Irish Rail - fighting them in court

Jayronimo

Hi all

Just looking for advice.I received a fine on the Southbound Dart a couple of months ago.I got on the Dart in Landsdowne Rd unable to purchase a ticket as the booking office was closed and couldnt use the machine as i only had 50e notes on me,no bankcard.When i got off my Dart at my stop in Sandycove there were inspectors waiting at the exit.I informed them that i didnt have a ticket and the reasons why,i also said that i was willing to pay for my journey now in accordance with


4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

I was denied the opportunity to pay,which i think is illegal? and told that i should have went to the nearest shop to get change,which is over a km away,which i thought was rude.I was then issued with my fine.I appealed my fine to no avail,stating what i just wrote here.

I would really like to fight this in court but i am worried about the criminal conviction if i lose,It seems totally unfair what is going on and the fine has increased to 113.50e
Please could I get some honest opinions

Thanks

Rob Thomas

Sorry, I don't see how the section you quote applies to your situation? This says that the board needs to confirm the office is closed or you need to have permission to board the train without a ticket and you can buy a ticket either on the train or at the other end. You don't say that anyone told you to get on? Did they? Or did the board display that it was closed?

Your issue really is that you didn't have appropriate change to use the machine, which was working? Regardless of the practicalities or not of you getting change locally, that's probably not the rail company's problem.

If I'm reading this right, I assume that's roughly the basis for your appeal being refused.

I don't see what is going to change if you take this to court, even if that's an option, I don't know if Irish Rail go to that end point on these, maybe if you ignore it long enough they just drop it.

But realistically even if it's only a small chance they will, just pay the fine and take it on the chin as one of those things that happen sometimes which seem unfair. It would be silly to end up in court over this.

Jayronimo

It applys to my situation as the booking office was closed.You dont need permission to get on the train that is just one of the clauses.If you read it again it is broken down into 3 parts.

Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed

or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station

any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

If i lose in court its a criminal conviction,which i think is tatally unfair in my case,i even told someone that works at the Dart and was told to fight this as there is a booking office and TVM(ticket vending machine)i had every intention of paying at the booking office.

Rob Thomas

Ok, misread the clause so.

Did they give a reason for declining your appeal?

Kavrocks

Jayronimo wrote: »

It applys to my situation as the booking office was closed.

But the Vending machine wasn't and that is probably key to your appeal being declined. I also think you may be misinterpreting the clause (although I'm open to correction). My understanding is that

any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train

applies in the instance where

Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station

occurs which didn't in your case.

TheChizler

You had an opportunity to pay at the booking machine and you didn't, it's not IR's fault that you didn't have change. As an analogy, would you be arguing if all you had was a chequebook and the machine wouldn't accept that form of payment? It's not too different to your current argument. If you go to court IR will present evidence that there was a functioning machine at the station and yet you boarded the train without a ticket. I can't imagine that going too well. Even if not having change was a valid exemption do you have any evidence to prove it?

Think of it this way, if having no change was a legitimate excuse then anybody turning up at a station with no manned office could ride for free by claiming they had no change.

It's unfortunate but you don't fall in to any of the categories for exemption.

corktina

where this applies
"Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station"


you may do this.
, "any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling"

and then
" but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train."




that's how i read it.....the station must be declared unattended or the booking office (which includes the ticket machine) closed before you can get on a train without a ticket on your own initiative.

n97 mini

This comes up often here, usually followed by long legged horses. The reality is it does need to be interpreted in court and not by equine types on an internet forum.

Losty Dublin

To challenge this in court means a day off work, the risk of a possible fine plus costs and the inevitable conviction it bestows on you. To give yourself a fighting chance of being found not guilty by a judge on what may be a point of law means that you will need to take on a solicitor to fight your case. That's a reasonable bill from €600-€1000+ if you lose.

Even if you win you are down the day in work plus your solicitors fees, a bill that that you won't get back and will cost you a lot more than the fixed penalty fare of €113.50. Weight it up; is it worth the cost, risk and the principle to take it to court?

n97 mini

You don't need to take on a solicitor for court, but maybe consult with one who would advise you before you do. Citizens Information centres usually have solicitors dispensing legal advice (for free) once a week or once a month.

chopper6

For what its worth a fine in relation to not having a ticket is not a criminal but a CIVIL matter.

Failure to pay the fine or another fine levied thereafter is a criminal matter.

If I were you I'd cut my losses and pay the fine..you don't want to end upp in court over a situation that was really your own fault.

Jayronimo

Why have a booking office,that was closed,at 4 in the afternoon,that takes 50e notes,that is where i was buying my ticket surely the judge would see my reasoning?I would not need a solicitor for this.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

You don't need to take on a solicitor for court, but maybe consult with one who would advise you before you do. Citizens Information centres usually have solicitors dispensing legal advice (for free) once a week or once a month.

In all honesty you'll need to have the legal expertise in the courtroom to deal and argue with both the judge and the Irish Rail solicitor/s on the day. That said, obtaining professional legal advice beforehand is essential and the CIC are a great resource to utilise.

corktina

Jayronimo wrote: »

Why have a booking office,that was closed,at 4 in the afternoon,that takes 50e notes,that is where i was buying my ticket surely the judge would see my reasoning?I would not need a solicitor for this.

I don't think so. There are notices forbidding you to enter a train without a ticket and the onus is on you to go get change

Saipanne

You couldn't walk to Centra on Shelbourne Road?

circular flexing

Jayronimo wrote: »

Why have a booking office,that was closed,at 4 in the afternoon,that takes 50e notes,that is where i was buying my ticket surely the judge would see my reasoning?I would not need a solicitor for this.

The booking office may have refused the €50 euro not too (and would have been within their rights to).

Todd Toddington III

There will be a definition of a booking office somewhere in that legal document, at the beginning usually. whatever that definition states will tell you if it's worth it or not going to court, ie if it states a booking office includes a vending machine then your screwed

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

In all honesty you'll need to have the legal expertise in the courtroom to deal and argue with both the judge and the Irish Rail solicitor/s on the day.

I think a solicitor would advise whether expertise is needed or not. I have represented myself in court as there was nothing a solicitor could say that I couldn't. It was a simple case though, probably slightly simpler that this.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That said, obtaining professional legal advice beforehand is essential and the CIC are a great resource to utilise.

Agreed.

n97 mini

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

There will be a definition of a booking office somewhere in that legal document, at the beginning usually. whatever that definition states will tell you if it's worth it or not going to court, ie if it states a booking office includes a vending machine then your screwed

Well written laws are complete and unambiguous. This isn't one of those, so "booking office" needs to be interpreted.

Jayronimo

Booking office is separate to TVM(ticket vending machine)

Todd Toddington III

There will be a definition of a booking office somewhere in that legal document, at the beginning usually. what ever that definition states will tell you if it's worth it or not going to court

Todd Toddington III

Sorry for repeat post

Losty Dublin

Jayronimo wrote: »

Why have a booking office,that was closed,at 4 in the afternoon,that takes 50e notes,that is where i was buying my ticket surely the judge would see my reasoning?I would not need a solicitor for this.

Look sanely at this.

In the red corner is Irish Rail. They will have solicitors on the day court along with the staff who met you in Sandycove. On the odd day they may also have a barrister as well if they know a sticky case is up before them.

In the blue corner is your good self. You are a layman in court for his first time ever and who is trying to argue a technicality in a law he that never heard off till recently to a judge who knows the law and knows when somebody is guilty. You are also on your own here.

The red corner and the judge know how the law is applied here; the blue corner however doesn't. This is real David and Goliath stuff. If you are serious about defending this in court then you really need to get a solicitor onto the case.

n97 mini

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

There will be a definition of a booking office somewhere in that legal document, at the beginning usually. what ever that definition states will tell you if it's worth it or not going to court

See if you can find it!
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

Jayronimo

That is where i got my quote from in the original text,section 4

Todd Toddington III

replying to n97 mini, on my phone so can't reply directly. common terms, such as booking office would be for irish rail are defined at the beginning of the legal document to avoid confusion and misinterpretation throughout the doc. I'm sure if the op was to look through it they would find this definition

Todd Toddington III

1984?? jebus, could do with an update. I doubt if there were any vending machines back then so could probably be argued that a vending machine is classed as a ticket booth today. Maybe not, depends on the judge. I'd pay the fine, not worth the hassle or risk tbh

AlekSmart

Jayronimo wrote: »

That is where i got my quote from in the original text,section 4

Might be some useful info here.....

http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php

Generally a good rule of thumb for taking to the courts is...."Can I afford to Lose this"...If yes,then fire away...If no,then walk away...If Hmmmmm...maybe...then RUN away...Quickly !!!

Jayronimo

AlekSmart wrote: »

Might be some useful info here.....



Generally a good rule of thumb for taking to the courts is...."Can I afford to Lose this"...If yes,the fire away...If no,then walk away...If Hmmmmm...maybe...then RUN away...Quickly !!!

I have already read this.I think i fall into this category,no?I would like to fight this in court as i really think i have a chance
It seems they have bully boy tactics

end of the road

Rob Thomas wrote: »

Sorry, I don't see how the section you quote applies to your situation? This says that the board needs to confirm the office is closed or you need to have permission to board the train without a ticket and you can buy a ticket either on the train or at the other end. You don't say that anyone told you to get on? Did they? Or did the board display that it was closed?

it states he must obtain a ticket or get authority after boarding the train, or if he can't, once he leaves the train. also, that he can be instructed to board the train by staff.

AlekSmart

Jayronimo wrote: »

I have already read this.I think i fall into this category,no? I would like to fight this in court as i really think i have a chance
It seems they have bully boy tactics

Zero Tolerance more than Bully-Boy,surely ?

Remember that your court appearance will be a "Bundled" one,with several others,most likely all with similar opinions on their situations...

Remember also,that the Judge on the day will be the final arbiter of the case....you will,of course,be entitled to appeal any verdict,however such appeal will be to the next higher court,with an escalation of fees,costs and the rest....

It really does hinge on your own confidence in your case,combined with a somewhat specific knowledge of the law,and importantly,of precedent established on the issue/s.

No amount of posting on Boards will improve your chances one whit....the key phrase you use is...

I would like to fight this in court as I really think I have a chance

If that's is your considered opinion,then see them in Court....:)

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

See if you can find it!
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

i did find this

32. No person shall by means of any machine provided by the Board upon the railway change or procure to be changed any coin or coins or any currency note or notes otherwise than for the purpose of obtaining immediately a ticket or tickets from the Board or from an authorised person at the station where such machine is provided.

that seems to me to be the only potential bit to consider a "ticket vending machine"

L1011

Irish Rail (well, CIE) had a substantial number of TVMs in 1984 (across the DART and commuter network) - they were withdrawn from use by the late 1980s though. I'd imagine there's still one languishing in Louisa Bridge's old concrete box station.

poggyone

A day of work to go to court, pay for a solicitor, this will be more than the E113.50 fine, then the judge might go against you and increase the fine.
Just pay the fine, forget about it and get on with you life, lesson learned.

n97 mini

L1011 wrote: »

Irish Rail (well, CIE) had a substantial number of TVMs in 1984 (across the DART and commuter network) - they were withdrawn from use by the late 1980s though. I'd imagine there's still one languishing in Louisa Bridge's old concrete box station.

The one and only one I ever saw, and only briefly. Anyone got a photo of one?

n97 mini

You can probably pay the fine and then issue proceedings against Irish Rail yourself.

CramCycle

Did the TVM refuse the 50euro or did you just not want all those coins. If its the former then you may have a point, if it's the latter then you don't.

Jayronimo

They do not accept 50e notes.

Pawwed Rig

poggyone wrote: »

A day of work to go to court, pay for a solicitor, this will be more than the E113.50 fine, then the judge might go against you and increase the fine.
Just pay the fine, forget about it and get on with you life, lesson learned.

If it is a matter of principal to the OP then he should pursue it rather than slavishly hand over money where he feels aggrieved. That is what civil courts are for after all.

I would fear though that you will not be given a chance to state your case and the judge will be trying to get through as many cases as possible.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

The one and only one I ever saw, and only briefly. Anyone got a photo of one?

My brother might, I'll ask him when I see him online.

Banjoxed

L1011 wrote: »

Irish Rail (well, CIE) had a substantial number of TVMs in 1984 (across the DART and commuter network) - they were withdrawn from use by the late 1980s though. I'd imagine there's still one languishing in Louisa Bridge's old concrete box station.

The ones that dispensed the White tickets - they were in place from at least the summer of 1979 and survived well into the eighties. Louisa Bridge had its machine from opening in November 1981.

Hilly Bill

Jayronimo wrote: »

Why have a booking office,that was closed,at 4 in the afternoon,that takes 50e notes,that is where i was buying my ticket surely the judge would see my reasoning?I would not need a solicitor for this.

Proving that you only had a 50 euro note will be difficult .

Hilly Bill

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

1984?? jebus, could do with an update. I doubt if there were any vending machines back then so could probably be argued that a vending machine is classed as a ticket booth today. Maybe not, depends on the judge. I'd pay the fine, not worth the hassle or risk tbh

The thing is though that this wouldnt be the first case of its kind.

n97 mini

Banjoxed wrote: »

The ones that dispensed the White tickets - they were in place from at least the summer of 1979 and survived well into the eighties. Louisa Bridge had its machine from opening in November 1981.

Were they widespread or is LB unusual? I never saw them elsewhere personally.

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The thing is though that this wouldnt be the first case of its kind.

Are you speculating or can you back that up? Court diaries are online.

Hilly Bill

Jayronimo wrote: »

They do not accept 50e notes.

Not for transactions less that 34 euro or so, because it gives all the change in coins.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Are you speculating or can you back that up? Court diaries are online.

seriously?

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

seriously?

Yep. That's the kind of claim that you should be able to prove, if it's true of course

Micky Dolenz

You haven't a leg to stand on. the onus is on you to have the correct money for the ticket. The ticket office being closed is irrelevant. IR had provided a means of obtaining a ticket, the fault lies with you on not being able to get the ticket. They lived up to their obligation, you did not.

You think an excuse of "I had no change" will fly with a judge? There will be stern words and you won't come out the better for it. if that was the way, everybody could say it.

n97 mini

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You think an excuse of "I had no change" will fly with a judge?

Just curious, are you connected in any way to the legal profession, or perhaps you have previous experience in court in a similar situation?

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Yep. That's the kind of claim that you should be able to prove, if it's true of course

Travelled without a ticket got fined claims only to have a 50 , wants to take it to court. The RPU spend as much time in court these days than on the trains, are you seriously questioning that it could be the first case of its kind?????