Irish Rail - Tailgating at Stations

devnull

The amount of no ticket fraud I see on Irish Rail on a daily basis is staggering.

In some stations there are people in offices, but they are too far away from the barriers, even though close distance wise, to see what happens at the barriers.

I'm seeing an increasing number of people tailgating at stations or two people traveling together and going through on one ticket.

Has there never been any thought to actually get the staff to stand at the gates at peak times to counter this? I know it happens at places like Connolly, but at some of the other stations it's an open secret that tailgating will never be punished.

Does anyone else see the same or is it just me?

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

The amount of no ticket fraud I see on Irish Rail on a daily basis is staggering.

In some stations there are people in offices, but they are too far away from the barriers, even though close distance wise, to see what happens at the barriers.

I'm seeing an increasing number of people tailgating at stations or two people traveling together and going through on one ticket.

Has there never been any thought to actually get the staff to stand at the gates at peak times to counter this? I know it happens at places like Connolly, but at some of the other stations it's an open secret that tailgating will never be punished.

Does anyone else see the same or is it just me?

I see a lot of fare dodging at unmanned intermediate stations. No need to tail gate! In fact I think as a paying customer I'm in the minority.

punisher5112

Sure I see most stations with at least 1 gate left open as the guy in office/ticket guy. Is too busy on phone or that to notice.

Why aren't the booths glass that they can see all around.

I am sick of the amount of fraud going on.

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

I see a lot of fare dodging at unmanned intermediate stations. No need to tail gate! In fact I think as a paying customer I'm in the minority.

I used to commute between two stations where there would never be staff in the afternoon at all. I did not see any in six months but always in the morning.

I paid every day in the afternoon but I often saw the same people tagging off with a leap card in the morning on the same train as me, but they never tagged on in the evening.

Clearly the fact that no staff are ever around made them realize there was no need to pay as was no chance of getting caught. I saw this guy do it almost every day for six months.

There are some stations where there is more than one set of gates or the gates are further away from the barriers where the guy in the office would never be able to see if people are tailgating. These are the stations where tailgating is rifle.

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

I used to commute between two stations where there would never be staff in the afternoon at all. I did not see any in six months but always in the morning.

I paid every day in the afternoon but I often saw the same people tagging off with a leap card in the morning on the same train as me, but they never tagged on in the evening.

Clearly the fact that no staff are ever around made them realize there was no need to pay as was no chance of getting caught. I saw this guy do it almost every day for six months.

There are some stations where there is more than one set of gates or the gates are further away from the barriers where the guy in the office would never be able to see if people are tailgating. These are the stations where tailgating is rifle.

I know someone who commuted between two stations on the Cork line for a year. He paid for the first week but was never checked, so didn't bother thereafter. In his final week he was caught, spun a line that the machine was broken, and got away with it! A year's worth of journeys for the price of a weekly ticket.

Closer to home I know of people doing the same as you describe. Some of them are even public sector!

Slippin Jimmy

Are there ticket inspectors on the darts?

L1011

Duffff-Man wrote: »

Are there ticket inspectors on the darts?

Yes, although crush capacity peak time trips are not practical to check.

There's more people saying they got on at Broombridge at Docklands every morning than actually get on; due to the fact that its completely impractical to get checkers on the train after Clonsilla.

Humour Me

Ironically enough I was asked for my ticket twice today on the dart by Revenue Protection - must be a new year resolution. Noticed a few people come into the carriage at a stop and get straight back off when they saw the hi vis.

L1011

Humour Me wrote: »

Ironically enough I was asked for my ticket twice today on the dart by Revenue Protection - must be a new year resolution. Noticed a few people come into the carriage at a stop and get straight back off when they saw the hi vis.

Wear hi-viz for a few mornings just to feck with them :pac:

desbrook

At Pearse morning and evening 3 days a week for the last four months. Never been checked on the train. One morning there were a row of checkers watching the barriers as the southbound darts deposited the mornings commuters. Total waste really as you could hop back on or simply not get off if you wanted.

Best option is plain clothes checkers undercover - never happen though.

hfallada

Humour Me wrote: »

Ironically enough I was asked for my ticket twice today on the dart by Revenue Protection - must be a new year resolution. Noticed a few people come into the carriage at a stop and get straight back off when they saw the hi vis.

In Germany, the ticket inspector on city centre transport are plain clothed. Like they wear normal clothes and make up. You will be casually sitting on a Ubahn and the doors will clothes. Immediately you will hear "Fahrausweis", which means tickets. The inspectors can do a tram the size of a luas in about 2 mins. They will even get on and wait a few mins so no one suspects they are inspectors. They look for cash immediately and if you dont have cash/id.Its a trip to a police station until you produce an ID from a friend.

The inspectors here in Dublin are ridiculous. The amount of times I have seen people sit at the top of the bus to look out for inspectors. Then get off when they are getting on the bus

schemingbohemia

Dun Laoghaire station is a joke for this. The wheelchair gate on the southbound platform side is nearly always left open, I've complained to IE before about it but as per usual the tail wags the dog and the staff are allowed to continue reading their papers while actively encouraging fare dodging.

Sierra Oscar

Even when there are staff at the barriers you still get people tailgating. I have seen groups of people tailgating at Connolly and just run off when there is an Irish Rail staff member and security at the far end of the barriers.

n97 mini

I constantly see teenage skobies at Connolly exiting via the Enterprise/carpark. I've said it to staff a few times, and they usually pre-empt what I'm going to say, so they know well about it. Not sure why nothing is done about it.

devnull

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Even when there are staff at the barriers you still get people tailgating. I have seen groups of people tailgating at Connolly and just run off when there is an Irish Rail staff member and security at the far end of the barriers.

But there is far bigger chance of getting caught in such situation, even if generally the staff could be far more pro-active.

Tonight the barriers were up at my local station when they never normally are, a guy saw this and there were staff there, and waited to pick his moment when there was a crowd of people there to tailgate.

He got off an earlier train than me since he was already near the barriers when I was walking up the stairs and I got off right next to them. He must have stood there since the last train and proceeded to tailgate someone.

You'd have to ask how someone can hang around there for 15 minutes, clearly without a ticket, and is able to wait for the next train to tailgate behind someone from it. You'd think it'd set alarm bells ringing.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

I constantly see teenage skobies at Connolly exiting via the Enterprise/carpark. I've said it to staff a few times, and they usually pre-empt what I'm going to say, so they know well about it. Not sure why nothing is done about it.

Just because they exited out the car park doesnt mean they didnt have tickets in the first place.

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Just because they exited out the car park doesnt mean they didnt have tickets in the first place.

15/16 year olds don't drive.

Heisenberg1

n97 mini wrote: »

15/16 year olds don't drive.

This is a huge problem at Connolly I've seen gangs yes gangs of teenagers walk up from oriel street onto platform 2 and over to platform 6 and they didn't have tickets.

devnull

Also there is a side door at Tara Street at the bottom of one of the staircases that can often be open that allows avoidance of barriers.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

15/16 year olds don't drive.

There is more than a car park through that gate .

Hilly Bill

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

This is a huge problem at Connolly I've seen gangs yes gangs of teenagers walk up from oriel street onto platform 2 and over to platform 6 and they didn't have tickets.

How did you know?

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How did you know?

They spilt in to little groups and when a train arrived in and crowds came of the train they would each run into the crowds and spilt off up to platform 6.

Hilly Bill

so they hanged around plat 2 waiting on trains to come in then?

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

so they hanged around plat 2 waiting on trains to come in then?

They were outside at the gate on platform 2 and when a train arrived they made their move.

Hilly Bill

I doubt very much that they hang around waiting on trains so that they can move to be honest.

boombang

I infrequently travel by DART but was tailgated at Tara St during the morning rush not so long ago. I didn't realise until a moment after. Had I copped I would have told him to buy his own ticket. I know it's illogical, but I felt particularly aggrieved as he was exiting on my fare.

A better one was getting off at Bray on a sunny afternoon during the summer. There was a young mother with two early teen daughters. All managed to blast through on one ticket. Mother then produced a large bottle of WKD and proceeded to swig from the neck. Her language was as blue as the drink too. I remember thinking "Enough money for daytime boozing in public in front of your kids, but not enough for the DART fare". However, I felt it would be unproductive to broach the issue with her.

may06

boombang wrote: »

I infrequently travel by DART but was tailgated at Tara St during the morning rush not so long ago. I didn't realise until a moment after. Had I copped I would have told him to buy his own ticket. I know it's illogical, but I felt particularly aggrieved as he was exiting on my fare.

A better one was getting off at Bray on a sunny afternoon during the summer. There was a young mother with two early teen daughters. All managed to blast through on one ticket. Mother then produced a large bottle of WKD and proceeded to swig from the neck. Her language was as blue as the drink too. I remember thinking "Enough money for daytime boozing in public in front of your kids, but not enough for the DART fare". However, I felt it would be unproductive to broach the issue with her.

Seems to be run of the mill in Tara St every morning..I see it most mornings..but then there's rarely an IR staff member policing it so not surprising that it continues to happen. Happened twice to me last week in Connolly also in the evening

gizmo555

It's instructive to see how persistent fare dodging is dealt with over the water:

A multimillionaire banker described as “the biggest fare dodger in history” was banned for life from working in financial services yesterday, as he claimed he had failed to pay for train tickets on only “a small number of occasions”.

Jonathan Burrows, 44, who was managing director at the US-owned asset management company BlackRock until he resigned in August, was found to have avoided paying a total of £42,550 by exploiting a loophole for about six years.

He regularly commuted from the unmanned station at Stonegate, East Sussex, to London. But instead of paying the daily fare of £21.50, he boarded the train without buying a ticket and then used the London transport system’s Oyster card to pass through the barriers, when he was automatically charged the maximum fee of £7.20.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/city-highflyer-banned-from-working-in-finance-after-dodging-42k-in-train-tickets-9926434.html

boombang

may06 wrote: »

Seems to be run of the mill in Tara St every morning..I see it most mornings..but then there's rarely an IR staff member policing it so not surprising that it continues to happen. Happened twice to me last week in Connolly also in the evening

You could do a great hidden camera expose of this. One camera on the gates catching the evaders, the other on the IR employee monitoring the international press.

But seriously, I think a photo and shame response would work well for Irish Rail. It is hard to catch people in the act, but easy on video review. Just print up a few stills on the offenders and put them up in the station and that would stop plenty I'd say. However, I expect somebody's going to tell me that's illegal.

Orion

I sometimes tailgate myself - but that's because the barriers are a pain in the bloody arse. They are way too slow to open and about 2 times in 10 I have to swipe the ticket twice or more before it recognises it. So I just swipe the ticket and if it doesn't register I keep walking anyway before the gate closes behind the person in front of me. I am a fully paying passenger - annual bus/rail ticket.

devnull

Saw a distraction version of this today, one guy sprinted at the speed of light after getting off the train, went up through the barriers with a ticket.

At the top of the stairs I saw him talking to the ticket guy about price of fares, can he fix his leap card and lost credit. Meanwhile a few of his mates were behind, one tailgated me and others tailgated other people.

I went to top up my leap card and the tailgators screams "Danny, lets go!" all of the lads go back together, and then they start joking about the ticket guy buying it!

I was surprised they had the intelligence to do that!

Hilly Bill

Orion wrote: »

I sometimes tailgate myself - but that's because the barriers are a pain in the bloody arse. They are way too slow to open and about 2 times in 10 I have to swipe the ticket twice or more before it recognises it. So I just swipe the ticket and if it doesn't register I keep walking anyway before the gate closes behind the person in front of me. I am a fully paying passenger - annual bus/rail ticket.

When you swipe your card you need to wait for them to open before walking through them. Ive seen too many people try and walk through the gates before they open and blame the gates and not themselves. You dont swipe the card so that may be your problem, just hold it against the pad.

devnull

Thing is, that some of the gates, especially at Tara Street, can be laggy at rush hour when people try to use a whole load of them at once.

may06

devnull wrote: »

Thing is, that some of the gates, especially at Tara Street, can be laggy at rush hour when people try to use a whole load of them at once.

Townsend St exit you can be certain there's normally a gate open most of the time. Have yet to see any IR staff there this year so far any morning.
Even yesterday evening a guy crossed in front of me in Connolly & tail-gated another passenger. Not suggesting he hadn't a ticket or anything...maybe he had and he had tried to swipe it already. Staff there passed no heed on him anyway.

dublindiehard

It's nowhere near as bad as some of you are making out.

I've never seen any tailgating in years of commuting ont he DART.

The inspectors and staff do a good job and I can be reasonably sure that any fare evasion is very low if it exists at all at most stations.

may06

dublindiehard wrote: »

It's nowhere near as bad as some of you are making out.

I've never seen any tailgating in years of commuting ont he DART.

The inspectors and staff do a good job and I can be reasonably sure that any fare evasion is very low if it exists at all at most stations.

Just cos you haven't seen it...means it doesn't happen so?

cython

dublindiehard wrote: »

It's nowhere near as bad as some of you are making out.

I've never seen any tailgating in years of commuting ont he DART.

The inspectors and staff do a good job and I can be reasonably sure that any fare evasion is very low if it exists at all at most stations.

I've seen plenty in the last 3 years, and from your post I can only assume you have not been on the DART on any of the fine weather days over the summer, e.g. the days of the disturbances around Portmarnock, etc. I encountered plenty of youths on trains at those times who were openly talking about having no tickets, and it's not surprising to be honest, given the number of unmanned stations on the network - if you're not boarding or alighting in the city centre you might never have to pass through a barrier, never mind be watched doing it!

Orion

Hilly Bill wrote: »

When you swipe your card you need to wait for them to open before walking through them. Ive seen too many people try and walk through the gates before they open and blame the gates and not themselves. You dont swipe the card so that may be your problem, just hold it against the pad.

As a daily commuter for 20 years I'm well aware of how the gates work. I'm talking about when the poxy machine refused to read my card. I'm not standing there trying again and again just because IR can't implement something that is in use in many other countries properly.

Hilly Bill

Orion wrote: »

As a daily commuter for 20 years I'm well aware of how the gates work. I'm talking about when the poxy machine refused to read my card. I'm not standing there trying again and again just because IR can't implement something that is in use in many other countries properly.

The gates are fine, the problem is people being inpatient and swiping the card. They try and walk through before the gates open. There isn't an issue of tailgating if you have the annual pass but don't complain if the gate closes on you and bangs your arm.

Orion

You're not reading my posts at all are you? I can hold it against the pad sometimes and it just doesn't read it. I am fully aware of how these gates work and how often they refuse to read the card. Get hung up on the word "swipe" all you like - the fact is that the machines are crap.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The gates are fine, the problem is people being inpatient and swiping the card. They try and walk through before the gates open. There isn't an issue of tailgating if you have the annual pass but don't complain if the gate closes on you and bangs your arm.

You should go to Tara Street during rush hour and see what happens when about 10 people use the gates all at the same time. There is often a few seconds of lag between hearing the chime for the card being read and the screen tagging on/off and the gates actually opening.

Tailgating certainly is an issue within Irish Rail and the problem lies with not enough enforcement of ticketing overall, which is something that is an issue in Dublin Bus as well. There simply is not enough enforcement of no ticket travel or underpaying throughout both companies, as someone I used to work with said, even if he gets caught 4-5 times a year, he's still better off than the average member of traveling public who pays full whack. He didn't tailgate though, no need when the barriers are always open in the afternoon and evening outside the city centre.

Orion

I've had it outside of rush hour too. Nobody going through and the damn machine won't read the card. Move to the next gate and it works there so it's not the card. That's why in rush hour I just go straight through without waiting to see if it reads it or not. The gate is always open long enough from the last passenger to follow through.

Luke92

Connolly station is really bad. Even with the security standing right at the barriers. Are they there just to stop violence and not ticket dodgers?

Orion

That's what security are for yes. They've dedicated teams for ticket dodgers.

Hilly Bill

Orion wrote: »

You're not reading my posts at all are you? I can hold it against the pad sometimes and it just doesn't read it. I am fully aware of how these gates work and how often they refuse to read the card. Get hung up on the word "swipe" all you like - the fact is that the machines are crap.

They work fine for thousands every day. Take your time and you will be grand. Your problem may be your card rather than the barrier.

Hilly Bill

Luke92 wrote: »

Connolly station is really bad. Even with the security standing right at the barriers. Are they there just to stop violence and not ticket dodgers?

The security are not there to stop fare evaders but will back up staff who challenge them.

foggy_lad

Even with the normal paper tickets the machines can be tempermental a lot of the time. there is a specific way of approaching the machine. You feed your ticket in the front and must wait for it to come out the top and remove it before you step in between the machine sides, if you step forward too soon or don't remove your ticket quickly enough then the barrier won't open until you stap back and clear the motion sensors and only then will the barrier open.

Many people get stopped in their tracks by these faulty/flawed machines which have been problematic from the time they were installed in most stations but especially in Connolly Heuston and Pearse.

devnull

I must admit I've not seen the problems here, the only problems I see is when about 10 people insert their tickets into 10 validators at the same time and a little lag.

I've also seen a weird situation where the tag on/off sound comes out of a different validator from the one I used, and even balance coming up on the adjacent screen rather than the one I put my ticket on, but that was fixed pretty quickly after being reported.

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I doubt very much that they hang around waiting on trains so that they can move to be honest.

Did you not ask me what I had seen or are you telling me what I had seen?? :rolleyes:

Hilly Bill

Im doubting your version of events not telling you what you saw. If any kids come up from the car park they will either walk or cycle through the station or walk or cycle around towards the dart platforms. They dont hang around at the gates off platform 2 waiting on any trains to pull in, they dont give a **** . They get thrown out a lot but they are used to it.

That gate is an ongoing issue and should be closed off somehow with access only by train ticket or car park ticket or leap etc .

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Im doubting your version of events not telling you what you saw. If any kids come up from the car park they will either walk or cycle through the station or walk or cycle around towards the dart platforms. They dont hang around at the gates off platform 2 waiting on any trains to pull in, they dont give a **** . They get thrown out a lot but they are used to it.

That gate is an ongoing issue and should be closed off somehow with access only by train ticket or car park ticket or leap etc .

Are you for real ?? You asked me question I gave you the answer go back and put the sign in the window and go back asleep will you.