Now Ye're Talking - to an Insurance Underwriter

Dav

Hello all and welcome to 2015

This week we have a professional feline in to answer questions about his job as an insurance underwriter and the insurance industry in general. It's one of the most misunderstood businesses around I think (in a past life I wrote insurance software, so I know a little bit about it) and of course, as it's mandatory for cars, most people hate it. But it seems fitting to follow an AMA with a Car Designer with an AMA from an Insurance person. Might see if we can hit up someone in the petrol business next...

So anyway, please welcome Business Cat to the forum. As before, I was going to make some puns about his time being at a premium and how you could rate his answers, but that's not my policy...

368100

Hi,

Great idea for a thread!

Does information like "mileage driven per year" and "is car is kept on driveway or garaged" really make a difference to a quote? They don't seem to.

And if not, why do insurance companies collect that data?

Thanks!

What do you look for when shopping around for car insurance?

Cookie_Monster

Why is insurance in ireland so insanely expensive, esp compared to other countries?

fred funk }{

Does it matter what value I state my car as or do you pay what you think it's worth regardless in the event of a write off.

Macker2001

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why is insurance in ireland so insanely expensive, esp compared to other countries?

You couldn't possibly mean car insurance?

Falcon L

Why is there a reluctance to accept NCB earned in another European country?

Why do I lose my NCB after 2 years insurance lapse? Am I suddenly considered a dangerous driver?

Why can't my NCB be used on a second vehicle, as it can in other European countries?

mirrorwall14

What sort of cases get referred to the underwriter? Is there any way to ensure that your claim is as straightforward as possible?

aphex™

Why do we need actuaries? Why not use flat price car insurance like they do in other countries (usa, poland) where most people pay the same price for insurance? Most insurance companies seem to settle disputes between each other from what I can see anyway.


Thanks!

Liam McPoyle

368100 wrote: »

Hi,

Great idea for a thread!

Does information like "mileage driven per year" and "is car is kept on driveway or garaged" really make a difference to a quote? They don't seem to.

And if not, why do insurance companies collect that data?

Thanks!

Mileage may make a difference in premium calculation if its very high eg in excess of 40,000 KM per year however for the average driver it does'nt.

Likewise with asking where the car is kept at night.

The main reason for requesting mileage, where the car is kept and other non rating questions are for use in the event of a claim.

Eg, someone gives their mileage as circa 10k per annum but they clock up 30k. They are involved in an accident. The question must be asked where did the extra mileage come from.

Does their occupation correlate with the miles clocked up?. Ive seen cases where someone would have occupation as student but on the side they were delivering take aways. Delivery drivers are outside of acceptance criteria for most insurers and the way it is, alot of people know that so they take a chance and dont declare it when buying a policy.

The mileage question can help give the insurer a better level of understanding and protection in the event of an accident where there may be a question over liability or when trying to decline a claim that they know happened on a fraudulently obtained policy.

Dozen Wicked Words

Is crash for cash a problem in Ireland?

Liam McPoyle

Dónal wrote: »

What do you look for when shopping around for car insurance?

The main things people (myself included) should look for in an insurance policy are

Excess - how much is the policy holder liable for in the event of a claim?

Breakdown assistance - Are there restrictions on it? Some insurers have the stipulation that you must be at least 1km from home before it takes effect. Some will not cover you for flat tyres or if the wrong fuel gets put in your tank.

Windscreen & glass cover - Is all glass covered - ie wind screen, side and back windows. Some insurers have an issue with panoramic wind screens so if your car has one you should make them aware of this. Is there an excess on glass claims, are there recommended repairers that must be used.

Driving of other cars - what level of cover applies ie comprehensive or third party only (usually third party only)

Price - Price shouldn't be a major consideration when buying insurance. Of course its very important however the cheapest does'nt mean the best and in a lot of cases, its the cheapest for a reason. Could be an excess, restrictions on covers etc.

Always read the fine print!

Liam McPoyle

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why is insurance in ireland so insanely expensive, esp compared to other countries?

Macker2001 wrote: »

You couldn't possibly mean car insurance?

At Cookie, Im presuming as Macker indicated your query in the main relates to car insurance.

Unfortunately there is no simple answer but I will give you some of the reasons as to why its higher than some of our counterparts.

The main reason why insurance premiums are on the up is down to claims made and pretty much everything else is tied into it. The Irish insurance market is relatively small in comparison to the UK, Germany, France etc and as a result there is a finite amount of premium available.

As there is limited premiums available for personal lines insurance, all the personal lines (car, home & home) underwriters in this country such as Aviva, Zurich, Liberty, FBD etc also write commercial lines (shops, pubs, tradesmen, etc).

Insurance is essentially a pot where all premium paid goes in and all operating costs & claims goes out of the same pot.

There are strict guidelines in place that insurers must adhere to, Solvency II been the most important one currently.

What it basically means is that insurers must have a minimum fund in place at all times in order to off set any future claims. In 2014 Setanta Insurance did not adhere to this and as a result they went bust. At the back end of 2013 123.ie (underwritten by Royal Sun Alliance) announced that they had under reserved by something in the region of €250,000,000 and had to have capital injected by the parent company.

Over the last 12 to 18 months as the Irish economy has turned a corner and more jobs have been created, that means there are more vehicles on the road than has been for the last couple of years, more vehicles means more claims.

Weather wise we have been pretty battered over the last couple of years between flooding, storms and freezing conditions. All of these effects have resulted in huge property damage claims. Again, these claims all have to be paid out of the same pot.

What people do not seem to appreciate is that one claim can literally cost millions of euro. I remember in a previous job I encountered a motor claim. The mother had gotten a policy for her son in her name but him as a named driver on some Jap import yoke. Son goes out one night and crashes the car which resulted in 2 fatalities. At the time I saw it over €1,300,000 had been paid out and the claim was still live. The accident a couple of years ago in Donegal which resulted in 7 or 8 people losing their lives, Ive no doubt that will end up costing upwards of €5,000,000 at a minimum.

Again, the 2 above examples all have to be paid out of the same pot so it takes alot of €500 policies to balance the books!

Insurance companies ultimately are looking to make an underwriting profit and have as low as possible a loss ratio.

A loss ratio is simply put, how much money is been been taken in Vs how much is been paid out on claims.

A loss ratio less than 100% means a profit is been made.

A loss ratio more than 100% means a loss is been made.

The non life insurance (personal and commercial lines) market in Ireland in 2012 had a loss ratio of 107% which basically means that for every €1 taken in, €1.07 was been paid out on claims. It has deteriorated since then so as a result premiums have to increase to stay within the solvency rules and to keep operating.

Then you have to take into account operational costs such as wages, stationary, light and heat, etc

Zurich Insurance for example recently released that they had not made an operating profit in 7 years!

Claims experience and loss ratio's are the main reasons for the premium levels we have at the moment, and they are only going to increase Im afraid.

Liam McPoyle

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Does it matter what value I state my car as or do you pay what you think it's worth regardless in the event of a write off.

In the event of a total loss - ie a theft claim with the vehicle not recovered, destroyed by fire or written off in an accident - you will only ever get what the insurance company deem to be the market value at the time of the loss.

Some insurance companies have a sophisticated system in place that when they enter the reg it automatically generates the market value. Its based on data from garages, motor websites etc.

Some insurers will also charge you extra premium depending on the vehicle value however will still only pay out the market value.

My advice would always be when entering the vehicle value yourself to over cast it by a couple of grand as that generally wont cost you anything extra but also gives you a cushion in the event of a total loss.

Omackeral

Does this ad make you want to gouge your own eyes out with a dessert spoon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1jltMLa-KA

Liam McPoyle

Falcon L wrote: »

Why is there a reluctance to accept NCB earned in another European country?

The difficulty can be proving that it actually is a real bonus. Anyone can print something off the internet or get a template and fill in what ever they want themselves. When a bonus comes in from an Irish based insurer its a matter of picking up the phone to check its validity, not easy if it comes from some random European country.

Falcon L wrote: »

Why do I lose my NCB after 2 years insurance lapse? Am I suddenly considered a dangerous driver?

This is something that I dont agree with I must admit, it doesn't mean that people have become bad drivers or anything.

From a purely underwriting perspective, if someone said they had a bonus that expired 3 years ago Id ask a number of questions.

Why havnt they been driving for the last 3 years?

Were they possibly put off the road?

Had they a medical condition that ment they couldn't drive?

Were they in prison?

In most cases its for genuine reasons but there are also cases where there are shady goings on.

There would also be the argument that if someone hasnt been driving in more than 2 years that they are out of practice and there fore a bigger hazard than someone that has been driving regularly.

Falcon L wrote: »

Why can't my NCB be used on a second vehicle, as it can in other European countries?

The argument there is that a bonus is earned by one person, one person = one bonus = one vehicle covered. If the industry allowed one bonus to cover more than one vehicle the risk and potential exposure increases exponentially. If there was a named driver on one of the vehicles then essentially 2 vehicles are on the road for one bonus.

There would also be the issue of what would happen in the event of a claim. Do both bonuses get deleted etc.

Liam McPoyle

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

What sort of cases get referred to the underwriter?

Could be for any number of reasons.

Age of driver.
Car type/value/spec/imported/age.
Claims experience.
Occupation.
Class of use (eg sales rep)

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Is there any way to ensure that your claim is as straightforward as possible?

Unfortunately not. For a single vehicle accident ie you crash your own car then in general they are open and shut cases.

When liability is in dispute or there is a personal injury claim involved, thats when things can and do get messy and can drag on for years.

368100

Business Cat wrote: »

Mileage may make a difference in premium calculation if its very high eg in excess of 40,000 KM per year however for the average driver it does'nt.

Likewise with asking where the car is kept at night.

The main reason for requesting mileage, where the car is kept and other non rating questions are for use in the event of a claim.

Eg, someone gives their mileage as circa 10k per annum but they clock up 30k. They are involved in an accident. The question must be asked where did the extra mileage come from.

Does their occupation correlate with the miles clocked up?. Ive seen cases where someone would have occupation as student but on the side they were delivering take aways. Delivery drivers are outside of acceptance criteria for most insurers and the way it is, alot of people know that so they take a chance and dont declare it when buying a policy.

The mileage question can help give the insurer a better level of understanding and protection in the event of an accident where there may be a question over liability or when trying to decline a claim that they know happened on a fraudulently obtained policy.

Cheers!

Liam McPoyle

aphex™ wrote: »

Why do we need actuaries? Why not use flat price car insurance like they do in other countries (usa, poland) where most people pay the same price for insurance? Most insurance companies seem to settle disputes between each other from what I can see anyway.


Thanks!

Risk rating tbh.

If you wanted to have everyone paying the same premium from a 17 year old lad on a provisional licence to a 55 year old housewife, what premium do you put on it? €700, €800, €1000?

Invariably most people will end up spending more in the long run if everyone paid the same rather than people paying premiums based on their experience and driving history.

In terms of insurers settling the disputes between themselves, thats all well and good for a 50/50 claim where there is no clear fault but what about the driver that mills someone out of it after having a couple of shandies?

Its the personal injury or fatality incidents that are the cause of most high claims and in general its going to be one company that foots the bill for each one.

mirrorwall14

Are you specifically in motor insurance? I worked in a call centre for a life insurer in my early 20s and some of the claims refusals and wait times were horrendous. Is that still the case today?

Liam McPoyle

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Is crash for cash a problem in Ireland?

Not just crash for cash but the compensation culture in this country is massive.

Below are a couple of examples of real claims that Ive seen over the last 5 and a half years.


Family staying in a Hotel, some random guy manages to get into the room in the early hours of the morning after having too much to drink. He does'nt do anything other than apologise and get totally embarrassed when the kids start screaming and he leaves the room. Claim for "emotional trauma and distress" against the Hotel, €25,000 paid.

Couple staying in a Hotel, find a used condom in the locker beside one of the beds. €15,000 paid for shock/disgust.

Guy at a wedding, totally hammered, runs out of the Hotel and vaults over a wall and lands on a rock, breaking his femur. Tries and fails to sue the Hotel, ends up suing the farmer whose field he landed in, €48,000 paid.

Guy in a pub, hammered, falls off his stool and ends up fracturing his skull, €400,000 paid out.

Individual that had been caught shop lifting in a supermarket on a number of occasions previously gets approached by the security guard who knows them and their form. Turns out said individual didn't try and steal anything on this occasion but he did manage to get himself €15,000 for the embarrassment of wrongful arrest.

Its all too common that people see insurance fraud (by fraud I mean false and/or exaggerated claims) as a victimless crime but its not as it just ends up costing the average, honest punter extra money. I would have no problem in shopping someone in that I suspected or knew had a dodgy claim.

Liam McPoyle

Omackeral wrote: »

Does this ad make you want to gouge your own eyes out with a dessert spoon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1jltMLa-KA

Its awful as well as been incredibly sexist. Its also a bit misleading as its implying that because its a female only policy it will be cheaper than other companies but the risk equalisation that came in at the back end of 2012 took care of that.


For those that dont know, the risk equalisation was an EU ruling that stated gender could no longer be used as a factor when determining insurance premiums.

mackes

Why is car insurance dearer in limerick City than anywhere else? When I go to renew every year for the past couple of years I've entered the exact same details for other cities and limerick is always dearer.

Liam McPoyle

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Are you specifically in motor insurance? I worked in a call centre for a life insurer in my early 20s and some of the claims refusals and wait times were horrendous. Is that still the case today?

Im specifically in commercial lines at the moment with a small smattering of personal lines thrown in. I worked in personal lines for over 3 years as well.

Life in quite different to non life. I dont have any experience in the life market but from what I do know of it, its incredibly cut throat, similar to health insurance in that the slightest mistake means hefty punishment.

It is certainly a case of "buyer beware" when it comes to life or health insurance.

Liam McPoyle

mackes wrote: »

Why is car insurance dearer in limerick City than anywhere else? When I go to renew every year for the past couple of years I've entered the exact same details for other cities and limerick is always dearer.

My guess would be loss ratio / claims experience.

Unfortunately, Limerick has a bad rep due to a small unsavory element and that results in everyone suffering.

In my experience border counties - Donegal, Louth, Monaghan, Cavan, are rated higher in comparison to other parts of the country for the exact same kind of car. Again, it comes down to claims experience in those counties. Donegal in particular is an insurance black spot.

Kelly06

On my last renewal my insurance went from 650 to over 1200 with no claims made on the policy and full no claims discount. Reason given by 123.ie was that insurance was going up for everyone. How can insurers justify this?

Little A

This is something that I dont agree with I must admit, it doesn't mean that people have become bad drivers or anything.

From a purely underwriting perspective, if someone said they had a bonus that expired 3 years ago Id ask a number of questions.

Above was to do with NCB & losing it after a few years.

I am currently on a fleet policy, will I lose my no claims after 2 years or will the fact I can prove I have been covered mean I can keep it if I change job?

Also, what do you think about the 2 years for Novice drivers? Will the "N" timeslot affect insurance & (as a professional!) do you think it is a suitable timeframe?

Cheers & very informative!!

FF7 7777

Business Cat wrote: »

Zurich Insurance for example recently released that they had not made an operating profit in 7 years!

The Brother just mentioned yesterday that when he was pricing around he was actually shocked to see them offer a good price for a change, they are usually hundreds dearer every year.

That's the reason then.

kerry4sam

I was going to ask in Motors but sure here you go instead if you don't mind.

Don't want to go into details, however I will say that they were at fault and admitted liability at the scene. I now know they have a young family & do drive for a company for a living and am just curious as to how a claim would impact on their policy? ... the effects of the incident are still on-going.

Many Thanks,
kerry4sam

Liam McPoyle

Kelly06 wrote: »

On my last renewal my insurance went from 650 to over 1200 with no claims made on the policy and full no claims discount. Reason given by 123.ie was that insurance was going up for everyone. How can insurers justify this?

As I mentioned above, 123.ie under reserved their claims fund and had to get €250 million of an injection from RSA.

Have you noticed how little they are advertising nowadays?

A couple of years ago you couldnt open a newspaper or pick up your post without a circular/flyer from them falling out. Likewise with their TV advertising, there seemed to be an ad for them during every single commercial break.

So they are cutting costs and raising premiums for alot of people.

The increase you were hit with though sounds as if they could be trying to get rid of you.

Its common practice in the industry and is known as "rating to exit", essentially it means that a particular class of business - could be car type, area you live in, occupation etc - is no longer within their target market.

As they are legally bound to offer you a quote they offer a premium much higher than what you paid last year on a take it or leave it basis. Obviously nobody will swallow that so you will try and likely succeed in getting a cheaper alternative elsewhere.

As a guide, the average rate increase would be between 10 to 15% on last years premiums. Any more than that then Id be looking elsewhere.

Another thing that people should be aware of. Some insurers have software in place that increases premiums higher depending on how long a person has been with them. The logic is that if a person is with the company for X years, they are less likely to leave so they will pay a higher premium without any qualms.

mikemac1

The lads I know doing takeaway deliveries don't declare as insurance companies ask about this and it'll raise the premium.

Do claims ever get denied over this for takeaway delivery drivers?

If Mark crashes the car at 10pm in a lamppost with a few deliveries in the back seat how would an insurance company ever know what he was doing? If Mark crashes into another car and the gardai are called and take statements are the insurance company looking for evidence from a report that a driver was working?

Liam McPoyle

Little A wrote: »

Above was to do with NCB & losing it after a few years.

I am currently on a fleet policy, will I lose my no claims after 2 years or will the fact I can prove I have been covered mean I can keep it if I change job?

Also, what do you think about the 2 years for Novice drivers? Will the "N" timeslot affect insurance & (as a professional!) do you think it is a suitable timeframe?

Cheers & very informative!!

Most insurers will allow you the benefit of driving on the fleet. If and when you are moving on what you will require is a letter from your employer to state you were driving on the fleet for X amount of years and a letter from the insurer to confirm you were not involved in any accidents for the duration. Once the driving was concurrent then you should still be able to get the benefit of it however that can be down to an individual insurers discretion.


That Ive seen, the novice driver thing is not a factor. People either have a provisional licence or a full licence. The duration that the person has held a full licence is not taken into account. In the future it may become an issue or a rating factor but at the moment (that Im aware of at least) its not.

The problem with the N drivers is that it doesn't take into account peoples driving experience up to that point. There are many people that are driving for years and years but never got a full licence. I wouldn't consider these individuals to be novice drivers.

When it comes to drivers that are inexperienced, its a good thing and I believe its to protect other road users as opposed to the N driver themselves but for experienced drivers, its a bit pointless imo.

Liam McPoyle

kerry4sam wrote: »

I was going to ask in Motors but sure here you go instead if you don't mind.

Don't want to go into details, however I will say that they were at fault and admitted liability at the scene. I now know they have a young family & do drive for a company for a living and am just curious as to how a claim would impact on their policy? ... the effects of the incident are still on-going.

Many Thanks,
kerry4sam

Firstly, for anyone reading NEVER NEVER NEVER admit liability at the scene of an accident, even if you are completely and utterly at fault, its a matter for your insurance company, they are trained professionals and know how to handle the matters like this, you are leaving yourself and your insurer with your pants down if you admit to being at fault.

The info above is very vague but Im taking it that the driver was driving under their own insurance rather than in a company vehicle?

It wont have any bearing on their job or the insurance for their employer. On their own policy it could result in a loss of bonus (depending on the level of bonus protection they had). If the claim is still outstanding when their renewal comes around they will have to stay with their current insurer as no company will take someone on with an open claim.

Liam McPoyle

FF7 7777 wrote: »

The Brother just mentioned yesterday that when he was pricing around he was actually shocked to see them offer a good price for a change, they are usually hundreds dearer every year.

That's the reason then.

Zurich in general would be fairly consistent with their pricing, good company and a good policy tbh.

Liam McPoyle

mikemac1 wrote: »

The lads I know doing takeaway deliveries don't declare as insurance companies ask about this and it'll raise the premium.

Do claims ever get denied over this for takeaway delivery drivers?

If Mark crashes the car at 10pm in a lamppost with a few deliveries in the back seat how would an insurance company ever know what he was doing? If Mark crashes into another car and the gardai are called and take statements are the insurance company looking for evidence from a report that a driver was working?

Of course claims can be declined, its non disclosure of material fact!!!

If someone buys an insurance policy and doesn't answer all the questions truthfully, then has an accident, the company is well within their rights to decline a claim if they become aware of the omission.

You would be surprised how easy it is for insurance companies to find out what people are up to. If a company thinks a policy holder was up to something they shouldn't have been up to, you can bet your bottom dollar they will do everything to not pay out.

The circumstances of the incident would be required, people tend to get flustered when questioned by the guards and alot of the time will panic and blurt out what they were doing before the crash, all incident reports will be requested by the insurer.

Of course it can be difficult to prove someone was working as a delivery driver if its a single vehicle incident but as I said, you would be surprised how easily companies can get information.

mel.b

Why do many insurance companies refuse to cover or charge more for imports? In all likelihood the cars were made in the same factory but one has a different badge.

Liam McPoyle

mel.b wrote: »

Why do many insurance companies refuse to cover or charge more for imports? In all likelihood the cars were made in the same factory but one has a different badge.

There are a number of reasons for insurers refusing imports.


- The vehicle may have been modified outside of the factory standards

- difficult or costly to source parts or replacements in the event of a loss

- security features may be sub standard such as no immobiliser in place

- the vehicle itself may be sub EU standard in terms of its manufacture

- generally higher powered/higher spec than their Irish counterparts

- very attractive for theft

- import vehicles tend to be the realm of young male drivers, an insurer taking one on can end up exposed when the policy holder adds on little brother or their son

dulpit

I had a (very) low speed crash in Feb 2013, I ran into the back of another car. No damage done to cars, everyone seemed fine and the driver & her husband were lovely about it. A few weeks later a claim comes through from the back seat passenger claiming injury.

Went to insurance, they said they'd look after it, but as I ran into them it'd be unlikely that anything other than a pay out to the person would happen. Claim went in in March 2013, since then the passenger rejected insurance comapny's offer and went to the personal injuries board. After a long time they made their ruling, she rejected that too. Latest information I have is that the case is going to go to court at some stage.

Based on this experience, I have a few questions:

1. How common is this (that you're aware of)? I'm surprised she's willing to go to court, and all it makes me feel is that she's out for a few bob for herself...
2. When accident happened and I got in touch with insurance, they said that when my renewal came (in May) I'd lose no claims, but wouldn't otherwise be penalised. When renewal did come my base premium (i.e. excluding the no claims) was significantly higher, and there was nothing I could do to change (as claim is open). Is this always the case with accidents? That there is an increase of premium as well as a loss of no claims?
3. Because the claim is still open, I'm locked with AA as my insurer until closed. I had been getting policy with Aviva through them, but they (Aviva) no longer offer policies with AA, so I was shifted to RSA. This was over a year after claim went in, so I now had 1 years no claims, but my insruance premium jumped again (by a few hundred euro). Sounds to me like they're trying to get me off their books, but I'm stuck until claim is closed - any suggestions to get around this?
4. When claims go to court and liability is already known (i.e. I drove into them), is there ever a situation where no payment would be made? Or is it a given they'll get paid, and the question is how much?
5. An assessor who called out to me told me that from their point of view in this case, the bump was at such a low speed and with no damage at all done that they don't think/believe that any injury has been done, but they said that they're not in the business of contesting these sort of issues. Does this not make it very easy for anyone to say they're hurt and gouge people for money?
6. On an unrelated note, you mentioned previously about mad pay-outs, who's at fault that these are being awarded? Insurance companies? The claimants? Judges? Mixture?

Cheers!

Clearlier

Any funny claims stories? Fraudulent claims gone wrong? Darwin award type behaviour?

mirrorwall14

What qualifications do you have?

Liam McPoyle

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

What qualifications do you have?

I will answer the 2 questions above this one when I get home. I'm on the touch site and the answers will be quite long and it's a pain in the face writing long answers on the phone!


Re qualifications, job related I'm CIP qualified, that means I'm a certified insurance practitioner, it takes 6 exams to get the qualification.

Next step will be the MDI (management diploma in insurance) and I hope to sit the first one of those this year.

Vito Andolini

A neighbours car went on fire parked up outside his house, when the accessor came out to look over it he told him "your father had a car burn out on him a couple of years ago too." Could that be true that the accessor knew the neighbour swears it is?

chrysagon

Business Cat wrote: »

Mileage may make a difference in premium calculation if its very high eg in excess of 40,000 KM per year however for the average driver it does'nt.

Likewise with asking where the car is kept at night.

The main reason for requesting mileage, where the car is kept and other non rating questions are for use in the event of a claim.

Eg, someone gives their mileage as circa 10k per annum but they clock up 30k. They are involved in an accident. The question must be asked where did the extra mileage come from.

Does their occupation correlate with the miles clocked up?. Ive seen cases where someone would have occupation as student but on the side they were delivering take aways. Delivery drivers are outside of acceptance criteria for most insurers and the way it is, alot of people know that so they take a chance and dont declare it when buying a policy.

The mileage question can help give the insurer a better level of understanding and protection in the event of an accident where there may be a question over liability or when trying to decline a claim that they know happened on a fraudulently obtained policy.

or an opportunity to refuse to pay?

chrysagon

What is the lifetime no claims discount insurance companies offer?..I was told it didnt matter how many claims, it wouldnt affect my policy, so if thats the case, why ask about penalty points?

thanks

Liam McPoyle

Vito Andolini wrote: »

A neighbours car went on fire parked up outside his house, when the accessor came out to look over it he told him "your father had a car burn out on him a couple of years ago too." Could that be true that the accessor knew the neighbour swears it is?

It could be something as simple as the accessor recognising the area / customer.

A more likely scenario is that if the claim that both had was with the same company then the fact they were father and child was likely recorded on their database and as a result the claims were associated by way of the clients.

Liam McPoyle

chrysagon wrote: »

or an opportunity to refuse to pay?

If incorrect information was provided at inception and said information may be a factor in the accident?

Damn right they would try and decline the claim.

Vojera

Hello Business Cat! I have two questions:

1) Has pet insurance ever really taken off in Ireland? I have guinea pigs, so I can't insure them here (they're classed as exotic), but I don't see pet insurance in general advertised as widely as I used to. Is there much interest in the market?

2) Have you ever had a gut feeling about something where everything seemed okay on paper but something felt a bit off? If so, is there anything you can actually do about it?

KrakityJones

Hi,

Interesting reading so far, thanks.

How are people getting away with advertising say 2Litre cars as "1.5 on the log book" - I presume if they insure the car as a 1.5 they are in effect completely uninsured?

And a related question - if you don't declare an aftermarket mod on your car are you equally as "uninsured" - and at what point does this kick in? EG If I change from 16" to 15" wheels or Add a dump valve Vs putting in a cooling system & ecu that bumps up the cars power by 100HP

In short are there a lot of people out there with modified cars that if they are involved in any sort of accident are going to be in serious trouble (For the record I drive a 1.4 renault megane so not in that category but curious as I'd know others who would be)

Falcon L

Business Cat wrote: »

The difficulty can be proving that it actually is a real bonus. Anyone can print something off the internet or get a template and fill in what ever they want themselves. When a bonus comes in from an Irish based insurer its a matter of picking up the phone to check its validity, not easy if it comes from some random European country.


The argument there is that a bonus is earned by one person, one person = one bonus = one vehicle covered. If the industry allowed one bonus to cover more than one vehicle the risk and potential exposure increases exponentially. If there was a named driver on one of the vehicles then essentially 2 vehicles are on the road for one bonus.

There would also be the issue of what would happen in the event of a claim. Do both bonuses get deleted etc.

Thanks for the answers. Just a follow-up if I may.
I had the problem of NCB not being accepted on my return to Ireland. The NCB wasn't from some random country or a dodgy insurance company. The country was a major player in Europe and the insurer was a multi-national that was very happy to take phone calls, in English, to verify the NCB. Still many companies wouldn't accept it.

When I lived elsewhere in Europe (the major player) I had 2 cars insured on 2 policies with my wife named on both. The company accepted my Irish NCB and applied it to both policies. If one of the cars was involved in a 'at fault' claim, the NCB would be affected on the policy of the vehicle involved only.

My feeling is that Irish insurers will come up with any excuse they can think of to screw the client. This, in my experience, doesn't happen in all European countries.

Mars Bar

Business Cat wrote: »

Not just crash for cash but the compensation culture in this country is massive.

Below are a couple of examples of real claims that Ive seen over the last 5 and a half years.


Family staying in a Hotel, some random guy manages to get into the room in the early hours of the morning after having too much to drink. He does'nt do anything other than apologise and get totally embarrassed when the kids start screaming and he leaves the room. Claim for "emotional trauma and distress" against the Hotel, €25,000 paid.

Couple staying in a Hotel, find a used condom in the locker beside one of the beds. €15,000 paid for shock/disgust.

Guy at a wedding, totally hammered, runs out of the Hotel and vaults over a wall and lands on a rock, breaking his femur. Tries and fails to sue the Hotel, ends up suing the farmer whose field he landed in, €48,000 paid.

Guy in a pub, hammered, falls off his stool and ends up fracturing his skull, €400,000 paid out.

Individual that had been caught shop lifting in a supermarket on a number of occasions previously gets approached by the security guard who knows them and their form. Turns out said individual didn't try and steal anything on this occasion but he did manage to get himself €15,000 for the embarrassment of wrongful arrest.

Its all too common that people see insurance fraud (by fraud I mean false and/or exaggerated claims) as a victimless crime but its not as it just ends up costing the average, honest punter extra money. I would have no problem in shopping someone in that I suspected or knew had a dodgy claim.

I have no question. I just want to say that the above post has me fuming!! :mad:

Liam McPoyle

dulpit wrote: »

I had a (very) low speed crash in Feb 2013, I ran into the back of another car. No damage done to cars, everyone seemed fine and the driver & her husband were lovely about it. A few weeks later a claim comes through from the back seat passenger claiming injury.

Went to insurance, they said they'd look after it, but as I ran into them it'd be unlikely that anything other than a pay out to the person would happen. Claim went in in March 2013, since then the passenger rejected insurance comapny's offer and went to the personal injuries board. After a long time they made their ruling, she rejected that too. Latest information I have is that the case is going to go to court at some stage.

Based on this experience, I have a few questions:

1. How common is this (that you're aware of)? I'm surprised she's willing to go to court, and all it makes me feel is that she's out for a few bob for herself...
2. When accident happened and I got in touch with insurance, they said that when my renewal came (in May) I'd lose no claims, but wouldn't otherwise be penalised. When renewal did come my base premium (i.e. excluding the no claims) was significantly higher, and there was nothing I could do to change (as claim is open). Is this always the case with accidents? That there is an increase of premium as well as a loss of no claims?
3. Because the claim is still open, I'm locked with AA as my insurer until closed. I had been getting policy with Aviva through them, but they (Aviva) no longer offer policies with AA, so I was shifted to RSA. This was over a year after claim went in, so I now had 1 years no claims, but my insruance premium jumped again (by a few hundred euro). Sounds to me like they're trying to get me off their books, but I'm stuck until claim is closed - any suggestions to get around this?
4. When claims go to court and liability is already known (i.e. I drove into them), is there ever a situation where no payment would be made? Or is it a given they'll get paid, and the question is how much?
5. An assessor who called out to me told me that from their point of view in this case, the bump was at such a low speed and with no damage at all done that they don't think/believe that any injury has been done, but they said that they're not in the business of contesting these sort of issues. Does this not make it very easy for anyone to say they're hurt and gouge people for money?
6. On an unrelated note, you mentioned previously about mad pay-outs, who's at fault that these are being awarded? Insurance companies? The claimants? Judges? Mixture?

Cheers!

Terrible situation to find yourself in mate an all too common.

1) Going as far as court proceedings, while not unheard of, is surprising considering the relatively low impact speed and the fact that no other occupants are claiming. On the surface of it, it does sound like this person is on a money making endeavor. All you can is ride it out and hope that a judge with a bit of common sense hears the case.

2) Sounds like they applied a claims loading to your policy. A claims loading is basically an extra penalty imposed on drivers that claim. Its not unheard of but again, given the circumstances of the accident its very harsh. They are unfortunately well within their rights to do this.

3) The only possibility for you would be to contact Aviva directly at your next renewal date. As they were insurer concerned at the time of the incident then theoretically they should be able to offer you a quote. Now that quote could be through the roof so there are no guarantees. Failing that, all you can do is wait for the claim to be settled and move on then.

4) Ive heard of instances where claims have been thrown out by a judge on the back of the evidence presented. That would be a rarity though as in general, if it gets that far, the injured parties solicitor would be fairly confident of getting a result.

5) Yep. I remember a number of years ago, long before I worked in insurance, I was in my home town on a Friday afternoon and the traffic was literally bumper to bumper. A guy in a lorry had a momentary lapse of concentration and the lorry jerked forward into the back of a crewcab. There was no more than 4 or 5 inches between both vehicles before the incident, the crewcab itself didnt budge or collide with the vehicle in front of it yet lo and behold, everyone in the crewcab started wailing in pain and all 5 refused to exit the vehicle until the ambulances were called and they were carted off to hospital.

The above, and your own situation is why the insurance market in Ireland is so screwy. People making false or exaggerated claims in the hopes of making a few quid. Unfortunately with the likes of back injuries, neck injuries, whiplash etc it is damn near impossible to prove or disprove the existence of injuries of this type and invariably the benefit of the doubt goes in favor of the "injured" party.

6) The large payouts are a difficult one to call tbh. Invariably they arise as the result of a fatality or an accident that resulted in catastrophic, life altering injuries.

There was a case a couple of years ago where some poor child ended up with a horrendous brain injury after his mother crashed the car and the judge awarded something in the region of €10,000,000.

In situations like that its up to the judge to decide how much gets paid out, with the help of medical reports, detailed actuarial reports and witness testimony.

What needs to be taken into account includes

- Level of care required
- Modifications to home, car, medical bills, equipment etc
- Loss of earnings
- Life expectancy of the injured party

So using the example cited above, that young man could realistically live into his 50's, 60's or more.

He needs to be compensated for all of the above, for the loss of quality of life, for life time care etc.

Its extremely difficult to put a "fair" figure on cases like this.






****Caveat****

Anything Im posting about specific cases is purely my opinion only based on what was reported in the media, Im not connected with any of them in any way.