Ethical quandry over reporting 3rd party offences caught on dash cams

Shiraz 4.99

I've come over here from After Hours where someone shared some bad overtaking on the R148 which was caught on a dash cam then uploaded to Live Leak.
Someone mentioned that the link had already been tweeted to the guards.
I can absolutely see where dash cams are useful when the owner is involved in a collision wishes to prove their innocence.

Does anyone else see the grey shakey ground we are on when normal citizens become officers of the state by sharing bad behaviour.
Once an offence is shared you are guaranteed it will be reported.

There are huge pros & cons on both sides of the debate.
If this has already been trashed out then please delete, I just believe it's a conversation worth having.

My opinion: The potential good far outweighs the big brother threat. Once a critical mass of cars start carrying these dash cams I believe driver behavior will improve exponentially. I'm all for it.

Valetta

Report all you want.

Leave it up to the guards and courts to decide guilt.

colm_mcm

Can't see an issue with it, but it is open to abuse. Like those protest videos you see on YouTube, its all in the editing. It would be easy to annoy another motorist to the point where they do something illegal.

ironclaw

For me, unless someone is actually hurt then there is no point in reporting it formally. As without a statement to go with it and some Garda follow up, nothing is going to happen. They are not going to rock around to Joe Bloggs house to give him a verbal warning for a video that was uploaded on YouTube.

colm_mcm

They act on drivers ringing traffic watch though.

CiniO

AFAIR There are already few countries where this has become as issue.

F.e. in Germany it is illegal to make dashcam videos public. I'm not sure if dashcam recordings can be used in courts there as proof but I don't think so.

In Austria it's completely illegal to use dashcams and heavy fines apply for anyone caught using one.

There's probably more countries like that.

ardmacha

CiniO wrote: »

In Austria it's completely illegal to use dashcams and heavy fines apply for anyone caught using one.

There's probably more countries like that.

It would be more rational to make them compulsory, this would reduce insurance costs for the responsible driver.

lau1247

it all depends on the severity of the act.. Highly dangerous driving should be reported otherwise no..

ironclaw

CiniO wrote: »

In Austria it's completely illegal to use dashcams and heavy fines apply for anyone caught using one.

Whats the reasoning behind that? Right to general public privacy?

Jesus.

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

Does anyone else see the grey shakey ground we are on when normal citizens become officers of the state by sharing bad behaviour.

Absolutely. Its a very slippery slope and not something I'd ever get involved in.

The kind of folk who go around anonymously reporting every Tom, Dick and Harry for every minor transgression they see are quislings really, devoid of any character or moral fiber.

Count me out

Del2005

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

I've come over here from After Hours where someone shared some bad overtaking on the R148 which was caught on a dash cam then uploaded to Live Leak.
Someone mentioned that the link had already been tweeted to the guards.
I can absolutely see where dash cams are useful when the owner is involved in a collision wishes to prove their innocence.

Does anyone else see the grey shakey ground we are on when normal citizens become officers of the state by sharing bad behaviour.
Once an offence is shared you are guaranteed it will be reported.

There are huge pros & cons on both sides of the debate.
If this has already been trashed out then please delete, I just believe it's a conversation worth having.

My opinion: The potential good far outweighs the big brother threat. Once a critical mass of cars start carrying these dash cams I believe driver behavior will improve exponentially. I'm all for it.

The thousands of dash cams in Russia have really improved their road safety.

sunnysoutheast

If I was witness to and recorded something very offensive and/or dangerous I probably would report it to Traffic Watch/Garda station, but it would have to be exceptional. I wouldn't upload to YouTube or anything similar.

From memory only one or two incidents in the last few years would qualify, I didn't have a dashcam at that time.

In general the standard of driving in Ireland is so abysmal that I wouldn't be without a dashcam these days.

sunnysoutheast

Del2005 wrote: »

The thousands of dash cams in Russia have really improved their road safety.

...plus footage of meteorites. Don't forget that

ThisRegard

Jesus. wrote: »

Absolutely. Its a very slippery slope and not something I'd ever get involved in.

The kind of folk who go around anonymously reporting every Tom, Dick and Harry for every minor transgression they see are quislings really, devoid of any character or moral fiber.

Count me out

I would hope more people report driving like in that video. I don't want to be driving head on against that asshole if he or she never learns a lesson and drivers like so on a regular basis.

bear1

ironclaw wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

In Austria it's completely illegal to use dashcams and heavy fines apply for anyone caught using one.

Whats the reasoning behind that? Right to general public privacy?

Bingo. Privacy laws. Which makes you think, are you allowed to take pictures in Austria anymore?

bear1

But one could argue, the Austrian law I believe is only enforced when it is not regarding your property.
However, dashcams are located inside the car which means it is located within the persons private property. Possible loophole?

Paco Rodriguez

ardmacha wrote: »

It would be more rational to make them compulsory, this would reduce insurance costs for the responsible driver.

Rational but not more profitable.

Cheensbo

Jesus. wrote: »

Absolutely. Its a very slippery slope and not something I'd ever get involved in.

The kind of folk who go around anonymously reporting every Tom, Dick and Harry for every minor transgression they see are quislings really, devoid of any character or moral fiber.

Count me out

X2

Also,



Gotta disagree with posters who say that Irish driving is abysmal/terrible/3rd world standard etc..

We've some of the safest roads in the world, with exceptionally low road deaths given our dependence on road travel. I suspect most people who say this have never actually looked at/experienced driving in a country where driving actually IS terrible.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

The thousands of dash cams in Russia have really improved their road safety.

Any statistics to that?

bear1

Del2005 wrote: »

The thousands of dash cams in Russia have really improved their road safety.

Very bold statement to make. Source?

CreepingDeath

Jesus. wrote: »

The kind of folk who go around anonymously reporting every Tom, Dick and Harry for every minor transgression they see are quislings really, devoid of any character or moral fiber.

On the contrary, as the saying going "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing".

Nobody is saying to report minor transgressions, only behaviour which affects everyones safety.
Also you cannot report anyone anonymously, you need to make a formal Garda statement. If someone kept coming into the station every month with a new motoring complaint I'm sure they'd tell them to get lost after a while.

If someone drives like a muppet threatening the safety of me and my family, then I'll report them.

I've only ever reported one taxi who undertook me using a left hand only lane and forcibly cut in just before the road ran out, nearly crashing into my passenger side... where my 9 month pregnant wife was sitting.

They got tracked down and cautioned for dangerous driving with a view to going to court, but it never got followed up. So he got a good scare but nothing else.

ironclaw

Cheensbo wrote: »

X2

We've some of the safest roads in the world, with exceptionally low road deaths given our dependence on road travel. I suspect most people who say this have never actually looked at/experienced driving in a country where driving actually IS terrible.

Having been in China and Mexico, I can say the standard is low but the drivers are aware. They all weave and wander across the road, and horns are blowing 24/7 but they never crash. I saw a handful the whole time I was there. As bad as people make the American's out to be, in my opinion, they drive quite well, again with a decent amount of awareness. I suggest a lap of Manhattan in an Aston to test this :pac:

Ireland has a much lower density of cars on the road but the majority of drivers are blissfully unaware and openly flaunt the rules and logic (Crossing hatched areas, sticking in lane 1 on a motorway right at a busy merge because they HAVE to come off at the next junction etc) Doing that in Mexico or China for example would have you killed pretty quick.

(Just my opinion and to be fair Ireland is not the worst, we just seem to have a fair few more idiots than usual)

Viper_JB

ironclaw wrote: »

Having been in China and Mexico, I can say the standard is low but the drivers are aware. They all weave and wander across the road, and horns are blowing 24/7 but they never crash. I saw a handful the whole time I was there. As bad as people make the American's out to be, in my opinion, they drive quite well, again with a decent amount of awareness. I suggest a lap of Manhattan in an Aston to test this :pac:

Ireland has a much lower density of cars on the road but the majority of drivers are blissfully unaware and openly flaunt the rules and logic (Crossing hatched areas, sticking in lane 1 on a motorway right at a busy merge because they HAVE to come off at the next junction etc) Doing that in Mexico or China for example would have you killed pretty quick.

(Just my opinion and to be fair Ireland is not the worst, we just seem to have a fair few more idiots than usual)

I actually seen a lot of crashes in the two weeks I was driving in the states when I was there, mostly on big 4 lane roads, mostly people being rear ended, what I noticed quiet a bit is that people were willing to pull into the smallest gap imaginable while driving in traffic at 70 mph then not create any space for themselves.

seamus

Video taken by a third party has basically the same weight of evidence as a statement from a member of the public. This is because it's basically impossible to prove that the video has not been tampered with in some way, even if just to cleverly cut out the before and after parts of it.

I see no issue with people providing this footage to the Gardai. They're agents of the state, and we are the state. So it makes no sense to withhold information from them, when we employ them to protect us.

In general Gardai can't/won't really act on these except in extreme circumstances. As I say, a video is as strong a 3rd party statement, so if you went to a Garda station and made a statement about some guy who overtook you on a blind corner and gave you the finger, the most they can really do is go down and give the guy a caution.
But if it was something more serious - such as the footage of the motorcyclist who hit the car at 100mph - then they're more likely to use that footage as evidence to pursue a conviction.

For civil issues, like determining blame in a crash, the same issue doesn't apply and a dashcam is invaluable.

Special Circumstances

Del2005 wrote: »

The thousands of dash cams in Russia have really improved their road safety.

CiniO wrote: »

Any statistics to that?

bear1 wrote: »

Very bold statement to make. Source?

Fairly sure that was sarcasm lads!

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

AFAIR There are already few countries where this has become as issue.

F.e. in Germany it is illegal to make dashcam videos public. I'm not sure if dashcam recordings can be used in courts there as proof but I don't think so.

In Austria it's completely illegal to use dashcams and heavy fines apply for anyone caught using one.

There's probably more countries like that.

I checked this out, in Germany you can have a dashcam, but the footage is completely useless as it cannot be admitted as evidence in court:
http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/the-problem-with-dashcam-videos-in-germany-1623794616
It's completely fcuked in the head stupid that you can have evidence and still end up guilty.
Actually, for the same reason google streetview is illegal in Germany.
The law should be "as long as you're outside the frontdoor, yo ass is on film, if you don't do anything dodgy, you have nothing to worry about"

Jesus.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

On the contrary, as the saying going "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing".

Oh catch on to yourself lad. This is not the Third Reich we're talking about :rolleyes:

Its about busy bodies with no life getting their kicks out of running to the authorities on their fellow citizens over nonsense. If that's your game then away with ye. Thankfully most people see such behavior for what it is.

Cookie_Monster

Jesus. wrote: »

Oh catch on to yourself lad. This is not the Third Reich we're talking about :rolleyes:

Its about busy bodies with no life getting their kicks out of running to the authorities on their fellow citizens over nonsense. If that's your game then away with ye. Thankfully most people see such behavior for what it is.

your attitude is despicable and the reason why so many thing remain backwards and non-working in this country.

If someone is driving dangerously and putting others at risk you are morally obliged to report it, never mind any legal consideration.

irishgrover

to be honest, I really don't get the problem with reporting...
if someone is driving like an asshole, I really don't care if there are an habitual nutjob of an occasion screw up. Either way they are sharing a road with me, potentially putting my life in danger, so **** em.
The majority of times, if you report something to the guards they will normally do some level of follow up. Have a word with the driver etc. This may, in some cases be sufficient to make them modify their ways.
I have no interest in every dash cam ending up in court or every report to traffic watch ending up in a prosecution, but I utterly endorse and support peoples rights to report..
If you want to drive like an asshole just **** off to a race track or private land and do it there....

Jesus.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

your attitude is despicable and the reason why so many thing remain backwards and non-working in this country.If someone is driving dangerously and putting others at risk you are morally obliged to report it, never mind any legal consideration.

One can only guess what your idea of "driving dangerously" is.

I shudder to think

irishgrover

Jesus. wrote: »

Oh catch on to yourself lad. This is not the Third Reich we're talking about :rolleyes:

Its about busy bodies with no life getting their kicks out of running to the authorities on their fellow citizens over nonsense. If that's your game then away with ye. Thankfully most people see such behavior for what it is.

I couldn't disagree more. I also disagree with your "most people" assumption, different folks....

CreepingDeath

Jesus. wrote: »

Oh catch on to yourself lad. This is not the Third Reich we're talking about :rolleyes:

There's a huge grey area in between "The Third Reich" and a "Mad Max" style chaotic society where everyone does what they want and nobody cares. The road is not just for angry single boy racers, there's plenty of people driving their families around.

Jesus. wrote: »

Its about busy bodies with no life getting their kicks out of running to the authorities on their fellow citizens over nonsense. .

Who are these busy bodies?
Have you had any experience of them personally?

I've certainly had plenty of experience of bad/dangerous drivers.
But I've never been reported for any bad driving myself.

Just a wild stab in the dark here, but do you drive a high powered car?

biko

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

Does anyone else see the grey shakey ground we are on when normal citizens become officers of the state by sharing bad behaviour.

No. Quite the opposite.
By taking the time to report a crime you are actually helping.

Leave it then to the DPP to decide if what is on the film is evidence enough to prosecute.

Jesus.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Just a wild stab in the dark here, but do you drive a high powered car?

1.6 Laguna :eek:

I'm a light foot type anyway. MPG attainment is my game. I managed to eek out 42 mixed (real not dash) during the Summer and I'm getting 36 at the moment. I only do 60mph on the Motorway (faster if required) but I know where you're coming from to be fair.

CiniO

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I checked this out, in Germany you can have a dashcam, but the footage is completely useless as it cannot be admitted as evidence in court:
http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/the-problem-with-dashcam-videos-in-germany-1623794616
It's completely fcuked in the head stupid that you can have evidence and still end up guilty.
Actually, for the same reason google streetview is illegal in Germany.
The law should be "as long as you're outside the frontdoor, yo ass is on film, if you don't do anything dodgy, you have nothing to worry about"

Hmm prohibition of publicing dashcam recordings public (like on youtube) in Germany is understandable. (well at least I understand the grounds for it as it might infringe someone's privacy), but I completely can't understand the logic behind not allowing it as evidence in court. That's bit of a nonsense...

I read somewhere as well about Austria, that it's completely illegal to use or even have dashcam in the car (even in glovebox) but I'm not sure about validity of that info, as I couldn't really find trustworthy source as I don't speak German. If you see any info in relation to this, could you let us know


BTW - does that mean that if I publish some dashcam recording from Germany on youtube, I'm committing some kind of an offence?
If so - what consequences could I suffer considering I don't live there?

CreepingDeath

CiniO wrote: »

Hmm prohibition of publicing dashcam recordings public (like on youtube) in Germany is understandable.

I just checked, you can use Google streetview in Germany.
I clicked on a random street in Munich and streetview is available.

So there's probably exceptions to the rule, or require you to pixelate faces and reg numbers.

The12thMan

did you just make the news?

Crazy overtake in Ireland' video goes viral

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/crazy-overtake-in-ireland-video-goes-viral-30925285.html

TheDoc

biko wrote: »

No. Quite the opposite.
By taking the time to report a crime you are actually helping.

Leave it then to the DPP to decide if what is on the film is evidence enough to prosecute.

Has there been confirmation relating to the potential data protection breaches and issues relating to dashcams?

don't use one myself and never had an issue on the receiving end. But there was an increasing trend of cyclists using helmetcams, and after seeing demafatory stuff on youtube from cyclists did a little brushing up.

Think you leave yourself open to defamation and data protection breaches using these if I'm honest. Has there been any comfirmation from the D>P commisioner on their use?

Alun

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I just checked, you can use Google streetview in Germany.
I clicked on a random street in Munich and streetview is available.

It's only available in a limited number of large cities. Zoom out of Google Maps until the whole of Germany is visible and then drag the little Streetview man over the map .. you'll see just a few blue areas over Munich, Frankfurt, Berlin Stuttgart etc. The rest of the country is not covered. Even within the areas that are covered a lot of houses are blanked out.

dr.fuzzenstein

TheDoc wrote: »

Has there been confirmation relating to the potential data protection breaches and issues relating to dashcams?

don't use one myself and never had an issue on the receiving end. But there was an increasing trend of cyclists using helmetcams, and after seeing demafatory stuff on youtube from cyclists did a little brushing up.

Think you leave yourself open to defamation and data protection breaches using these if I'm honest. Has there been any comfirmation from the D>P commisioner on their use?

Hard to see how dashcam footage can be defamatory, it should be quite the opposite.
Unless it maybe has been heavily edited to misrepresent what happened.
My theory is, courts and insurance companies like to quickly and easily apportion blame and move on. Motorists that now start to whine and complain and dispute facts with their "facts" and "evidence" are messing up the system, causing delays and costing money. Simply ignore the fact that dashcmas exist and go back to the old system of randomly blaming on party, move on and nevermind the whingers.

I foresee one more side effect: imagine you scratch your ear and a cop "decides" you where on the phone and will do you for it. We can't very well have people making fools out of our wonderful and efficient law enforcement, so if a cop says you did X,Y and Z, you did it.

Chris_Heilong

The overtaking video was not as bad as I was expecting, stupid to do when you can see cars are coming the other way but I just thought it would be worse(spoiled by all those Russian videos).

tu2j2

Jesus. wrote: »

One can only guess what your idea of "driving dangerously" is.

I shudder to think

And here in lies the problem, I would say the vast majority of people thing that anything they wouldn't do is dangerous.

I don't want the cops rocking up at my door cause I overtook somebody on my bike and they think I'm and idiot because I'm traveling faster than them.

For the life of me I wouldn't have one, God forbid your incriminating yourself if you ever make a mistake when your driving. I think it's bad that people feel the need to have these things, the standard of driving in this country is not as bad as is made out, ya it's **** but so is everywhere else at the end of the day.

dr.fuzzenstein

tu2j2 wrote: »

And here in lies the problem, I would say the vast majority of people thing that anything they wouldn't do is dangerous.

I don't want the cops rocking up at my door cause I overtook somebody on my bike and they think I'm and idiot because I'm traveling faster than them.

For the life of me I wouldn't have one, God forbid your incriminating yourself if you ever make a mistake when your driving. I think it's bad that people feel the need to have these things, the standard of driving in this country is not as bad as is made out, ya it's **** but so is everywhere else at the end of the day.

Get a helmet cam!

nick240v

sorry for thread resurrection, but I think I need to post a few more times before uploading a vid to the dash cam forum as I'm a new registered member

It's a clip of an absolute knob with a kid in the back undertaking on the hard shoulder on the N7

In Uk there are links to send footage too - I'm no grass but this guy needs to be off the road - haven't found a link yet to the guards where I can report via dash cam - anyone know?

Happened yesterday on N7 near Naas
Cheers

ironclaw

@nick240v, Their Twitter account is fairly active. You can tweet a YouTube link to them. Alternatively, I'm fairly sure Traffic Corp have an email address. Of the two, I'd recommend the Twitter route. Without being funny, I'd actually say they review the stuff here or at the very least some active members would have a passing interest. They have picked up on some of the videos here before.

Post it up anyway!

9935452

Wasnt there a video put up on youtube at one stage a few years back by boyracers of them showing off, speeding , driving dangerously, hanging out of windows and the like,
They were done for dangerous driving werent they? The guards got the numberplates off the video

nick240v

cheers - I need 25 posts though first to enable a link it says

I will stick it in the dash cam section

21 posts to go

nick240v

20 to go

dashcamdanny

Hey. copy the link onto a reply and take out .com and http We can post it proper then.

nick240v

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua5lU2P2tjY

just checking?

nick240v

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua5lU2P2tjY

thanks danny - sorted it now as above