How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

haveringchick

Would it be fair to say that some of the younger yes campaigners didn't really expect there to be much of a no campaign?
If the extent of your life experience so far is your home and Uni then it might come as a shock to realise that there is a whole section of society that doesnt share your world view.
This would explain the knee jerk reaction to the posters.

Links234

haveringchick wrote: »

This would explain the knee jerk reaction to the posters.

Or the simpler explanation that the no side are dishonest, manipulative, wrong and outright nasty, and people have reacted accordingly?

Bannasidhe

haveringchick wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that some of the younger yes campaigners didn't really expect there to be much of a no campaign?
If the extent of your life experience so far is your home and Uni then it might come as a shock to realise that there is a whole section of society that doesnt share your world view.
This would explain the knee jerk reaction to the posters.

Stating that campaign posters should be truthful, not offensive, and relevant is knee-jerking now?

Well golly gosh - the dictionary has sure redefined some words since I did the ol honours English for my leaving cert as a young out lesbian back in 1981.

I have obviously also completely forgotten the vile, lying, manipulative, posters put up by the ideological bedfellows of the No campaign back in the 80s Abortion Referendum. And the vile, lying, manipulative, posters put up by the ideological bedfellows of the No campaign back in the 90s Divorce referendum.

Has it occurred to you that people are just sick to the back teeth of vile, lying, manipulative posters from neo-cons screaming at them from lampposts?

PopePalpatine

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I wouldn't expect anything less than dramatic from Padding Manning.

Surely putting up offensive and misleading posters trying to scare monger people into voting a certain way is dishonest and an attack on democracy?

You're talking about a guy who saw nothing homophobic about getting brutalised by a pack of thugs.

haveringchick

Links234 wrote: »

Or the simpler explanation that the no side are dishonest, manipulative, wrong and outright nasty, and people have reacted accordingly?

As you know life is cruel. It's tough. If I were to react every time my feelings were hurt I'd never get anything done.
Maybe you manage to avoid situations which may offend you but I can't.
Following your gut reaction is not always the best course of action.
The young people in that video appear not only equally intolerant to the forces behind the posters , they also appear sly in that they havnt the courage of their convictions to the degree where they are happy to be identified.
Bad move.

haveringchick

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Stating that campaign posters should be truthful, not offensive, and relevant is knee-jerking now?

Well golly gosh - the dictionary has sure redefined some words since I did the ol honours English for my leaving cert as a young out lesbian back in 1981.

I have obviously also completely forgotten the vile, lying, manipulative, posters put up by the ideological bedfellows of the No campaign back in the 80s Abortion Referendum. And the vile, lying, manipulative, posters put up by the ideological bedfellows of the No campaign back in the 90s Divorce referendum.

Has it occurred to you that people are just sick to the back teeth of vile, lying, manipulative posters from neo-cons screaming at them from lampposts?

You can be as sick of them as you like. You can be as offended as you like. What you can't do is silence the Opposition.
Where are the yes campaigns posters refuting these claims? Surely they knew the campaign would get dirty?

Bannasidhe

haveringchick wrote: »

If all cacampaig

And the End apparently justifies the Means.

Never a philosophy that appealed to me.

In a democracy I honestly do not believe that we insist on truth and standards in campaigns is either knee-jerking or outrageous. It should be a given.

If one is going to complain about one side behaving badly but fails to complain about the other side doing likewise that is not 'campaigning' - that is inherent bias.

NuMarvel

haveringchick wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that some of the younger yes campaigners didn't really expect there to be much of a no campaign?
If the extent of your life experience so far is your home and Uni then it might come as a shock to realise that there is a whole section of society that doesnt share your world view.
This would explain the knee jerk reaction to the posters.

It's not that they didn't expect a No campaign, I think they didn't expect if to be so dishonest. These posters are offensive to more than just yes campaigners and gay people, adoptive parents and single parents are objecting to them too.

I think if M&FM had any decency, they'd take those posters down outside schools at least, and should offer to remove them from outside houses of anyone who asks. My parents separated when I was young and that was hard enough to deal with. I wouldn't fancy going through that while also seeing posters with pictures of an idyllic family with a mum and dad.

Bannasidhe

haveringchick wrote: »

You can be as sick of them as you like. You can be as offended as you like. What you can't do is silence the Opposition.
Where are the yes campaigns posters refuting these claims? Surely they knew the campaign would get dirty?

Where did I say to silence them?

I said they would not be placed near schools if these people were as concerned about the welfare of children as they claim and if one appears outside my house I will removed it. This is actually within my rights as any poster on the particular lamppost will encroach on my private property. That is trespass.

Just like the posters that were placed in my brother's garden were on his private property. Just because he has a very large garden that fronts onto a main road did not give the No campaign the right to stick posters in his flowerbeds.

Overall, I happen to think they are an own goal tbh and the more they lie the greater the cost to the No side. It's a bizarre tactic - insult every single parent, widowed parent, adoptive parent, parents who needed medical assistance to conceive...

I am also saying it does not have to get 'dirty' actually. One only needs to resort to dirty if one has no reasonable argument.

I am amazed that anyone would argue that it is perfectly acceptable to lie to win and amused that the people who are telling the lies claim to be moral and following the word of their Messiah who had very firm things to say about lying and casting stones.

osarusan

haveringchick wrote: »

You can be as sick of them as you like. You can be as offended as you like. What you can't do is silence the Opposition.
Where are the yes campaigns posters refuting these claims? Surely they knew the campaign would get dirty?

What's your opinion on the posters themselves?

You know,the ones that scare monger using completely unconnected issues like surrogacy?



Also, could you comment on the fact that, even with all their scare mongering on unrelated issues, none of them mention links between LGBT and communism, which was your reason for your intended No vote. Would you share your opinions with us?

marienbad

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're familiar with the term 'civil disobedience'?

The posters by the no campaign are tantamount to incitement to hatred and intolerance, and there is nothing wrong with tearing them down as a form of protest. The no campaign should have been prohibited from putting them up in the first place.





I should be proud to live in a society where people are allowed to promote hate speech and discrimination? No, no I'm not actually.

Discrimination by the State against people who are LGBT, who are as much a part of society as anyone else, is not something that should ever have been put to a popular vote. I'm not proud to live in a society which invalidates the contributions to that society of it's citizens based upon their sexual orientation.

You are obviously not familiar with the term civil disobedience .

This is like a course on how to throw an election -

Tip No. I- tear down opposition posters and make a dislikeable position less dislikeable .

Tip No 2- tear down opposition posters that have alienated a sizable portion of the hitherto uninvolved electorate and thus denying them maximum exposure

Tip No 3- tear down opposition posters and make our side look like thugs

Tip No 4- waste limited time and resources tearing down opposition posters that could be more fruitfully used knocking on doors.

Tip No 5- fight for civil rights by denying civil rights to others


I could go on ,but what is the point , clueless attitude really .

haveringchick

osarusan wrote: »

What's your opinion on the posters themselves?

You know,the ones that scare monger using completely unconnected issues like surrogacy?



Also, could you comment on the fact that, even with all their scare mongering on unrelated issues, none of them mention links between LGBT and communism, which was your reason for your intended No vote. Would you share your opinions with us?

My opinion on the posters? No problem.
Do you have the right not to be offended? No you don't.
None of us do.
Have the posters been legally erected? It appears so.
Is the content breaking any laws? It appears not.
Do we live in a democracy where free speech is respected? Yes we do.
The no campaign have set out their stall. Wether you like their goods or not is irrelevant. They are obviously targeting the undecided/don't knows/ not bothered to votes. By any means necessary they will do their damnest to have the referendum defeated.
That's what the Yes campaigners should have done. Instead they determine to continue trying to win a slagging contest with those who cannot and will not change their minds.

Im still not convinced that LGBT doesn't have a communist agenda.

Ave Sodalis

haveringchick wrote: »

Im still not convinced that LGBT doesn't have a communist agenda.

Now LGBT have a communist agenda :rolleyes: It used to be just a gay agenda...

I love how the right to free speech is being used, whilst at the same time telling gay people to shut up and put up.

shruikan2553

They're communists. That's an even better reason to vote no than the guy who was complaining that he will have to specify he was married to a woman as people would assume he was gay.

Bannasidhe

haveringchick wrote: »

My opinion on the posters? No problem.
Do you have the right not to be offended? No you don't.
None of us do.
Have the posters been legally erected? It appears so.
Is the content breaking any laws? It appears not.
Do we live in a democracy where free speech is respected? Yes we do.
The no campaign have set out their stall. Wether you like their goods or not is irrelevant. They are obviously targeting the undecided/don't knows/ not bothered to votes. By any means necessary they will do their damnest to have the referendum defeated.
That's what the Yes campaigners should have done. Instead they determine to continue trying to win a slagging contest with those who cannot and will not change their minds.

Im still not convinced that LGBT doesn't have a communist agenda.

I do not disagree with most of that as such - but as you said - it's campaigning and campaigns get dirty. Seems a bit rich to condone 'dirty' on one side while bemoaning it on the other. The No side have also been guilty of 'illegal' acts such as smashing windows with Yes posters in them and defacing that contentious mural.

That highlighted bit however - care to explain how a sexual orientation can have a political philosophy?

G_R

haveringchick wrote: »

My opinion on the posters? No problem.
Do you have the right not to be offended? No you don't.
None of us do.
Have the posters been legally erected? It appears so.
Is the content breaking any laws? It appears not.
Do we live in a democracy where free speech is respected? Yes we do.
The no campaign have set out their stall. Wether you like their goods or not is irrelevant. They are obviously targeting the undecided/don't knows/ not bothered to votes. By any means necessary they will do their damnest to have the referendum defeated.
That's what the Yes campaigners should have done. Instead they determine to continue trying to win a slagging contest with those who cannot and will not change their minds.

Im still not convinced that LGBT doesn't have a communist agenda.

Any personal opinion on the content of posters? Do you agree with their message, for example?

And do you have any proof the LGBT (any particular advocacy group, or are we just lumping them all together now?) are involved in communism in any way - I'd be very interested in reading any links you can provide.

One eyed Jack

marienbad wrote: »

You are obviously not familiar with the term civil disobedience .

Familiar enough with it actually, and what these people are doing is indeed a refusal to comply with certain laws they consider unjust as a peaceful form of political protest. They're not interfering with people in tearing down posters.

This is like a course on how to throw an election -

Tip No. I- tear down opposition posters and make a dislikeable position less dislikeable .

How can you possibly make an unlikeable position which promotes discrimination, intolerance and misinformation any more likeable? I think you overestimate the influence of these campaigns upon people's opinions tbh.

Tip No 2- tear down opposition posters that have alienated a sizable portion of the hitherto uninvolved electorate and thus denying them maximum exposure

Same again - you're overestimating their influence upon anyone. People aren't that stupid that they are so easily influenced by a poster campaign. They will have already formed their opinions long before there was ever a referendum.

Tip No 3- tear down opposition posters and make our side look like thugs

I understand where you're coming from, but these are only a mere handful of people, and like I said to someone else already - most people don't have time to sit around on their holes all day watching YouTube videos and eyeballing what the other side are doing.

Most people understand exactly why people don't want to have those posters up every time they look out their window, or they walk outside their front gate, or they go to collect their children from school. They're disgusting.

I can't be held responsible though for the people that choose to tear down these posters, but I can't say I object to them doing it either.

Tip No 4- waste limited time and resources tearing down opposition posters that could be more fruitfully used knocking on doors.

Two minutes with a snips, I'm sure tearing down posters isn't a full-time job for these people either. They have plenty of time to do door-to-door canvassing in the meantime.

Tip No 5- fight for civil rights by denying civil rights to others

Nobody is denying anyone their civil rights. Nobody has the right to incite hatred among the general public, and that's exactly what these posters are doing, and just like I did with the YD abortion posters, I will make a complaint to Gardaí if I see these posters anywhere in my community.

I could go on ,but what is the point , clueless attitude really .

Indeed.

feardeas

Taking down posters is daft. However it is equally daft to think that this is the first time that it has happened. Posters are taken down, defaced etc. in every election and referendum.

For people to be squealing about it is nearly as daft. Nobody is inhibiting free speech at all. The broadcasters are single handedly keeping stop watch manufacturers in business. The two main daily newspapers have weekly articles from people who are attached to an organisation not campaigning but whose spokespeople seem to be spending an inordinate amount of their time speaking on the topic. This is, of course, their right.

The No campaign seem to think surrogacy is the issue to go on. They must think that adoption is not the way given the small number of children that that are adopted and the stringent processes involved. Call me naive but I would have faith in the system.

Surrogacy will need to be addressed for sure. However surely the ref commission might be able to enlighten us as to whether the constitution, as it stands, bans it or indeed allows it. As far as I know various legal experts believe that the issues are not linked.

Back to free speech and all that. David Quinn believes in it and he is dead right. Now he seems to be reluctant to extend the privilege to a former President. He is quite put out that she spoke on the issue. He seems to be equally perturbed, according to yesterday's missive in the Independent, that she and her son might give an interview before the campaign is over.

As polling day nears it will get worse I have no doubt. Also I imagine there will be tightening in the polls. For the largely unaffected objective viewers it will be interesting. For those who it will impact it may be hair raising.

First post in AH btw so ya know play nice.

Trudiha

haveringchick wrote: »

Im still not convinced that LGBT doesn't have a communist agenda.

What are your thoughts on us all being lizard people?

haveringchick

Grand_Rajnah wrote: »

Any personal opinion on the content of posters? Do you agree with their message, for example?

And do you have any proof the LGBT (any particular advocacy group, or are we just lumping them all together now?) are involved in communism in any way - I'd be very interested in reading any links you can provide.

No. No personal opinion. I can't see the relevance.of children to SSM, myself but if no campaigners see an angle there to promote their agenda, well then fair enough.
It was up to the yes campaign to find an angle on which to counter the "Nos" allegations. So far they don't appear to have nailed it. From what I can see anyway.
I think the LGBT/COMMUNISM thing stems from an argument I had with a man who we very persuasive about LGBT being very keen on abandoning all vestiges of religion from society and how this would be one of the tenets of communism.

haveringchick

Trudiha wrote: »

What are your thoughts on us all being lizard people?

Im very glad for you to come out as a lizard person and have no problem with your lizard ways as long as you continue to allow me to be a non lizard.

shruikan2553

haveringchick wrote: »

I think the LGBT/COMMUNISM thing stems from an argument I had with a man who we very persuasive about LGBT being very keen on abandoning all vestiges of religion from society and how this would be one of the tenets of communism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37OWL7AzvHo

Zaph

haveringchick wrote: »

I think the LGBT/COMMUNISM thing stems from an argument I had with a man who we very persuasive about LGBT being very keen on abandoning all vestiges of religion from society and how this would be one of the tenets of communism.

Lots of people, LGBT and otherwise, are very keen on abandoning all vestiges of religion from society. Many of these people feel that way because of the various scandals that the Catholic church has become embroiled in over the last few years, and many others have different reasons. Are you suggesting that all these people are communists?

Links234

haveringchick wrote: »

As you know life is cruel. It's tough. If I were to react every time my feelings were hurt I'd never get anything done.
Maybe you manage to avoid situations which may offend you but I can't.
Following your gut reaction is not always the best course of action.
The young people in that video appear not only equally intolerant to the forces behind the posters , they also appear sly in that they havnt the courage of their convictions to the degree where they are happy to be identified.
Bad move.

It appears as though you're trying to respond to a point that was never made in the first place.

One eyed Jack

haveringchick wrote: »

No. No personal opinion. I can't see the relevance.of children to SSM, myself but if no campaigners see an angle there to promote their agenda, well then fair enough.
It was up to the yes campaign to find an angle on which to counter the "Nos" allegations. So far they don't appear to have nailed it. From what I can see anyway.

Arguing against something which simply isn't worth entertaining would simply be a waste of their efforts IMO. I think it would be better if the yes campaign simply concentrate on informing people, rather than get bogged down in having to disprove lies and misinformation. I've seen the 'explanations' of their posters, and I don't think they have anyone convinced that wasn't voting against marriage equality already.

I think the LGBT/COMMUNISM thing stems from an argument I had with a man who we very persuasive about LGBT being very keen on abandoning all vestiges of religion from society and how this would be one of the tenets of communism.

The reason he seemed very "persuasive" though, is that you had that idea in your head already given that a few people in the LGBT community also want rid of religion from society. Correlation/causation fallacy. The marriage equality campaign to their credit haven't involved religion in the discussion at all, whereas David Quinn is practically chomping at the bit to try and avoid mentioning religion and coming off like the unhinged and hateful individual he actually is. A few minutes on google doesn't be long letting you know exactly who you're dealing with.

marienbad

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Familiar enough with it actually, and what these people are doing is indeed a refusal to comply with certain laws they consider unjust as a peaceful form of political protest. They're not interfering with people in tearing down posters.





How can you possibly make an unlikeable position which promotes discrimination, intolerance and misinformation any more likeable? I think you overestimate the influence of these campaigns upon people's opinions tbh.





Same again - you're overestimating their influence upon anyone. People aren't that stupid that they are so easily influenced by a poster campaign. They will have already formed their opinions long before there was ever a referendum.





I understand where you're coming from, but these are only a mere handful of people, and like I said to someone else already - most people don't have time to sit around on their holes all day watching YouTube videos and eyeballing what the other side are doing.

Most people understand exactly why people don't want to have those posters up every time they look out their window, or they walk outside their front gate, or they go to collect their children from school. They're disgusting.

I can't be held responsible though for the people that choose to tear down these posters, but I can't say I object to them doing it either.





Two minutes with a snips, I'm sure tearing down posters isn't a full-time job for these people either. They have plenty of time to do door-to-door canvassing in the meantime.





Nobody is denying anyone their civil rights. Nobody has the right to incite hatred among the general public, and that's exactly what these posters are doing, and just like I did with the YD abortion posters, I will make a complaint to Gardaí if I see these posters anywhere in my community.





Indeed.

As I said clueless .

One eyed Jack

haveringchick wrote: »

Im very glad for you to come out as a lizard person and have no problem with your lizard ways as long as you continue to allow me to be a non lizard.

Phew, I don't have to hide it any longer!


*licks eyebrows*

haveringchick

Trudiha wrote: »

What are your thoughts on us all being lizard people?

Im very glad for you to come out as a lizard person and have no problem with your lizard ways as long as you continue to allow me to be a non lizard.

Ave Sodalis

marienbad wrote: »

As I said clueless .

You know, for someone who's insisting on knowing the exact way to get the Yes side to win the referendum, you're doing a very poor job of getting your own point across...

One eyed Jack

marienbad wrote: »

As I said clueless .

You also said pointless, and yet here we are