Hostility towards cyclists

HivemindXX

I wanted to reply to this post from the on the spot fines thread but since a mod has made an effort to get that back on topic I thought I'd start a new one. Hopefully nobody sees it as bad form to quote someone in a new thread

ROK ON wrote: »

It seems to me that while poor driving and cycling is about the same as it usually is, there is an increasing level of hostility being shown to cyclists. I see angry reactions weekly rather than daily from motorists.
I was accosted at a work due by a colleague berating me for the behaviour of 'cyclists'. I have had similar reaction from relatives.

I actually have the opposite impression (about the hostility, not about the number of muppets). It used to be that if someone twigged I was a cyclist I was practically guaranteed to be in for a rant about something or other. While that still happens it is probably more common for people to ask me for information about getting started, what do I do on rainy days, is it ok to park a bike on the street, have I done anything like the RoK etc. Very positive change in my experience.

Hand wringing about how it's a miracle I haven't been killed yet is probably constant but it was never that high to begin with.

Unknown Soldier

HivemindXX wrote: »

I wanted to reply to this post from the on the spot fines thread but since a mod has made an effort to get that back on topic I thought I'd start a new one. Hopefully nobody sees it as bad form to quote someone in a new thread



I actually have the opposite impression (about the hostility, not about the number of muppets). It used to be that if someone twigged I was a cyclist I was practically guaranteed to be in for a rant about something or other. While that still happens it is probably more common for people to ask me for information about getting started, what do I do on rainy days, is it ok to park a bike on the street, have I done anything like the RoK etc. Very positive change in my experience.

Hand wringing about how it's a miracle I haven't been killed yet is probably constant but it was never that high to begin with.

I think there has to be split between people cycling in Dublin city centre and everywhere else for a start. Include other high traffic cities/towns.

I've watched people on the quays and it's mental. Dog eat dog stuff.

I only hope that the really important thing they were chasing is worth it.

dashcamdanny

There is definitely a great deal of hostility. I think it maybe more tribal than common sense that drives it. One side against the other .

I commute by cycle then drive a truck or van for a living.

General driver attitudes of both drivers and cyclists suck.

I find myself being put into the ditch while cycling to work by motorists and on the same day, I get caught for miles behind a group of cyclist that refuse to pull over and let a mile of traffic by. Each group may claim rights and reasons for their actions, but common courtesy is never included.

D1ck heads on both sides drive the hate.

odyssey06

A small grass roots suggestion for people who cycle to work... If your company promotes the bike to work scheme, ask whoever organises your company comms sessions if you can have 15 minutes to talk about your commute in.

Talk about your route, talk about bottlenecks, why you picked the route\what you avoid, what good behaviour you would like to see from motorists, what you watch out for when cycling. Don't turn it into a rant against motorists, or city planners, use neutral, blameless language etc... Try to get colleagues to visualise what it's like on a bike commuting through traffic in rush hour.

If people are worried that motorists don't see a person when they see a cyclist... be the face of cycling for them.

Wishbone Ash

dashcamdanny wrote: »

.... I get caught for miles behind a group of cyclist that refuse to pull over and let a mile of other traffic by. Each group may claim rights and reasons for their actions, but common courtesy is never included.....

I've fixed your post. Cyclists are also 'traffic'. The prevailing mentality among many motorists that they are not, is the root of much hostility.

dashcamdanny

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I've fixed your post. Cyclists are also 'traffic'. The prevailing mentality among many motorists that they are not, is the root of much hostility.

The prevailing mentality of other road users is they don't like a rolling road block. If both side learned how not to upset each other the divisions would fade.

In the UK if a tractor held up a line of (other) traffic they would face a fine if caught.

If the same tractor was blocking a group of cyclists down a long downhill section , how would you feel about the right of the tractor to be holding you up. I am sure it would feel upsetting as he tractor just ruined the best bit of the cycle.
Especially if he passed numerous places where he could pull over for a few seconds and let the tailback pass.

This is all fairly basic human nature stuff.

odyssey06

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I've fixed your post. Cyclists are also 'traffic'. The prevailing mentality among many motorists that they are not, is the root of much hostility.

If you are help up by other road users not showing consideration... it leads to hostility. Whether it's a bunch of cyclists, whether a sunday driver crawling along, whether a tourist coach slowing down for photos... But why would other road users carry over hostility from specific cyclists to cyclists in general? Does the reverse happen with specific motorists (types of vehicle maybe?) to all such motorists?
Not sure. Perhaps because when people blow off steam about being held up... some (not everyone) people defend the cyclists in that scenario, nobody is defending the sunday driver?

Wishbone Ash

dashcamdanny wrote: »

The prevailing mentality of other road users is they don't like a rolling road block. If both side learned how not to upset each other the divisions would fade.

In the UK if a tractor held up a line of (other) traffic they would face a fine if caught.

If the same tractor was blocking a group of cyclists down a long downhill section , how would you feel about the right of the tractor to be holding you up. I am sure it would feel upsetting as he tractor just ruined the best bit of the cycle.
Especially if he passed numerous places where he could pull over for a few seconds and let the tailback pass.

This is all fairly basic human nature stuff.

odyssey06 wrote: »

If you are help up by other road users not showing consideration... it leads to hostility. Whether it's a bunch of cyclists, whether a sunday driver crawling along, whether a tourist coach slowing down for photos... But why would other road users carry over hostility from specific cyclists to cyclists in general? Does the reverse happen with specific motorists (types of vehicle maybe?) to all such motorists?
Not sure. Perhaps because when people blow off steam about being held up... some (not everyone) people defend the cyclists in that scenario, nobody is defending the sunday driver?

I think you've missed the point entirely lads. It related to cyclists not being considered 'traffic' - at no point did I condone inconveniencing others.

odyssey06

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I think you've missed the point entirely lads. It related to cyclists not being considered 'traffic' - at no point did I condone inconveniencing others.

Abort key pressed on cruise missile strike...

I think considering them as people is even better!
In some respects, the helmets, protective gear and hi-vis is a barrier to that... on the other hand, given the layout of our roads, a necessary one

Would there be less hostility between motorists if all drove convertibles and could see a person and not a vehicle? I wonder.

Darkglasses

Can only speak for myself, but I really experience no hostility at all on my spins. I typically cycle fairly quiet, narrow backroads around Wexford. Some careless driving sure, but nobody's perfect. People generally wave back if you wave to them, and haven't noticed any impatience on the rare occasion that people get held up. There are tractors and horses around pretty often too, no big deal. Not to mention when the road is too narrow for two cars to pass

I know it's harder to keep chill in the city, but try to not sweat the small stuff folks

ebbsy

Does not help that Dublin is not really suitable for cycling. it is certainly not suitable for driving a car around.

odyssey06

We should remember that there is a certain % of society who are a*****s.
Some of them drive cars.
They are hostile to everyone, but likely most hostile where they can be, towards those more vulnerable - pedestrians, cyclists, motorbikers - not encased in metal.
Some of them cycle bikes. On pavements. Fast.
The only solution to creatures like this is legal enforcement.

My previous grassroot suggestion stands for those susceptible to reasonable argument and empathy with fellow humans. Not just for reducing hostility, should it exist, but for increasing awareness.

Beasty

Maybe impatience is a better term than hostility. As I posted in the other thread I personally feel more motorists are taking more risks (with cyclists and other road users) due to increasing traffic levels. It's not necessarily they are being deliberately hostile towards cyslist, but I do think feel there has been an increase in risk taking on the commuter routes I cycle (which starts out in the country and end in suburbia (on the way in), but the closer calls I do witness can be anywhere along the route)

ford2600

dashcamdanny wrote: »

In the UK if a tractor held up a line of (other) traffic they would face a fine if caught.

If the same tractor was blocking a group of cyclists down a long downhill section , how would you feel about the right of the tractor to be holding you up. I am sure it would feel upsetting as he tractor just ruined the best bit of the cycle.
Especially if he passed numerous places where he could pull over for a few seconds and let the tailback pass.

This is all fairly basic human nature stuff.

So I'm a boll1x when I'm on a bike and when in tractor. Hard to win around here

Ole Rodrigo

ebbsy wrote: »

Does not help that Dublin is not really suitable for cycling. it is certainly not suitable for driving a car around.

On the contrary it is suitable for cycling - between the canals at least - if there wasn't so much motor traffic getting in the way.

I noticed a real deterioration in driver awareness towards cyclists over the holidays.

odyssey06

Beasty wrote: »

As I posted in the other thread I personally feel more motorists are taking more risks (with cyclists and other road users) due to increasing traffic levels.

+1 In terms of taking more risks.
Stopped in right turning waiting by red arrow, waiting for green filter to come on, I've had car go around me from behind because there was no traffic coming straight on.
I've seen a cyclist dash during lights change, across lane of traffic, onto cycle lane on opposite footpath. The guy was fast, he made it... but it was a close run thing.

CatFromHue

Darkglasses wrote: »

Can only speak for myself, but I really experience no hostility at all on my spins.

Me neither, though the other night I did have a stand off with a motorist.....a stand off of after you, no after you.

Was coming up to a set of lights, that I was expecting to change, and the first car was indicating left so I kept behind it. It went into the junction but then slowed right down so I did the same. Then I copped they were taking a U turn and were waiting for me to pass them. We did give each other some funny looks but I figured it was prob best for me to go on then play the waiting game.

This was in Dublin too.

Domane

When cycling alone, I've never had any issues with motorists. It's only when I'm cycling with my mate that I've encountered the beeping, the revving, and the close overtaking by motorists, even though we cycle single file when there's traffic around. Perhaps a couple of cyclists induces a "fear factor" to a lone motorist😜😄

On the other hand, when I'm driving and I come up behind a group of cyclists two or even three abreast on a narrow country road, it gets my back up if they refuse to get into single file long enough for me to overtake safely.

As others have said, consideration on all sides would go a long way to improving relations between all road users. And as others have also said, there will always be ar$eholes on both sides who can't see further than the end of their own nose.

Lemming

Some observations:

From the UK at least - most tractor drivers are aware that they are driving slow moving vehicles and tend to pull over at the nearest opportunity; even on tiny country roads in the @rse-end of nowhere next to MoD training areas (tanks on the other hand ... ).

Secondly, I think most people who rage when seeing groups of cyclists are used to driving past lone cyclists and think "how dare they take up the road that I need to get by them on". It's pig-ignorance mixed with the height of impatience and lack of awareness that cyclists ARE traffic too. By the same token, I've had groups of cyclists close in together at the nearest available safe opportunity to let me overtake and always gotten a wave of appreciation from them for not driving up their @rses, beeping, revving, etc. which makes me sad to think that they should feel the need to thank me for doing what should be done anyway ...

Thirdly, and this is a story from about a couple of months ago. I started cycling again for the first time in years (and first time in the UK), and to break myself back in cycle. On my first morning, whilst taking third exit off a roundabout, I have a white-van driver attempt to t-bone me because he didn't want to wait the five seconds needed for me to take the same exit he was about to take. Without exaggeration, I can say that I did not need to extend my leg to place my foot on his bumper. No way he couldn't see me; I was full-side profile on to him, directly in front of him. Some drivers are just complete cocks and it doesn't matter how many wheels you are using when you have the misfortune to encounter them.

Even when I think back to before I started driving and cycled a *lot* back home in Dublin, I'd get the occasional "you're a cyclist therefore you are answerable for all cyclists perceived crimes" from family members. I think that a lot of drivers simply don't see cyclists as road traffic users; just pedestrians on two wheels on their road. I think that a lot of people try to reconcile cyclists with what they did as kids cycling up and down their local street/park and therefore not "serious" as a form of transport or worthy of consideration as other road users.

TL:DR - Some road users are just dicks of course and it doesn't really matter if you're cycling, or driving, or hovering - they'd still find something to moan about.

Harrybelafonte

Interesting how so far only cyclists/motorists has been mentioned. I've experienced some hostility and close calls over the years but generally it's been fine, I experience almost the same amount when driving, but the times I hate cyclists the most is when I'm a pedestrian. When cyclists speed along on the pavement or pole through pedestrian's crossing etc. I feel more vulnerable than I do when on the bike. Pedestrians also drive and also cycle. So it's a constant cycle tbh

Actually, closest call in awhile was some d!psh!t on a bike who passed me on my left just before I stuck my hand out to indicate I was turning left. I partially wish I had signalled sooner.

Borderfox

Out in Dunshaughlin 99% of drivers are grand and I don't get hassle off any of them, I can't say the same when I take a spin into Dublin. The level of hostility and near misses goes through the roof.

CramCycle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

When cyclists speed along on the pavement or pole through pedestrian's crossing etc. I feel more vulnerable than I do when on the bike. Pedestrians also drive and also cycle. So it's a constant cycle tbh

+1 how there hasn't been a mob beating of some individuals on bikes at the grand canal cycle path is beyond me. While part of me blames the council's light sequences, part of me just thinks that if they can't see a parent and pram crossing and stop in time they should be segregated from society until they are deemed capable of reasonable interaction with other members of society.

Saipanne

CramCycle wrote: »

+1 how there hasn't been a mob beating of some individuals on bikes at the grand canal cycle path is beyond me. While part of me blames the council's light sequences, part of me just thinks that if they can't see a parent and pram crossing and stop in time they should be segregated from society until they are deemed capable of reasonable interaction with other members of society.

The crossing at the main entrance of Stephens Green can be quite dangerous, at rush hour. It's supposed to be a one way street, so your eyes are naturally drawn to the automobile traffic, coming from the east, but cyclists absolutely bomb down the other direction (against the one way system), and since there is no traffic light for them to view from that angle, they simply never stop.

jungleman

Male cyclists shouldn't be allowed to have ponytails, so I don't have to question my sexuality on the drive to work every morning.

Baron Kurtz

CramCycle wrote: »

+1 how there hasn't been a mob beating of some individuals on bikes at the grand canal cycle path is beyond me. While part of me blames the council's light sequences, part of me just thinks that if they can't see a parent and pram crossing and stop in time they should be segregated from society until they are deemed capable of reasonable interaction with other members of society.

True. There's some old codger I see at one of these intersections tween cycle lane and path heavily berating all cyclists who pass through when the pedestrians have the green man go ahead or the flashing amber. Whilst a funny spectacle, he's completely right.

There is a flimsy sign up along the Canal indicating to give way to pedestrians when the light flashes amber. The sign is not very prominent tbh. NO cyclist abides by this rule from what I've witnessed (apart from me :0).
People just don't understand it, or don't want to.

I've probably said this before but cyclists crossing supposedly 'safely' at a green man is probably the source of annoyance for motorists and a contribution to a divisive existence between road users. It's another example of cyclists NEVER abiding to wait for the green light. Out of 10 cyclists waiting 8 or 9 will set off when the green man shows, not the green light.

Ole Rodrigo

There are still a large amount of cyclists in Dublin city center who think breaking the rules of the road is acceptable once they feel its safe to do so.

What the don't realize is that not only is it not as safe as they think, but its also a PR failure, generating more resentment.

CramCycle

MOD VOICE: Just to clarify, this thread is about increased hostility to cyclists and as an extension hostility on the roads in general. It is not however a thread to vent against cyclists and promote general negativity. I realise it maybe a fine line to tread but please do so. Sweeping generalisations for example will not be tolerated about any road user

CramCycle

Baron Kurtz wrote: »

There is a flimsy sign up along the Canal indicating to give way to pedestrians when the light flashes amber. The sign is not very prominent tbh. NO cyclist abides by this rule from what I've witnessed (apart from me :0).
People just don't understand it, or don't want to.

I have never seen the sign TBH but I know what a flashing amber symbolises though so it doesn't really affect me.

At several junctions on the canal they need to alter the light sequence. They need shorter green times for crossing motor traffic at peak periods as it leads to masses of peds and cyclists crammed in a small area. Potentially alter the sequence to either separate peds and cyclists crossing time (although this probably won't work due to confusion of the lights by both parties) or for the parallel road to have a flashing amber or red filter for turning traffic and the cyclist light to be tied to it, although I am not sure space wise is this feasible, just spit balling though.

Ole Rodrigo

In actual fact, whats needed is real time data analytics controlling traffic lights in the city. So much time is wasted on the sequence being inappropriate.

I can think of 3 pedestrian lights in the city center that go green when there's nobody around. Or worse, the guy who presses the pedestrian light only to cross the road before it changes, leaving the light red for traffic moments later with nobody crossing.

CramCycle

Which ped lights as a matter of interest, and is there a reason they should not be green, I am certainly in favour of ped lights being green whenever there is no green for crossing traffic.

HivemindXX

Ole Rodrigo wrote: »

Or worse, the guy who presses the pedestrian light only to cross the road before it changes, leaving the light red for traffic moments later with nobody crossing.

What would you prefer to this situation? If I'm at a pedestrian crossing and the road is busy then I press the button. If there's a gap then I cross. Now while that's illegal I doubt many motorists would complain if I never pressed the button and just waited for a gap to cross so would it really be better if I waited for the green light even though I could have crossed earlier?

A number of factors contribute to poor pedestrian behaviour in my opinion. The fact that at a lot of junctions you must wait every time, pedestrians never get a green unless they turn up and press a button which means that at a deserted junction in the middle of the night I should walk up to the lights which are merrily changing to allow non-existent cars from each direction then wait for up to 90 seconds while the pedestrian light comes on. The fact that at a lot of junctions the pedestrian slice is a lot thinner than the motorist slice, I have a lot of experience waiting at lights on the canal and it is no exaggeration to say that at some junctions cars have 5 or 6 times the green light time that pedestrians do. Finally the fact that people don't see the harm of breaking the rules as a pedestrian when 'it is safe' to do so. These are not excuses I'm just explaining my personal motivations when I come to a pedestrian crossing.

I know I'm guilty of doing things as a pedestrian I would never do as a cyclist. I believe the poor pedestrian behaviour is ingrained and largely acceptable. I don't see even a tiny fraction of the hostility towards pedestrians that I see towards cyclists. I've never, not once, heard someone in a pub saying "oh you're a pedestrian are you? Well the other day I saw one of you crossing the road against the light what do you have to say to that?". I believe this is because everyone is a pedestrian at some point so they accept the exact same offences that cause outrage by a cyclist because they would never cycle a bike at all.

Go through a red light in a car? Sure, it was only just gone red. Exceed the speed limit? Sure that road is plenty safe, speed limits are just a cash grab anyway. Park up on the footpath? Sure everyone needs to nip in to the shops for a minute once in a while. Walk across a junction weaving between stopped cars? No issue. Illegal right turn? Well, I'd have to go a long way around otherwise.

Do a similar thing on a bike then it's an outrage, phone Joe Duffy, advocate tagging all cyclists, listen to the likes of Finian McGrath.

Personally I think cyclists and motorists both need to improve their performance. I don't do the illegal things that bother so many motorists (although to be fair I do things that both some, such as using the road and existing) and I would prefer it if all cyclists were the same and also if motorists stopped habitually jumping reds, parking in the cycle lane and footpath and driving without paying proper attention. I can't really summon the will to be a better pedestrian to be honest, perhaps if anyone really cared I'd be able to.

I've seen the concept of the out group dismissed here before but I have no doubt that it is valid. The primary thing motivating hostility towards cyclists is tribal. Blatant disregard for the rules is a big contributing factor of course, however if every cyclist scrupulously followed the rules I have no doubt that some motorists would still be complaining.

odyssey06

Ole Rodrigo wrote: »

Or worse, the guy who presses the pedestrian light only to cross the road before it changes, leaving the light red for traffic moments later with nobody crossing.

I don't see where you are coming from here at all so I'm wondering if I've misunderstood, because what you've appeared to suggest is madness...
How is the pedestrian supposed to know the road will clear before the light turns red? Some sort of omniscent foresight? You have to press the button.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Borderfox wrote: »

Out in Dunshaughlin 99% of drivers are grand and I don't get hassle off any of them, I can't say the same when I take a spin into Dublin. The level of hostility and near misses goes through the roof.

I'm not mocking you but are you sure you're not just a nervous cyclist?.

I'm cycling in Dublin traffic the best part of twenty years and I'd have to think long and very hard to remember anything of significance.

In fact, and I'm reluctant to say this but I often find cyclists are less accommodating to other cyclists on the roads than just about any other road user!.

Another point I'd like to make, I find Dublin Bus drivers to be some of the best and most obliging when it comes to cyclists ~ and I speak as someone who lost a very good friend who was killed by a Dublin Bus on Constitution Hill a few weeks before Christmas.

odyssey06

Flipping things around, as a pedestrian looking at the general behaviour of cyclists in Dublin city centre rush hour... something has to be done. The situation at some junctions is out of control - largely because of the behaviour of a high number of cyclists - and it is not an insignificant minority. The green man is for pedestrians. Red lights and one way streets apply to people on bikes. Weaving at speed through pedestrians crossing at a green man is not acceptable behaviour. Travelling at speed on footpaths around pedestrians is not acceptable behaviour.

Someone said earlier that too many motorists see cyclists as pedestrians on bikes... Too many cyclists think of themselves this way too when it suits them.
There doesn't seem to be any way to change this behaviour on the cycling side except legal enforcement.

Is hostility the right word for it? I'm not sure. Actually maybe it is, from the pedestrian side, because as a pedestrian you feel that these cyclists have to be aware that they are using the power\speed the bike gives them to bully pedestrians. And hostility is a natural reaction to that.
I'm not sure it necessarily follows that this particiular hostility spreads over in general to all cyclists.
But certainly the feeling of "something has to be done" has been building for some time as a result of those particular experiences. And FPNs are the result of the feeling.

Jawgap

I don't know if there is 'more' hostility out there towards cyclists - because that would assume there was some lesser level beforehand.

I've had experience of motorists. taxi drivers etc blowing horns or even pulling alongside to offer 'helpful' advice - but I get the impression these type of personalities are just idiots and if they are not shouting at me, they'll be shouting, ranting or spitting bile at something else (to use that well worn phrase, haters gonna hate!)- therefore, I don't take it personally.

I think some media outlets, d'Indo for example and the Right Hook, see mileage in berating cyclists or complaining about them - but they (and the likes of Ivan Yates) come across as grumpy middle/old age men (it's usually men) who are trying to emulate Jeremy Clarkson.......without being nearly as articulate or even as 'witty' - and as a result they just sound ridiculous - they do, however, have an audience in the first class of person I mentioned who seem to think because certain media personalities are saying it, they too have a mandate to be vocal idiots.

I've also noticed that, previously, work colleagues would come to me and say things like "Hey, you're a cyclist....." and proceed to relate some case of perceived idiotic cycling behaviour they'd witnessed.....was I to record such complaints

odyssey06

Weepsie wrote: »

In reply to odyssey, pedestrians are IMO the very worst offenders not crossing at correct spots, stepping out at zebra crossing before any vehicles come to a stop, staring into their phone using off road cycle paths for their dogs, his, buggies, taking unnecessary risks weaving around cars, hailing taxis ainfrastructuree pointsetc etc. But tthat's off topic.

But does that lead to hostility? It's careless behaviour... but I think it's the bullying behaviour - not just being careless, but the feeling that your safety is not important to me - that leads to hostility.

In all the above situations, the person most at risk from the behaviour is the pedestrian.
(I know a cyclist in a collision with a pedestrian isn't going to come off scot free either, but it's the pedestrian taking the biggest risk)

As a motorist, I see a cyclist taking risks (no lights at night, breaking red lights) it doesnt engender hostility in me because there's no blowback on me. If anything I worry if the guy will make it home in one piece and next time is more careful.

Hostility can also come from contempt, seeing the other person as less than you, which could account for the flipside of motorists v cyclists.

CramCycle

Weepsie wrote: »

In reply to odyssey, pedestrians are IMO the very worst offenders not crossing at correct spots, stepping out at zebra crossing before any vehicles come to a stop,

While you are right, Ireland is the only country where traffic does not give way at Zebra crossings. Only this morning coming out of Aldi did I see a car driving through a zebra crossing while a pedestrian was waiting. Happens every day at the Clonskeagh exit from UCD. If it was possible I would love for Gardai to set up cameras at zebra crossings and every time a cyclist or car runs through with a pedestrian waiting, they have their car or bicycle scrapped. No fines, no messing, straight to the scrap yard. Had a car try to tip my rear wheel/intimidate me when I stopped to let pedestrians over in UCD and then give me the finger when I looked behind me.

Daroxtar

The biggest problems on the road lie with lack of enforcement of laws. If you know you'll get away with being a twat then some people automatically behave like one. Cyclists who break the rules of the road should suffer the consequences, same as everyone else.

Coming from a motorists point of view, Drivers should have to retake their driving test every 10 years at the most. Not just the practical but the theory too and more emphasis placed on awareness of other road users. The amount of utterly retarded behaviour on the road is just outrageous. If motorists were forced to drive properly and within the rules they might take more care and behave less like wànkers when being delayed for a whole 20 seconds by slow moving traffic.

Now apart from that, I have experienced no hostile behaviour towards me whatsoever while cycling , just stupid cünts driving with a death wish.

Jawgap

CramCycle wrote: »

While you are right, Ireland is the only country where traffic does not give way at Zebra crossings. Only this morning coming out of Aldi did I see a car driving through a zebra crossing while a pedestrian was waiting. Happens every day at the Clonskeagh exit from UCD. If it was possible I would love for Gardai to set up cameras at zebra crossings and every time a cyclist or car runs through with a pedestrian waiting, they have their car or bicycle scrapped. No fines, no messing, straight to the scrap yard. Had a car try to tip my rear wheel/intimidate me when I stopped to let pedestrians over in UCD and then give me the finger when I looked behind me.

There was a Danish chap (Jan Gehl) speaking in Dublin last autumn and I thought he hit the nail very nicely on the head - effectively the cities and towns are designed, modified, changed and forced to adapt to suit the motor car....

Dublin needs more benches, less pandering to cars, says expert

“That’s because they have allowed traffic planners to exert undue influence, with silly ideas like every time a pedestrian approaches a crossing, they have to ‘apply’ to cross the street when it should be a human right.

“And often you can’t go directly across, but to a traffic island, and then you have to ‘apply’ again. The aim is to make motorists happy and pedestrians miserable – in the midst of all the graffiti of road markings on tarmac.”

.....on the plus side - it's something else we can blame perfidious Albion for....:D:D

While acknowledging there had been improvements in some areas, such as the much wider footpaths on O’Connell Street, he said Dublin was still “dominated” by British traffic planning ideas that gave priority to cars.
“It’s typical of such thinking that, whenever there’s a drive-in, even by one car per day, the sidewalk is cut or dished to cater for it, instead of getting the car to cross the sidewalk. I’ve seen this everywhere in former British colonies.”

bigar

I encounter a lot of hostility while cycling through Dublin. I get over it by telling myself it is just jealousy. Cyclist move along while cars are stuck and some want to voice that frustration. So I just feel pity for the poor souls that obviously chose the wrong means of transport. Helps me deal with the hostility.

Lemming

One thing I have to say about Dublin cycling; the most dangerous road users are ..... pedestrians. The amount of near misses, skinnings, and general stupidity I've witnessed or had the good fortune to avoid were insane. I spent a summer doing courier work too just after I left school (bring on the hate ... ) so whilst I do not profess to never having broken traffic law in my time, pedestrians really do take the biscuit for sheer bravado and/or doing utterly wreckless/oblivious/dumb things.

And yet, the hate is on the smallest 'normal' subset of road-users in Dublin city (by 'normal' I mean when we take out novelty transport like horse & carts, and rickshaws). Cyclists don't help their case by doing safe but illegal manouevres like going through the pedestrian green-man when there's no pedestrians in sight (for example) or just ignoring the red light in general, but at the same, folk need to take a liberal dose of cop-your-f*cking-@rses-on and see the trees in front of them and recognise that whilst yes there is a problem, there is a perceived hate-fest on the smallest group which is tantamount to bullying. Where is the hatefest for boy racers speeding up and down urban estates at speed? Tailgaters, poor lane discipline and abuse on motorways, aggressive driving, red light jumping, texting/holding mobile phones whilst driving, etc. And that's before we get to "dumb things pedestrians do".

Add to that the little gem of Dublin having being used for several years now as a textbook example in how not to do traffic management by other European cities. There's more than enough blame to spread around every single group of road-users, and the political "cadre" involved in city mis-management.

odyssey06

Lemming wrote: »

One thing I have to say about Dublin cycling; the most dangerous road users are

Honestly your whole post just screams "whataboutery"... Stop comparing them to other road users, start comparing them against what they should be doing.

Pedestrians do reckless things, they are taking a chance with their own bodies and are in no man's land legally... If they are the most dangerous road users, they are also most dangerous to themselves... But nobody comes on here defending that...

Motorists jump red lights, tailgate, misuse headlights ... nobody comes on here defending that... I haven't seen any motorists come on here saying, well because cyclists or pedestrians are breaking the law, we have a right to do so.

But when people call out bad cycling behaviour (see my earlier post about junctions in Dublin city centre), people come out with the "whataboutery", and seem to want to claim exemption for cyclists as a whole from the laws of the land. Do you not see how that arrogance can lead to hostility?

CramCycle

odyssey06 wrote: »

Motorists jump red lights, tailgate, misuse headlights ... nobody comes on here defending that... I haven't seen any motorists come on here saying, well because cyclists or pedestrians are breaking the law, we have a right to do so.

But when people call out bad cycling behaviour (see my earlier post about junctions in Dublin city centre), people come out with the "whataboutery", and seem to want to claim exemption for cyclists as a whole from the laws of the land. Do you not see how that arrogance can lead to hostility?

I missed that completely, what "whataboutery" are you on about?

Flem31

Based on the last few posts, perhaps this thread should be renamed Hostility towards pedestrians.

Imo there is no one group that can take the higher moral ground on the issue of safety, there is a minority of idiots in all three groups who give a bad name for the rest of their group.

Motorists shouldn't consider the road as their exclusive domain and practice the art of patience and due care to others
Pedestrians shouldn't cross the road wherever whenever it suits them and expect everyone else to protect them
Cyclists shouldn't cycle on footpaths pretending they are doing a TdeF TT, or that red lights are for others to obey

All groups are far from angel status

Lemming

odyssey06 wrote: »

Honestly your whole post just screams "whataboutery"... Stop comparing them to other road users, start comparing them against what they should be doing.

Pedestrians do reckless things, they are taking a chance with their own bodies and are in no man's land legally... If they are the most dangerous road users, they are also most dangerous to themselves... But nobody comes on here defending that...

Motorists jump red lights, tailgate, misuse headlights ... nobody comes on here defending that... I haven't seen any motorists come on here saying, well because cyclists or pedestrians are breaking the law, we have a right to do so.

But when people call out bad cycling behaviour (see my earlier post about junctions in Dublin city centre), people come out with the "whataboutery", and seem to want to claim exemption for cyclists as a whole from the laws of the land. Do you not see how that arrogance can lead to hostility?

Where have I claimed exemption for cyclists? Please, pony up or jog on on that point.

There is a world of difference between calling out bad behaviour and being openly hostile; even on this forum there have been proclaimations of "I hate cyclists". I don't hate drivers; some of thei are just dicks. I don't hate pedestrians; again some of them are just dicks. But you still see people proclaiming "I hate cyclists", and the prevailing attitude that I have encountered - and indeed read here - would appear to be "You are a cyclist, therefore you are answerable for the crimes be they real or perceived of all cyclists everywhere".

Ole Rodrigo

CramCycle wrote: »

Which ped lights as a matter of interest, and is there a reason they should not be green, I am certainly in favour of ped lights being green whenever there is no green for crossing traffic.

There are 3 sets on O'Connell Street on auto sequences at certain times of the day. Obviously, the reason they shouldn't be green is traffic waiting on the red with nobody crossing, just adding to traffic flow obstacles . The consequence of this on the North bound side , is motorists letting it rip once they get an open stretch in Parnell Square west causing a headache for cyclists and pedestrians attempting to cross.

Anyway that's off topic.

Ole Rodrigo

HivemindXX wrote: »

What would you prefer to this situation?.

A zebra crossing. Or just cross without pressing the button, if there's a gap. Its not like there's an aversion to jaywalking.

eeeee

I have noticed a severe lack of patience and understanding over the last year and a half for some reason. Attitudes hardening and becoming more polarized, eg. 'all cyclists break lights/cycle on footpaths' etc. etc. On the few occasions last year I was in a taxi it came up a lot, there is a real 'them and us' mentality brewing amongst motorists. Why I don't know.

Another I think important thing is the amount of cyclists out there now has really jumped up. When I started cycling into college first ten years ago, the bike racks were pretty much empty, and there would be 20 bikes max at any one time. No one locked their bike either, we just left them there . Back in the same college now and there is 4 times the amount of bike parking and they're jammed full, bikes everywhere spread about the campus.
I notice it in town too, it's hard to find parking for the bike in busy spots where there would always be a spot free. I find myself having to park the bike in one place and walk around town, as opposed to cycle, go to where I need to go, cycle, go to next place etc.

What confuses me about all this is there are obviously way more cyclists on the road, the majority of whom also drive, yet it's a much more hostile environment to cycle around in Dublin now than it used to be, although there was always aggro. I stop at reds and amber-turning-red and get beeped at and shouted at from vans and cars. ASL's appear to be mainly decorative around town. I would have thought the growing number of cysts would make drivers more used to them and accepting of them on the road but the opposite appears to be happening.

I also see quite a bit of poor cyclist behaviour into and around town too, a lot of footpath cycling generally which always pisses me off and I never get out of their way if I'm walking on the path and they're barreling on towards me, and let them know they should be cycling on the road. I have a few times called other cyclists out on their behaviour but it mainly makes me feel like a bit of a dick so I gave up on that unless they cycle out in front of me from a side road/across a red light. And the shoaling. But that's not a legal issue, that's just a curtesy issue. There seems to be less consideration from both motorists and mainly other cyclists than there used to be.

I suppose it depends on where you cycle. My commuting is done into and across Dublin City Centre, and either the n11 and the rock roads which seem to be extremely contentious, even though they would be the busiest parts of the country for cyclists (town). So I'd imagine the most used to dealing with cyclist and the most considerate. On my training rides, solo or group I have never had a bit of hassle. Yet *touches wood*.

I get help accountable for all cycling's bad behaviour when people find out I cycle, and it get's really tiring having to defend it Every Time it comes up. I also get told I'm mad/mental/have some sort of death wish to be cycling around Dublin from people who don't cycle, followed by "I couldn't do it, god no never', no matter how much I protest it's a perfectly safe and really enjoyable way to get about. There's also seems to be a genuine sort of resentment against sport/lycra cyclists, why I don't know. They are the most mannerly group on the road in my experience cos you spend so much time on the road, you'd be toast if you weren't. 'Who do they think they are/they think they're in the Tour de France' etc. etc. Also some of my purely commuting friends are the same yet they cycle into and out of work every day but hate the sight of a Lycra clad roadie

ETA: Ultimately the majority of my cycling isn't antagonistic or hostile for the most part. But becoming more so.

TL; DR: familiarity breeds contempt it seems

CramCycle

As a counter, while the year is young, I have found that this year, thus far, has been almost 100% pleasant. Zero% hostility, long may it last,

dermabrasion

Another point is that we (the public) have been pissed off for the last 6-7yrs. The years before that we were ostentatious nobs. Every day, drivers listen to news that pisses them off even further (presented in RTE D minor). Must have some effect on drivers seething anger as they sit percolating in traffic as some cyclists do their thing.

Tenzor07

I would say the greatest source of hostility towards bicyclists happens online! In forums, Journal.ie, Indo. As well as radio programmes like "The right Hook".....