Unions Still Relevant

Was reading an article about the proposed Dunns strike and one thing that struck me was that the article stated that only 40% of the staff are in a union.

I do think they have a place but they maybe not as much as in the past.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Yeah.

BoJack Horseman

Public & semi state sectors still enjoy high unionisation.

They have all but abandoned the private sector, especially in companies less than 20 years old.

But they are very much still relevant.

Gumbo

Generally the new staff don't join the unions. I'm PS and not in any union.

jank

It is a trend in the western world. New companies in ICT like Google and Facebook has shown the way in how to treat employees without a need for a union to interfere in every little business decision. Businesses need to be able to react faster to an ever changing business environment and frankly Unions showed for example in the UK and France that they cause more harm then good and get in the way. What good is it if you are in a union but your job is gone to Asia? See Detroit for example. The automobile industry is dead there, yet in states which is more employer friendly which has right to work legislation on its books the automobile industry is booming, people are at work, getting a good wage often higher in Unionised states.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/01/27/these-5-maps-show-unions-are-losing-ground-in-the-states/

Similar things are seen here in Australia. The biggest losers are of course the officials who run the unions (less pay, less power) and the political parties who earn huge amounts due to donations e.g. In Australia its the Australian Labour Party, in the USA, its the Democrats, In Ireland, its Labour/FF.
The big winners are the consumer, the tax payer, the employee over the longer term and liberty itself as we don't have un-elected union big wigs holding the country to ransom.

FreudianSlippers

Ireland has so many pro-worker laws on the books, that the inherent purpose of unions is moot IMHO. If I joined the Public or Semi-State I wouldn't join.

mountai

Of course unions are relevant . How could the massive salaries of their leaders be paid without lots of members!!

gandalf

TBH if the Government stepped in and sorted out the "zero hour" contract disgrace that is blighting mainly the retail sector then they will be doing everyone a major favour.

The unions in this country are nearly as out of touch with the everyday needs of the people who are working as the government are.

AndonHandon

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/new-mortgage-rules-will-confine-house-purchases-to-the-rich-1.2072412

New mortgage rules ‘will confine house purchases to the rich’
Siptu president calls on Central Bank to abandon 20% plan

While I don't agree with the comments of the Siptu president, he is speaking on behalf of a large number of working people in this country. It is important to have 'the other side' of a debate, or at least just a contribution to some side. However, in saying this, it is important to note that just because he represents a large number of people it does not mean that what he says should be given too much importance.

hfallada

AndonHandon wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/new-mortgage-rules-will-confine-house-purchases-to-the-rich-1.2072412



While I don't agree with the comments of the Siptu president, he is speaking on behalf of a large number of working people in this country. It is important to have 'the other side' of a debate, or at least just a contribution to some side. However, in saying this, it is important to note that just because he represents a large number of people it does not mean that what he says should be given too much importance.

The Unions only concern is 'face'. They are only concerned with ensuring their members get the most of societies will contributing the least. I have yet to hear any union proposal that benefit anyone one, other than union members. Most of what they say is to look to the members. The unions are talking about economic growth and wage increase. Yet are in a deflationary period and wage increases are a ridiculous suggestion.

Unions served a purpose when workers were exploited.But with all the free labour services available, workers arent really exploited anymore. eg LRC,

end of the road

jank wrote: »

we don't have un-elected union big wigs holding the country to ransom.

exactly. that never happens. unions are very much needed and always will be. for all their faults, they protect their members well.

end of the road

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Ireland has so many pro-worker laws on the books, that the inherent purpose of unions is moot IMHO. If I joined the Public or Semi-State I wouldn't join.

employment law on its own doesn't always work. you need someone to enforce it. unions do that. up to you to join or not but i would advize you to join if your in a job that has one for your own protection at least

end of the road

hfallada wrote: »

The Unions only concern is 'face'. They are only concerned with ensuring their members get the most of societies will contributing the least. I have yet to hear any union proposal that benefit anyone one, other than union members. Most of what they say is to look to the members. The unions are talking about economic growth and wage increase. Yet are in a deflationary period and wage increases are a ridiculous suggestion.

Unions served a purpose when workers were exploited.But with all the free labour services available, workers arent really exploited anymore. eg LRC,

how do you know workers aren't being exploited? all these free services are one part of the protection of workers, but they on their own won't always work. so therefore unions where they exist are needed

mountai

so therefore unions where they exist are needed




Rubbish --- Why did the unions ever let Zero Hour contracts come into the workplace??

kippy

mountai wrote: »

so therefore unions where they exist are needed




Rubbish --- Why did the unions ever let Zero Hour contracts come into the workplace??

I suspect the areas these contracts are most in use aren't that heavily unionised.

FreudianSlippers

end of the road wrote: »

employment law on its own doesn't always work. you need someone to enforce it. unions do that. up to you to join or not but i would advize you to join if your in a job that has one for your own protection at least

A lawyers union. lol I'm sure that would be unintentionally hilarious.

efb

Trying living on a 15 hour week's wages and you'll understand why unions are nessecary

chrysagon

Im in a union, and work with a very large company, and we find the union in general , lazy, and provide nothing but lip service, yet take 300 euro a yr from my wages,but we are told to stay in it as a safety net"just in case".

jank

end of the road wrote: »

exactly. that never happens. unions are very much needed and always will be. for all their faults, they protect their members well.

Never happens eh? ESB, CIE, teachers unions.... All within the last year or so.

Macy0161

Unions are still relevant. Unfortunately, many of those in large multinationals don't see the benefits of being organised until it's too late. For example, the Dell workers in Limerick may have been better off, or certainly quicker off the mark, if they'd been organised from the start rather than trying to do it after the fact.

I don't really get people giving out about "their" union. They are the Union - if you're not happy get involved and change things!

And just to point out that the largest Trade Union in the country is 2/3's Private Sector, despite the impression given that they only represent the public sector.

jank

If Dell were unionised they would have been out of Ireland sooner than 2008 or probably never have set up shop in the first place. It is a mistake to think that if Dell Limerick had a unions that they would still be making PC's there today. It totally ignores the 2015 IT market for consumables where phones and tablets are the big sellers, not PC's and laptops. Are they even making PC's in Poland any more. I don't think they are. Ireland does not exist in a vacuum.

The ICT industry is arguably one of the best paid industries in Ireland which offer fantastic conditions and benefits. None of them are unionised.

kippy

I agree Jank,
At the end of the day Unions cannot stop companies shutting up shop due to a change in cost base etc.
All they can do is make sure the members get a decent payoff if and when that happens.

There is a strong chance a lot of large multinationals would never have setup here if those areas were strongly unionised.
As has been stated earlier unions CAN do good however they can often hold up changes in relation to work practices that are required for the organisation to change focus, save money or in general secure members jobs. It all depends on the unions.

Farmer Pudsey

Macy0161 wrote: »

Unions are still relevant. Unfortunately, many of those in large multinationals don't see the benefits of being organised until it's too late. For example, the Dell workers in Limerick may have been better off, or certainly quicker off the mark, if they'd been organised from the start rather than trying to do it after the fact.

I don't really get people giving out about "their" union. They are the Union - if you're not happy get involved and change things!

And just to point out that the largest Trade Union in the country is 2/3's Private Sector, despite the impression given that they only represent the public sector.

The reason Dell left was during the tiger era wages were climbing expodentially. They could not compete for semi skilled workers with the building sector. They highlighted this 2-3 years before they left the government of the day ignore it.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The reason Dell left was during the tiger era wages were climbing expodentially. They could not compete for semi skilled workers with the building sector. They highlighted this 2-3 years before they left the government of the day ignore it.

Dell left because their business model of customised order and delivery was not working and was losing market share. The skill levels and plant investment needed for the non-customised assembly was lower and the savings could not be found in Ireland.

end of the road

jank wrote: »

Never happens eh? ESB, CIE, teachers unions.... All within the last year or so.

there was no other option

end of the road

jank wrote: »

If Dell were unionised they would have been out of Ireland sooner than 2008 or probably never have set up shop in the first place. It is a mistake to think that if Dell Limerick had a unions that they would still be making PC's there today. It totally ignores the 2015 IT market for consumables where phones and tablets are the big sellers, not PC's and laptops. Are they even making PC's in Poland any more. I don't think they are. Ireland does not exist in a vacuum.

The ICT industry is arguably one of the best paid industries in Ireland which offer fantastic conditions and benefits. None of them are unionised.

that just happens to be out of luck more then anything. the fact they aren't unionized means such conditions can be taken away at will

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

Dell left because their business model of customised order and delivery was not working and was losing market share. The skill levels and plant investment needed for the non-customised assembly was lower and the savings could not be found in Ireland.

My understanding was that the biggest saving was in labour costs. Now I know that labour is much cheaper in Poland than Ireland. However Dell was the tip of the iceberg at the time we were losing projects hand over foot not jsut to Poland but to Scotland and the UK.. Our costs wereway out of line compared to other destinations.

It was touch and go that we did not lose more high profile company's. Being unionised would have little bearing on saving projects. Some one stated the largest trade union SIPTU has 2/3 private sector members. However most of these would be in traditional sectors. Unions in general have failed to develop into new industry's. In general they are jaded structures unable to be flexible enough for modern company structures. Th

Macy0161

My point wasn't really about whether being unionised would've saved the jobs or not. My point was that as soon as the jobs were lost, the workers did organise to fight for better redundancy, training opportunities etc.!

I would also add, that many "professions" are organised too, as are many businesses. Unions are dirty word, Professional Bodies and Trade Associations are grand though. It only appears to be unnecessary and outdated for ordinary workers to be organised.

end of the road

Macy0161 wrote: »

My point wasn't really about whether being unionised would've saved the jobs or not. My point was that as soon as the jobs were lost, the workers did organise to fight for better redundancy, training opportunities etc.!

I would also add, that many "professions" are organised too, as are many businesses. Unions are dirty word, Professional Bodies and Trade Associations are grand though. It only appears to be unnecessary and outdated for ordinary workers to be organised.

and it will be to their detriment

Whiteladder

Macy0161 wrote: »

Unions are still relevant. Unfortunately, many of those in large multinationals don't see the benefits of being organised until it's too late. For example, the Dell workers in Limerick may have been better off, or certainly quicker off the mark, if they'd been organised from the start rather than trying to do it after the fact.

I don't really get people giving out about "their" union. They are the Union - if you're not happy get involved and change things!

And just to point out that the largest Trade Union in the country is 2/3's Private Sector, despite the impression given that they only represent the public sector.

People are well entitled to give out about ‘their’ union; they are after all PAID members. Where on the membership form of any union does it state you have to become involved in any specific capacity to have a voice? What makes the union beyond reproach?

Woodround

Macy0161 wrote: »

Unions are still relevant. Unfortunately, many of those in large multinationals don't see the benefits of being organised until it's too late. For example, the Dell workers in Limerick may have been better off, or certainly quicker off the mark, if they'd been organised from the start rather than trying to do it after the fact.

I don't really get people giving out about "their" union. They are the Union - if you're not happy get involved and change things!

And just to point out that the largest Trade Union in the country is 2/3's Private Sector, despite the impression given that they only represent the public sector.

Unions had their place in history and the union members of old can justifiably claim credit for many of the improvements we enjoy today. Unfortunately, in relatively recent times the union became absorbed with ensuring their own existence and promoting the individual careers of their more ‘active’ members rather than improving the lot for those ‘ordinary’ workers you mention. Many of the more ‘active’ members are in situ as it offers them protection from the consequences of not actually doing their job. I’ve seen it first-hand myself whereby an active union member at a lower grade and doing very little on a daily basis eyes an upcoming post with an attractive salary; uses the union to get the position at the expense of other suitably qualified individuals, making the promise to get adequately trained for the position in the process. ‘Active’ member gets job, does nothing, stifles any attempt to facilitate training, complains that they weren’t properly shown how to do the job so gets a position with ‘reduced responsibilities’ but on the same salary! All this while your ‘ordinary’ worker has either a) lost out on the opportunity for promotion, or b) is left with extra workload because the person that is supposedly ‘union’ oriented doesn’t actually believe in that philosophy, particularly when it comes to sharing the workload. ‘Active’ member ironically steps back from their ‘Active role’ once they have benefitted, but may take it up again if needed for self interest reasons in the future.

If Union is a dirty word well it is the Unions own fault that it is so for allowing itself to be infiltrated by those with only self-interest at heart. There are many many good people in the Union, who approach issues in a fair and even manner, but it is like any aspect of society, there are always a few on the other side that f*ck it up for everyone.

Multinationals don't see the benefits, not only for the above reasons, but if you go back to Britain, in previous years, because many unions operate at a national level with national goals and agendas, regardless of how good an employer you were you might still have your workers called out on strike by their national union leadership as part of an action arising from issues which had absolutely nothing to do with your company.

I'm by no means anti-union, I am however anti union self interest and infiltration. Most of these issues have led them to being less relevant and so having a greatly diminished role in most developed countries today. This is reflected in their shrinking membership in many countries.

jank

end of the road wrote: »

there was no other option

Eh, how about the option to not go on Strike and hold the country to Ransom?

jank

end of the road wrote: »

that just happens to be out of luck more then anything. the fact they aren't unionized means such conditions can be taken away at will

Luck? No sorry, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Companies like Google empower their employees to be innovative, creative and productive. They want their employees to have a passion for what they do. Google employees can spend a % of their work week engaged on a side project, be it charity work, community work or something else. Afaik Google Earth/Maps was born from this.

There is no luck about this or their success. The environment that Google and other leading ICT companies create is carefully crafted in an effort to being the best minds together and let nothing get in the way of creating the new and best technology the world has seen. Google started out as a search engine, they now have an OS, tons of apps on the 'cloud' for anyone to use. They are well on their way to releasing driver-less technology. Google glass is in prototype mode. Google could be also be offering Insurance soon.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/11/google-auto-insurance-coming-soon/

16 years ago they didn't exist, now they are one of the leading companies in the entire world, literately changing it as well. They offer their staff plenty of perks, like free food and beer. Why in the hell would a Google employee want to join a Union? Honestly, why! Google and similar ICT companies exist in the 21st century, Unions are a through back to the 19th century.

chopper6

jank wrote: »

Luck? No sorry, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Companies like Google empower their employees to be innovative, creative and productive. They want their employees to have a passion for what they do. Google employees can spend a % of their work week engaged on a side project, be it charity work, community work or something else. Afaik Google Earth/Maps was born from this.

There is no luck about this or their success. The environment that Google and other leading ICT companies create is carefully crafted in an effort to being the best minds together and let nothing get in the way of creating the new and best technology the world has seen. Google started out as a search engine, they now have an OS, tons of apps on the 'cloud' for anyone to use. They are well on their way to releasing driver-less technology. Google glass is in prototype mode. Google could be also be offering Insurance soon.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/11/google-auto-insurance-coming-soon/

16 years ago they didn't exist, now they are one of the leading companies in the entire world, literately changing it as well. They offer their staff plenty of perks, like free food and beer. Why in the hell would a Google employee want to join a Union? Honestly, why! Google and similar ICT companies exist in the 21st century, Unions are a through back to the 19th century.

Google wont be around forever, despite your gushing praise of their fabulousness..they're not an irish company they're an American multinational and as such have no allegiance to whatever company they're operating in.

A union prescence might just get the staff a better severance package when they eventually relocate to another country.

jank

Why would an Irish company have more allegiance to Irish staff than an American company? Do Ryanair treat their Irish employees better than UK employees?

If there was ever a Union involved in day to day operations in Google or a similar ICT company then they will no longer be the same company and certainly won't be as successful as they are now. and would only hasten their departure. I would wager 99% of employees in Google are happy that there are no Union involvement.

chopper6

jank wrote: »

I would wager 99% of employees in Google are happy that there are no Union involvement.

Wager how happy they are when they're told to take a paycut or leave.

end of the road

jank wrote: »

Eh, how about the option to not go on Strike and hold the country to Ransom?

the country is never held to ransom. strikes have to happen for the greater good and to ensure slavery never comes back

end of the road

jank wrote: »

Luck? No sorry, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Companies like Google empower their employees to be innovative, creative and productive. They want their employees to have a passion for what they do. Google employees can spend a % of their work week engaged on a side project, be it charity work, community work or something else. Afaik Google Earth/Maps was born from this.

There is no luck about this or their success. The environment that Google and other leading ICT companies create is carefully crafted in an effort to being the best minds together and let nothing get in the way of creating the new and best technology the world has seen. Google started out as a search engine, they now have an OS, tons of apps on the 'cloud' for anyone to use. They are well on their way to releasing driver-less technology. Google glass is in prototype mode. Google could be also be offering Insurance soon.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/11/google-auto-insurance-coming-soon/

16 years ago they didn't exist, now they are one of the leading companies in the entire world, literately changing it as well. They offer their staff plenty of perks, like free food and beer. Why in the hell would a Google employee want to join a Union? Honestly, why! Google and similar ICT companies exist in the 21st century, Unions are a through back to the 19th century.

unions aren't a throw back to the 19th century, they are in the 21st century and are necessary. not every company is like google. so i stand by my point that for the employees of the likes of google, its down to luck, and such conditions could be taken away at will

meglome

There was a time when unions stood up for the working man. Now it's about gouging employers/the state as much as possible to justify their existence. The costs of which we as a nation have to bear. They had their faces in the trough all through our 'boom' and were as responsible as any group for what ultimately happened.

How can anyone respect our unions when they have protected vested interests over the well being of the whole state.


A good friend of mine if relatively senior in a union. As shop steward in his old job he used to spend a lot of his time defending people who in the real world would have been sacked for incompetence/misconduct.

Godge

meglome wrote: »

There was a time when unions stood up for the working man. Now it's about gouging employers/the state as much as possible to justify their existence. The costs of which we as a nation have to bear. They had their faces in the trough all through our 'boom' and were as responsible as any group for what ultimately happened.

How can anyone respect our unions when they have protected vested interests over the well being of the whole state.


A good friend of mine if relatively senior in a union. As shop steward in his old job he used to spend a lot of his time defending people who in the real world would have been sacked for incompetence/misconduct.

If they stand up for the working man, then they are about gouging employers as much as they can!!!

Timberrrrrrrr

They should all be disbanded.

end of the road

meglome wrote: »

A good friend of mine if relatively senior in a union. As shop steward in his old job he used to spend a lot of his time defending people who in the real world would have been sacked for incompetence/misconduct.

or maybe in the real world they weren't guilty of those things. incompetence and misconduct can be used for a lot of things these days including getting rid of someone the employer doesn't like

end of the road

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

They should all be disbanded.

can't be done as some employers can't be trusted. 1 untrustworthy employer is 1 to many

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

can't be done as some employers can't be trusted. 1 untrustworthy employer is 1 to many

But union bosses are all fluffy and nice and can be trusted :rolleyes:


Every shop steward i have ever met has been a trouble maker and caused more ****e than anyone else.

meglome

Godge wrote: »

If they stand up for the working man, then they are about gouging employers as much as they can!!!

There is a difference between a man who works hard but struggles as he's been underpaid/mistreated, and making sure he has two foreign holidays this year.

meglome

end of the road wrote: »

or maybe in the real world they weren't guilty of those things. incompetence and misconduct can be used for a lot of things these days including getting rid of someone the employer doesn't like

As I understand it they were. Once the **** started they'd scream for the shop steward as they were guilty. They had a good idea once the union got involved they'd never get sacked.

markpb

chopper6 wrote: »

a union prescence might just get the staff a better severance package when they eventually relocate to another country.

It's equally likely that Google would view the introduction of a union as a reason to hurry up their exit from Ireland, costing those employees far more in the long run.

Besides, I'm lost about why people believe unions can negotiate a better severance package when a company is folding. What can they do if the company say no - will they go on strike?

end of the road

markpb wrote: »

What can they do if the company say no.... strike?

oh i'm sure there is plenty they can do. if a company says no strike that should make one question how they may treat the employees in the future.

c_man

chopper6 wrote: »

Google wont be around forever, despite your gushing praise of their fabulousness..they're not an irish company they're an American multinational and as such have no allegiance to whatever company they're operating in.

A union prescence might just get the staff a better severance package when they eventually relocate to another country.

A union for software developers... I'm sorry but that's plain ridiculous, and I'd pity the poor fool to even try to organise it. This isn't a stab at unions, I appreciate they have their place and maybe I could see your point if you're talking about MNC manufacturing jobs here (I dunno, I'm not overly familiar with the setup around these in Ireland).

markpb

end of the road wrote: »

oh i'm sure there is plenty they can do. if a company says no strike that should make one question how they may treat the employees in the future.

Maybe you misread my question. If a company is *leaving Ireland*, what can the union do to get a better severance package? Striking is useless, everyone is out of a job anyway. Treating employees badly isn't a concern, they won't be hiring anyone else in Ireland anyway.

Thankfully I've never been on the receiving end of a redundancy but I have a feeling that the unions are all huff and puff at that stage. I suspect that anyone trying to introduce one into a company when their only concern is about a severance package when the company are shutting down is about to learn the meaning of self fulfilling prophesy.

The problem with unions is that while they definitely have their use and their place, they also carry the reputation of making employees inflexible and hard to work with. This is why people are critical of them and why lots of companies won't have anything to do with them.

Blue Magic

mariaalice wrote: »

Was reading an article about the proposed Dunns strike and one thing that struck me was that the article stated that only 40% of the staff are in a union.

I do think they have a place but they maybe not as much as in the past.

Personally think that the Irish Farmers Union is the only one worth a toss at this stage... Teachers Unions will be tested for usefulness too in coming months.

The rest are a waste of time at this stage to be honest!!