Prepare drawings and submit planning application

vwt

Does anyone have a guideline price for an architect to prepare drawings and submit a planning application in South west Dublin.Ive spoke to two architects today and the prices seemed excessive.Is the recession officially over?
The extension in question is around 120sq ft to the side of our property and also tie into to the existing roof.Its basically just an extension of our sitting room,almost a perfect square.No further consultancy is needed after the planning application has been made.
Recommendations of reasonable architects by pm appreciated!

BryanF

What was quoted by the 2 architects (for design & planning only)?

vwt

First was 1200 excluding associated fees.(printing,newspaper notice,os maps etc)
Second was around 1300 all in.
I thought this was pretty expensive considering its a very small basic extension.

BryanF

1300 - costs = 1000 - vat 770 / time visiting/agreeing/surveying/drawing all elevations/plans/site/ revising/ submitting/ additional info : say 20hrs
Which is less than 40€ Hr and once tax, office overheads,software, membership, insurance, time spend quoting when the lead comes to nothing etc

vwt

Thanks for you reply Bryan.
I'm not sure how long it would take him/her to measure house but it's circa 800sq ft,single story with Apex roof,so couldn't be too long.
There really isn't any 'designing' involved,it's a square box added to our sitting room.I already have some sketches done.
So say site visit is max 2 hours.I was guessing to do drawings plus associated paperwork for planning permission would be maximum of 8 hours.So I was pricing it at over 100 per hour.
I was thinking actually maximum I could get it done for 800,maybe I was being unrealistic.

BryanF

Maybe so, I can't see the job, the client, the planner, the architect, the additional info...

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

Thanks for you reply Bryan.
I'm not sure how long it would take him/her to measure house but it's circa 800sq ft,single story with Apex roof,so couldn't be too long.
There really isn't any 'designing' involved,it's a square box added to our sitting room.I already have some sketches done.
So say site visit is max 2 hours.I was guessing to do drawings plus associated paperwork for planning permission would be maximum of 8 hours.So I was pricing it at over 100 per hour.
I was thinking actually maximum I could get it done for 800,maybe I was being unrealistic.

Initial site visit and full survey of house and site and locating all drainage on site. This has to be shown on the planning drawings. You need to know where you are discharging the roof drainage of the extension. Allow 3 hours for this minimum.

Then prep of drawings, Existing floor plans, site plan, elevations, sections and streets cape.
Then prep of proposed drawings, matching above except the proposal.

Then meet with client again to 100% confirm this is what they want.
Gathering all necessary documentation, osi maps, newspaper notice and lamination of site notice etc
Then lodge.

€800 would be a nixer price to be honest.

Drift

Just to add that I agree - the prices you got seem reasonable. The 1300 all in will be the cheaper of the two.

DOCARCH

Drift wrote: »

....the prices you got seem reasonable.

Very!

vwt

Thanks for all the replies. So it seems like a decent price after all.I did some reading on PP last night - is an accurate timescale 16 weeks from submitting planning application to commencing works accurate,presuming that there's no objections?.Also do you need to submit details of a registered contractor to before you start work.As I was getting ridiculously high building quotations I may be forced into employing tradesmen on an individual basis and project managing myself.

Bracken81

vwt wrote: »

First was 1200 excluding associated fees.(printing,newspaper notice,os maps etc)
Second was around 1300 all in.
I thought this was pretty expensive considering its a very small basic extension.

Regardless if the house extension shall be 120sqft or 3000sqft in size, their is still 50 hours of work minimum to the Architect.
Initial Designs, Liaise with Client & Finalise Designs.

For Planning Permission:
Plans, Elevations, Sections, Contiguous Elevations, Siteplan, Site location Maps, Site Notices, Newspaper Add, Application forms, etc......


1300 all in is a terrific price, especially for South dublin

Strolling Bones

I would have qouted €2k +VAT + you pay for OS maps , newspaper advert and council fee.

Just a comparator.

Because in my experience in SD one gets jerked around by LA officials and by obecting neighbours on jobs big or small- a total time sink.

Nothing is ever "simple"

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. So it seems like a decent price after all.I did some reading on PP last night - is an accurate timescale 16 weeks from submitting planning application to commencing works accurate,presuming that there's no objections?.Also do you need to submit details of a registered contractor to before you start work.As I was getting ridiculously high building quotations I may be forced into employing tradesmen on an individual basis and project managing myself.

• Lodge today.
• 8 weeks until decision.
• 4 weeks later for appeal period.
• 2 weeks notice to building control.

so assuming you have everything ready to go, and the builder can start on the day and your official documentation arrives within time and no objections, 14 weeks is the bare minimum amount of time from lodgemnt to commencement.

vwt wrote: »

Also do you need to submit details of a registered contractor to before you start work.

No, not at present, although the rules can change.

vwt

So I have to give two weeks notice before commencement of work?
There is no "builder" per say.
A local brick layer will be doing foundations,rising wall and block work.
Carpenter for roof etc,plasterer etc.
So do you need to submit details of the individuals doing the work or can I just notify them saying 'we' will begin work on 10/06/15 for example.

Bracken81

vwt wrote: »

So I have to give two weeks notice before commencement of work?
There is no "builder" per say.
A local brick layer will be doing foundations,rising wall and block work.
Carpenter for roof etc,plasterer etc.
So do you need to submit details of the individuals doing the work or can I just notify them saying 'we' will begin work on 10/06/15 for example.

Builders details do have to be stated on the Notice.

Generally a 14 day period when they receive the Commencement Notice until you can begin on site. Normally a €30 fee required with the notice too.

Check out Dubin city council/Fingal council etc for more information yourself.

Supertech

vwt wrote: »

So I have to give two weeks notice before commencement of work?
There is no "builder" per say.
A local brick layer will be doing foundations,rising wall and block work.
Carpenter for roof etc,plasterer etc.
So do you need to submit details of the individuals doing the work or can I just notify them saying 'we' will begin work on 10/06/15 for example.

In this case you will be the builder, as you will be coordinating the project on site, and you should therefore list yourself in this section on the Commencement Notice. The project appears to come under the Short Form Commencement Notice, so this is not a hugely onerous task in this case.

vwt

This was what I was confused about.
The fact that I am not a qualified or registered builder.I was presuming that they would be looking for a qualified and registered building contractor on the commencement notice or is it purely a clerical/legislative thing?

Drift

There's two different sets of rules depending on whether your extension is less than 40 square metres or not.

There's pages and pages about these new rules on this forum (just search for SI9 or BC(A)R 2014) but suffice it to say for your purposes make tripley sure that your extension is 39.9 square metres or less.

vwt

Drift wrote: »

There's two different sets of rules depending on whether your extension is less than 40 square metres or not.

There's pages and pages about these new rules on this forum (just search for SI9 or BC(A)R 2014) but suffice it to say for your purposes make tripley sure that your extension is 39.9 square metres or less.

Could you elaborate???
We have an existing extension to the rear of our property already.
Together with the proposed extension,the internal sqm comes to 39.75 sqm

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

So I have to give two weeks notice before commencement of work?
There is no "builder" per say.
A local brick layer will be doing foundations,rising wall and block work.
Carpenter for roof etc,plasterer etc.
So do you need to submit details of the individuals doing the work or can I just notify them saying 'we' will begin work on 10/06/15 for example.

You have to nominate one person that Building Control can contact and request details on how you will comply with the Building Regulations. If you plan on going direct labour, then that person will be you. But bear in mind if building control want info they will request it from you, if you are not competent enough to satisfy their demands, you will have to engage a professional to do it for you.

Commencement notices must be lodged online and you must register with the new BCMS system to do do. Also a fee of €30 applies.

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

Could you elaborate???
We have an existing extension to the rear of our property already.
Together with the proposed extension,the internal sqm comes to 39.75 sqm

Previous extension is irrelevant. Once you get planning for the new extension, the area of the new extension will be considered on the commencement notice.

What council area are you in.

vwt

Is it likey they would actually contact me looking for info on such a small build?
I won't be cutting corners in the build,everything will be done correctly I just don't want the extra hassle.
South dublin county council

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

Is it likey they would actually contact me looking for info on such a small build?
I won't be cutting corners in the build,everything will be done correctly I just don't want the extra hassle.
South dublin county council

It's possible. Who will certify it in compliance with building and planning regulations?

vwt

I honestly didn't know it had to be certified as it was an extension to a thirty year old house.The rest of the house wouldn't even come close to current building regs
I'm not sure,maybe ill have to get through a builder if its gona be this difficult.

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

I honestly didn't know it had to be certified as it was an extension to a thirty year old house.The rest of the house wouldn't even come close to current building regs
I'm not sure,maybe ill have to get through a builder if its gona be this difficult.

A builder cannot certify it. You need independent advice and guidance that will pull up the builder in any wrong doings.

Also as you may or may not be aware, you have to get qualified registered electricians for the wiring etc nowadays.

Also, even though the house is old, the new works need to compley with current regulations.

DOCARCH

...and...you will need to comply with Health & Safety legislation: http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Construction/homeowners_guidance.pdf

vwt

DOCARCH wrote: »

...and...you will need to comply with Health & Safety legislation

They must be very busy people indeed if they are checking every single extension in Ireland for complete compliance and yet when I called the planning dept. with a simple question on planning permission they couldn't answer it.Good oul Ireland......

vwt

kceire wrote: »

A builder cannot certify it. You need independent advice and guidance that will pull up the builder in any wrong doings.

Also as you may or may not be aware, you have to get qualified registered electricians for the wiring etc nowadays.

Also, even though the house is old, the new works need to compley with current regulations.

I wouldn't have any unqualified tradesmen working in my house...especially when it comes to gas or electricity.

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

They must be very busy people indeed if they are checking every single extension in Ireland for complete compliance and yet when I called the planning dept. with a simple question on planning permission they couldn't answer it.Good oul Ireland......

The planning department have nothing got to do with building compliance so I'm confused what your rant here is?

vwt

kceire wrote: »

The planning department have nothing got to do with building compliance so I'm confused what your rant here is?

I don't see any rant.....I just told of my experience with SDCC planning dept.
So who does make sure the building is compliant?

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

I don't see any rant.....I just told of my experience with SDCC planning dept.
So who does make sure the building is compliant?

Building Control is a separate department to planning.
They don't care about planning rules or regulations. They care about the Building Regulations contained within the Technical Guidance Documents Part A to Part M.

The onus is on the home owner to ensure compliance with these building regulations and if they need professional advice, then they engage one. You don't have to, but it's your home and somebody needs to make sure the work been done is up to scratch.

What was the planning question that SDCC couldn't answer?

vwt

kceire wrote: »

Building Control is a separate department to planning.
They don't care about planning rules or regulations. They care about the Building Regulations contained within the Technical Guidance Documents Part A to Part M.

The onus is on the home owner to ensure compliance with these building regulations and if they need professional advice, then they engage one. You don't have to, but it's your home and somebody needs to make sure the work been done is up to scratch.

What was the planning question that SDCC couldn't answer?

Ok that's clearer.I will look into this once the building work actually starts.
I asked them about a garage attached to the side of my parents house.They wanted to convert it but change the roof from flat to pitched(3.8m)It says that converting a garage attached to the side of a property is exempt as long as you meet the criteria.I asked them about the roof and they basically said they weren't really sure

Calahonda52

vwt wrote: »

Could you elaborate???
We have an existing extension to the rear of our property already.
Together with the proposed extension,the internal sqm comes to 39.75 sqm

I don't think you get two freebies sans PP, regardless of the 40.
In addition DO check on how they measure the 40.

I had an issue with SD years ago re how the 40 was measured after a neighbour complained.

Strolling Bones

vwt wrote: »

change the roof from flat to pitched(3.8m)It says that converting a garage attached to the side of a property is exempt as long as you meet the criteria.I asked them about the roof and they basically said they weren't really sure

Not exempt unless experessly provided for in the exemption regs - so you need permision to alter the roof for whatver reason.

Incidentally the La are not obliged to serve you like this. If they give you wrong advice - tough no comeback as they are not accountable to you me or anyone else in this way.

You will one day have to provide an architects opinion on compliance - OR exemption to the lender of whomever may wish purchase your house. No phone call from the La will assist you then.

vwt

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Not exempt unless experessly provided for in the exemption regs - so you need permision to alter the roof for whatver reason.

Incidentally the La are not obliged to serve you like this. If they give you wrong advice - tough no comeback as they are not accountable to you me or anyone else in this way.

You will one day have to provide an architects opinion on compliance - OR exemption to the lender of whomever may wish purchase your house. No phone call from the La will assist you then.

Of course I can understand they don't want to be held accountable.

vwt

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I don't think you get two freebies sans PP, regardless of the 40.
In addition DO check on how they measure the 40.

I had an issue with SD years ago re how the 40 was measured after a neighbour complained.

We are getting planning permission for proposed extension so the 40sqm rule does not apply.Our extension to the rear is around 30sqm.If you have difficult neighbours of course theese issues can become a problem.As a means of respect I have already notified my neighbours as to my intentions.I will also have to legally but a notice of planning in public view in my garden.

Calahonda52

vwt wrote: »

We are getting planning permission for proposed extension so the 40sqm rule does not apply.Our extension to the rear is around 30sqm.If you have difficult neighbours of course theese issues can become a problem.As a means of respect I have already notified my neighbours as to my intentions.I will also have to legally but a notice of planning in public view in my garden.

OK, my bad re the PP, however do check how they measure

vwt

Calahonda52 wrote: »

OK, my bad re the PP, however do check how they measure

Will do!
Tks

Gumbo

vwt wrote: »

Of course I can understand they don't want to be held accountable.

There's nothing for them to be accountable for in fairness. That's why the law puts the onus on the home owner to seek professional guidance if required.

To be honest, sounds like a basic extension, get your planning and paperwork in order shouldn't be too much hassle tbh.

RORY O CONNOR

Leaving out professional fees here are some of the costs:

Newspaper ad: €150 to €320 (Southside/Northside people and Evening Herald ad costs)
OSi Planning pack: €62
Council Application fees-based on Square meters in the build-you pay this as its your application.
All Drawings including site location map: Varies between €350 to €600 depending on the complexity.

Then you throw in the time involved in preparation of the application ans the expertise of the professional I would say you are doing well at 1200.