€200 rental difference from 1st to 3rd floor

morrga

Our landlord is increasing our rent by €200 per month next month. This follows on from a €200 increase last February. A 2 bed apartment 2 floors beneath us is going for €1,450. Is €1,650 a reasonable ask for the same apartment two floors higher? Is it worth going the PRTB route?

davo10

morrga wrote: »

Our landlord is increasing our rent by €200 per month next month. This follows on from a €200 increase last February. A 2 bed apartment 2 floors beneath us is going for €1,450. Is €1,650 a reasonable ask for the same apartment two floors higher? Is it worth going the PRTB route?

Firstly the ll is entitled to increase the rent as it will have been one year since the last increase. Generally apartments above the ground floor cost more to buy and more to rent due to added security and privacy of being above street level. You should not compare rent to ground floor apartments but other apartments in the same floor in your location or similar apartments in the area.

If you go to PRTB and the ll can show that other apts in the area rent for this amount, you will have to pay any increased back rent owing since the date the increase came into effect.

hfallada

Are the two apartments the same spec? I know of a small 12 apartment development in Dublin. Where everyone when they brought the apartment customised after them. Eg some put in new wooden flooring, ripped out the cheap looking bathroom and kitchen. Some of the apartments look better than others, meaning there is slight price differences

MouseTail

1 other apartment is not enough of a representative sample to gauge market value. You would need at least 5 I would think. They dont have to be the same unit, but similar spec in the same postcode will give you an idea if 1650 is reasonable.

morrga

Well this is interesting. The landlord posted a lease renewal to our letter box by mistake. It was meant for the apartment on the second floor. We are on the 3rd floor. So they they were offered a renewal at €150 cheaper than ours.

Yet when we brought this to their attention it was dismissed out of hand. It feels like bullying at this stage. There apartment is a 2 bed as well as ours. At this stage a trip to the PRTB is inevitable.

Idbatterim

I get why non ground floor are a bit more expensive, but once you are off ground floor, unless you are in a high rise with spectacular views the higher you go up etc, I wouldnt be prepared to pay any more for a like for like apartment on a higher floor... E1650 for a 2 bed though, that I am assuming is your nice standard 2 bed city apartment, nothing spectacular, except the price!

davo10

morrga wrote: »

Well this is interesting. The landlord posted a lease renewal to our letter box by mistake. It was meant for the apartment on the second floor. We are on the 3rd floor. So they they were offered a renewal at €150 cheaper than ours.

Yet when we brought this to their attention it was dismissed out of hand. It feels like bullying at this stage. There apartment is a 2 bed as well as ours. At this stage a trip to the PRTB is inevitable.

Morrga, forget the "bullying", it isn't. It's business. A LL is entitled to raise rent once a year, it can be raised to market rate. That rate can depend on what apartments rent for in the area, but can also depend on apartment spec and location. Third floor apartments may rent for more than second, your apartment may have a better spec etc. By all means go to the PRTB but remember that it can take a long time to adjudicate and if the LL wins, you will owe all the increased amount from the date you got the notice of increase. What research have you done? Have you checked what rent is being paid for 3rd floor, 2 bed apartments in other developments in the area? The LL will only have to get info from an EA and submit it to PRTB.

MouseTail

That is frustrating alright, but a LL does not have to be consistent in his pricing, there is absolutely nothing to say he cannot charge below market rates, and there are many reasons he might do so, for long term tenants, for excellent tenants, he might know the people etc. What he cannot charge is over market rates, and you need a good sample of similar spec apartments in the area for this. No doubt the price of the apartment on the 2nd floor strengthens your case, it will not be enough to prove your rise brings the rent above market rates. I think €1650 is high, but then you may live in a super duper penthouse. Gather your evidence, and proceed on that basis.

BeatNikDub

Make sure and go to PRTB. €1650 is very very high so make sure to go down all avenues before accepting.
In my experience I have found, rental wise, ground floors can tend to even go for a little more than apartments on higher floors because they can have more outdoor space with them, depending on development of course. Certainly in the last two places in Dublin south I have rented this has been the case.

Cuddlesworth

Is yours the top floor?

nibtrix

BeatNikDub wrote: »

Make sure and go to PRTB. €1650 is very very high so make sure to go down all avenues before accepting.

How do you know €1650 is "very very high"? We have no idea of the area or development that this apartment is in. If I do a quick Daft search for Dublin city, €1600-1700, 2 bed apts, there are 78 results, suggesting that for many areas this might be "market" rate.

The OP needs to compare the proposed rate to similar properties in the area. Only if it is clearly more than market rate will the PRTB rule in their favour.

SteM

BeatNikDub wrote: »

Make sure and go to PRTB. €1650 is very very high so make sure to go down all avenues before accepting.
In my experience I have found, rental wise, ground floors can tend to even go for a little more than apartments on higher floors because they can have more outdoor space with them, depending on development of course. Certainly in the last two places in Dublin south I have rented this has been the case.

You don't know the spec of the apartment or the location so I don't know how you can say that out of hand.

Is it a lot of money? Yes but the market is stupid at the moment.
Is it very, very high. How do you know unless you know the specifics.

13 months ago the OP was paying 1250 for a 2 bed apartment - I would have thought this was low.

BeatNikDub

nibtrix wrote: »

How do you know €1650 is "very very high"? We have no idea of the area or development that this apartment is in. If I do a quick Daft search for Dublin city, €1600-1700, 2 bed apts, there are 78 results, suggesting that for many areas this might be "market" rate.

The OP needs to compare the proposed rate to similar properties in the area. Only if it is clearly more than market rate will the PRTB rule in their favour.

It is still the higher end of the market for a 2 bed.

ec18

I rent a two bed in the city on the fourth floor and it's 1450, but then again there's a larger apartment in the complex on 4th floor that's being rented out at 1700.....so it really depends on quality and size of the apartment

Bob24

Third floor is certainly not worth an extra 200 euros compared to first floor all other things being equal. The thing is, all other things would usually not be equal.

With regards to the specific price, really depends on the location and the size of the apartment. The area I would know is Grand Canal Docks, and what you are being asked to pay is the market rate for a decent two bed over there.

morrga

Thanks all. It is the 3rd floor of 5 floors and certainly not of penthouse.

All I will say is that the person looking after the lease does not like me and vice versa. They unsuccessfully tried to take a car space of us last year. Now it's payback.

Why else would you charge the highest possible amount for a tenant who has kept the apartment in pristine condition for over 6 years.

This is why I believe it is personal. We have told them we are getting married this year and trying to save a deposit yet despite this won't budge.

I am prepared to go the PRTB route. We are differing by €50 as we agreed to a partial increase yet they won't budge. I wouldn't mind but NAMA own the thing so who really benefits!! No one. Which is why I believe this is getting beyond the point of reasonable engagement.

davo10

morrga wrote: »

All I will say is that the person looking after the lease does not like me and vice versa. They unsuccessfully tried to take a car space of us last year. Now it's payback.

Why else would you charge the highest possible amount for a tenant who has kept the apartment in pristine condition for over 6 years.

This is why I believe it is personal. We have told them we are getting married this year and trying to save a deposit yet despite this won't budge.

.

This is the problem OP.

You are taking this as a personal affront, that the rent is being increased. It is not a personal insult to be asked to pay the rent currently being sought in similar properties in the area, it's not "payback", it's "pay rent" and it is business. The LL is not required to take your personal circumstances (upcoming wedding) into consideration.

You ask " why else would you charge the highest possible amount?", the simple answer to that is, to maximise return on the property.

Before you go to PRTB, do your homework, check local EA's to see if any apartments in the area are charging the same as the higher rent being asked, if there are and the LL has followed correct procedure in informing you of rent increase, then the chances of you being successful are slim and you will have to pay the increased amount in full from the date you received the notice. Instead of posting here, get on the phone to EAs and find out about local rents, that is all that the LL has to prove.

Re-reading you last post, is an EA looking after this on behalf of NAMA? If it is, then it will be very simple indeed to show PRTB how much rents are in the area. Incidentally, you asked "who benefits?" , we do, the tax payer.

SteM

My understanding is that if a place is owned by nama and nama want to sell it off at some point then the higher the rental income the more they can sell the apartments for. It's in their interest to show what sort of return an investor can get on their money.

Arbiter of Good Taste

morrga wrote: »

Thanks all. It is the 3rd floor of 5 floors and certainly not of penthouse.

All I will say is that the person looking after the lease does not like me and vice versa. They unsuccessfully tried to take a car space of us last year. Now it's payback.

Why else would you charge the highest possible amount for a tenant who has kept the apartment in pristine condition for over 6 years.

This is why I believe it is personal. We have told them we are getting married this year and trying to save a deposit yet despite this won't budge.

I am prepared to go the PRTB route. We are differing by €50 as we agreed to a partial increase yet they won't budge. I wouldn't mind but NAMA own the thing so who really benefits!! No one. Which is why I believe this is getting beyond the point of reasonable engagement.

OP you need to think objectively and stop with the victim mentality. The LL is running a business and has a number of tenants to deal with. He's not wasting his time thinking of ways to get one over on you. He's not a charity and whether or not you are getting married is of no concern to him. Everyone has something going on in their lives - losing jobs, expecting children, medical expenses, etc, etc. Should the landlord provide concessions for everyone, or just you?

By all means go to PRTB if you think you have reasonable grounds but bear in mind the higher up the apartment, the more attractive from a security and noise perspective and may very well attract a premium. Also, although your rent is on the high side, it's not unheard of in certain parts of Dublin.

ec18

OP, out of curiosity what are of Dublin are you in?

Bob24

ec18 wrote: »

OP, out of curiosity what are of Dublin are you in?

Would indeed help to put things in perspective :-)

Fkall

morrga wrote: »

Thanks all. It is the 3rd floor of 5 floors and certainly not of penthouse.

All I will say is that the person looking after the lease does not like me and vice versa. They unsuccessfully tried to take a car space of us last year. Now it's payback.
L
Why else would you charge the highest possible amount for a tenant who has kept the apartment in pristine condition for over 6 years.

This is why I believe it is personal. We have told them we are getting married this year and trying to save a deposit yet despite this won't budge.

I am prepared to go the PRTB route. We are differing by €50 as we agreed to a partial increase yet they won't budge. I wouldn't mind but NAMA own the thing so who really benefits!! No one. Which is why I believe this is getting beyond the point of reasonable engagement.

Maybe the other apartment does not have a car space.

morrga

ec18 wrote: »

OP, out of curiosity what are of Dublin are you in?

Stillorgan

morrga

davo10 wrote: »

This is the problem OP.

Re-reading you last post, is an EA looking after this on behalf of NAMA? If it is, then it will be very simple indeed to show PRTB how much rents are in the area. Incidentally, you asked "who benefits?" , we do, the tax payer.

It was more tongue in cheek. I know who benefits but by how much? 0.0000001 per person times a thousand more decimal places.

davo10

morrga wrote: »

It was more tongue in cheek. I know who benefits but by how much? 0.0000001 per person times a thousand more decimal places.

Now consider how many apartments NAMA has on it's books and the hundreds of millions raised so far by sales of properties that were worth considerably less a few years ago. OP, your apartment is not the only apartment in NAMA. The MO is the same for all, sell for as much as possible to recover as much of the money loaned to bail out the banks, as possible.

Besides that, the principle is still the same irrespective of who owns it, rent can be raised to market rate, that is the reality of your situation. As the mafia would say, it's not personal it's strictly business.

ec18

morrga wrote: »

Stillorgan

Seems a bit much out that far unless it's an amazing apartment.....I saw rooms in 3 bed penthouse going out that way for 650 on daft last week

morrga

So, this saga still runs on as we have yet to agree to signing a lease. We paid 1,550 last month despite there last request been for 1,575. Out of principal 1,550 was as far as we would go.

Anyway, in the mean time, we received a letter in the post stating that a new apartment block was going to be built within 20 metres of our current buidling right in front of our Balcony. This building site and all its paraphanalia will contine for 18 months and every Saturday morning. This information was known to the landlord since July 14 yet they did not feel they should make us aware of this whilst trying to sign us up to a new lease?

Thankfully our refusal to sign has meant we have not locked ourselves into a lease at well over its asking price giving the inconvenience a building site in your front garden brings. Now we feel our rate should fall back to its original rate from last year. Honestly the underhand dealing of it all continues to beggar belief.

The_Morrigan

morrga wrote: »

So, this saga still runs on as we have yet to agree to signing a lease. We paid 1,550 last month despite there last request been for 1,575. Out of principal 1,550 was as far as we would go.

Anyway, in the mean time, we received a letter in the post stating that a new apartment block was going to be built within 20 metres of our current buidling right in front of our Balcony. This building site and all its paraphanalia will contine for 18 months and every Saturday morning. This information was known to the landlord since July 14 yet they did not feel they should make us aware of this whilst trying to sign us up to a new lease?

Thankfully our refusal to sign has meant we have not locked ourselves into a lease at well over its asking price giving the inconvenience a building site in your front garden brings. Now we feel our rate should fall back to its original rate from last year. Honestly the underhand dealing of it all continues to beggar belief.

Do you work shifts? Stay at home all day?

davo10

Assuming that the rent increase is in line with similar properties in the area, you are now in rent arrears whether you agree to the new rate or not. If you go to the PRTB, and you lose, you will still have to pay the back dated amount. So unless your LL agrees to the amount you want to pay, pretty soon you will be receiving a letter for the outstanding amount followed pretty soon by a notice of eviction. You can "feel" what you like, that doesn't mean you are entitled to the lower rate.

morrga

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Do you work shifts? Stay at home all day?

No but the missus works from home a few days a month.

morrga

davo10 wrote: »

Assuming that the rent increase is in line with similar properties in the area, you are now in rent arrears whether you agree to the new rate or not. If you go to the PRTB, and you lose, you will still have to pay the back dated amount. So unless your LL agrees to the amount you want to pay, pretty soon you will be receiving a letter for the outstanding amount followed pretty soon by a notice of eviction.

I doubt the rent increase is in line with other 2 bedroom apartments with a building site for a front garden and that is the line we are happy to toe.
We have yet to sign a new lease and we havent agreed to the rate they propose. Understand it can be backdated if PRTB rules against us but happy to go that route given the inconvenience of a new building site does not equate to the rent of similar 2 beds in the area with peace and quiet as any tenancy is entitled to expect.

The_Morrigan

morrga wrote: »

No but the missus works from home a few days a month.

I've lived in the same situation for six years and the inconvenience was minimal, and I was at home all day every day for all of last year, barely knew the builders were there on a day to day basis.
Building works that aren't in your building are not a reason to challenge a rent increase imo.

davo10

"I doubt" or "I know"? If the landlord can show that another third floor apartment in the area rents for that amount, then he "will know" and you no doubt will be paying the increase.

Michael D Not Higgins

morrga wrote: »

I doubt the rent increase is in line with other 2 bedroom apartments with a building site for a front garden and that is the line we are happy to toe.
We have yet to sign a new lease and we havent agreed to the rate they propose. Understand it can be backdated if PRTB rules against us but happy to go that route given the inconvenience of a new building site does not equate to the rent of similar 2 beds in the area with peace and quiet as any tenancy is entitled to expect.

Is there an actual PRTB dispute pending? If not, then you're acting outside the legislation and the landlord could (theoretically at least) evict you for arrears.

beauf

Would you not shop around for something cheaper if there's cheaper to be had.

ted1

morrga wrote: »

So, this saga still runs on as we have yet to agree to signing a lease. We paid 1,550 last month despite there last request been for 1,575. Out of principal 1,550 was as far as we would go.

Anyway, in the mean time, we received a letter in the post stating that a new apartment block was going to be built within 20 metres of our current buidling right in front of our Balcony. This building site and all its paraphanalia will contine for 18 months and every Saturday morning. This information was known to the landlord since July 14 yet they did not feel they should make us aware of this whilst trying to sign us up to a new lease?

Thankfully our refusal to sign has meant we have not locked ourselves into a lease at well over its asking price giving the inconvenience a building site in your front garden brings. Now we feel our rate should fall back to its original rate from last year. Honestly the underhand dealing of it all continues to beggar belief.

The ll was under no obligation to tell you, your free to check online planning applications and also site notices. owners don't get to pay reduced mortgages if something happens.
You don't need to agree to a rent increase, at the moment you are behind in your rent. The landlord should issue an notice of arrears leading to eviction

First floor is often a difficult to rent floor as it can be just over the hall or garage entrance which can mean additional noise and disturbance, so indeed a 200 difference between it and the third could be reasonable.

If you still feel strongly about your situation I would suggest that you refuse to sign the new lease but pay the LL the new amount, then tell him that you are looking for a new place in the locality as you feel his is too expensive and you are concerned about the building work.

This gives you two possibilities, you may actually find a nice apartment for less money, which will be a better long term solution. Alternatively, if you make it clear that you will not be looking for extra jobs, upgrades etc, he might decide to reduce your rent for signing the lease, to avoid losing a month or two of rent.

Alternatively you might discover, when you start looking, that the rental asked is not unreasonable.

hfallada

OP if you are unhappy about the rent increase and the construction work. My advice is move out. If you bring it to the PRTB, you will probably have to wait 6 months for your case to be heard. You will have to take time off work etc.

But Im sure you are aware its near impossible to find a property in this city ATM. Even if you decided to move out tomorrow, it will take months to find a decent place.