Commuting by car is king!

18MonthsaSlave

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/01/which-eu-country-prefers-commuting-by.html

...as if Irish Commuters had any other viable alternative.

porsche959

Doesn't look good that we are at 73% and UK is at 57%.

degsie

porsche959 wrote: »

Doesn't look good that we are at 73% and UK is at 57%.

Don't think car dealers would agree.

Del2005

porsche959 wrote: »

Doesn't look good that we are at 73% and UK is at 57%.

Our ribbon development along every boreen in the country means that the other transport options are available to most people, public transport isn't viable and they drive so recklessly that walking or cycling can be dangerous.

Surprised that some continental countries are so high

cgcsb

The problem is our development pattern. 40% rural population, utterly unsustainable when rural dwellers demand equal service provision to urban dwellers below market cost. What we need is towns with sustainable infrastructure and an outright ban on ribbon development.

KevR

Rural population is only part of it.

It's not like the public transport system in Dublin is great. It's not a good alternative to driving for many people in Dublin.

What's crazy is they are now doing some cheaper version of Metro North (shorter trains and platforms). That will definitely result in capacity problems down the line. People will not be encouraged to switch from their car onto an overcrowded public transport system. Why would you want to be squashed on train, tram or bus. There are threads on this forum regularly about unpleasant bus, tram or train journeys in Dublin...

I'm actually visiting Hong Kong at the moment. Their MTR is fantastic - as a result most people don't need to drive (or own a car). Trains run every 2 minutes, they are NEVER overcrowded even at peak times, it's comfortable, it's extremely affordable and there are no scobes hanging around stations or on trains. It's basically everything that the transport system in Dublin is not. I wouldn't dream of owning a car in Hong Kong, I would more than likely be driving to work if I lived in Dublin right now.

Also, just to note that Hong Kong has no bus lanes and no traffic jams. They build good wide roads here. Buses and cars co-exist and move freely on the roads. Hong Kong doesn't seem to subscribe to the same logic as Dublin which is to encourage people to switch to public transport simply by making car use more difficult. Transport is a 'free market' in HK, people choose the best option which is the MTR. Dublin's focus should be on getting the full MN and DU done as soon as possible. Then ditch all of these different brands (DART, Luas, Metro) and have an integrated, single brand transit system which is seamless to use. Realistically that is what it will take to get a large number of people out of their cars (and also reduce the need for diesel fume spewing buses around Dublin).

Nino Brown

porsche959 wrote: »

Doesn't look good that we are at 73% and UK is at 57%.

Yeah but if you consider how many people live in London, where most probably use the underground, the statistics are skewed. Take out London, and I'd say we're much closer.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

KevR

Nino Brown wrote: »

Yeah but if you consider how many people live in London, where most probably use the underground, the statistics are skewed. Take out London, and I'd say we're much closer.

Get Dublin's public transport system right and the figure for Ireland could be similarly skewed. This would be a very good thing obviously.

corktina

i think the use of scooters should be encouraged rather than car use. Many cars only have one occupant anyway and switching to a scooter would free up a lot of road space. Safer and quicker than a bike I would judge

Jawgap

I think housing and development policies have a lot to answer for, as well as public transport options - which are ok in Dublin, but pretty pathetic once you go outside the capital.

But there also remains the fact that Irish people love their cars!

The place I was working in last year had a big push a while ago to get people to give up their cars - mainly because they wanted to save on the car parking bills.

They pushed taxsaver, they pushed the cycle to work scheme and they pushed carpooling. They put a lot of 'soft incentives' in to help - for example, they revamped (and really poshed up) the showers and changing facilities (adding pretty big lockers), they ran a couple of raffles for things like ten journey tickets and Leap Card credit (to encourage people to at least try an alternative to the car) and organised coffee mornings with posh coffee and pastries for the "Commuter Club."

I think after about 6 months of trying only 2 people had switched from cars to public transport - this despite the fact that out of 120+ staff at the start of the process, over 80 were car commuters and of those 80 about 75% lived within 20km of the office and just under half lived within 10km.

elastico

cgcsb wrote: »

when rural dwellers demand equal service provision to urban dwellers below market cost.

People in the country pay more for electricity than those in the city.

As for water the biggest issue seems to be the greater Dublin area with just the small liffey for supply, the rest of the cities have big rivers to supply them and smaller populations.

bk

elastico wrote: »

People in the country pay more for electricity than those in the city.

Yes, they do, but actually not enough to actually cover the extra cost of rural electricity, it is actually still subsisdised by urban dwellers and one of the reasons why we have one of the highest average electricity costs in Europe!

Ireland has a hugely inefficient electricity supply network. The ESB is forced to maintain more than three times the length of distribution circuit per customer as compared to, for example, the UK. To avoid voltage drop over this extended network, at least one transformer for every square kilometre is needed in almost 75% of the area supplied by the ESB. This means that Ireland has almost one third the number of transformers as in the UK despite having a total distribution network of just half the size and 6% of its population. The higher connection charge levied on rural inhabitants (which incidentally applies not only to one-off rural dwellers but all rural areas) only accounts for half the actual cost of connection due to a ceiling imposed by the CER. In addition, unit prices are the same in urban and rural areas and as a consequence rural dwellers do not incur subsequent charges associated with the significant maintenance requirements of the extra length of power line (particularly due to falling trees etc) or the profligate loss of electricity due to the inefficient and lengthy network.

https://oneoffireland.wordpress.com/economic-costs/

bk

Jawgap wrote: »

They pushed taxsaver, they pushed the cycle to work scheme and they pushed carpooling. They put a lot of 'soft incentives' in to help - for example, they revamped (and really poshed up) the showers and changing facilities (adding pretty big lockers), they ran a couple of raffles for things like ten journey tickets and Leap Card credit (to encourage people to at least try an alternative to the car) and organised coffee mornings with posh coffee and pastries for the "Commuter Club."

I think after about 6 months of trying only 2 people had switched from cars to public transport - this despite the fact that out of 120+ staff at the start of the process, over 80 were car commuters and of those 80 about 75% lived within 20km of the office and just under half lived within 10km.

In my office, the major transport issue we have is lack of bicycle parking!

Really, the bike shed is absolutely jam packed every day, to such a great extent that bikes are pretty much locked to every light pole and railing in the business park.

My company is talking about building three new bike sheds to handle demand just for my building alone!!!

corktina

elastico wrote: »

People in the country pay more for electricity than those in the city.

As for water the biggest issue seems to be the greater Dublin area with just the small liffey for supply, the rest of the cities have big rivers to supply them and smaller populations.

define country, I don't live in a City but I don't live in the Countryside either.

elastico

corktina wrote: »

define country, I don't live in a City but I don't live in the Countryside either.

ESB actually define it as urban or rural, its best ask them how they define it, I don't know.

MGWR

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/01/which-eu-country-prefers-commuting-by.html

...as if Irish Commuters had any other viable alternative.

The government keeps ripping up railways and building motorways that people don't want in their back yards. They set the policy, and all the commuters can do is follow...that is, for as long as they put up with the government.

BoJack Horseman

MGWR wrote: »

The government keeps ripping up railways

Where?

cgcsb

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Where?

Rosslare-Waterford was the most recent, before that Mullingar-Athlone, etc. Granted not routes that are competing with motorways in any meaningful way.

Godge

cgcsb wrote: »

Rosslare-Waterford was the most recent, before that Mullingar-Athlone, etc. Granted not routes that are competing with motorways in any meaningful way.

They are not commuter routes.

Tenzor07

bk wrote: »

In my office, the major transport issue we have is lack of bicycle parking!
Really, the bike shed is absolutely jam packed every day, to such a great extent that bikes are pretty much locked to every light pole and railing in the business park.
My company is talking about building three new bike sheds to handle demand just for my building alone!!!

The "bike shed" at the office doubles up as a smoking shed too, and usually only has a small handful of bikes most of the time.
This is despite a number of staff living up to 6 or less Km's away.

I can totally believe this survey though, number 1 reason may be due to lack of proper public transport, though with Pure Laziness being close up behind it..

BoatMad

MGWR wrote: »

The government keeps ripping up railways and building motorways that people don't want in their back yards. They set the policy, and all the commuters can do is follow...that is, for as long as they put up with the government.

motorways are the best ( only ) great thing that came out of the celtic tiger, thank god we built them when we did, cause now wed have been stuck with the sh1Te that passed for a national primary system.

hurray.

View

Godge wrote: »

They are not commuter routes.

In the case of the Mullingar-Athlone route, it could be as it would mean connections to Connolly and the IFSC.

hardanro

Just compare the transport monthly passes in Ireland and other countries in europe and you got your answer, why the car usage for commuting is so high in Ireland.
Most of the countries have 50-100 Euro for a monthly pass. Dublin monthly pass is 132.
Countries with the cheapest public transport also have the lowest car usage percentage.
Pure and simple, it's not worth it to use something which is less comfortable, more time-consuming and often more expensive than a car. Buses have lost their meaning in Ireland

monument

KevR wrote: »

I'm actually visiting Hong Kong at the moment. Their MTR is fantastic - as a result most people don't need to drive (or own a car). Trains run every 2 minutes, they are NEVER overcrowded even at peak times, it's comfortable, it's extremely affordable and there are no scobes hanging around stations or on trains. It's basically everything that the transport system in Dublin is not. I wouldn't dream of owning a car in Hong Kong, I would more than likely be driving to work if I lived in Dublin right now.

And Hong Kong has what population again?

As for no overcrowding at rush hour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Ewf09o0t4

There's lines in Hong Kong where trains run at nearly 1 per min, with 8 carriages and when you're on the right platform you don't have to worry which train to take because both are traveling in the same direction!

KevR wrote: »

Also, just to note that Hong Kong has no bus lanes and no traffic jams. They build good wide roads here. Buses and cars co-exist and move freely on the roads. Hong Kong doesn't seem to subscribe to the same logic as Dublin which is to encourage people to switch to public transport simply by making car use more difficult. Transport is a 'free market' in HK, people choose the best option which is the MTR. Dublin's focus should be on getting the full MN and DU done as soon as possible. Then ditch all of these different brands (DART, Luas, Metro) and have an integrated, single brand transit system which is seamless to use. Realistically that is what it will take to get a large number of people out of their cars (and also reduce the need for diesel fume spewing buses around Dublin).

You might have rose-tinted glasses of Hong Kong: Just look at the Hong Kong artciles here: http://www.scmp.com/topics/traffic-congestion

This is just a snippet of one example:

"All too often we are reminded of worsening congestion or pollution on our roads. The latest example concerns both. The Transport Department says private car ownership in Hong Kong rose 25 per cent in a decade to 63.4 cars per 1,000 people last year, while the length of road per person rose by only 1.7 per cent in the same period. So we waste more time and suffer more stress getting anywhere while we breathe more polluted air."

They already have congestion at peak times and they'll have more fun with it as car ownership grows.

But sure if we pave over the Liffey and knock down a ton of houses and other building we too could have a Hong Kong-style road network.

Muahahaha

corktina wrote: »

i think the use of scooters should be encouraged rather than car use. Many cars only have one occupant anyway and switching to a scooter would free up a lot of road space. Safer and quicker than a bike I would judge

AFAIK a scooter takes up 2sqm of road space and a car 12sqm. Scooters are actually part of a viable solution to Dublins traffic problems but sadly recent law changes from the EU have made getting into riding any kind of moped or motorbike very restrictive and a lot more expensive than it used to be.

Cienciano

cgcsb wrote: »

The problem is our development pattern. 40% rural population, utterly unsustainable when rural dwellers demand equal service provision to urban dwellers below market cost. What we need is towns with sustainable infrastructure and an outright ban on ribbon development.

Not just that. I live and work within the M50 and a 20 minute car journey takes 1.5 hours each way on public transport. I used to work in the city centre and had parking (on the outskirts now) and it was far, far quicker to drive.
Public transport is great if you happen to live and work on a route, or you have no parking. But it's definitely easier to drive in the city on a lot of commutes.

One of the main problems is so few orbital routes. Getting from one edge of the city to another requires a bus into the city centre.

cdebru

Cienciano wrote: »

Not just that. I live and work within the M50 and a 20 minute car journey takes 1.5 hours each way on public transport. I used to work in the city centre and had parking (on the outskirts now) and it was far, far quicker to drive.
Public transport is great if you happen to live and work on a route, or you have no parking. But it's definitely easier to drive in the city on a lot of commutes.

One of the main problems is so few orbital routes. Getting from one edge of the city to another requires a bus into the city centre.

Cycling is by far the easiest way to get around the city, a 10km commute by bike is less than 30minutes, no bus or car can compete with that, and your commute time is regular, besides that it is far cheaper and you can even scrap the gym membership you never use. No parking nightmares you can go directly to whatever part of the city need to get to.

KevR

monument wrote: »

And Hong Kong has what population again?

As for no overcrowding at rush hour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Ewf09o0t4

There's lines in Hong Kong where trains run at nearly 1 per min, with 8 carriages and when you're on the right platform you don't have to worry which train to take because both are traveling in the same direction!



You might have rose-tinted glasses of Hong Kong: Just look at the Hong Kong artciles here: http://www.scmp.com/topics/traffic-congestion

This is just a snippet of one example:

"All too often we are reminded of worsening congestion or pollution on our roads. The latest example concerns both. The Transport Department says private car ownership in Hong Kong rose 25 per cent in a decade to 63.4 cars per 1,000 people last year, while the length of road per person rose by only 1.7 per cent in the same period. So we waste more time and suffer more stress getting anywhere while we breathe more polluted air."

They already have congestion at peak times and they'll have more fun with it as car ownership grows.

But sure if we pave over the Liffey and knock down a ton of houses and other building we too could have a Hong Kong-style road network.

My main point obviously went straight over your head!! The OP talks about commuting habits and compares it to other countries. People were discussing the rural population. I made a valid point that rural population is only part of the reason why a high percentage of people in Ireland commute by car - the public transport network in Dublin is far from good enough. There is excellent scope for better public transport (rail) in Dublin which will give people there a really great alternative to driving.

I did not suggest that Dublin should have the exact same rail setup as Hong Kong (trains running every minute) so I'm unsure why you are asking about the population. Who is suggesting that we pave over the Liffey? I did highlight that in Dublin they try to encourage public transport use by making car use more difficult. Frankly, that approach can only be described as 'clutching at straws'. They need to invest in proper rail alternatives if there is to be a big switch away from car use in Dublin. That's where Metro North and DART Underground come in.

As for that video - quite possibly there was some sort of an issue on the rail network that day and a disgruntled passenger uploaded that video of the crowded platform. I have been using the Island line (the one shown in that video) at peak times daily for the past month and my experience has been very far removed from what you see in the video.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1435341/mtr-urged-review-capacity-measures-ease-train-crowding?page=all
The article mentions just one of the lines but it says 70% full based on the old calculation of 6 people per square metre. It is full with the new calculation of 4 people per square metre and they are proactively looking to increase capacity so they can maintain this level of passenger experience. 4 people per square metre is pretty decent!

From my experience, you generally have more personal space (refer to article) on the MTR than you would on the Luas for example. You often have people squashed up against you from every angle on the Luas! I think it is crazy that they are contemplating reducing Metro North platform lengths just to save €70 million. It can't be worth it in the long run. Capacity issues will be a real nightmare in the long term and passenger experience will surely take a hit.

If you don't agree that there is scope for massive public transport improvement in Dublin, how do you suggest that we move forward and improve things?

Regarding the South China Post's road traffic congestion articles - people from every city will always say and think that their traffic is "the worst". For every article you find in Hong Kong / Chinese media about traffic in Hong Kong, you will find an article about traffic congestion in Dublin in its own local media (or any other city for that matter). Of course there are some bottlenecks and pinch points in Hong Kong! However, from my experience traffic in Hong Kong generally flows better than it does in Dublin.

Seaswimmer

Muahahaha wrote: »

AFAIK a scooter takes up 2sqm of road space and a car 12sqm. Scooters are actually part of a viable solution to Dublins traffic problems but sadly recent law changes from the EU have made getting into riding any kind of moped or motorbike very restrictive and a lot more expensive than it used to be.

slightly OT but is there any push to allow scooters and motorbikes use bus lanes? I think if bus lanes were opened up to them then with a bit of advertising and marketing we could switch some people from cars.

Cienciano

cdebru wrote: »

Cycling is by far the easiest way to get around the city, a 10km commute by bike is less than 30minutes, no bus or car can compete with that, and your commute time is regular, besides that it is far cheaper and you can even scrap the gym membership you never use. No parking nightmares you can go directly to whatever part of the city need to get to.

Cycling doesn't suit everyone. My commute comes up with a journey time of 52 minutes on a bike on google. From my experience a motorbike is the best way to get around Dublin city. Quicker than a bicycle, not as miserable, especially in weather like we had the last 10 days, fairly high winds and cold. No need for a shower at work and can wear normal clothes under waterproofs, can cover longer distances easier. Disadvantages is you still need a gym membership and it's far more expensive.

Seaswimmer wrote: »

slightly OT but is there any push to allow scooters and motorbikes use bus lanes? I think if bus lanes were opened up to them then with a bit of advertising and marketing we could switch some people from cars.

You can't use them on a motorbike officially, but no gardai will stop you. Even dedicated gardai bus lane checks will just wave you on.