How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

walshyn93

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's fcuking exhausting, and I can easily understand why people are getting frustrated and physically and mentally drained from it all, enough to feel angry enough to tear down posters trying to make out that they should be treated like crap. You would too if something made you angry enough in that moment.

This wasn't something someone did out of anger in the moment. It was organised, they had two rucksacks big enough to put posters in and something to cover their faces. Someone from outside of Ireland looking at this if they didn't know what the subject of the referendum was would see no difference between them and the Golden Dawn thugs who roam around trying to destroy democracy and stifle free speech.

Basically, the message this sends is that supporting equality doesn't make you a good person, so many people will now feel no compulsion to support equality.

And someone who tears down election posters because the person made them feel bad clearly has no principles, or at the very least doesn't have principles that are in line with liberal values.

marienbad

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're still ignoring context. sup_dude is asking why people are changing their voting preference on the basis of some people taking down posters that were put up by the no campaign?

It's a valid question to ask why are these people only changing their vote because of the actions of some people, and they're ignoring the content of the no posters that are being put up by the no campaign.


Me personally, I don't think these people were ever voting yes in the first place, and they're looking for any reason at all to say "ah no, you've put me off now, that's it, I'm voting no". They're actually that immature that they think anyone ever thought they were voting yes in the first place. They weren't, all they were doing was keeping quiet until they had some semblance of a reason to justify their own homophobia. That's exactly what their opinions are based on - an irrational fear of people on the basis of their sexual orientation.

As one poster put it earlier having been out canvassing - no voters were even surprised people who are LGBT are even allowed adopt in the first place. I know a good many people have changed their views on marriage equality thinking that "I have no problem with gay people getting married, but they shouldn't be allowed have children".

When I inform them that people who are LGBT have children naturally the same as anyone else, because their sexuality doesn't mean their reproductive organs don't function; then the person changes their stance almost immediately to "Oh well I didn't know that now, well in that case what do they want to be married for?", and it goes on, and on, and on, and at the end, you know they're just going to say they're voting no anyway!

It's fcuking exhausting, and I can easily understand why people are getting frustrated and physically and mentally drained from it all, enough to feel angry enough to tear down posters trying to make out that they should be treated like crap. You would too if something made you angry enough in that moment.

Even more ridiculous . There is no justification for defacing campaign literature . On top of everything else it is counter productive.

You are immature and naïve if you get annoyed at people for voting against what you believe . In a democracy people are entitled to do what they like with their vote and they don't have to justify it to you or anyone else.

You are entitled to campaign for what you believe in and those you disagree with have exactly the same rights . That is the only context.

Otherwise with comments like- ''It's fcuking exhausting, and I can easily understand why people are getting frustrated and physically and mentally drained from it all'' - you just come across as self righteous and condescending.

One eyed Jack

osarusan wrote: »

Anybody know where i can download some Yes posters - I'd especially like the Labour one

I'd say if you ask in this thread they might be able to point you in the right direction -



Where to buy Marriage Equality Merchandise?

Ave Sodalis

marienbad wrote: »

Even more ridiculous . There is no justification for defacing campaign literature . On top of everything else it is counter productive.

You are immature and naïve if you get annoyed at people for voting against what you believe . In a democracy people are entitled to do what they like with their vote and they don't have to justify it to you or anyone else.

You are entitled to campaign for what you believe in and those you disagree with have exactly the same rights . That is the only context.

Otherwise with comments like- ''It's fcuking exhausting, and I can easily understand why people are getting frustrated and physically and mentally drained from it all'' - you just come across as self righteous and condescending.

Nobody is trying to justify taking down the posters. In fact, it's been said repeatedly that nobody here agrees with it.

It's not getting annoyed at voting against what you believe in. It's getting annoyed at the lies and the nastiness.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

osarusan wrote: »

Anybody know where i can download some Yes posters - I'd especially like the Labour one

Not sure about that one in particular but http://www.equalityposters.ie/#/

One eyed Jack

marienbad wrote: »

Even more ridiculous . There is no justification for defacing campaign literature . On top of everything else it is counter productive.

You are immature and naïve if you get annoyed at people for voting against what you believe . In a democracy people are entitled to do what they like with their vote and they don't have to justify it to you or anyone else.

You are entitled to campaign for what you believe in and those you disagree with have exactly the same rights . That is the only context.

Otherwise with comments like- ''It's fcuking exhausting, and I can easily understand why people are getting frustrated and physically and mentally drained from it all'' - you just come across as self righteous and condescending.

Beam in your own eye there much?

You haven't even bothered to read the context of where sup_dudes original question came from in the first place, and secondly then you veered off into a condescending rant about... well, actually none of what you've written above had anything to do with my post you quoted either.

I'm not going to bother trying for a third time when chances are you won't bother to read this post either.

marienbad

sup_dude wrote: »

Nobody is trying to justify taking down the posters. In fact, it's been said repeatedly that nobody here agrees with it.

It's not getting annoyed at voting against what you believe in. It's getting annoyed at the lies and the nastiness.

What did you expect ? Welcome to the Majors .

marienbad

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Beam in your own eye there much?

You haven't even bothered to read the context of where sup_dudes original question came from in the first place, and secondly then you veered off into a condescending rant about... well, actually none of what you've written above had anything to do with my post you quoted either.

I'm not going to bother trying for a third time when chances are you won't bother to read this post either.

I read every post I reply to . There is no context to destroying election literature ! Why is that so difficult for you to understand ? There is no justification for it- ever . Free speech and expression is the cornerstone of democracy but you seem to have a problem with that .

Ave Sodalis

marienbad wrote: »

I read every post I reply to . There is no context to destroying election literature ! Why is that so difficult for you to understand ? There is no justification for it- ever . Free speech and expression is the cornerstone of democracy but you seem to have a problem with that .

But you didn't read the rest of the posts behind it. Like I said, nobody is trying to justify tearing down the posters. I'm trying to figure out why it's worse than the horridness that the No side are producing.

walshyn93

The desire to censor usually stems from a lack of confidence in the strength of your arguments, but in this case, based on the general demeanour and posture of the fascists in the video and their inability to articulate themselves I'd say the insecurity is more of a personal issue than anything reflective of the wider movement.

walshyn93

sup_dude wrote: »

But you didn't read the rest of the posts behind it. Like I said, nobody is trying to justify tearing down the posters. I'm trying to figure out why it's worse than the horridness that the No side are producing.

I've already explained why it's worse.

Democracy>feelings.

Democracy is even more important than individuals being held to account for their incorrect statements, which is why even idiots can vote.

puppieperson

Why is everyone so desperate to get married? its not that great really !!!

Ave Sodalis

walshyn93 wrote: »

I've already explained why it's worse.

Democracy>feelings.

Democracy is even more important than individuals being held to account for their incorrect statements, which is why even idiots can vote.

Everyone can vote. However, it's not just incorrect statements. I mean, like I said earlier in the day, have the No side any concept of the trauma they could cause? It's not just about hurt feelings, or being offended. I mean if some young teen commits suicide over being surrounded by the No side which is coming more out in the open, is this still just feelings?

K4t

puppieperson wrote: »

Why is everyone so desperate to get married? its not that great really !!!

They're not. They just want the right to get married. Technically a same sex marriage may never occur even if the referendum is passed. :P

sup_dude wrote: »

Everyone can vote. However, it's not just incorrect statements. I mean, like I said earlier in the day, have the No side any concept of the trauma they could cause? It's not just about hurt feelings, or being offended. I mean if some young teen commits suicide over being surrounded by the No side which is coming more out in the open, is this still just feelings?

Yes.

marienbad

sup_dude wrote: »

But you didn't read the rest of the posts behind it. Like I said, nobody is trying to justify tearing down the posters. I'm trying to figure out why it's worse than the horridness that the No side are producing.

Just because I don't agree with you dos'nt mean I didn't read your post , so please would you and one eyed jack stop saying it.

Since you need to be spoon fed a reason let me give you two - it is illegal and it is counter productive . It is allowing the No campaign to continue to promulgate the victim status .

As for the horridness of their campaign - grow up - what did you think was going to happen ? These people believe that are defending a higher good and the end justified the means . Lies , lawsuits, misinformation , bullying, poor me, insults , muddying the waters, whatever it takes they will use .

You are just allowing yourself to be distracted by it and losing your focus.

Ave Sodalis

marienbad wrote: »

Just because I don't agree with you dos'nt mean I didn't read your post , so please would you and one eyed jack stop saying it.

Since you need to be spoon fed a reason let me give you two - it is illegal and it is counter productive . It is allowing the No campaign to continue to promulgate the victim status .

As for the horridness of their campaign - grow up - what did you think was going to happen ? These people believe that are defending a higher good and the end justified the means . Lies , lawsuits, misinformation , bullying, poor me, insults , muddying the waters, whatever it takes they will use .

You are just allowing yourself to be distracted by it and losing your focus.

Posts*. As in the ones previous too.

I'm not asking why people shouldn't tear down posters. I'm asking why it's worse.

I knew it was going to happen. I'm asking why it's better than taking down posters.

One eyed Jack

walshyn93 wrote: »

This wasn't something someone did out of anger in the moment. It was organised, they had two rucksacks big enough to put posters in and something to cover their faces. Someone from outside of Ireland looking at this if they didn't know what the subject of the referendum was would see no difference between them and the Golden Dawn thugs who roam around trying to destroy democracy and stifle free speech.

How would they see that if as you said - they didn't know what this referendum was about? They wouldn't have any clue what it was about from the posters either, cos it sure as hell ain't about surrogacy! And that's still not accounting for the fact that if they couldn't read they'd just see people cleaning up unsightly litter (see? I can make up stupid shìt to support my argument too!).

Basically, the message this sends is that supporting equality doesn't make you a good person, so many people will now feel no compulsion to support equality.

Ehh, think you're overestimating how many people sit around on their holes all day watching YouTube, my own mother God bless her doesn't even know where to start if she's let near a computer! She was never supporting marriage equality in the first place so neither campaign effort would make much of a difference to her, she was never au fait with IT anyway but she'd sure as hell give David Quinn a run for his money if she was! She'd make him look positively amateur in comparison.

Highly articulate and intelligent woman, don't get me wrong, but bloody hell she has a way of reducing people to ashes. She ever learns how to use a computer though we're all fcuked, and I imagine it's the same for a lot of people who have absolutely no interest in the campaigns, they were always going to vote whatever way they were going to vote anyway, and the political campaigns are just the fancy window dressing.

And someone who tears down election posters because the person made them feel bad clearly has no principles, or at the very least doesn't have principles that are in line with liberal values.

I've got plenty of principles, and very conservative, right-wing principles at that (completely separate from my religious beliefs too!), and FWIW, I cannot hack liberal liberal or lefty-leaning shìte at all, but treating everyone equally in what's supposed to be a democratic society?

Yeah, I can get behind that alright, and I don't give a fiddlers what other labels or whatever way anyone else chooses to identify themselves, as long as they're not a bigger bollox than I am, we'll get along just dandy.

marienbad

sup_dude wrote: »

Posts*. As in the ones previous too.

I'm not asking why people shouldn't tear down posters. I'm asking why it's worse.

I knew it was going to happen. I'm asking why it's better than taking down posters.

One is a crime the other isn't .

Ave Sodalis

marienbad wrote: »

One is a crime the other isn't .

That doesn't explain it though.

Zen65

crockholm wrote: »

Probably No,Will be in the country at the time of the referendum too. Not too pushed on the matter either way,but it's probably best to leave things the way they are.

Because changing things has never been a great idea?

walshyn93

sup_dude wrote: »

Everyone can vote. However, it's not just incorrect statements. I mean, like I said earlier in the day, have the No side any concept of the trauma they could cause? It's not just about hurt feelings, or being offended. I mean if some young teen commits suicide over being surrounded by the No side which is coming more out in the open, is this still just feelings?

I highly doubt a teen is going to commit suicide over a few posters, especially today when there has never been more vocal support for gay people in the Irish media. I also highly doubt that seeing a pair of self-righteous tools tearing down posters is going to make them step away from the ledge either. As if they didn't know some people aren't homophobes.

Sure how do the victims of the IRA feel about Gerry Adam's face being plastered all over town? The answer is it doesn't matter, he has democratic rights and so do anti-marriage b***ts

marienbad

sup_dude wrote: »

That doesn't explain it though.

To you maybe . The other side believe the whole yes campaign is horrid . You can't seem to grasp that .

eviltwin

walshyn93 wrote: »

I highly doubt a teen is going to commit suicide over a few posters, especially today when there has never been more vocal support for gay people in the Irish media. I also highly doubt that seeing a pair of self-righteous tools tearing down posters is going to make them step away from the ledge either. As if they didn't know some people aren't homophobes.

Sure how do the victims of the IRA feel about Gerry Adam's face being plastered all over town? The answer is it doesn't matter, he has democratic rights and so do anti-marriage b***ts

One poster probably won't but a drawn out campaign of slurs against the gay community and who knows. I had my own gay teen ask me not to turn on the news shows in the car on the way home from school because it's messing with her head. I haven't seen these posters in our area but if they go up you can bet i will be up there taking them down.

One eyed Jack

walshyn93 wrote: »

I highly doubt a teen is going to commit suicide over a few posters, especially today when there has never been more vocal support for gay people in the Irish media. I also highly doubt that seeing a pair of self-righteous tools tearing down posters is going to make them step away from the ledge either. As if they didn't know some people aren't homophobes.

Sure how do the victims of the IRA feel about Gerry Adam's face being plastered all over town? The answer is it doesn't matter, he has democratic rights and so do anti-marriage b***ts

You and marien are still missing the point of sup_dude's inquiry walshy.

Nobody is saying these people are right or justified in tearing down the posters. sup_dude is asking how come people are saying they're all of a sudden going to vote "no" now because of people tearing down the posters, and they had no problem before with what is actually written on the posters that these people are tearing down?

Not sure how much clearer I can make that tbh.

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

One is a crime the other isn't .

As I have already said. If someone puts one of those posters on the lamppost directly outside my house I will take it down.

I will take it down because I will not have my grandchilden aged 8 and 5 - both of whom can read - upset at being told that their family of unmarried parents who do not live together, divorced maternal granddad (who is so estranged from his ex-wife that they have never met their maternal grandmother) and their two lesbian grannies is somehow less than ideal. They are two happy, innocent kids and I will not have them upset by manipulative lying point scoring.

If anyone wants to arrest me - go ahead!

Now - would anyone like to call me a fascist?

Bannasidhe

walshyn93 wrote: »

I highly doubt a teen is going to commit suicide over a few posters, especially today when there has never been more vocal support for gay people in the Irish media. I also highly doubt that seeing a pair of self-righteous tools tearing down posters is going to make them step away from the ledge either. As if they didn't know some people aren't homophobes.

Sure how do the victims of the IRA feel about Gerry Adam's face being plastered all over town? The answer is it doesn't matter, he has democratic rights and so do anti-marriage b***ts

You do like the old hyperbole don't you.

walshyn93

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How would they see that if as you said - they didn't know what this referendum was about? They wouldn't have any clue what it was about from the posters either, cos it sure as hell ain't about surrogacy! And that's still not accounting for the fact that if they couldn't read they'd just see people cleaning up unsightly litter (see? I can make up stupid shìt to support my argument too!).





Ehh, think you're overestimating how many people sit around on their holes all day watching YouTube, my own mother God bless her doesn't even know where to start if she's let near a computer! She was never supporting marriage equality in the first place so neither campaign effort would make much of a difference to her, she was never au fait with IT anyway but she'd sure as hell give David Quinn a run for his money if she was! She'd make him look positively amateur in comparison.

Highly articulate and intelligent woman, don't get me wrong, but bloody hell she has a way of reducing people to ashes. She ever learns how to use a computer though we're all fcuked, and I imagine it's the same for a lot of people who have absolutely no interest in the campaigns, they were always going to vote whatever way they were going to vote anyway, and the political campaigns are just the fancy window dressing.





I've got plenty of principles, and very conservative, right-wing principles at that (completely separate from my religious beliefs too!), and FWIW, I cannot hack liberal liberal or lefty-leaning shìte at all, but treating everyone equally in what's supposed to be a democratic society?

Yeah, I can get behind that alright, and I don't give a fiddlers what other labels or whatever way anyone else chooses to identify themselves, as long as they're not a bigger bollox than I am, we'll get along just dandy.

You are the king of nit-pickers.

1. Given that the word "vote" is in the title I think they'd have some idea what's going on. Given that the word "anti-democratic" is used. Did you think you were being clever there?

2. I'm sure your grandmother listens to the radio, no doubt this will be mentioned numerous times tomorrow across all frequencies. Again a terrible counter-point.

3. I started responded before I read the 3rd paragraph and beyond and now I'm just confused.

Shrap

walshyn93 wrote: »

I highly doubt a teen is going to commit suicide over a few posters, especially today when there has never been more vocal support for gay people in the Irish media. I also highly doubt that seeing a pair of self-righteous tools tearing down posters is going to make them step away from the ledge either. As if they didn't know some people aren't homophobes.

Sure how do the victims of the IRA feel about Gerry Adam's face being plastered all over town? The answer is it doesn't matter, he has democratic rights and so do anti-marriage b***ts

Fair missing the point there bud. Not quite the same thing at all really is it, to be presented with ...let's say...David Quinn's face and no message except vote for me and my ideals, or being presented with the message that "your family isn't good enough" and fcuk the damage caused to the kids by that message.

Let me ask you, which is better for kids? A named face that only adults can realistically associate with a particular message, or a out and out statement that their family is malfunctioning entity that doesn't work (according to them....and you have to explain to your kids why or why not)?

pl4ichjgy17zwd

Let's not forget posters have been torn down from both campaigns. It's a silly reason to base a vote on.

Shrap

walshyn93 wrote: »

3. I started responded before I read the 3rd paragraph and beyond and now I'm just confused.

Try my response above so, and take it from some real life kids who are in real life asking questions about the real life posters that are calling them on their real life families. NOW try thinking about your own response.