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irish justice

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    #32
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    jamesbondings wrote: »
    i Have read both articles again and there is no link whatsoever, what they done is wrong but you cant just throw more crimes on their head without any proof..." there was an attack in town last night" must have been these two lads and their mates.......


    ok whatever, they are not linked, whoopi do.

    the lads in the opening post are still scum of the earth.


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    #33
    jamesbondings
    Registered Users Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭jamesbondings


    agree, but like i said you cant just throw everything at them, they are guilty for what they done and should serve time.....


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    #34
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    FluffyAngel wrote: »
    Because everybody deserves a chance

    its not right or wrong

    Everyone DOES deserve a chance but only AFTER they've paid for their crimes. A bit of stupidity like petty vandalism or shoplifting is something that I would say 90% of Irish youths/teenagers have engaged in. There's no need to throw a kid into borstal because he scribbled "Robbie loves Aoife" on the bus shelter or pilfered a Mars Bar from Centra. Shit even if the little idiot smoked a bit of weed it's hardly a crime worthy of shaping his future for the worse.
    Violent assault is a different kettle of fish altogether. It takes just one punch or one kick in the head to put someone in a wheelchair or a coffin and these little scumbags need to be taught that. Nevermind that they are sorry and remorseful. They are only sorry because they were caught. They didn't spend a minute regretting it when they were doing it and they should be punished harshly. Sure they deserve a second chance when they've paid for their crimes. I'm all for them not having a criminal record hanging over their heads for the rest of their lives. If by some miracle these two twits discover brains they never knew they had, applied themselves academically and had a chance for a successful future then I would be all for whatever criminal conviction they have earned to be expunged from the records after say 5 years and they can start afresh. But not punishing them at ALL in the first place because you think they deserve a chance? Fuck right off with that!


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    #35
    jamesbondings
    Registered Users Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭jamesbondings


    i would actually like to see them publicly apologize, then we would see if they were genuine (which I doubt they were, as the judge told the second lad to write an apology letter)

    Id also like to see if in ten years time they are ashamed and mortified by what they have done.....


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    #36
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    They probably have a valid tv licence


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    #37
    bear1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    FluffyAngel wrote: »
    Because everybody deserves a chance

    its not right or wrong

    Are you one of the lads from the Indo then?
    If not then that is the most stupid thing I've read today.


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    #38
    oceanman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭oceanman


    locking young people up is stupid, they are meeting up with hardened types in prison and usually come out worse than they went in. community service is a better way to go, at least that way they are putting something back into society and it costs the taxpayer far less!


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    #39
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    FluffyAngel wrote: »
    Because everybody deserves a chance

    its not right or wrong

    Its exactly because of this attitude that these scum exist in the first place.:mad:
    Hope you are proud of your post.!!


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    #40
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    Of course they should be given a criminal conviction.

    The Gardai and all sorts of trained/experienced people who work in the justice system with years of experience disagree.

    You continue mouthing off if makes you feel better though.


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    #41
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Are they thugs? Yes.

    Is giving them a criminal record wise? Probably not.

    If you give someone a criminal record it will seriously affect their chances of getting on courses and getting gainful employment. If there is a chance of diverting these guys away from a criminal record and subsequent life of crime it should be taken. The option to prosecute these guys at a future point will still present itself if they don't stay 'diverted'.

    See, the pitchfork brigade are the same whiners who bleat on about tax-payers money being wasted on this-that-and-the-other when people end up with multiple convictions and lengthy prison sentences that cost the exchequer vast sums of money.

    Should the State give every citizen one free go at committing a violent crime with the knowledge that it will not result in a criminal record so as to avoid harming their chances of finding gainful employment or is there something special about these two thugs that you wish to make an exception for them?


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    #42
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Egginacup wrote: »
    Everyone DOES deserve a chance but only AFTER they've paid for their crimes. A bit of stupidity like petty vandalism or shoplifting is something that I would say 90% of Irish youths/teenagers have engaged in. There's no need to throw a kid into borstal because he scribbled "Robbie loves Aoife" on the bus shelter or pilfered a Mars Bar from Centra. Shit even if the little idiot smoked a bit of weed it's hardly a crime worthy of shaping his future for the worse.
    Violent assault is a different kettle of fish altogether. It takes just one punch or one kick in the head to put someone in a wheelchair or a coffin and these little scumbags need to be taught that. Nevermind that they are sorry and remorseful. They are only sorry because they were caught. They didn't spend a minute regretting it when they were doing it and they should be punished harshly. Sure they deserve a second chance when they've paid for their crimes. I'm all for them not having a criminal record hanging over their heads for the rest of their lives. If by some miracle these two twits discover brains they never knew they had, applied themselves academically and had a chance for a successful future then I would be all for whatever criminal conviction they have earned to be expunged from the records after say 5 years and they can start afresh. But not punishing them at ALL in the first place because you think they deserve a chance? Fuck right off with that!

    We don't imprison based on what might or could have happened.

    I agree that the attack was nasty. And I've been attacked like that in the past too so I don't have any particular sympathy for the culprits. However restorative justice projects aren't just given to anyone. It's not something that can work all the time. It's used when a very special set of criteria are met. It always has to have the backing of the victim.

    I believe the criminal justice system we have is generally very good but it isn't suitable for every situation. Sometimes it's like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. Sometimes there can be a better way to solve problems.


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    #43
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    Should the State give every citizen one free go at committing a violent crime

    No because that would be profoundly stupid.
    is there something special about these two thugs that you wish to make an exception for them?

    I'm not making any exception. The justice system we have in place has decided not to give them a criminal record. I think I trust the justice system more than a bunch of blow-hard know-nothings on the internet. The last time I checked we lived in one of the safest liberal democracies on Earth and I believe our justice system plays a major part in making it safe.

    Welcome to Ireland, enjoy your stay.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Does this "restorative justice crime diversion programme" have the ability to remove the scumbag gene?


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    #45
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Welcome to Ireland, enjoy your stay.

    You should have said that the the brazilian tourist before he was viciously assaulted by these ballbags.


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    #46
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Grayson wrote: »
    We don't imprison based on what might or could have happened.
    Dangerous driving?


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    #47
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Dangerous driving?

    that is a crime by itself. Assault is a crime by itself. Attempted murder is a different crime.

    You can't arrest someone for assault and then charge them for attempted murder because it might have happened.


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    #48
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Grayson wrote: »
    that is a crime by itself. Assault is a crime by itself. Attempted murder is a different crime.

    You can't arrest someone for assault and then charge them for attempted murder because it might have happened.
    So if a friend gives you a dead arm at a paty or someone jumps on your skull as you lie lifeless on the pavement, they are guilty of the same crime?


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    #49
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    You should have said that the the brazilian tourist before he was viciously assaulted by these ballbags.

    Okay.


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    #50
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    BeerWolf wrote: »
    Getting tired of teenagers getting off easy just because they're under 18...

    Children over 12 committing heinous crimes should be trialled like an adult and serve the same amount of jail time just like an adult...

    Why should 18 suddenly be a magical number where criminals over it have their names published, while completely ****ed up kids are protected.
    Why? The clues in the name - they're not adults. They're children.


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    #51
    BeerWolf
    Registered Users Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Why? The clues in the name - they're not adults. They're children.

    A child past 12 should be well aware of what's right and wrong. There are plenty of adults that are beyond stupid, with the mentality of a child yet are trialled as adults.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Why? The clues in the name - they're not adults. They're children.


    If they can knock out a man they are not children


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    #53
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,329 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Why? The clues in the name - they're not adults. They're children.

    A 3 year old shouldnt be allowed get away with kicking someone in the head (parents job to correct) let alone a 17 year old!

    If someone hasn't learned that thats unacceptable by the age of 5 or 6 well maybe they just arent ready for society and need special care! Certainly the parents do if they havent taught them that by that age!

    As for 17....forget it..try them as adults for acts such as this.


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    #54
    bear1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    whomitconcerns wrote: »
    A 3 year old shouldnt be allowed get away with kicking someone in the head (parents job to correct) let alone a 17 year old!

    If someone hasn't learned that thats unacceptable by the age of 5 or 6 well maybe they just arent ready for society and need special care! Certainly teh parents do if they havent thought them that by that age!

    As for 17....forget it..try them as adults for acts such as this.

    The only problem I can see with that is that if a 16 year old does it - do we try them as an adult then as well?
    The problem with the Irish justice system from what I can see is that crimes which deserve a high sentencing receive unusually low sentencing but commit a small crime and you can get a high sentencing.
    It's like there is no standard form of passing sentence.
    There should be a reformation of the whole justice system including judges.


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    #55
    Generic Dreadhead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Rarely does a news article inspire such annoyance in me as this when I read it this morning. The punishment should fit the crime


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    #56
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    So if a friend gives you a dead arm at a paty or someone jumps on your skull as you lie lifeless on the pavement, they are guilty of the same crime?

    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. And they're both equivalent to murder.

    btw, there are different levels of assault. That's because our legal system have differentiate between the varying severities. For example when I was assaulted 4 guys jumped me. Another filmed it. Whilst I was knocked to the ground one of them smashed a beer bottle into the back of my head. However all of them were charged with a lesser charge because they didn't know who hit me with the beer bottle.

    People get charged according to what they did, not what they might have done or could have done. That's entirely fair.

    In this case, for restorative justice to take place the attackers would have to have shown remorse, they would have to show how they can make a difference if they are not found guilty, the victim would also have to agree to it all.


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    #57
    tom_tarbucket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭tom_tarbucket


    bear1 wrote: »
    The only problem I can see with that is that if a 16 year old does it - do we try them as an adult then as well?
    The problem with the Irish justice system from what I can see is that crimes which deserve a high sentencing receive unusually low sentencing but commit a small crime and you can get a high sentencing.
    It's like there is no standard form of passing sentence.
    There should be a reformation of the whole justice system including judges.


    YES

    12, 13, 14, 15, 16. They are old enough at this stage to know right from wrong. As has been said, if they are old enough to knock out an adult, they are old enough to suffer the FULL consequences. forget all this they are too young b00lix.


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    #58
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    bear1 wrote: »
    The only problem I can see with that is that if a 16 year old does it - do we try them as an adult then as well?
    The problem with the Irish justice system from what I can see is that crimes which deserve a high sentencing receive unusually low sentencing but commit a small crime and you can get a high sentencing.
    It's like there is no standard form of passing sentence.
    There should be a reformation of the whole justice system including judges.

    Perhaps the upcomming referendum on the voting age should also align with the age of criminal responsibility so, after all, if you're old enough to vote and have sex why not go to jail?


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    #59
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    I'd be furious if I received a 'letter of apology' from those scumbags after they had kicked my head in.
    A probation officer had assessed the pair and concluded they were suitable candidates for inclusion in the restorative justice crime diversion programme which can also include the possibility of a meeting with the victim to learn about the impact of the crime.
    That's even more ridiculous.


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    #60
    bear1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    I'd be furious if I received a 'letter of apology' from those scumbags after they had kicked my head in.

    That's even more ridiculous.

    Especially a forced apology.


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    #61
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    "the judge told me i have to say sorry. so sorry lol"


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