Catholic schools - are many "opting out" of communion?

Sesame

My son is going to be starting primary soon. When he was born and the subject of baptism came up, I had the opinion that as we weren't religious and things were changing in Ireland, it wouldn't be a problem by the time he reached 2nd class and it was more likely to be an "opt in" than "opt out" of the communion process.
Looks like I was wildly optimistic.
He's now 4 so I'm interested to know about your average catholic country school (where there's no real alternative choice schools), what percentage of the class are opting out? And what do those pupils spend the communion preparation time doing?
As parents, we are having a bit of a debate on this and I want him to be excluded but his dad doesn't if it means he'll be treated differently.
I'm still hoping that its 50:50 by the time he starts so it won't be a concern but I'm beginning to doubt it.
If only a couple are excluded, then it looks like his dad (who claims he is Catholic and a believer - which I doubt but that's a whole other topic) will get our son baptized so that he can make his communion with his class and in turn, won't be treated differently.
He already has a place in the school so being offered a place subject to baptism status isn't an issue here.
I'm also going to meet the principal next week, so any good questions to ask would be useful too.

huskerdu

My kids go to a Catholic school in Dublin. Typically only 2/3 kids max per class don't make their communion. My daughter was the only child in her class not making her communion.

The school has no obligation to provide alternative classes for kids who are opting out. The schools have no facilities for this. My kids participated in the prep, as I thought this would be easiest. In the case of my kids classes, the other kids not making their communion were Muslim and the parents did not want their kids in the church, so they went to other classes.

Coming up to communion there is a huge amount of time spent on prep in the church and a lot of time in the class is spent on learning and practicing the hymns.

I would ask the principal how many children do they typically have that opt out and what happens to them during the prep time.

Be prepared for your child being excluded from the class photo on the Monday after the communion and not being allowed to sit with the rest of the class, if you attend the mass.

It was hard for us at times, but I refused to lie about my religious beliefs. I bought them new outfits and we attended the ceremony and participated. We had a family meal on the day and made a fuss of them. Within a week it was forgotten.

byhookorbycrook

huskerdu wrote: »

Be prepared for your child being excluded from the class photo on the Monday after the communion and not being allowed to sit with the rest of the class, if you attend the mass.

.

To be fair, if a parent decides their child is opting out, it is presumed a) they won't be there on the day and b that parents don't want them in the Communion photo either. How are they supposed to know otherwise?

pooch90

I teach in a country school and this year there are (I think) 3 not making the communion. 2 twins and another child. The following year, none will opt out and the year after there will only be one. I think of the current Junior Infant class there will be one ( I have Senior Infants so am going on the classes I've taught) Average class size of 25.

Sesame

Thanks for the replies. Huskerdu, that's a good compromise actually. Let him sit in on the learning but just exclude him from the day itself. Then he isn't really excluded and can learn a bit too while he's there. I can fill in the gaps myself and teach him about some of the other religions that people believe.

huskerdu

Sesame wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. Huskerdu, that's a good compromise actually. Let him sit in on the learning but just exclude him from the day itself. Then he isn't really excluded and can learn a bit too while he's there. I can fill in the gaps myself and teach him about some of the other religions that people believe.

It worked for us. Good luck.

huskerdu

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

To be fair, if a parent decides their child is opting out, it is presumed a) they won't be there on the day and b that parents don't want them in the Communion photo either. How are they supposed to know otherwise?

I didn't complain about it. I merely explained. I felt that this was useful information for the OP as they specifically asked about the child being excluded.

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

To be fair, if a parent decides their child is opting out, it is presumed a) they won't be there on the day and b that parents don't want them in the Communion photo either. How are they supposed to know otherwise?

Maybe the parents could be asked? When I made my communion a long time ago we had some children in the school who were refugees from Lebanon, and they sat in the class photo. Then when confirmation came around we had refugees from Bosnia in the photos. I think, to be fair, asking a parent wouldn't be terribly difficult.

vicwatson

We simply said that as we don't go to mass and don't follow organised religion that we wouldn't be participating in communion or the lead up to it (confession and all that stuff), instead we went to Spain for the week leading up to an including it and not a bother, Spain was far better !

I think it's important to expalin it very clearly to your child so as they don't feel excluded in any way. My child are in the class while religion is going on but don't participate (instead they read a book or do some extra work instead), it's a pity that this is the way it has to be. A real pity.

A lot of the classmates were fed up that my child got to go away for the whole thing and didn't have to attend the masses etc !!

I've no problem where parents are committed catholics and attend mass every week with their child, bully for them, but in reality how many are like that? and just utilise the day for a good day out (and forget the religious element the next day), those, and it is by far the majority, bug me, it's so phoney.

Sesame

Yeah it is phoney. I was turned off the idea after going to a million christenings where the extended family all drank late into the night. Whats the point?
Imagine if the teachers said, ok, you can opt out and do science instead (which I never did in primary, but would have loved to). I bet there would be a huge take-up and the religion class would be near empty.

lazygal

Sesame wrote: »

Yeah it is phoney. I was turned off the idea after going to a million christenings where the extended family all drank late into the night. Whats the point?
Imagine if the teachers said, ok, you can opt out and do science instead (which I never did in primary, but would have loved to). I bet there would be a huge take-up and the religion class would be near empty.

What's galling for me is reading that if parents opt out of sex education a child is facilitated in another room, but when its opting out of religion the child has to stay in the classroom.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Why send your child to a catholic school then? That's like going to a mosque and complaining women are wearing a hijab or sending your child to a gaelscoil and complain they're speaking irish

lazygal

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Why send your child to a catholic school then? That's like going to a mosque and complaining women are wearing a hijab or sending your child to a gaelscoil and complain they're speaking irish

That's like assuming 92% of schools aren't religious.
This old rant again, like parents in many areas have any choice. I suppose next you'll be telling us we should be on our knees in gratitude because otherwise the children of Ireland would never have schools to go to were it not for the religious orders.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

No, if a catholic school is where you choose to send your child, it should come as no surprise that they'll be teaching religion. If you're so offended about your child having to sit in a religion class dont send them to a catholic school.

lazygal

LexieOnRale wrote: »

No, if a catholic school is where you choose to send your child, it should come as no surprise that they'll be teaching religion. If you're so offended about your child having to sit in a religion class dont send them to a catholic school.

And if you don't have a choice about where your child goes to school, what then?

Children are legally entitled to attend school, and parents are legally obliged to ensure they attend. There's also a provision in the Constitution that opting out of religious education cannot affect the right of a child to attend such a school.
I'm sure you'll just repost the usual 'What do you expect in a catholic school, get over it' rubbish we always hear though, and won't let the facts get in the way.

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

That's like assuming 92% of schools aren't religious.
This old rant again, like parents in many areas have any choice. I suppose next you'll be telling us we should be on our knees in gratitude because otherwise the children of Ireland would never have schools to go to were it not for the religious orders.

Parents have a choice whether or not to send their children to a catholic ethos school. If enough people refrain from sending their children to catholic schools, then the Government might sit up and take notice. You're equating inconvenience with no choice, but the fact is that many parents will choose to send their child to a catholic school, because any other choice would simply be inconvenient for them.

You don't have to get on your knees at all, but if you could quit playing the martyr that'd be nice. Your issue is with the State, and not with the Church.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Send your child to a different school? There's schools that are non denominational, educate together, why not send them there? You want to send your non religious child to a religious school and expect the school to bend to suit you? Would you cop on to yourself. If the child isn't participating in the class, fair enough but to expect schools to cater for another subject or place the child else where so as not to offend his/her delicate ears with religion? Nonsense.

lazygal

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Send your child to a different school? There's schools that are non denominational, educate together, why not send them there? You want to send your non religious child to a religious school and expect the school to bend to suit you? Would you cop on to yourself. If the child isn't participating in the class, fair enough but to expect schools to cater for another subject or place the child else where so as not to offend his/her delicate ears with religion? Nonsense.

There are no non denominational state run schools in Ireland. Educate Together schools are multidenominational. There is a difference.

Why would children be facilitated in another classroom for things like sex education, but expected to remain in a classroom for religion? The parents can opt out of either, what's the difference?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

lazygal wrote: »

There are no non denominational state run schools in Ireland. Educate Together schools are multidenominational. There is a difference.

Why would children be facilitated in another classroom for things like sex education, but expected to remain in a classroom for religion? The parents can opt out of either, what's the difference?

Because you're not sending your child to a sex run school, you're sending them to a religious school. Also, is sex education taught twice a week?

lazygal

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Because you're not sending your child to a sex run school, you're sending them to a religious school. Also, is sex education taught twice a week?

What on earth do you mean by this? Is sex education a bad thing now?

I haven't a clue how often sex education is taught, but some form of religious education is taught in primary schools for 30 minutes each day.

Sesame

Sorry, didn't mean to cause such debate! But Lexie, not sure if you read my initial post. Its a country school. They are no other options for us here.
An alternative would be fantastic but we don't have such a luxury.
bBt yes, in theory, I agree with you. But the reality is different.

Tasden

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Send your child to a different school? There's schools that are non denominational, educate together, why not send them there? You want to send your non religious child to a religious school and expect the school to bend to suit you? Would you cop on to yourself. If the child isn't participating in the class, fair enough but to expect schools to cater for another subject or place the child else where so as not to offend his/her delicate ears with religion? Nonsense.

Are you aware of the enrolment policies for ET schools? Some people have put their child's name on the list the week the child is born and still weren't given a place. Many areas don't have any ET schools or else not enough to accommodate the amount of children requiring a place. Its not always that simple to just put their child in a different school.

Also most ET schools have only been established in recent years, sure our local one was in a temporary prefab up until late last year. When it comes to facilities etc sometimes the Catholic schools are the better option overall, and unfortunately parents have to compromise, and given the option most parents would choose the better school over the one that is more suited to their (lack of) beliefs.

When there are enough ET schools to accommodate every child's needs and they are up to the same standards as catholic schools then fair enough but until then people are left having to make difficult choices regarding their children's education and they have a right to express their grievances. Of course the catholic schools have the right to do as they please regarding RE, but that doesn't mean parents can't feel disappointed that they find themselves in that position due to the lack of alternatives available.

CarpeDiem85

A personal bugbear of mine. As another poster stated, why send your child to a Catholic school with a Catholic ethos and then moan about it. All subjects are taught already so why substitute the time religion is being taught with any other subject. Anytime I had to teach religion in a classroom, it wasn't about pushing the idea of Jesus, Mary and Joseph. It was a lovely time to promote through music, song, story, poems etc a moral education such as sharing, forgiveness, caring and respect for others, etc. I hate that some people think it's about bringing out the cane and making children memorise verses from the bible. It's not. I'm not saying you can't have your beliefs but if you did any research into a schools teaching, you would know this already. I want my child to be brought up as a Christian so I'm not going to send her to a Muslim school. Every year I teach, the children are getting worse. They have little moral grounding, manners or respect. A sad reflection of society today I fear.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

The child is a reflection of the parents I think

vicwatson

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Send your child to a different school? There's schools that are non denominational, educate together, why not send them there? You want to send your non religious child to a religious school and expect the school to bend to suit you? Would you cop on to yourself. If the child isn't participating in the class, fair enough but to expect schools to cater for another subject or place the child else where so as not to offend his/her delicate ears with religion? Nonsense.

Eh who pays for the running of these schools?

mikom

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

Every year I teach, the children are getting worse. They have little moral grounding, manners or respect. A sad reflection of society today I fear.

They'd wanna be careful especially the girls, or they'll end up in a Magdalene laundry.

I'll leave you with this quote.........

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
Socrates

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

vicwatson wrote: »

Eh who pays for the running of these schools?

Well the church owns the school and the state funds most of it. But I suspect you knew that

lazygal

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

A personal bugbear of mine. As another poster stated, why send your child to a Catholic school with a Catholic ethos and then moan about it. All subjects are taught already so why substitute the time religion is being taught with any other subject. Anytime I had to teach religion in a classroom, it wasn't about pushing the idea of Jesus, Mary and Joseph. It was a lovely time to promote through music, song, story, poems etc a moral education such as sharing, forgiveness, caring and respect for others, etc. I hate that some people think it's about bringing out the cane and making children memorise verses from the bible. It's not. I'm not saying you can't have your beliefs but if you did any research into a schools teaching, you would know this already. I want my child to be brought up as a Christian so I'm not going to send her to a Muslim school. Every year I teach, the children are getting worse. They have little moral grounding, manners or respect. A sad reflection of society today I fear.

A society consisting of many people who were raised in the catholic faith, I suspect. Maybe that has contributed to the problem, people like me and others realizing our parents and teachers didn't actually believe most of the 'faith' they were teaching us.

vicwatson

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Well the church owns the school and the state funds most of it. But I suspect you knew that

Oh right, where does the church get its part of the funding from? You can be sure that ALL salaries, lighting, heating, maintenance etc etc is paid for by the taxpayer (all taxpayers). This is fact.

Also, I doubt very much if new schools and extensions that have been built by the taxpayer are now automatically in the ownership of the catholic church. if this is the case its a bigger outrage than them covering up paedophilia in the roman catholic church.

vicwatson

mikom wrote: »

They'd wanna be careful especially the girls, or they'll end up in a Magdalene laundry.

I'll leave you with this quote.........

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
Socrates

Of course, children should not be children, they should be seen and not heard !

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Going off topic but I don't think it's fair to say it's just society who grew up within the Catholic faith. I'm mid 20s, the least religious person ever, and I think kids are less respectful, more naughty, and have questionable manners. I think this comes from parents over indulging nonsense, not believing their child is capable of being bold, and just being allowed do what they like. That's nothing to do with religion, it's all to do with parenting

Spanish Eyes

IMV, all schools should be Educate Together ethos.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/about/core-principles

Religious education should be a private thing for the child and the family and arranged separately by them if they want it.

But the Catholic Church in this country would never agree to such an inclusive and child centred focus based on ethos/religion/none of the family and child.

Ruari Quinn did a lot to encourage this kind of thinking.

Is it time now, that all schools are non denominational, and your religion, or none is your own choice?

Just like it works fine in France for example.

I often wonder, if people had to PAY separately for First Communion religion classes and all the rest of it, how many would do it?

lazygal

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Going off topic but I don't think it's fair to say it's just society who grew up within the Catholic faith. I'm mid 20s, the least religious person ever, and I think kids are less respectful, more naughty, and have questionable manners. I think this comes from parents over indulging nonsense, not believing their child is capable of being bold, and just being allowed do what they like. That's nothing to do with religion, it's all to do with parenting

I think children are about as good or bad as they've ever been.
One thing I am grateful for is the reduction in children being written off as 'bold' when they really need support for problems like being on the autistic spectrum. And I'm really happy my children won't suddenly realize when they get older that neither me nor their father believed a whit of catholic teaching, unlike what me and my husband experienced, which then led me to wonder why they bothered indoctrinating us at all.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Yes I agree, Spanish Eyes. Although I think there should be more ET schools set up, rather than forcing the catholic schools into not teaching religion.

Spanish Eyes

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Yes I agree, Spanish Eyes. Although I think there should be more ET schools set up, rather than forcing the catholic schools into not teaching religion.

That will result in far too many schools though!

The need for ET schools (or secular, with religion separate) is high, so there is a massive need for the 90% odd Catholic schools to actually become ET. and then they can provide the Catholic Education and First Communion/Confirmation education separately for those who want it.

Maybe if Catholic Schools turned ET, and charged for RE according to Catholic norms, they would make a fortune, for all those parents and children who really want it.

And then EVERYONE'S CHILD can get the education the parents want for them. Convenient, nearby, all inclusive. What's wrong with that I ask?

Sorted.

lazygal

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Yes I agree, Spanish Eyes. Although I think there should be more ET schools set up, rather than forcing the catholic schools into not teaching religion.

Why would we duplicate services like that? We holidayed in the west of Ireland this summer and driving around we saw loads of schools, catholic, CofI, Anglican, ET, Methodist etc, all in very close proximity to each other. It would be far more efficient and cost effective, as well as pooling scarce and duplicated resources, into one or two large schools, and letting those who wish to indoctrinate their children do so outside of school hours. Would you set up an ET in every local area? Even if there is another school or five there already?

pooch90

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Going off topic but I don't think it's fair to say it's just society who grew up within the Catholic faith. I'm mid 20s, the least religious person ever, and I think kids are less respectful, more naughty, and have questionable manners. I think this comes from parents over indulging nonsense, not believing their child is capable of being bold, and just being allowed do what they like. That's nothing to do with religion, it's all to do with parenting

A lot of it comes down to parents wanting to be their child's friend and not their parent. They want to be liked over respected and pander to all the kids' demands.
A particular bug bear of mine is the parent with child acting the maggot in shops. "The man will give out to you", just give out to them yourself!
I see it with my nieces and nephews too.
I don't think it's in any way linked to faith.

The poster above that spoke about the Alive-O programme is correct, the majority of the chapters are about generally being kind and inclusive, not shoving bible quotes down their throats. The morals behind the bible stories are over the heads of my senior infants anyway. RE time is a more relaxed one where you can chat and relate the issues to their own lives, sing a song, colour in the book etc.
While I'm in no way religious, I see the benefit of the teachings contained in the programme, even if a lot of it is waffle.

Anyway, all of this is completely off the topic of the OP, should have predicted the thread would descend into Church bashing.

shruikan2553

From my experience the children not doing Communion just read a book. Only 1 or 2 per class wouldnt be doing it but that was over 10 years ago, none of the other children give a **** so no need to worry about being the odd one out.



Some people are under the impression that people have a huge range of schools to choose from and just pick the Catholic school for the fun of it.

lazygal

pooch90 wrote: »

The poster above that spoke about the Alive-O programme is correct, the majority of the chapters are about generally being kind and inclusive, not shoving bible quotes down their throats. The morals behind the bible stories are over the heads of my senior infants anyway. RE time is a more relaxed one where you can chat and relate the issues to their own lives, sing a song, colour in the book etc.
While I'm in no way religious, I see the benefit of the teachings contained in the programme, even if a lot of it is waffle

http://education.dublindiocese.ie/2012/02/21/senior-infants-alive-o-programme/
Learning prayers off by heart and scripture passages is the indoctrination programme for senior infants. It might not be 'shoving bible quotes down their throats' but it isn't benign.

How does being kind and inclusive square with doctrine that suggests that because my children aren't baptized they won't get into heaven?

vicwatson

The poster above that spoke about the Alive-O programme is correct, the majority of the chapters are about generally being kind and inclusive, not shoving bible quotes down their throats. The morals behind the bible stories are over the heads of my senior infants anyway. RE time is a more relaxed one where you can chat and relate the issues to their own lives, sing a song, colour in the book etc.
While I'm in no way religious, I see the benefit of the teachings contained in the programme, even if a lot of it is waffle.

IMO this should be done at home by the child's parents, teaching a child to be kind and inclusive and to teach them morals etc etc is a job for parents and parents only.

You don't need a bible or indeed any religious structure to teach them right from wrong.

Spanish Eyes

vicwatson wrote: »

IMO this should be done at home by the child's parents, teaching a child to be kind and inclusive and to teach them morals etc etc is a job for parents and parents only.

You don't need a bible or indeed any religious structure to teach them right from wrong.

True.

In fact religions have caused more trouble than anything else all around the world.

And I don't need to elaborate about the loss of life and all the rest of it, either historically or present, because of high dudgeon due to religious beliefs.

Ethics, kindness, tolerance, right from wrong, are common to all people.

Religions are not.

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

http://education.dublindiocese.ie/2012/02/21/senior-infants-alive-o-programme/
Learning prayers off by heart and scripture passages is the indoctrination programme for senior infants. It might not be 'shoving bible quotes down their throats' but it isn't benign.

I'm sure you remember quite a lot of school is learning by rote. Songs, poetry, rhymes, memorising pieces for literacy... Theorems for mathematics.

Indoctrination is where you exclude or prevent learning. Where's the exclusion there?

I would be very slow to prevent children from having anything to do with any religion, or trying to pretend it doesn't exist by shielding them from even seeing/reading the texts. They're going to encounter it a lot as adults if they ever travel outside their front door.

Spanish Eyes

pwurple wrote: »

I'm sure you remember quite a lot of school is learning by rote. Songs, poetry, rhymes, memorising pieces for literacy... Theorems for mathematics.

Indoctrination is where you exclude or prevent learning. Where's the exclusion there?

I would be very slow to prevent children from having anything to do with any religion, or trying to pretend it doesn't exist by shielding them from even seeing/reading the texts. They're going to encounter it a lot as adults if they ever travel outside their front door.

That is absolutely fine, but it shouldn't be exclusive to Catholicism, as is the norm here.

Tasden

pwurple wrote: »

I would be very slow to prevent children from having anything to do with any religion, or trying to pretend it doesn't exist by shielding them from even seeing/reading the texts. They're going to encounter it a lot as adults if they ever travel outside their front door.

Being taught a prayer by heart and being told what to believe- jesus did this etc- as if it is fact is very different to learning formulas etc.

And not wanting that aspect of RE is not the same as trying to shield a child from the existence of religion.

mikom

pwurple wrote: »

I'm sure you remember quite a lot of school is learning by rote. Songs, poetry, rhymes, memorising pieces for literacy... Theorems for mathematics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPpv9lAtr8M

maria34

im not religious nor irish. my daughter went to catholic school because all schools in ireland have some kind of religion and we arent religious at all (dont believe in god), so she needed to go somewhere didnt she? she was teached to believe in god which i didnt mind (well they could be less pushy with all that religion stuff, but hey it was my choice to move here and she wanted to do that so why not) she didnt get christened and didnt have communion. nobody told me she should, nobody bullied her, she wasnt left out as they had some other studies going on in school while everyone else went to church to practise and prepare. her friends are catholics (dont think many of them practise tho) and now she is going to Church of Ireland school and doesnt feel left out there either. irish people are nicer than in any other country i have been. well portugese are lovely too :-)

oo ya she didnt get money, that was her only concern.

vicwatson

I'm surprised the word "brainwashing" hasn't come up yet.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

I'm sure you remember quite a lot of school is learning by rote. Songs, poetry, rhymes, memorising pieces for literacy... Theorems for mathematics.

Indoctrination is where you exclude or prevent learning. Where's the exclusion there?

I would be very slow to prevent children from having anything to do with any religion, or trying to pretend it doesn't exist by shielding them from even seeing/reading the texts. They're going to encounter it a lot as adults if they ever travel outside their front door.

I know you call yourself atheist Christian or some other such thing. And you don't mind bringing you children to mass and letting some religion rub off on them. Not everyone makes the same choices. I'm not trying to pretend it doesn't exist, but nor should I be the one explaining the difference between fact and indoctrination to my children.
Religious indoctrination made me feel bad about myself, and I went to a very a la carte school and had a la carte parents. I don't want my children to learn they need to recite prayers to a supernatural deity and that they have sins they need to tell a man in a church about. If parents want their children learning doctrine, rather than learning about doctrine as part of a course on religion in terms of its influence on the world, they should do it on their own time. Its not like most religions don't have buildings available to them for indoctrination already, like churches and temples and mosques.

vicwatson

maria34 wrote: »

oo ya she didnt get money, that was her only concern.

Ya see this is what it's all about for children , they'll live a grand life without religion, but a better way would be to educate them about ALL religions and NONE IMO. I would like to see that but don't think I will in my lifetime unfortunately (not in Ireland anyways)

CarpeDiem85

The loveliest, most positive and memorable times for me as a teacher were when I taught the Alive O programme. I taught in a Sisters of Charity School for 5 years. When you walked into the school in the morning, the positive atmosphere lifted your spirits. The charity, friendly and giving nature of the nuns created this. It was give, give, give. The were the people who thought about the children who never received a Christmas from Santa at home, not because of beliefs but because of substance abuse at home etc. I wish every school was like that. It was a ray of sunshine. I'm saying this as a Catholic but I'm not devout. The point I'm making is that they practiced what they preached and I think that's important.

byhookorbycrook

Reminder to all poster to keep it civil please. If you want to wander off on a tangent, take it elsewhere. Just to mention once again that there are NO NON-DENOM primary schools in Ireland at present. ET and some Gaelscoileanna are MULTI-denom so have to teach some form of religion.