Dead van battery?

kelbal

Hi Guys,
I'm suspecting my van battery has gone caput, but just want to run it by some of you first. Its a 10 year old vehicle. I've had it 3 years - not sure if its still the original battery. It's been perfect for the last few years, not a spot of trouble. But in the last few weeks it won't start. Even on an overnight trip to Wicklow (100km), it wouldn't start the next morning, this was right before Christmas, cold evening.
When I returned from the trip (after being jumped), the battery read 12.6V in driveway, but this has dropped to 12.1V over the last month while laid up. Just tried starting now, dead as a dodo. The alternator is fine - battery was reading 14.4V while driving. My suspicion is that the recent cold weather has killed it, and there's a cell gone or something. But I'm afraid maybe there's some other issue draining the battery, and a new battery will have the same issues?
Is there anything I should be aware of, or is it safe to assume the battery is dead?

thanks

Batteries always die in the Winter, reduced capacity with weather.
12.1V is too low alright, maybe weak cell. Cold doesn't kill it, just reduces the cranking amps, cranking it flat kills it.
You can check the cell voltages to confirm, but you'll be contaminating the electrolyte so I only do it on a known troublemaker.

Take it out of the van/circuit and charge it, disconnect the charger leave it a day. If it won't hold at least 12.3v then scrap it..

Most batteries have production date serials stamped on them if you are curious.

Have you got a multimeter? You can check the ghost load if you set it to amps in series. Above 50mA is a serious drain.

piuswal

I checked my battery about a week - left it too long - and it was below 12 volts .
Spent hours today taking it out - a Hymer T652CL - had to remove seat etc

Have it charging inhouse now - hope it recovers

thanks for the advice how to procede Sir L

kelbal

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Have you got a multimeter? You can check the ghost load if you set it to amps in series. Above 50mA is a serious drain.

Am I right in saying the correct procedure is to have the battery in situ, disconnect the -ve lead, put the multimeter +ve to the battery +ve, and the multimeter -ve to the disconnected -ve lead (not the -ve battery). Then with multimeter set to DC current, see whats there?

correction - I think I disconnect the -ve lead, and connect the terminals between the -ve lead and the -ve battery terminal.

thanks

kelbal

kelbal wrote: »

Am I right in saying the correct procedure is to have the battery in situ, disconnect the -ve lead, put the multimeter +ve to the battery +ve, and the multimeter -ve to the disconnected -ve lead (not the -ve battery). Then with multimeter set to DC current, see whats there?

Um.. no that's an open circuit and the meter would be in parallel not series.

...the correct procedure is to have the battery in situ, disconnect the battery +ve lead, put the multimeter +ve to the battery +ve, and the multimeter -ve to the disconnected battery +ve lead). Then with multimeter set to DC current, see whats there?

And set the meter to amps (A) or milliAmp (mA), not microAmps (µA).

Keys out of the ignition (sorry for stating the obvious).

If you find anything of note pull fuses until it drops and then see what the fuse is attached to.

kelbal

thanks Liam, had spotted the flawed logic alright and edited my post.

I connected the red multimeter lead to the 10A port, and set the dial to 10DC. Then when I run the test I'm getting 0.05 - so 50mA I assume. I guess this is within an acceptable range??

Yeah 50mA.
Well it's high, but not worth getting upset about unless you're a pedant like me about these things...I think mine is higher iirc, but I'm putting in a split charger today soon as.

My deep-cycle bank is ~10mA idle.

The most frequent offender is the radio, after that analogue clocks, pull the fuses to see if you wish.

If you want to leave it at 50mA then assuming a 80Ah battery with 50% charge needed to crank = 40 / 24 * 0.05 = 30 days to 50% DOD not accounting for self discharge or de-rating, or reduced discharge curve.

Charge/drive it every week/fortnight it'll be grand or fix it.

piuswal

My charger gives me the option of charging;

1. 12V lead/acid with capacity less than 14Ah (14.4V/0.8A)

2, Capacity greater than 14Ah under normal conditions (14.4V/3.8A)


3. Capacity greater than 14Ah under cold conditions (14.7V/3.8A)


My battery is a Ford Siver Calcium 80Ah. 700 A EN

How do I know which of the above categories it is?

thanks in anticipation

14.4V @ 3.8A. Under normal circumstances.
Seeing as that's what your alternator is putting out.

But seeing as it's probably a bit sulphated 14.7V would be a sensible choice. Maybe check the water levels too, if you think it's worth saving.

kelbal

took it to my motor factors and 2 of the cells were bubbling away when tested, so its shot, new battery for €90

14.4V as a regime is to prevent water loss by slower charging.
14.7V is faster and you may need to replace water every few months. Definitely need to check it often, not as easy with sealed batteries.

I'm a fan of 14.8V myself. Keeps the sulphates in line, reduces charge time. I'll eat my words if I buckle my plates down the road.

kelbal

kelbal wrote: »

took it to my motor factors and 2 of the cells were bubbling away when tested

That's not a very scientific test. Cells bubble most days.
I reckon it was a goner anyways.

kelbal wrote: »

...so its shot, new battery for €90

€0.50 a kilo fer scrap lead

kelbal

Just noticed something - not sure whether to be concerned or not.

I have not installed the new van battery yet, its still in the house, and I was just out in the MH to get something. I noticed that the clock still displays, although it had reset to 0:00 when the van battery was disconnected yesterday. And the cab light and the central locking still works.

If I half turn the key in the ignition and see if the CD player will work, it doesn't, and I get flickering displays on the dash. Obviously the power must be drawing from the leisure battery but its as if there is some sort of limit as to how much power is being drawn.

I would have thought this shouldn't be happening, the leisure battery shouldn't be supplying the van electrics at all?

Interesting.
The clock and central locking may have their own back-up coin batteries.
Disconnect the leisure to find out.

Could be a voltage sensing relay that is dropping out when you light the glow plugs.
With both batteries disconnected check for continuity between both +ives with everything off, if it's sophisticated electronics at work a negative value won't mean much here.

kelbal

Actually - it has nothing to do with the leisure battery, only happens when connecting to mains. When I'm plugged in, there's 13.3V in the cab (I see this with one of those voltmeters in the cigarette port), this is why there's a cab light & clock. I'm guessing this is an intentional design, as a means of charging the van battery when plugged in.

Well floating it at least.
Higher end chargers work in supply mode without the battery.

Morgan The Moon

kelbal wrote: »

Actually - it has nothing to do with the leisure battery, only happens when connecting to mains. When I'm plugged in, there's 13.3V in the cab (I see this with one of those voltmeters in the cigarette port), this is why there's a cab light & clock. I'm guessing this is an intentional design, as a means of charging the van battery when plugged in.

Hi Kelbal,
When your plugged in to mains, do you have a switch to turn on the charger. I.E. is the voltage your measuring in the cab coming from the on board habitation PSU, (power supply unit) or the battery charger ? Is there a separate switching option for charging your Engine battery ? Is the "house" habitation battery charging automatically or do you have to switch it on.

If as Liam suggests your Engine battery is disconnected, and you disconnect your "house" habitation battery, your plugged into the mains and you still have voltage in the cab area. Check what voltage you have or haven't on your battery disconnected cables. If you have a voltage there, and you have not got a switch on your mains charger, you may a have relay problem. If there is not a switch to switch on the charger to charge your engine battery.

Often there is a relay that pulls in when the engine is running, it is normally fed from the alternator. I.E. engine is running, relay is coil is energised, switching contacts connect the alternator to the engine battery and through the relay to your "house" habitation battery.

In your original post you said your battery was O.K. after a run. Was your "house" habitation battery used a fair bit ? If yes ! consider 100 k's drive would not have charged both sets in the winter to full capacity. If your batteries are not a matching set, I.E. same amp hr rating and unfortunately same manufacture and same age there is an imbalance.

The weakest battery will "rob" discharge power from the better battery. This often shows up as a problem more in the winter months. So after you went out on a run if the engine battery was fully charged or visa-versa, after a lay up period one battery could have drained the other. If you have a relay / connection problem.

If the relay or switching described above is faulty or of a poor quality, the engine battery and the "house" habitation battery may not be electrically separated when your engine is switched off. Check to see if the relay has failed, contacts "welding together" can often happen. You can test this with your metre.

If it is a switch, check if the contacts have not welded in the switch.

Your "old" Engine battery that you have removed, try and get it charged with a CTec. Often in the winter months excessive sulphation of the plates can effect the charging ability. A decent charger will normally sort that. Unfortunately most chargers fitted in house of "campers" will not get to the 15v "ping" needed to break through the sulphate layer deposited on the plates.

As a general rule : every degree of temperature drop will effect your battery efficiency by 1% Battery amp hr rating and cranking ratings are often calculated at 20 deg's C ambient. Most batteries if your lucky have an efficiency of 80% of the rating implied by the manufactures. So take a 120 Amp Hr Rated, - 20% = 96 Amp Hr. - 20% for temp drop = 78.8 Amp Hr. Take into account age deficiency, ie you said you have the van 3 yr's. It may be revived but probably it can be kept as an emergency spare for your car ?

Hope the above is of some help! What camper is it ? what is the battery rating engine ? Habitation ?



Morg

Battery efficiency only applies to the energy lost when charging. They do have varying efficiencies for different levels of discharge but it's more capacity for lesser discharge and lesser capacity for greater discharge.
I'm a bit sceptical about desulphators myself. I've never seen any evidence they work. I'd also wonder if pulsed charging isn't knocking active material into the ether.
Temperature compensated charging is pretty important, nevermind the ping, my set will sit at ~15.2V absorption for hours on a good charger in the cold. It's more internal resistance than sulphates that require this, although sulphates do add resistance by reducing plate surface area.

Morgan The Moon

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Battery efficiency only applies to the energy lost when charging. They do have varying efficiencies for different levels of discharge but it's more capacity for lesser discharge and lesser capacity for greater discharge.
I'm a bit sceptical about desulphators myself. I've never seen any evidence they work. I'd also wonder if pulsed charging isn't knocking active material into the ether.
Temperature compensated charging is pretty important, nevermind the ping, my set will sit at ~15.2V absorption for hours on a good charger in the cold. It's more internal resistance than sulphates that require this, although sulphates do add resistance by reducing plate surface area.

Hi Liam,
Efficiency as defined in many dictionary's : able,capable,competent,effective,energetic,powerful,etc,etc.

You are of course correct as to the measurement of difference with regard to sensible pragmatic applied energy.

De-sulphates ! In the form of battery acid additives, many maintenance companies use these when servicing battery sets that are installed to start emergency generators. Hospitals etc.

Chargers that affectively de-sulphate , many maintenance companies use these when servicing battery sets that are installed to start emergency generators. Hospitals etc.

In general motorhomes, campers etc. The "on board" fitted chargers are operating at 13.8v for a safety reason. To enable the manufactures to comply with regulations with regard to reducing the risk of explosion etc. The batteries are therefore predestined to early failure, as you know, sulphation is virtually impossible to eradicate. No matter what maintenance charging regime is in practice.



Morg

Kevin McCloud

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Discharge gently to low DOD 10% - 20% @ C100, recharge fully every 5 days to weekly at 14.7v with low current (< 5% C20 rate), use a temperature compensating charger preferably PV, don't believe what a charger, or meter, or flashing LED tells you, it's not charged until all the sulphates are recombined which is the same specific gravity as the day you bought it, replace water as needed, equalise if needed (deviation of 0.030 specific gravity between cells), cycle to 40% DOD once a month to prevent acid stratification. Do all this and I'd give you nearly a decade daily use on semi-tractions.
Not that I do all that all the time, life will have us compromise.

Who in the name of god has the time to be doing this?

Morgan The Moon

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

Most batteries if your lucky have an efficiency of 80% of the rating implied by the manufactures. So take a 120 Amp Hr Rated, - 20% = 96 Amp Hr

Not so. It's 120Ah as rated but takes ~144Ah to charge.

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

De-sulphates !....Chargers that affectively de-sulphate , many maintenance companies use these when servicing battery sets that are installed to start emergency generators. Hospitals etc.

And I'd love to see evidence they do more good than harm.

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

In general motorhomes, campers etc. The "on board" fitted chargers are operating at 13.8v for a safety reason. To enable the manufactures to comply with regulations with regard to reducing the risk of explosion etc.

Here I was thinking they cheap out on the black magic box, and are doing their best to keep campers tethered to regular sites.
I wonder what sailors say about those safety regulations.

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

...sulphation is virtually impossible to eradicate. No matter what maintenance charging regime is in practice.

Yup they're consumables...

Don't buy a sealed "maintenance free" one. Get a genuine deep cycle. Weight means more than stickers and slogans.
Discharge gently to low DOD 10% - 20% @ C100, recharge fully every 5 days to weekly at 14.7v with low current (< 5% C20 rate), use a temperature compensating charger preferably PV, don't believe what a charger, or meter, or flashing LED tells you, it's not charged until all the sulphates are recombined which is the same specific gravity as the day you bought it, don't believe what any one charger or meter tells you; verify it's fidelity with a reliable meter, where possible at the battery posts not the charger output/meter input terminals, replace water as needed, equalise if needed (deviation of 0.030 specific gravity between cells), cycle to 40% DOD once a month to prevent acid stratification. Do all this and I'd give you nearly a decade daily use on semi-tractions.
Not that I do all that all the time, life will have us compromise.

Kevin McCloud

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Who in the name of god has the time to be doing this?

Most of it can be automated. It's a battery Utopia not a real world example.

Kevin McCloud

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Most of it can be automated. It's a battery Utopia not a real world example.

Can i buy a system that will do this?

Yup.
I'll build it for you.
How much dosh you got?

Kevin McCloud

All jokes aside if i knew there was a way in prolonging battery life at a reasinable cost i would do it, have a [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]trail-lite myself.
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All you need is a multi meter, hydrometer and time to figure out what works, that's the hardest part. Once you know what works making it plug and play isn't very difficult.
Personally I recommend PV and a MorningStar TriStar as a backbone.

This is a new model Sterling mains charger that looks promising but I haven't any personal experience with it.
Here's the weighty manual I have yet to work through but claims to do most you ask.

Actually first and foremost I'd recommend a genuine reliable battery SOC meter. That reads volts, amps (or watts), charge/discharge amps and % capacity.

Otherwise it's just guesswork.

Kevin McCloud

I have no intention of measuring batteries or buying meters etc, you said earlier most of it can be automated so where is this device that i can buy off the shelf to do this?

I never said it was off the shelf.
20 odd devices might cover it...maybe..

I'm sure you already have meters. Clocks, your dash instrument cluster. Battery gauges are as important as fuel gauges I never understand why everybody wants to cut that corner.

If you want fire and forget: solar panel, solar regulator and split charger.

If you want battery Utopia I'll send you a purchase order.

Kevin McCloud

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I never said it was off the shelf.
20 odd devices might cover it...maybe..

You said earlier:

All you need is a multi meter, hydrometer

Good night MacGyver wannabe.

Kevin McCloud

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

if i knew there was a way in prolonging battery life at a reasinable cost i would do it

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

All you need is a multi meter, hydrometer and time to figure out what works

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

20 odd devices might cover it...
If you want battery Utopia

I think for basic battery life prolonging all you need is a solar panel and a regulator.

*Kol*

How long will a battery last if you don't do anything? A few years?

A starter battery? Regular service; 1 - 6 years depending on use...How often the motor is run and how often it's parked with the lights on.

Morgan The Moon

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Yup.
I'll build it for you.
How much dosh you got?

Does it come with a guarantee and C.E. certification ?

Is it investment opportunity, like on Dragons Den ?

Sorry I'm out.



Morg

Morgan The Moon

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

Does it come with a guarantee and C.E. certification ?

Ah no, strictly cowboy!

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

Is it investment opportunity, like on Dragons Den ?

Electrons in the bank!

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

Sorry I'm out.

I'll pencil you in for after I get my stripes then.



Had a look around last night at desulphators. Of the whole lot the only ones that I'd consider are the frequency "resonant" ones and for that you just need a PWM charger.

Additives are contaminants, voltage pulsing will strip active material with the sulphates. ..just my €0.02
Didn't see any conclusive independent testing.

*Kol*

Would you not be better off just getting a new battery every few years? I replaced 1 van battery and 1 leisure battery in the last 6 years. That's not bad going.

Morgan The Moon

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

Does it come with a guarantee

Ah no, strictly cowboy!

100% more electrons in half the time! Happier batteries and meters on your meters or your money back*!







* if I can keep the gear you don't want.

dimsumss

put in distilled water and charge it

look for things that discharge it overnight like door light

*Kol*

*Kol* wrote: »

Would you not be better off just getting a new battery every few years? I replaced 1 van battery and 1 leisure battery in the last 6 years. That's not bad going.

Yes Kol. It would.

If you live on the system though instead of holiday on it will take precedence that it works reliably and well. I'd rather spend on gizmos than consumables.

It's entirely academic at this scale. As my intention is to eventually run a couple of ton of lead acids just for the craic then it's a more substantial investment.

*Kol*

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Yes Kol. It would.

If you live on the system though instead of holiday on it will take precedence that it works reliably and well. I'd rather spend on gizmos than consumables.

It's entirely academic at this scale. As my intention is to eventually run a couple of ton of lead acids just for the craic then it's a more substantial investment.

Thanks. For sure it makes sense to mind the batteries if you are depending on them. The leisure battery in ours serves very little as we are always hooked up.

This has solar panels on the roof to keep you charged off the grid. http://youtu.be/WvVYQkrTxbA

dimsumss

dimsumss wrote: »

put in distilled water and charge it

Charge it first then put water in it.
Electrolyte expands, if you fill it first you can't set the right level and may get an acid spillage.

Unless the water is below the plates...then just cover the plates, then charge it, then water it.

Morgan The Moon

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

It's entirely academic at this scale. As my intention is to eventually run a couple of ton of lead acids just for the craic then it's a more substantial investment.

Now yer talking !



Morg

*Kol*

Very Bling.
Hmmm 4x4 camper porn...my favourite.

*Kol* wrote: »

This has solar panels on the roof to keep you charged off the grid.

Where?
[Edit]: Ah hail proof screens I guess that's why they blend into the roof. Lower light permeability I'd expect.

Crap batteries out in the weather, not enough of them and the inverter's a hungry brute.
Bet it has C.E. Certification though.


This is what you need
http://vimeo.com/36948539

Sir Liamalot

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Bet it has C.E. Certification though.