Waterford - Limerick Junction Train

man98

So I'm currently travelling on a 22k on a trip to Limerick. There's 5 of us onboard, including the driver and conductor. Since when did numbers get so low? And since when did they put a 22k on it? Rosslare - Waterford traffic was never this low... I really think it's time management at IR start advertising the train, reducing fares or at the very least changing the timetable. I fear it'll go the same was the the aforementioned Rosslare line. (Granted I live in Wexford, so I mightn't have seen very low key, if any, ads).

Trick of the Tail

Well, they run the services at silly times, then complain no-one uses it, so it'll have to be closed.

That's IE's usual strategy.

LXFlyer

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Well, they run the services at silly times, then complain no-one uses it, so it'll have to be closed.

That's IE's usual strategy.

Actually the trains are not timed in a silly manner.

The trains are timed to provide a day return service from Clonmel to Dublin via Limerick Junction, and that's what they deliver. The afternoon service from Waterford at 16:25 provides an additional service from Waterford to Dublin (albeit via Limerick Junction), filling a long gap in that timetable.

For this line to deliver fully on its potential, it needs additional resources:
- An extra set to offer a commuter service into Waterford from Clonmel in the morning and return in the evening

- A commuter service between Clonmel and Limerick - the feasibility of this is limited due to the number of trains already operating on the single track between Killonan (just outside Limerick) and Limerick Junction in the mornings

- Additional trains in the middle of the day and later in the evening

- Automation of the level crossings and resignalling to eliminate the staffing issues that mean it is only open Monday-Saturday

- A full seven day operation

- Through services to/from Galway

The use of an ICR arises from integrating the workings on the line with the trains on the Dublin/Waterford route at 13:15 from Dublin and from Waterford at 13:05.

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

- A commuter service between Clonmel and Limerick - the feasibility of this is limited due to the number of trains already operating on the single track between Killonan (just outside Limerick) and Limerick Junction in the mornings

-
.

they don't couple up any more?

cml387

The serivice is a dead duck.

The numbers commuting to Waterford and Limerick do not justify a service, they'll just continue to commute by car.
Clonmel people taking the train to Dublin mostly drive to Thurles and catch a train there because of the number of options available.

I see the train most evenings and there are seldom more than four or five people on it, mostly pensioners.

Dai John

There was a time when it ran from Rosslare which coicided with the ferries and gave it that extra business.

TrustedApple

I would be getting on this Train from Cahir to Waterford countless times and i am useable the only person getting on it at must there will 3 getting on in cahir.

Sometimes i get the train from waterford to cahir and maybe 6 people get off it its crazy low numbers.

I think a lot to do with it being so low in cahir must people in the town haveint a clue that the station is still open as there is only one sign in the square for the train and thats it for the town.

There used to be trains during the day before but they magically stopped them and there was people on them trains.

But the prices need to be fixed big time on it. Why is is cheaper to get a day return then a single ticket ?. €8.40 for day return from cahir and single from cahir is €8.60. If you ask for a 7 day return its like €23 euros. The student tickets also cost more on the route from cahir to waterford and vice versa.

But give me the Train any day of the week over the Bus !!!

man98

samapple789 wrote:

But give me the Train any day of the week over the Bus !!!

Except Sunday because they don't operate . A shuttle Galway - Limerick - Junction - Waterford - Wexford would be ideal, although I'd be frightened if anyone that smart got near a management position at IR. Complete automation, quicker changes in Limerick Junction and proper timings are needed. Even if it has the aim of a Clonmel - Dublin service the numbers hardly reached double figures in Limerick Junc.

cgcsb

Sad that so many parts of the rail network have been starved of infrastructural investment and modernisation.

cml387

cgcsb wrote: »

Sad that so many parts of the rail network have been starved of infrastructural investment and modernisation.

The whole Waterford Limerick junction line was relaid with new track and sleepers in the last few years.

cgcsb

But only two trains a day, poorly marketed without proper connecting bus services. A morning commute, say cahir to clonmel is not possible for example. No through services, limerick to waterford

LXFlyer

As I've posted on the Limerick-Galway thread, some of the key steps to developing any sort of patronage on these lines from an infrastructure point of view are:
1) Cut down waiting time at Limerick Junction through better scheduling on Dublin/Cork
2) Run through Waterford-Galway trains
3) Build the timetable up from the times that Dublin/Cork & vv call at the Junction
4) Add commuter services where possible
5) Re-signal the line and automate the level crossings and develop a 7 day a week railway

cgcsb

All good measures with moderate cost. Completely agree, limerick junction is key despite it's rural location. The junction could probably do with an upgrade. It wouldn't be a bad sight for a future planned town mind, accessible by direct rail from every city in the state, not many towns can claim that.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

As I've posted on the Limerick-Galway thread, some of the key steps to developing any sort of patronage on these lines from an infrastructure point of view are:
1) Cut down waiting time at Limerick Junction through better scheduling on Dublin/Cork
2) Run through Waterford-Galway trains
3) Build the timetable up from the times that Dublin/Cork & vv call at the Junction
4) Add commuter services where possible
5) Re-signal the line and automate the level crossings and develop a 7 day a week railway

i think we all agree on that, but they wouldn't do it when they had the money. why. because they aren't interested IMO

end of the road

man98 wrote: »

So I'm currently travelling on a 22k on a trip to Limerick. There's 5 of us onboard, including the driver and conductor. Since when did numbers get so low? And since when did they put a 22k on it? Rosslare - Waterford traffic was never this low... I really think it's time management at IR start advertising the train, reducing fares or at the very least changing the timetable. I fear it'll go the same was the the aforementioned Rosslare line. (Granted I live in Wexford, so I mightn't have seen very low key, if any, ads).

the key is for the likes of the NTA to refuse every line closure that close it eventually looks for, and instead forces them to make it work or else. wishful thinking i know but anyway

Jamie2k9

While I agree with most of the comments, impotent to consider its an 07.20 service on a Saturday morning and January. There is a big drop in passenger usage during January across all intercity services.

The 09.45/16/25 services carry the most passengers out of the 4 services.

22's commenced operations on the route around just over 1 year ago.

Markcheese

lxflyer wrote: »

As I've posted on the Limerick-Galway thread, some of the key steps to developing any sort of patronage on these lines from an infrastructure point of view are:
1) Cut down waiting time at Limerick Junction through better scheduling on Dublin/Cork
2) Run through Waterford-Galway trains
3) Build the timetable up from the times that Dublin/Cork & vv call at the Junction
4) Add commuter services where possible
5) Re-signal the line and automate the level crossings and develop a 7 day a week railway

How long would(or even could ) a Waterford to Galway train journey take... And could it be synced to the times of the cork-Dublin train at limerick junction -
I'm guessing resignaling and automating the level crossings wouldn't be cheap - do the population bases (+possible transfers) really justify the level of extra investment and extra running costs involved -would it be just another white elephant ?

LXFlyer

Markcheese wrote: »

How long would(or even could ) a Waterford to Galway train journey take... And could it be synced to the times of the cork-Dublin train at limerick junction -
I'm guessing resignaling and automating the level crossings wouldn't be cheap - do the population bases (+possible transfers) really justify the level of extra investment and extra running costs involved -would it be just another white elephant ?

You build the service up on the basis of connections at Limerick Junction - that's the point.

The timetable needs to be constructed around the times of the Dublin/Cork train, hence my comments on getting the time between Cork/Dublin and Dublin/Cork trains calling at Limerick Junction down to a minimum.

But that is definitely achievable.

You would be looking at about four and a half hours or so.

n97 mini

Galway to Rosslare to meet the ferry sounds nice, but journey times are so slow en route that it would probably be in London via Dublin before you would get to Rosslare.

The average speed on Waterford to Limerick Junction is very poor. 56 miles in 1hr40 is 34mph. That's not competitive with N roads.

corktina

n97 mini wrote: »

Galway to Rosslare to meet the ferry sounds nice, but journey times are so slow en route that it would probably be in London via Dublin before you would get to Rosslare.

The average speed on Waterford to Limerick Junction is very poor. 56 miles in 1hr40 is 34mph. That's not competitive with N roads.

No it isn't and with a paralell bus route much closer to the Town Centre, places lke Carrick, Clonmel and Cahir are a bit of a lost cause.

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

How long would(or even could ) a Waterford to Galway train journey take... And could it be synced to the times of the cork-Dublin train at limerick junction -
I'm guessing resignaling and automating the level crossings wouldn't be cheap - do the population bases (+possible transfers) really justify the level of extra investment and extra running costs involved -would it be just another white elephant ?

any costs in improving this line, which should have been done years ago, would be worth every penny

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

No it isn't and with a paralell bus route much closer to the Town Centre, places lke Carrick, Clonmel and Cahir are a bit of a lost cause.

offer them a proper service, not one ran grudgingly, then we'l see. you would be more or less targeting car users anyway as those who use bus never use rail anyway, all though a few could move over.

Jamie2k9

Waterford-Galway would only be around 10 minutes faster than via Kildare.

I would prefer Irish Rail and the NTA to get funds and improve Limerick J by constructing a second platform which would benefit a lot of people. Cost wise it would be low and deliver a positive return in the long run for everybody.

Limerick-Cork times cut by 15-20 minutes to 1h25/30.

Waterford-Limerick direct services integrated with Limerick shuttle with time savings of 30 minutes ex Waterford (2h25m) and 15 minutes ex Limerick to 2h15m

Galway-Limerick services could be timed accordingly to meet Waterford departure in Limerick while at times continue to junction on shuttles. I know it happens a little already.

Dublin-Cork see's no changes however Cork gets 00.30 departures back.

elastico

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Waterford-Galway would only be around 10 minutes faster than via Kildare.

That's true at the moment.

Investing in double tracking Limerick - Limerick Junction, Galway - Athenry and other improvements on the Limerick - Galway line would be killing many birds with fewer stones and getting Limerick / Galway to Waterford journey times down.

n97 mini

I wonder is there that much demand for travel between Galway and Waterford. Both are small by international standards (Waterford is smaller than Drogheda) and neither have onward travel options worth talking about. The south east also has the highest unemployment in the country so not a lot if business reasons for travel.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I wonder is there that much demand for travel between Galway and Waterford.

for direct trains, i don't know. there could be and then again there may not be. timing the trains to allow decent connections without long waits however would be worth looking at. having such connections can't be a bad thing either way.

n97 mini wrote: »

Both are small by international standards (Waterford is smaller than Drogheda) and neither have onward travel options worth talking about.

maybe not to you, but those options may be worth talking about for some. nothing wrong with looking at them at least. if some options can be integrated via connections then its worth at least looking at as part of an integrated transport strategy. they don't necessarily have to be implemented, and if some can't, well so be it. no harm looking at them at least.

n97 mini wrote: »

The south east also has the highest unemployment in the country so not a lot if business reasons for travel.

well, looking at offering such opportunities as part of a strategy to try to lower that unemployment rate would be no bad thing.

Jamie2k9

elastico wrote: »

That's true at the moment.

Investing in double tracking Limerick - Limerick Junction, Galway - Athenry and other improvements on the Limerick - Galway line would be killing many birds with fewer stones and getting Limerick / Galway to Waterford journey times down.

Be realistic, the cost of a second platform is minimal to improve service standards. As for the double tracking neither of those projects would be near top of the list for double tracking. There is and unlikely will be a need for Limerick J to Limerick to be doubled as it's got the level of service required and it's unlikely to increase at all. Anyway it would only save 3-5 minutes in one direction.

(Waterford is smaller than Drogheda)

Well it's not but I get your point. It's not really about direct services but the fact Irish Rail can't grasp that simple fact that time costs them passengers and money unless you don't have to pay for it then time doesn't become an issue.

It will likely take the M20 to be built and open before IE consider doing anything about Limerick J.

Markcheese

n97 mini wrote: »

I wonder is there that much demand for travel between Galway and Waterford. Both are small by international standards (Waterford is smaller than Drogheda) and neither have onward travel options worth talking about. The south east also has the highest unemployment in the country so not a lot if business reasons for travel.

There's probably not huge demand from Waterford to Galway .. But there's already a Galway to limerick,a limerick to limerick junction and a limerick junction to Waterford service - by combining the 3 in whole or part ? (Doubt there'd be a need for 1 train an hour from Waterford to limerick junction ) ,would it make the services more efficient ?(or less ?),create more journeys and passenger options,and justify small investment to up journey times - !

man98

Honestly anything is a good investment in comparison to what the lines are carrying now.

LXFlyer

Markcheese wrote: »

There's probably not huge demand from Waterford to Galway .. But there's already a Galway to limerick,a limerick to limerick junction and a limerick junction to Waterford service - by combining the 3 in whole or part ? (Doubt there'd be a need for 1 train an hour from Waterford to limerick junction ) ,would it make the services more efficient ?(or less ?),create more journeys and passenger options,and justify small investment to up journey times - !

Precisely - it's all about building connectivity.

n97 mini

One thing I suppose it would do away with is IE's inability to co-ordinate connecting trains. At the moment it appears a random number generator is being used to create a lot of the timetables, especially on intercity trains out of Heuston and the Hazelhatch commuter services.

Currently the JP shows 5hr15 for the afternoon train (no morning train option) from Waterford to Galway with a 29 minute wait in LJ and a further 46 minute wait in Limerick. So it would appear you're not meant to do this. Conversely the quickest journey is 3hr58 via Kildare with a 24 minute wait.

Running a train direct from Waterford to Galway via LJ, quickest would be around 4 hours. Direct via Kildare could be done in around 3hr35. Hmmm. Not looking good.

n97 mini

Speaking of lack of connections. 7.20 train ex Waterford gets you into Limerick at 10.16 with a 45 minute wait in Limerick Junction. Next departure direct to Galway from Limerick is 4 hours later!

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Speaking of lack of connections. 7.20 train ex Waterford gets you into Limerick at 10.16 with a 45 minute wait in Limerick Junction. Next departure direct to Galway from Limerick is 4 hours later!

This is the point that I was trying to get across - the key is getting the Dublin/Cork and Cork/Dublin trains calling at Limerick Junction within a few minutes of one another so that a proper timetable on the cross-country line can be built up.

n97 mini

Aye, it would appear IE likes to make you wait. You should try Hazelhatch to Galway (or anywhere) for examples of how IE makes buses look good.

cgcsb

n97 mini wrote: »

I wonder is there that much demand for travel between Galway and Waterford. Both are small by international standards (Waterford is smaller than Drogheda) and neither have onward travel options worth talking about. The south east also has the highest unemployment in the country so not a lot if business reasons for travel.

Galway-Waterford isn't the point though, it's the increased connectivity that'll increase shorter hops, for example a Cahir-Limerick direct train would be attractive for many, a faster Cork-Limerick service would be attractive to many. This is common throughout Europe, take the Budapest-Zurich service, hardly anybody rides end to end because it'd take at least 12 hours, but along the way it takes in almost the entire Austrian Republic and it's heaving with passengers.

n97 mini

No, I get that. Just wondering about end to end demand. I think IE should have run trains to Waterford (or better again Rosslare) as soon as the WRC opened.

Jamie2k9

Limerick J should be operating like:
00.20 - Waterford connection arrives
00.25 - Limerick connection arrives
00.30 - Dublin-Cork and Cork Dublin arrives
00.35 - Limerick connection departs
00.40 - Waterford connection departs

Until this happens it's pointless connection point on the network unless your have time on your hands.

man98

Wexford would be ideal, but it won't happen because IR don't like being wrong, so it won't happen. Now, if Irish Rail made it easier and surrendered the WRC to Iarnród Boards.ie it'd be a different story.

end of the road

man98 wrote: »

Wexford would be ideal, but it won't happen because IR don't like being wrong, so it won't happen. Now, if Irish Rail made it easier and surrendered the WRC to Iarnród Boards.ie it'd be a different story.

well, as we know, they had to have something to sacrifice for phaze 1 of the WRC, just like phazes 2 and 3 if they went ahead which they aren't going ahead, all be it the other 2 lines left may go anyway. this of course was predicted by those opposing the WRC and so far they have got it right. rosslare waterford didn't seem to have anything in the way of political resistance bar local councilors, so it was the perfect candidate to face the chop first. had it had political resistance and say, nenagh had none, i believe nenagh would have gone by by instead. i suspect nenagh and LJ waterford are now being held on to as something to cut for something else in the future, so i don't think they are safe.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Limerick J should be operating like:
00.20 - Waterford connection arrives
00.25 - Limerick connection arrives
00.30 - Dublin-Cork and Cork Dublin arrives
00.35 - Limerick connection departs
00.40 - Waterford connection departs

Until this happens it's pointless connection point on the network unless your have time on your hands.

I'd agree - you'd want no more than a 15 minute wait for arrivals and departures on services on the Limerick/Waterford line. A second platform for Dublin/Cork & v.v. trains would help enormously, which of course they used to have before it was demolished.

It is however, easier said than done to come up with timetables that deliver all of these connections. There are other factors to take into account, such as line speeds, temporary speed restrictions, connections at Mallow for the Kerry route etc.

Scheduling is not an easy task, and becomes even trickier when dealing with single track lines with passing loops, and a desire to maintain where possible clockface regular interval departure times.

But I do believe it is achievable.

BoatMad

I travelled on Limerick to Waterford in the late seventies, then as now, trains were at daft times, no sunday working cause CIE wouldn't pay the staff. last train left Limerick at 4:30 !

I mean if the WRC can justify 5.99 fares then why not do the same here,

oh I forgot, because its IR " back pocket" lets close this one , the next time the minister shrieks

LXFlyer

BoatMad wrote: »

I travelled on Limerick to Waterford in the late seventies, then as now, trains were at daft times, no sunday working cause CIE wouldn't pay the staff. last train left Limerick at 4:30 !

I mean if the WRC can justify 5.99 fares then why not do the same here,

oh I forgot, because its IR " back pocket" lets close this one , the next time the minister shrieks

The timings then were purely as boat trains. Domestic traffic was an afterthought.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

The timings then were purely as boat trains. Domestic traffic was an afterthought.

true, all though both should have been a thought. nothing stopping boat and other trains even back then.

BoatMad

lxflyer wrote: »

The timings then were purely as boat trains. Domestic traffic was an afterthought.

Some were , some where remnants. in fact the boat train expresses disappeared by 1975.

LXFlyer

BoatMad wrote: »

Some were , some where remnants. in fact the boat train expresses disappeared by 1975.

The expresses may have vanished, but that train that you quoted was definitely timed to meet the evening ferry at Rosslare, as was the train in the opposite direction in the evenings.

BoatMad

lxflyer wrote: »

The expresses may have vanished, but that train that you quoted was definitely timed to meet the evening ferry at Rosslare, as was the train in the opposite direction in the evenings.

indeed it was. and that was the only evening service. In the summer it would fill two carriages in the winter it was me and the guard !!.

The Limerick Waterford line has better opportunities then WRC, that was recognised is several strategic rail reviews, but IR just arnt interested, passengers just get in the way of efficiency

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd agree - you'd want no more than a 15 minute wait for arrivals and departures on services on the Limerick/Waterford line. A second platform for Dublin/Cork & v.v. trains would help enormously, which of course they used to have before it was demolished.

It is however, easier said than done to come up with timetables that deliver all of these connections. There are other factors to take into account, such as line speeds, temporary speed restrictions, connections at Mallow for the Kerry route etc.

Scheduling is not an easy task, and becomes even trickier when dealing with single track lines with passing loops, and a desire to maintain where possible clockface regular interval departure times.

But I do believe it is achievable.

Not an easy task but very doable especially clock face on Limerick branch.

dowlingm

Even with CTC now the cabins are closed, it must be pretty tricky to get a Waterford service across the Dublin Cork tracks without leaving a decent gap. If the east platform had been built as proposed during the boom maybe the Waterford service could have had a bay, with only occasional need to cross the mainline.

With UL, LIT and WIT at either end of Limerick-Waterford I find it hard to believe a Sunday service wouldn't get trade, and have advocated in the past a move to Saturday closure as an interim step to 7 day ops.

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

Even with CTC now the cabins are closed, it must be pretty tricky to get a Waterford service across the Dublin Cork tracks without leaving a decent gap. If the east platform had been built as proposed during the boom maybe the Waterford service could have had a bay, with only occasional need to cross the mainline.

With UL, LIT and WIT at either end of Limerick-Waterford I find it hard to believe a Sunday service wouldn't get trade, and have advocated in the past a move to Saturday closure as an interim step to 7 day ops.

There current timetabling allow 5 minute gap. 16.25 (ex Waterford) arrives at 18.05 and 16.25 (ex Dublin) arrives 18.10.

BoatMad

dowlingm wrote: »

Even with CTC now the cabins are closed, it must be pretty tricky to get a Waterford service across the Dublin Cork tracks without leaving a decent gap. If the east platform had been built as proposed during the boom maybe the Waterford service could have had a bay, with only occasional need to cross the mainline.

With UL, LIT and WIT at either end of Limerick-Waterford I find it hard to believe a Sunday service wouldn't get trade, and have advocated in the past a move to Saturday closure as an interim step to 7 day ops.

Its not particularly tricky , railways have had about 100 years to work on timetabling. Limerick Junction suffers, because originally , its was never seen by the W&LR as a route to Dublin, hence interconnection wasn't a particularly big issue,

LXFlyer

Exactly - why would it be difficult?

There's only one train an hour in either direction on the main line - it's hardly congested.

Plus all train movements are controlled by CTC.