gave her electrolytes and some other stuff incl. bread soda through the stomach tube instead but advised against giving her milk through the stomach tube so I was saying that to others and they had never heard you couldn't stomach tube an older calf so that's why I was looking for peoples experiences and opinions here.

Mooooo

Should have given a drip imo. Agree above with the effydral. 3 times a day. Try a feed morning and evening then as well. Dung sample should help. Do you think the calf got enough biestings first day?

patsy_mccabe

Here ya go;

The problem with tube feeding milk to older calves is that a lot of it will go into the rumen, which isn’t fully developed yet, instead of passing into the abomasum for proper digestion to occur.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/livestock-feed-nutrition/guide-to-feeding-newborn-calves-colostrum

whelan2

I think.at this stage it's not going to do too much harm. Eggs are also good for giving energy

patsy_mccabe

A 10 week old calf is going to need a serious amount of fluid. It's not just the normal fluid it would drink, but also you have to replace lost fluids from the scour.

I would try and get the calf to drink from a bottle teat first. If it won't drink, then tube away. I normally add about 4 desert spoons of the natural yogurt to the attached home made electrolyte.

With your older calf, I'd give 3 litres 3 times a day. What do others think?

_Brian

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

A 10 week old calf is going to need a serious amount of fluid. It's not just the normal fluid it would drink, but also you have to replace lost fluids from the scour.

I would try and get the calf to drink from a bottle teat first. If it won't drink, then tube away. I normally add about 4 desert spoons of the natural yogurt to the attached home made electrolyte.

With your older calf, I'd give 3 litres 3 times a day. What do others think?

We keep any feed separate and after electrolytes. The body will better utilise the feed when the benifet of the electrolytes has been absorbed which takes about 20minutes. The increased fluid also lifts BP from dehydration making the calf feel better and more likely to actually want the feed.

This may seem an odd notion but with a calf that is “a bit sick” we use the home made electrolytes, if a calf is very bad we always use the commercial formulations.

patsy_mccabe

Makes sense. Remember though, this is a suckler calf, so unless they milk the cow, where will they get milk to give it.

_Brian

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Makes sense. Remember though, this is a suckler calf, so unless they milk the cow, where will they get milk to give it.

Calf is a week not sucking so something must be happening with the cow, either milking or another calf sucking.

Bag of milk replacer would be cheap if it saves the calf.

Sami23

_Brian wrote: »

Calf is a week not sucking so something must be happening with the cow, either milking or another calf sucking.

Bag of milk replacer would be cheap if it saves the calf.

Yes I milked the cow a couple of times but she not too fond of that approach so have been getting some milk from a local dairy farmer last few days.

Bit concerned of cow going dry now also

_Brian

Sami23 wrote: »

Yes I milked the cow a couple of times but she not too fond of that approach so have been getting some milk from a local dairy farmer last few days.

Bit concerned of cow going dry now also

Handy to get the milk.
If the cow is feeding well and not being sucked or milked I’d be worried about mastitis more than her going dry.

Definitely increase the electrolytes the calf is getting. It’s a pain but I would have done night time electrolytes when it’s needed. Dehydration will kill a calf, but it also makes them lethargic and destroys their appetite. Within reason there’s no over doing it as same as ourselves excess will just pass through.

patsy_mccabe

Did you dose for Coccidiosis?

Sami23

_Brian wrote: »

Handy to get the milk.
If the cow is feeding well and not being sucked or milked I’d be worried about mastitis more than her going dry.

Definitely increase the electrolytes the calf is getting. It’s a pain but I would have done night time electrolytes when it’s needed. Dehydration will kill a calf, but it also makes them lethargic and destroys their appetite. Within reason there’s no over doing it as same as ourselves excess will just pass through.

I'm finding when I'm dosing him the electrolytes there's only so much he will take / swallow before it just runs out of his mouth

Sami23

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Did you dose for Coccidiosis?

Tbh the vet gave her a good few injections so not exactly sure what they all were.

I hadn't dosed myself

_Brian

Coccidiosis is a possibility but surely the vet would have thought abkut that.

It’s frustrating but keep the electrolytes going in. While they can live a time on little food they die quickly from dehydration.

charolais0153

Stomach tube in electrolytes and natural yoghurt. 3 or 4 times a day. Dose for coccidiosis too

Sami23

charolais0153 wrote: »

Stomach tube in electrolytes and natural yoghurt. 3 or 4 times a day. Dose for coccidiosis too

What dose would be best for coccidiosis ?

She was actually weaker this evening so it's not looking good at all

Lime Tree Farm

Sami23 wrote: »

What dose would be best for coccidiosis ?

She was actually weaker this evening so it's not look thing good at all

we give Vecoxan at 18 to 21 days old for Coccidiosis. I wouldn't give that to your calf without consulting your Vet.

I would be inclined to think your calf at 10 days old has Rotavirus, To prevent it in calves, we have to vaccinate annually the pregnant cows prior to calving.

charolais0153

Lime Tree Farm wrote: »

we give Vecoxan at 18 to 21 days old for Coccidiosis. I wouldn't give that to your calf without consulting your Vet.

I would be inclined to think your calf at 10 days old has Rotavirus, To prevent it in calves, we have to vaccinate annually the pregnant cows prior to calving.

10 weeks

charolais0153

Sami23 wrote: »

What dose would be best for coccidiosis ?

She was actually weaker this evening so it's not looking good at all

We give dycoxan or Vecoxan, ask vet for drip tomorrow am if she's still in it

longgonesilver

How much milk did the cow have?

Packets of electrolytes don't contain enough food to maintain even a very young calf. They are designed to support a calf for a few days only. Consult your vet again on on going treatment and feeding.

whelan2

How is she today ?

The11Duff

Tomjim wrote: »

can you stomach tube a calf a number of times or should it be restricted. Calf with a scour and it is handier to stomach tube

My vet advised me to use a dosing gun. Its far easier.

Sami23

whelan2 wrote: »

How is she today ?

Ah she's worse - flat out in shed not able to lift head. Gave her more electrolytes but no saving her I'm afraid at this stage.
Thanks to everyone for their advice and help.

Westernrock

Sami23 wrote: »

Ah she's worse - flat out in shed not able to lift head. Gave her more electrolytes but no saving her I'm afraid at this stage.
Thanks to everyone for their advice and help.

Stomach tube 3-4 L of electrolytes into her, it sounds like she’s been getting more and more dehydrated. You would never get enough into them with a dosing syringe and are more likely to give them an aspiration pneumonia.

Sami23

Westernrock wrote: »

Stomach tube 3-4 L of electrolytes into her, it sounds like she’s been getting more and more dehydrated. You would never get enough into them with a dosing syringe and are more likely to give them an aspiration pneumonia.

I'll give it a go but can't see her doing any good. Her eyes are well sunkin in and even a muscus starting to form in her eyes now. I can't get her to take much milk at all either

Sami23

longgonesilver wrote: »

How much milk did the cow have?

Packets of electrolytes don't contain enough food to maintain even a very young calf. They are designed to support a calf for a few days only. Consult your vet again on on going treatment and feeding.

The cow has average size bag of milk. A 2nd calver chx

Westernrock

Sami23 wrote: »

I'll give it a go but can't see her doing any good. Her eyes are well sunkin in and even a muscus starting to form in her eyes now. I can't get her to take much milk at all either

The sunken eyes is a sure sign of dehydration, I’d be guessing she’s 8-10% dehydrated if she’s down so you will need to give 8-10% of her body weight in fluids to correct this, never mind what she would need on top of the deficit. 1L is 1Kg so if she was 80kg 10% is 8L, now I know you won’t give that all in one go, ideally she would get 3L of it from a drip and 3L orally then another 3L orally later tonight. You have nothing to lose at this stage by trying to tune her, death usually occurs at 12-15% dehydration. Dehydration kills more calves than the actual diseases that cause the scour in the first place and unfortunately the only way to get a calf over these bad scours is lots of fluids, even if it was only water it’s better than nothing.

patsy_mccabe

By the way, have the water at body temperature when tubing her. I tubed a newborn today that hadn't drank after 3 hours. I hate tubing. You're always worried that you are gone into the lungs, especially with a weak calf.

Westernrock

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

By the way, have the water at body temperature when tubing her. I tubed a newborn today that hadn't drank after 3 hours. I hate tubing. You're always worried that you are gone into the lungs, especially with a weak calf.

You should be able to feel the tube going down the oesophagus when it’s in the right place, ask your vet to show you sometime they are out

Lime Tree Farm

Vet Tommy Heffernan

https://www.google.com/search?q=tips+for+stomach+tuube+a+calf&oq=tips+for+stomach+tuube+a+calf&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.9939j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

patsy_mccabe

Westernrock wrote: »

You should be able to feel the tube going down the oesophagus when it’s in the right place, ask your vet to show you sometime they are out

Ya, I know all that. Still when you're struggling with a lively calf and he goes nuts when the tube goes down, you're trying to hold the calf with one hand, hold the tube off the ground and still try to check the tube is right..... not easy.

Westernrock

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Ya, I know all that. Still when you're struggling with a lively calf and he goes nuts when the tube goes down, you're trying to hold the calf with one hand, hold the tube off the ground and still try to check the tube is right..... not easy.

I know, so many times with different jobs where an extra pair of hands makes the job 10x easier but you always find yourself on your own 🀷*♂️🀔 I usually put the calf in a corner next a gate and hang the bag on the gate then check it’s in the right place before opening the valve on the tube. I find they only really start fighting when it starts to flow into them so I lift the bag off the gate when it’s opened so I can move with the calf abit but trying to keep them fairly still with my legs! Not easy!!

Mooooo

Use the tubes with the screw on caps for the feeder bottles here, much easier to hold than a bag. When we had the one with the bag used to have a hook to hang of a gate for it. Quiet calf grand, but the lively ones that are too stubborn to drink can be a pain. Nearly always end up with either a kick to the head or to the balls!