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Landlord Repairs Standoff
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22-01-2015 5:52pm#1Hi All,
Will keep it brief:
We're in the last year of a part 4 tenancy. We've repairs which are outstanding, and landlord has been fobbing us off with the excuse of no money to do it - some things as simple as fire blankets and smoke alarms to some more significant issues.
We've had the council out for a minimum standards inspection and there's a list of issues to be resolved - timeframe is likely to be 3 months to resolve. We've been chasing for months and months both verbally and in writing.
Landlord appears to be trying to ride it out until the end of the lease which is at the end of this year.
We have no interest in moving right now - market isn't the best and we like where we are and want to enjoy a last summer here before taking on the move.
Many people would throw the 28 days notice at the landlord at this point - and this is what the landlord wants. As then these "ridiculous" requests will go away - at least that's the theory, though the council will follow it all up anyway.
We intend to go to the PRTB now that the council inspection is done - though at the repairs end we have been told straight out today in front of the inspector that no repairs will be done until at the earliest the Summer time. We pay all rent etc on time and are solid tenants. Well, not any more as we are now "bad tenants" because we stood up for ourselves in writing and the formality has been considered offensive .
Anyone have any experience in this type of situation ?
What approach should we take given we want to stay, though expect the repair requests from both us and the council will be ignored ?0
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The first thing I'd so is spend ten quid on a couple of smoke alarms.
The rest presumably won't kill you.0 -
Not much you can do. He can just serve you with 16 weeks notice after the 4th year of your tenancy is up.0
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We're well aware that we are out at the end of this year, landlord has made no bones about that - we are a "problem tenant" now. We will leave aswell as the relationship has fallen apart. The landlord lives on site here.
2 Smoke alarms and fire blanket comes to about 50 quid, though that was more an example of how the landlord won't spend 50 quid as opposed to us. The landlord has no money, but we give over 10k per year in rent.
There are more significant problems which will cost a bit more than 50 quid but I won't get into it all here . We have 15 repair issues of which 12 are still unresolved - some of them lasting over 6 months.
The council has judged that the repairs do need to be done as they currently breach minimum standards, and will allow the landlord 3 months to resolve.
One is a heat related issue we've been dealing with (heat source broken and not enough heat) for example, and we are expected to go cold until the Summer comes along and it won't be a problem any more.
Yet, we pay our rent on time.
We pay for the service, we don't get it.
So what basis would we go to the PRTB for other than to clear our name ?
We've just lost our reference for the place we've been living for the past 4 years now and moving into a new house will be difficult in the current environment given the demands of landlords on perspective tenants now in this market.
It's been a lot of stress and we've lacked the "quiet enjoyment of our tenancy". Having studied a number of PRTB cases on their site it seems they do factor that in..
We are also considering employing a solicitor - it seems to make sense as it's hard to get consise advise that wouldn't end up backfiring - paying for the advice seems smart.
Are we really in a situation whereby the landlord can collect the rent, do nothing about repairs, and that's the end of it ? The amount of effort we've put into documenting / letters / simply dealing with the crap associated with this - hard pill to swallow that there is no light at the end of this tunnel :-(0 -
drone808 you may not seek legal advice here, so please contact a solr regarding any queries you may have regarding damages and costs.0
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Have you suggested having the cost of the repairs deducted from the rent at any point?0
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Morrigan - Understood. Have been dealing with Threshold and the Council. Intend to hire solicitor for legal advice.
Drumswan - Landlord would have none of that and we are not willing to play with the rental payment as it will give grounds for us to be thrown out with 28 days notice and we'd be in big trouble then. Landlord tried to have the place condemned today (it's a long way from being that bad) so is looking for any opportunity for us to slip up and get rid of us.
We have considered advising that we will begin to repair items ourselves as we have given due opportunity and seek those costs back via PRTB, but we would need to outlay cash flow in order to do that. It's certainly on the table now though as otherwise nothing will get done while we pay full price.
To be clear, I'm not seekinglegal advice from anyone here, but has anyone had similar experiences / standoffs ?
Also, anyone have a recommendation for a City Centre based tenancy law specialist solicitor ? ( Not a general solicitor who's done a handful of cases, but one who has done a chunk of practice in this area )0 -
City Centre where? Dublin?
It seems like a very odd route to go down. Fix the immediate issues such as smoke and CO2 (if needed) detectors and withhold them from the rent. Do only what the council have said what needs doing.
Live with the less urgent things.
I think you've got to the point where you're on a crusade. You need to take a step back and work out what's best for you financially.0 -
I presume you're on a fixed term contract not part IV as you mentioned at start otherwise you'd give the required notice and leave. Fixed term you can try to assign remainder of lease. You say landlord lives on site so are you actually a tenant or a leasee in which case you have no rights.
You have done all you can legally apart from reassignment. Landlord has 3 months to bring house up to standard. I'm not sure he has done anything illegal once he meets the requirements. You say not enough heat but that can be subjective, maybe provide more detail on what you mean? What are the other issues?
Why not just leave and a radicle your deposit? If you don't know what grinds to go to PRTB maybe there aren't any. Read your lease and the PRTB site. Don't employ a solicitor as that's a waste of time and money. No legal rep is needed for PRTB. Talk to threshold but to be honest their advice isn't worth the paper it's written on.0 -
Its really up to the Landlord now, if he wants you out, he just wont carry out the repairs, and be served with a notice prohibiting him from renting, whereby he will have grounds to serve you with notice.
You, or no one else can make him carry out the repairs. I can't see how the PRTB can help unless he retains your deposit.0 -
@MarkAnthony
Not city centre - out in the countryside outside north dublin.
What's the odd bit ?
Rent a house - repairs needed - request they be done - not done - go to Prtb.
Is this better:
Rent a house -repairs needed - request they be done - not done - whatever.
It certainly is becoming a crusade - to stand up for ourselves as we always let things slide like this in life - one of the goals was to see something like this through as adults and not back down like scared children all the time. I really don't see the sense in taking a sedated approach in life as you essentially give money away to people and don't get what you pay for in general as it's a way of living in general. There's plenty of us on this island who have walked away from a shop till where the change was a 20 or 40 cents off by mistake, noticed and said nothing. There are also plenty who go back. I've certainly let things like this slip in life, and to be honest I work hard enough for the money I earn rather than to let someone else just scam me out of it and walk away. Do you get me ?
@Baby - we are in year 4 of 4 consequetive 12 month contracts and are automatically entitled to part 4 status as well as 12 month individual status. Besides, that doesn't really mean much in this situation - as it doesn't come into play. Needless to say we've payed over 30k so far, and it will be 40k by the end of this year. The notice is 12 weeks, and that will be dealt with before the contract expires later in the year by both parties on the same day no doubt !
We are not a lessee. We are full tennants in a full property.
Regarding the heating, I am going to pay a plumber to come out and measure the exacts of the heating output adaquacy of the radiator in relation to the space concerned there. That will hopefully bring some actual measurements to that discussion.
We would just leave, if there were a plethora of choices of places to go. There are not. We've been renting 9 years now and have never seen the market like it is now. No more spoilt for choice. We also now have no reference from our landlord of the last 4 years. Not so easy to leave. A PRTB judgement in our favour might go some way to negating that reference issue. Well, it might be better than either no reference at all, or a negative reference.
Rather not get into more details on issues - but there's a spread of them - 15 in total, 12 still unresolved. County council inspector agress with minimum standards related ones.
Threshold advised to go to prtb, council advised to go to prtb. It seems like the only logical route other than doing absolutely nothing, and as said above, I'm tired of doing nothing.
I know no legal rep is required for the PRTB, but I want someone to study my documentation with me and come up with a sound legal approach to the process. I've never done it before, and don't want to make mistakes when I could have forseen them with the correct advice.
Again, not looking for legal advice here persay - but tales of anyone elses experiences in a similar situation would be interesting.
Easy thing to do is walk away. Thanks for advises so far guys ;-)0 -
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MarkAnthony wrote: »Fix the immediate issues such as smoke and CO2 (if needed) detectors and withhold them from the rent. .
Ps: If we did this the Landlord could serve us with 28 days eviction notice for breach of contract. I've been advised that by threshold multiple times as it was a strategy before Christmas. A Solicitor i spoke on the phone with today also said the same thing.0 -
Its really up to the Landlord now, if he wants you out, he just wont carry out the repairs, and be served with a notice prohibiting him from renting, whereby he will have grounds to serve you with notice.
There might be some value in that comment. However, no eviction notice can be carried out once there is a live PRTB case in the works regardless of the reason. In this case it may be prudent to see if the landlord responds to the Councils demands. Makes the solicitor route look better already.
Thanks - nice catch.0 -
Drone: Get 2 working smoke alarms and if needs be a CO alarm tomorrow. You are right to be annoyed that basic repairs have not been carried out but for heaven's sake, protect your family from fire and CO leaks (we can assume your boiler hasn't been serviced recently either). Do NOT wait for the LL to supply these on principle. It is simply not worth your and your family's lives. You can always take these items with you when you leave.0
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@MarkAnthony
Not city centre - out in the countryside outside north dublin.
What's the odd bit ?
Rent a house - repairs needed - request they be done - not done - go to Prtb.
Is this better:
Rent a house -repairs needed - request they be done - not done - whatever.
It certainly is becoming a crusade - to stand up for ourselves as we always let things slide like this in life - one of the goals was to see something like this through as adults and not back down like scared children all the time. I really don't see the sense in taking a sedated approach in life as you essentially give money away to people and don't get what you pay for in general as it's a way of living in general. There's plenty of us on this island who have walked away from a shop till where the change was a 20 or 40 cents off by mistake, noticed and said nothing. There are also plenty who go back. I've certainly let things like this slip in life, and to be honest I work hard enough for the money I earn rather than to let someone else just scam me out of it and walk away. Do you get me ?
@Baby - we are in year 4 of 4 consequetive 12 month contracts and are automatically entitled to part 4 status as well as 12 month individual status. Besides, that doesn't really mean much in this situation - as it doesn't come into play. Needless to say we've payed over 30k so far, and it will be 40k by the end of this year. The notice is 12 weeks, and that will be dealt with before the contract expires later in the year by both parties on the same day no doubt !
We are not a lessee. We are full tennants in a full property.
Regarding the heating, I am going to pay a plumber to come out and measure the exacts of the heating output adaquacy of the radiator in relation to the space concerned there. That will hopefully bring some actual measurements to that discussion.
We would just leave, if there were a plethora of choices of places to go. There are not. We've been renting 9 years now and have never seen the market like it is now. No more spoilt for choice. We also now have no reference from our landlord of the last 4 years. Not so easy to leave. A PRTB judgement in our favour might go some way to negating that reference issue. Well, it might be better than either no reference at all, or a negative reference.
Rather not get into more details on issues - but there's a spread of them - 15 in total, 12 still unresolved. County council inspector agress with minimum standards related ones.
Threshold advised to go to prtb, council advised to go to prtb. It seems like the only logical route other than doing absolutely nothing, and as said above, I'm tired of doing nothing.
I know no legal rep is required for the PRTB, but I want someone to study my documentation with me and come up with a sound legal approach to the process. I've never done it before, and don't want to make mistakes when I could have forseen them with the correct advice.
Again, not looking for legal advice here persay - but tales of anyone elses experiences in a similar situation would be interesting.
Easy thing to do is walk away. Thanks for advises so far guys ;-)
When is the fixed term up?
You've paid 30k but you paid for a roof over your head...whether it's this place or somewhere else. What I should ask really is why did you sign another 12 month contract if you weren't happy or are these problems since you signed?
You can get all the legal advice you like but it will count for nothing with the prtb..they are there to stop tenancy disputes clogging up the courts.
Assign the lease or just leave....life is too short...it's not about letting someone get away with something...it's about being mature..accepting the situation and moving on. The council will see the minimum standard changes are out throught..that's not your job.0 -
There might be some value in that comment. However, no eviction notice can be carried out once there is a live PRTB case in the works regardless of the reason. In this case it may be prudent to see if the landlord responds to the Councils demands. Makes the solicitor route look better already.
Thanks - nice catch.
You sure? My understanding is a prohibition notice is final and overrides that. Caused a stir when the bedsit legislation was being implemented iirc.0 -
Drone: Get 2 working smoke alarms and if needs be a CO alarm tomorrow. You are right to be annoyed that basic repairs have not been carried out but for heaven's sake, protect your family from fire and CO leaks (we can assume your boiler hasn't been serviced recently either). Do NOT wait for the LL to supply these on principle. It is simply not worth your and your family's lives. You can always take these items with you when you leave.
I will - thanks. It was more an example of the level of basic neglect we are dealing with.
Yes The Boiler maintenance and service is on the list of issues. 10 bonus points to you ;-D0 -
You sure? My understanding is a prohibition notice is final and overrides that. Caused a stir when the bedsit legislation was being implemented iirc.
I will need to get legal advice on that one for sure - I don't know. That was the impression I was under. I will also check with the council myself.0 -
@MarkAnthony
Not city centre - out in the countryside outside north dublin.
What's the odd bit ?
Rent a house - repairs needed - request they be done - not done - go to Prtb.
Is this better:
Rent a house -repairs needed - request they be done - not done - whatever.
It certainly is becoming a crusade - to stand up for ourselves as we always let things slide like this in life - one of the goals was to see something like this through as adults and not back down like scared children all the time. I really don't see the sense in taking a sedated approach in life as you essentially give money away to people and don't get what you pay for in general as it's a way of living in general. There's plenty of us on this island who have walked away from a shop till where the change was a 20 or 40 cents off by mistake, noticed and said nothing. There are also plenty who go back. I've certainly let things like this slip in life, and to be honest I work hard enough for the money I earn rather than to let someone else just scam me out of it and walk away. Do you get me ?
Frankly no I don't get you. If I go into a shop and they short change me I bring it up. If they tell me to feck off I leave and never return. I could, of course hire a solicitor at the cost of several hundred euro but how does that make any sense? Vote with your feet.Ps: If we did this the Landlord could serve us with 28 days eviction notice for breach of contract. I've been advised that by threshold multiple times as it was a strategy before Christmas. A Solicitor i spoke on the phone with today also said the same thing.
I'm not going to contradict the advice of a solicitor but the RTA 2004 sets out in clear terms that a tenant can recover vouched expenses where the landlord fails to make necessary repairs.
A crusade is fine, you'd be much better off spending the significant time, effort and money attempting to make a more general change in the law but how you spend your time is entirely a matter for yourself. It's very possible that the LL is making nothing off the property in relation to cash profit, is this an excuse to not live up to their obligations? No; is it a bar to you recovering any meaningful damages? Yes.
As indicated it would seem a much more sensible solution to simply move. You should always pick your battles.0 -
If council says it's not up to standard aren't substantial repairs a valid reason to remove the tenant.
Have these issues just poped up now ie, rad not big enough to heat room should have been an issue for the last three years same with alarms and fire blankets, what caused the kick off now are some of them vindictive due to some other falling out hence he doesn't want to do it till you are gone.
Just seems all these isssues should have been a problem from day one.0 -
Can you point me to where that is stated as I've been told different things about this aswell but that's the advice I was given.MarkAnthony wrote: »I'm not going to contradict the advice of a solicitor but the RTA 2004 sets out in clear terms that a tenant can recover vouched expenses where the landlord fails to make necessary repairs.MarkAnthony wrote: »As indicated it would seem a much more sensible solution to simply move. You should always pick your battles.
As stated, it's not that simple. I am picking my battle - and this is one of them.0 -
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If council says it's not up to standard aren't substantial repairs a valid reason to remove the tenant.
Have these issues just poped up now ie, rad not big enough to heat room should have been an issue for the last three years same with alarms and fire blankets, what caused the kick off now are some of them vindictive due to some other falling out hence he doesn't want to do it till you are gone.
Just seems all these isssues should have been a problem from day one.
Hi Macyard,
They have mounted up. Agreement was made to resolve them all before last signing - big discussion, all promises, glass of wine - all that nicey nicey smiley smiley. 8 weeks later, nothing. Pushed the issue then little bit verbally -3 weeks later, nothing. Pushed a bit harder verbally, as in became calmly insistant. Got instant defensiveness - "Oh then you should move out". Moved to writing then as verbal discussions were getting messy and no record of what landlord was saying. Now we are bad tenants. All has been fully documented now for the past 4 months.
Council has stated that these are not HUGE repairs, but they add up as a group as they have mounted up and were left stringing along. We would not need to move out to carry out repairs.
As I said in the title - it's a standoff !0 -
Can you point me to where that is stated as I've been told different things about this aswell but that's the advice I was given.
RTA 2004 Section 12 specifically subsection (1)g. One can argue that there has to be reimbursement and withholding is resorting to self-help. There are counter arguments but defer to a solicitor.
Of note is that Section 14 does not enumerate making repairs as a ground for the prohibition of penalties.
As I say I'm not attempting to override the advice of a properly briefed solicitor, just make sure they are that - properly briefed.As stated, it's not that simple. I am picking my battle - and this is one of them.
Entirely a matter for yourself but you need to make it that simple in relation to costing it out. Is it cheaper to hire a solicitor and remain given the limited time you have left in the place or is it simply cheaper to move now. Everything else spending money to further a point. Simply put try and keep it business rather than personal.0 -
MarkAnthony wrote: »Entirely a matter for yourself but you need to make it that simple in relation to costing it out. Is it cheaper to hire a solicitor and remain given the limited time you have left in the place or is it simply cheaper to move now. Everything else spending money to further a point. Simply put try and keep it business rather than personal.
I certainly will. Moving restriction is more due to the selection of new properties as opposed to cost. We have been looking at daft reguarly, and are struggling to find something. The market has changed a LOT since we came into this place a few years ago.
We also have the problem now of no reference - and a guaranteed bad reference if there is a phone call made (that was said to us).0 -
Hi Macyard,
They have mounted up. Agreement was made to resolve them all before last signing - big discussion, all promises, glass of wine - all that nicey nicey smiley smiley. 8 weeks later, nothing. Pushed the issue then little bit verbally -3 weeks later, nothing. Pushed a bit harder verbally, as in became calmly insistant. Got instant defensiveness - "Oh then you should move out". Moved to writing then as verbal discussions were getting messy and no record of what landlord was saying. Now we are bad tenants. All has been fully documented now for the past 4 months.
Council has stated that these are not HUGE repairs, but they add up as a group as they have mounted up and were left stringing along. We would not need to move out to carry out repairs.
As I said in the title - it's a standoff !
Are they all essential or are some frivolous, he might have no money, rent cover just mortage and cannot do all the repairs and if you pushed something frivolous it can escalate quickly.
Ask maybe to fix the few very essentials you agree to move out in 2 months if he gives a good reference .0 -
MarkAnthony wrote: »RTA 2004 Section 12 specifically subsection (1)g. One can argue that there has to be reimbursement and withholding is resorting to self-help. There are counter arguments but defer to a solicitor.
The key here I see is this :
"reimburse the tenant in respect of "
That means the tenant advises of the intention to carry out repairs in writing, get's quotes etc, get's receipts, and then presents to landlord for payment.
Deducting it out of the rent is a whole different matter.
This very clause is one we have been considering - and it would be up to the PRTB to then mandate the reimbursement to us in respect of the receipts.
You can be damn sure this landlord wouldn't do it willingly regardless of the legislation !
But like you said - a properly briefed solicitor - one with a lot of experience in this area as opposed to one who has handled a few cases. The experience would mean they would get right to the core within reasonable time and effectively therefore keeping costs down.
Finding one seems a bit difficult. Threshold wouldn't recommend anyone themselves when we asked them if they had anyone they use reguarly. Perhaps we can find a trace of who is reguarly representing Threshold through some documents online.......the hunt continues....0 -
Are they all essential or are some frivolous, he might have no money, rent cover just mortage and cannot do all the repairs and if you pushed something frivolous it can escalate quickly.
Ask maybe to fix the few very essentials you agree to move out in 2 months if he gives a good reference .
Many are essentials - some are annoying inconvieniences which cause daily hassel. No mortgate - owned outright. Claiming no money. Except the 10k a year we pay for starters, and then theres the other tenants.......
We asked for the essentials and proposed an agreement exactly like that - good reference enables us to move out quicker so will you give us one. Landlord said that they couldn't in "good conscience" give us a good reference and pass us "problem tenants" on to some other landlord after we stuck it to them in writing. There are no other grounds whatsoever. Clearly the spite for us standing up to them clouded their ability to see they could have actually helped us go quicker which is their desired result. We then retreated again.
So as it stands, no reference. And a guaranteed bad one if we are asked to give phone number by new landlord/agent.
With the sparse number of properties out there, we are high risk for finding a suitable one eventually, and loosing it on these grounds.0 -
Many are essentials - some are annoying inconvieniences which cause daily hassel. No mortgate - owned outright. Claiming no money. Except the 10k a year we pay for starters, and then theres the other tenants.......
We asked for the essentials and proposed an agreement exactly like that - good reference enables us to move out quicker so will you give us one. Landlord said that they couldn't in "good conscience" give us a good reference and pass us "problem tenants" on to some other landlord after we stuck it to them in writing. There are no other grounds whatsoever. Clearly the spite for us standing up to them clouded their ability to see they could have actually helped us go quicker which is their desired result. We then retreated again.
So as it stands, no reference. And a guaranteed bad one if we are asked to give phone number by new landlord/agent.
With the sparse number of properties out there, we are high risk for finding a suitable one eventually, and loosing it on these grounds.
Other tenants? Do you rent the whole house or a room in the house. It's pretty wierd he wants you gone but won't make it easy for you to go, what kicked off the main thing the escalated this far0 -
I certainly will. Moving restriction is more due to the selection of new properties as opposed to cost. We have been looking at daft reguarly, and are struggling to find something. The market has changed a LOT since we came into this place a few years ago.
We also have the problem now of no reference - and a guaranteed bad reference if there is a phone call made (that was said to us).
To pick up on this, much like an unfair dismissal claim I'd be very dubious about every finding someone else to take me on. Not fair, not right but a practical reality.The key here I see is this :
"reimburse the tenant in respect of "
That means the tenant advises of the intention to carry out repairs in writing, get's quotes etc, get's receipts, and then presents to landlord for payment.
Deducting it out of the rent is a whole different matter.
Not really but you are, of course, wise to play it safe. As for documenting what you've done you'll need to be doing that anyway if this 'goes legal'.But like you said - a properly briefed solicitor - one with a lot of experience in this area as opposed to one who has handled a few cases. The experience would mean they would get right to the core within reasonable time and effectively therefore keeping costs down.
Finding one seems a bit difficult. Threshold wouldn't recommend anyone themselves when we asked them if they had anyone they use reguarly. Perhaps we can find a trace of who is reguarly representing Threshold through some documents online.......the hunt continues....
Any interaction with the legal process, not matter how experienced the lawyers used, is going to be a lengthy and expensive process. One IIRC you are barred from engaging in until the PRTB have been engaged. I'm open to correction on this but I think what you'd have to do is engage with the PRTB, appeal to the PRTB (both of which you cannot recover legal costs for) and then judicially review the decision of the PRTB.
Again I'm very shaky here but I think that's a matter for the High Court and will probably mean engaging a couple of barristers if you're looking for experienced counsel in this matter. The fact is if I am right on the procedure (which I could be wrong) there isn't going to be anyone experienced in similar cases as no one would take one. Of course you'll have no issue finding barristers experienced in JR cases.
You can probably disregard most of that other than to ask your solicitor what the legal process is in relation to this. If I'm wrong you can have a little chuckle at my expense with your solicitor. If I'm right make sure he/she explains the cost implications fully.0 -
If you make a claim with the PRTB and look for compensation for "services paid for but not received" and/or "property not up to standard" and get an adjudication in your favour what will happen? the landlord has no money, so you are not going to get any compensation nor repairs as the landlord is likely to just sell up, even if he is in negative equity.0
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Other tenants? Do you rent the whole house or a room in the house. It's pretty wierd he wants you gone but won't make it easy for you to go, what kicked off the main thing the escalated this far
Large old period home type property - multiple courtyards, annexes etc etc
What kicked it off was the day I said that I wasn't willing to accept that no repairs would be scheduled and done after all our agreements and waiting 2 months for nothing to happen after resigning the lease. Then subsequently our first letter, which was typical legaleese looking stuff, was apparently "offensive" and really seemed to have flipped a switch.
The real reason: We stood up for ourselves and stopped backing down.
The cheek of the filthy peasants out the back.........0
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