Saracens vs Munster, Sat 17 January 1pm; BT Sport

thomond2006

Saracens:
15. Alex Goode; 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Marcelo Bosch, 12. Brad Barritt, 11. David Strettle; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Richard Wigglesworth;
1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Jamie George, 3. Petrus du Plessis, 4. Jim Hamilton, 5. Alistair Hargreaves (c), 6. Kelly Brown, 7. Jacques Burger, 8. Billy Vunipola

16. Brett Sharman, 17. Richard Barrington, 18. James Johnston, 19. Maro Itoje, 20. Ernst Joubert, 21. Neil de Kock, 22. Charlie Hodgson, 23. Chris Wyles

Munster:
Felix Jones; Andrew Conway, Pat Howard, Denis Hurley, Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams;
James Cronin, Duncan Casey, BJ Botha; Dave Foley, Paul O'Connell; Peter O'Mahony Capt., Tommy O'Donnell, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Eusebio Guinazu, John Ryan, Stephen Archer, Billy Holland, Dave O'Callaghan, Ronan O'Mahony, JJ Hanrahan, Keith Earls.

Current Pool 1 Standings:
Clermont 14 (+39)
Saracens 13 (+13)
Munster 10 (-2)
Sale Sharks 2 (-50)

It's do or die for Munster at Allianz Park! Munster travel to Barnet knowing a win is a must in order to keep knockout qualification on track. With Clermont fancied to win at Sale and follow up with a win at home to Saracens, Munster cannot expect any favours from others as their double header defeats to Clermont leave them no alternative but to win both remaining matches.

The big news for Munster is Conor Murray's absence through injury so Duncan Williams makes his first start in Europe. With Cathal Sheridan also injured and no other scrum-half in the ERCC squad it means there is no scrum-half cover on the bench. Denis Hurley starts at 12 ahead of JJ Hanrahan to offer his bulk in defence against a bruising Saracens attack. Keith Earls remains on the bench as Andrew Conway returns to start on the wing. Dave O'Callaghan has earned a spot on the bench after impressing in the Pro12 since returning from injury with Robin Copeland once again forced to miss out due to a minor injury.

thomond2006

Munster: Felix Jones; Andrew Conway, Pat Howard, Denis Hurley, Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; James Cronin, Duncan Casey, BJ Botha; Dave Foley, Paul O'Connell; Peter O'Mahony Capt., Tommy O'Donnell, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Eusebio Guinazu, John Ryan, Stephen Archer, Billy Holland, Dave O'Callaghan, Ronan O'Mahony, JJ Hanrahan, Keith Earls.

total former

Munster

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster: Felix Jones; Andrew Conway, Pat Howard, Denis Hurley, Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; James Cronin, Duncan Casey, BJ Botha; Dave Foley, Paul O'Connell; Peter O'Mahony Capt., Tommy O'Donnell, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Eusebio Guinazu, John Ryan, Stephen Archer, Billy Holland, Dave O'Callaghan, Ronan O'Mahony, JJ Hanrahan, Keith Earls.

No major surprises there really

Only question is what happens if Williams gets injured - JJ?

john kinsella

Munster

Murray is a massive loss.

I fear for Munster here but I suppose if anyone can do it Munster can.

Another miracle match with the bonus point would be nice.

thomond2006

john kinsella wrote: »

Murray is a massive loss.

I fear for Munster here but I suppose if anyone can do it Munster can.

Another miracle match with the bonus point would be nice.

What I'd do for another Perpignan 2009 kind of result!

shuffol

Wonder will we see Williams come in for any special attention.

Cookiemunster

thomond2006 wrote: »

What I'd do for another Perpignan 2009 kind of result!

Nah, we want a repeat of Milton Keynes!

thomond2006

shuffol wrote: »

Wonder will we see Williams come in for any special attention.

I imagine the Saracens backrow will look to 'sack' him quite a bit! We'll need POM at his pashunate best!

durkadurka

Defo out according to mail I just got from Munster Rugby

total former

Munster

15. Alex Goode; 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Marcelo Bosch, 12. Brad Barritt, 11. David Strettle; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Richard Wigglesworth; 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Jamie George, 3. Petrus du Plessis, 4. Jim Hamilton, 5. Alistair Hargreaves (c), 6. Kelly Brown, 7. Jacques Burger, 8. Billy Vunipola

16. Brett Sharman, 17. Richard Barrington, 18. James Johnston, 19. Maro Itoje, 20. Ernst Joubert, 21. Neil de Kock, 22. Charlie Hodgson, 23. Chris Wyles

Pretty much full strength, minus Brits and Kruis.

Mahatma Geansai

Is Ronan O'Mahoney going to be covering scrumhalf? Odd that he would be named at 21 if he isn't.

I'm surprised that we didn't opt for a 6/2 split on the bench actually.

thomond2006

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Is Ronan O'Mahoney going to be covering scrumhalf? Odd that he would be named at 21 if he isn't.

I'm surprised that we didn't opt for a 6/2 split on the bench actually.

If Earls isn't right for a full match yet it would be a risk having a 6/2 split.

Tomtom364

I think our back up Scrum half is most likely to be Zebo. He stands in at scrum half and first receiver alot during games, and with Ronan o'mahony on the bench at 21 could see him coming on to allow Zebo to move in to 9 if required.

I think the biggest deciding factor if Williams has to go off for any reason will actually be the forwards and ruck speed. If Munster can get on top and get quick ball from the ruck I'd have a lot of confidence in JJ/Earls/Zebo getting the ball out to Keatly cleanly and accurately, as well as seeing other options or making a sniping run (Earls sniping a gap around a ruck could be lethal).

Its if the ball is messy I think the stand in might struggle.

peckerhead

Our kicking game will be critical too, the more I look at that Sarries lineup.

Big ask, taking all the other factors into consideration. But shur when did that ever not apply, at this stage of the championship?

total former

Munster

shuffol wrote: »

Wonder will we see Williams come in for any special attention.

Jacque Burger is going to absolutely cream him high and late at least once.

However, I wouldn't class that as "special" attention from Burger, just run of the mill.

Rattlehead_ie

Voted with heart on this one.
This is going to be a close game for sure. Saries obviously are favorites, but thats never got in Munsters way before.

awec

Munster

I just can't see it happening with Murray out.

Probably close but no cigar.

Tomtom364

total former wrote: »

Jacque Burger is going to absolutely cream him high and late at least once.

However, I wouldn't class that as "special" attention from Burger, just run of the mill.

Thankfully Williams is a tough enough scrum half. Certainly isn't afraid of the hits.
But POM, TOD, Stander really need to be on his shoulder and provide support as sarries would be stupid not to target him.

lazybones32

JJ began rugby 'life' as a scrum half, so he could fill the gap if needed. DW will get his chance to prove himself behind a strong pack and since his contract expires in 6 months, I think he'll show if he's worth keeping. It's bad form to entertain ideas of Sarries focusing on any player, in order to get him removed from the pitch via stretcher, etc. C'mon Munster

CatFromHue

The game plan in the last meeting was fairly limited so I guess it'll be the same this time around so I can see Williams fitting without any problem to it.

thomond2006

W: 78-7 London Welsh (H)
W: 23-25 Newcastle (A)
W: 22-6 London Irish (H)
L: 25-23 Gloucester (A)

Saracens' last four results

Fireball07

CatFromHue wrote: »

The game plan in the last meeting was fairly limited so I guess it'll be the same this time around so I can see Williams fitting without any problem to it.

How well the plan was executed was why we won and Williams' execution has never been as good as Murray's in any facet of play.

His box-kicking is just not in the same class at all, and is much more likely to be blocked. He's going to need serious protection from the back row all over the pitch. And even a slightly misthrown pass could lose you distance on a clearing kick by the out-half.

I just hope he puts in a big performance, it's such a critical position.

CatFromHue

Those 4 clubs make up the bottom 4 of the Aviva.

phog

If we had played Cardiff last week on the artificial field and had started Williams as scrumhalf I'd have a lot more belief in thinking a win is on the cards for us.

Both teams kicked a lot last time around and I think we won the aerial battle, I doubt Sarries will kick as much this time around.

The only real aspect of Williams game that I don't rate is his box kicking, not as accurate as Murray's.

thomond2006

This is essentially Williams playing for his future with Munster, that is if TOL does sign.

Akrasia

Williams needs to play the best game of his career tomorrow.

When Williams plays well, he's actually not that bad, it's just that he seems to always make a couple of unforced errors in every game and against a team like Saracens, that can gift them tries

On the positive side, Williams is capable of breaking lines and creating chances and he did play well against ulster and leinster around christmas

Fireball07

Williams isn't terrible, but he's nowhere near as good as Murray. He is error-prone... I've seen him play very well but more times, I've seen him play just alright with a couple of mistakes.

And with no one on the bench, he not only can't have an off-day, he needs to remain injury-free too.

blackdog1

Fireball07 wrote: »

Williams isn't terrible, but he's nowhere near as good as Murray. He is error-prone... I've seen him play very well but more times, I've seen him play just alright with a couple of mistakes.

And with no one on the bench, he not only can't have an off-day, he needs to remain injury-free too.

Williams was riddled with injury for years. It's only now he's getting an injury free run. He was always a huge talent in his early days.

vienne86

Munster

blackdog1 wrote: »

Williams was riddled with injury for years. It's only now he's getting an injury free run. He was always a huge talent in his early days.

I really hope he plays a blinder tomorrow. He'll be targeted, but I'd say the flankers will be ready for that and will look after him. Very tough for Munster; awful awful luck losing Murray.

RuggieBear

I think Williams will surprise a lot of people and while no Murray is a significant blow, I reckon he will have a decent game. First European start will be motivation enough.

peckerhead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYjSnC0oKSk

"To the brave and the faithful... ", etc.

Fireball07

peckerhead wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYjSnC0oKSk

"To the brave and the faithful... ", etc.

That was an intense match, really shouldn't have been so close tbh, we let them back into it and gifted them an early try (brilliantly taken tbf).


But look at David Wallace's contributions even in that short clip. Howlett's break, looked a little isolated, Wallace was there as any good 7 should be to make the clearout and Quinlan walks through for the try. Then he gets over the ball to win the penalty in the last minute. What an immense player.


Lovely flat pass and little break by ROG for the 1st try too.

Molester Stallone II

10 man rugby is the order of the day, POM , TOD and CJ Saviour to be our heroes......and Jones to score the winning try of course!

RuggieBear

Fireball07 wrote: »

That was an intense match, really shouldn't have been so close tbh, we let them back into it and gifted them an early try (brilliantly taken tbf).


But look at David Wallace's contributions even in that short clip. Howlett's break, looked a little isolated, Wallace was there as any good 7 should be to make the clearout and Quinlan walks through for the try. Then he gets over the ball to win the penalty in the last minute. What an immense player.


Lovely flat pass and little break by ROG for the 1st try too.

Richard hill was immense in that match (and he was crocked too). One of the all time great performances

dubal

I love the optimism, but this is bridge too far.
Losing Bp would be an achievement.
Dubal

CatFromHue

I think Munster are going to win.

When you look at the team sheets for example there's nothing in it.

case885

peckerhead wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYjSnC0oKSk

"To the brave and the faithful... ", etc.

Great support there that day, same tomorrow i bet.

phog

case885 wrote: »

Great support there that day, same tomorrow i bet.

There was 500 at the Q&A tonight, fair indication that they'll be sizable Munster crowd at the game. Hope they have something to cheer about.

case885

I know Murray is a great player but if Williams supplies quick ball and the odd good box kick we shouldn't miss him too much, its the forwards that will win us the game. Cronin and Casey are huge players to have back.

matthew8

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think Munster are going to win.

When you look at the team sheets for example there's nothing in it.

There's nothing in the forwards and most of the backs but Saracens have a massive advantage at 12, 13 and 9.

Fireball07

matthew8 wrote: »

There's nothing in the forwards and most of the backs but Saracens have a massive advantage at 12, 13 and 9.

I reckon we just about have the edge in the front 5 tbh. POC is the outstanding player there and we did beat them up front the last time, I do think Botha can put Mako under a lot of pressure at scrum-time. And Cronin is a good, solid scrummager.

They do have a very solid pack in general though, but our maul is a weapon. Their centres are better than ours, but I imagine our centres will be there mainly to take crash ball and to defend. Which is a pity for our back 3, whereas their back 3 will likely get more of a chance to attack.


Hard to know... we haven't been great away from home, but I'm hopeful.

shuffol

case885 wrote: »

I know Murray is a great player but if Williams supplies quick ball and the odd good box kick we shouldn't miss him too much, its the forwards that will win us the game. Cronin and Casey are huge players to have back.

That's a very simplistic way of evaluating Murrays contribution, he's among the best 9s in the world and is central to Munsters gameplan. Williams is one of the weaker backup 9s in the competition. Murrays presence and leadership alone will be sorely missed.

Bridge93

Saracens are arguably better in every back position bar maybe one so it's up front where Munster will have to do the majority of the work

case885

shuffol wrote: »

That's a very simplistic way of evaluating Murrays contribution, he's among the best 9s in the world and is central to Munsters gameplan. Williams is one of the weaker backup 9s in the competition. Murrays presence and leadership alone will be sorely missed.

That wasn't an evaluation of Murray's contribution its what williams will have to do well tomorrow. We can get by the game without Murray if Williams does the basics well nothing spectacular. Also he has improved considerably this season which is overlooked alot too.

phog

The sleep must have done me good, I'm hopeful again. G'wan Munster

phog

According to Twitter, it's bitterly cold and snowing in London. Hope that all weather pitch has undersoil heating.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

According to Twitter, it's bitterly cold and snowing in London. Hope that all weather pitch has undersoil heating.

Just woke up, looked out my window. Can confirm. Don't think I'll be leaving the house today!

Molester Stallone II

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just woke up, looked out my window. Can confirm. Don't think I'll be leaving the house today!

Leave the house? You won't even be getting out of your onesie!!

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

According to Twitter, it's bitterly cold and snowing in London. Hope that all weather pitch has undersoil heating.

It's a plastic 4G pitch. They don't need undersoil heating.

durkadurka

What if there's two inches if snow fall in the next hour ?

Cookiemunster

durkadurka wrote: »

What if there's two inches if snow fall in the next hour ?

Undersoild heating won't melt 2 inches of snow. It's ment to stop a pitch from freezing, which 4G pitches don't do.