Respect for the religious + religion - where does it start/stop?

JaseBelleVie

Lucifer Morning Star put this in After Hours. Next time I'm forced to go to mass, I'm definitely mumbling this as everyone else says the "Our Father".

O Mighty Lord Satan, by whom all things are set free, I cast myself utterly into thine arms and place myself unreservedly under thy all powerful protection. Comfort me and deliver me from all of the hindrances and snares of those who wish to harm me, both seen and unseen.
Visit justice and vengeance upon those who seek my destruction. Render them powerless and devastated. Direct their malice to return upon them tenfold and to destroy them who would resent my being.
Fill my soul with thy invincible power, strengthen me, that I may persevere in my service, and act as an agent of thy works and a vessel of thy will.
This I ask in your name, almighty and ineffable Lord Satan who liveth and reigneth forevermore.
Ave Satanas

Hotblack Desiato

I only go to funerals, and of people I actually miss

I go, I stand up when others do, I sit down when others do, but I kneel before no-one. I say nothing, I do not take communion, and I offend nobody.


wait a minute, 'forced to go to mass' really?? or rather 'I'm coerced by my mammy and want some internet relief'

obplayer

JaseHeath wrote: »

Lucifer Morning Star put this in After Hours. Next time I'm forced to go to mass, I'm definitely mumbling this as everyone else says the "Our Father".

Can I ask what age you are? By the time I was 14 my parents had given up trying to force me into anything, unless they were willing to use physical force.

JaseBelleVie

obplayer wrote: »

Can I ask what age you are? By the time I was 14 my parents had given up trying to force me into anything, unless they were willing to use physical force.

Ha, I guess "forced" is a bit strong.

I'm 27.

It's more of a guilt thing and they throw in the "family-unity" card and all this. But yeah, "forced" is a bit strong of a word.

Bandana boy

JaseHeath wrote: »

Lucifer Morning Star put this in After Hours. Next time I'm forced to go to mass, I'm definitely mumbling this as everyone else says the "Our Father".

Why would you be so disrespectful to something your family obviously cares about ?
What would you gain from it ,and would it hurt your family if they heard you muttering a satanic prayer in their church

Bad idea all round

RikuoAmero

Bandana boy wrote: »

Why would you be so disrespectful to something your family obviously cares about ?
What would you gain from it ,and would it hurt your family if they heard you muttering a satanic prayer in their church

Bad idea all round

Why are they being so disrespectful of him and his desires not to go to church?

The respect card works in both directions, just so you know.

robindch

magicbastarder

last time i was at mass that didn't involve a funeral or wedding was in 1994, and i only went cos i was joining the other guys who were going in the pub afterwards.

Bandana boy

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Why are they being so disrespectful of him and his desires not to go to church?

The respect card works in both directions, just so you know.

Not even remotely the same.

We have all of us had to go through something similar

A parent who believes wants the family together at a cermony at certain times of the year, be it a wedding , a funeral a christening or even an Xmas mass when the whole family is home for the holidays.
They put pressure through guilt for a member of the family to atttend.

I would equate this to pressure from your partner to see a band or movie you do not care for but they want to see and want to see it with you.

It might be a pain in the ass but hardly disrespectful for a family member/partner to want to include you in something special to them.

On the other hand whispering a Satanic prayer ( I am asuuming you are not a satanist and do not believe in him either) as some kind of juvenile protest is very disrepectful .

Do what we all do ,replay Simpson epsiodes in your head till its over and give your mammy a big hug before you leave at the end of the day.

Pawwed Rig

Bandana boy wrote: »

Do what we all do ,replay Simpson epsiodes in your head till its over and give your mammy a big hug before you leave at the end of the day.

And tick the Catholic box on the census form

magicbastarder

Bandana boy wrote: »

I would equate this to pressure from your partner to see a band or movie you do not care for but they want to see and want to see it with you.

but to complete the analogy, a band which has a proven history of covering up child abuse.

Bandana boy

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

And tick the Catholic box on the census form

Not what I am saying at all.

Bandana boy

magicbastarder wrote: »

but to complete the analogy, a band which has a proven history of covering up child abuse.

If you feel that stongly refuse to attend ,but if you are going along to keep the peace then keep the peace , try not to upset all involved.

Pawwed Rig

Bandana boy wrote: »

Not what I am saying at all.

You're telling people to suck it up and go through ceremonies that they have no interest in. Equating it to a crap film your girlfriend wants to see is ludicrous as Jennifer Aniston was not force fed to me every morning at school for 13 years. Nor is she affecting the lack of choice of schools I have for my child or are there constant reminders of her everywhere around the place.

ziedth

magicbastarder wrote: »

but to complete the analogy, a band which has a proven history of covering up child abuse.

So a lost prophets concert?

Bandana boy

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

You're telling people to suck it up and go through ceremonies that they have no interest in. Equating it to a crap film your girlfriend wants to see is ludicrous as Jennifer Aniston was not force fed to me every morning at school for 13 years. Nor is she affecting the lack of choice of schools I have for my child or are there constant reminders of her everywhere around the place.

No
I am saying if you are attending a function in a church then be respectful of the people you are attending with.
If anybody wants to refuse to go to said cermony ,i am 100% behind them.
But in this case op is going along to keep the peace. Which all of us have done on more than one occasion I am sure.

Feel free to (and i encourage you) explain after/before why you do not believe or support any church and what damage you think the power they hold/wield does to ours and many other communitys around the world every day. But I would stop the campaign during little Jonnys christening cermony.And i would not disturb the cermony with some childish prank ,designed only to offend.

as_mo_bhosca

Where did the funny go?

robindch

Posts moved from funny thread to serious thread.

eviltwin

If you don't want to go to mass then don't go. Even if it's a wedding or a funeral. But if you do decide to go then you should at least be respectful enough of the people around you not to slag their beliefs. Otherwise just stay home.

lazygal

Bandana boy wrote: »

No
I am saying if you are attending a function in a church then be respectful of the people you are attending with.

Its a funny word, respect. Most of the 'Catholics' I know don't respect the church teachings. They have sex before they get married, they use contraception, they don't believe the church teaching on homosexuality and they don't see anything wrong with fertility treatment. I've often heard people who self identify as atheist express horror about their child not being baptized and so unable to attend dad's fee paying secondary school.

So when I attend a church wedding of two people who don't actually respect the church in which they marry, as they have said they don't in some cases (two atheist friends who claimed the auld 'parents would be very disappointed' line), its difficult to know what and who, exactly, I should be respecting. Social convention means I'll go along with a good sense of not acting the maggot and stand and sit at the appropriate times, but in my head I'm thinking how nonsensical it all is.

When I'm asked to attend a christening of a child who's parents openly say they are only doing it because of the family christening gown and a sense of tradition, I find it hard to respect those people. They don't really believe the catholic teachings, they only want a day out to welcome the child into the family and to keep family happy. Fair enough, I do things myself for a quiet life, but I don't expect everyone to respect those choices by attending ceremonies in a church I don't follow the beliefs of.

Bandana boy

lazygal wrote: »

Its a funny word, respect. Most of the 'Catholics' I know don't respect the church teachings. They have sex before they get married, they use contraception, they don't believe the church teaching on homosexuality and they don't see anything wrong with fertility treatment. I've often heard people who self identify as atheist express horror about their child not being baptized and so unable to attend dad's fee paying secondary school.

So when I attend a church wedding of two people who don't actually respect the church in which they marry, as they have said they don't in some cases (two atheist friends who claimed the auld 'parents would be very disappointed' line), its difficult to know what and who, exactly, I should be respect. Social convention means I'll go along with a good sense of not acting the maggot and stand and sit at the appropriate times, but in my head I'm thinking how nonsensical it all is. .

Surely people taking the bits of Catholism that work for them and ignoring the rest is a good idea.In absence of being able to abolish the whole thing altogether is at least a step in the right direction.


I could be getting more tolerant in my old age but I see the erosion around the edges of the churchs teachings a victory ,and not a loss that they still believe in a central theme or sense of community

lazygal wrote: »

When I'm asked to attend a christening of a child who's parents openly say they are only doing it because of the family christening gown and a sense of tradition, I find it hard to respect those people. They don't really believe the catholic teachings, they only want a day out to welcome the child into the family and to keep family happy. Fair enough, .

Is there anything wrong with this ?

lazygal wrote: »

I do things myself for a quiet life, but I don't expect everyone to respect those choices by attending ceremonies in a church I don't follow the beliefs of .

No issue (and quite a bit of respect) with you not attending ,but as you said if your going to attend ,do not act the maggot

jank

Respect and politeness costs nothing. Either go or don't go. If you do go, then don't make a big song and dance about it to show how 'different' you are cause tbh nobody really gives a rats ass. People who go on the internet boasting about what they did in mass or some other church as some public show of defiance are pathetic tbh. Show some moral backbone and don't go in the first place. You say you are 27 FFS!

If you are at wedding, baptism or a funeral of course one has to show respect to the customs that those involved adhere to. Many of the people who go to these events are not regular mass goers but they show respect for the dead, the child or the couple.

robindch

Bandana boy wrote: »

Surely people taking the bits of Catholism that work for them and ignoring the rest is a good idea.

Not when the church takes presence in the church as support for the church.

A little bit of honesty and decency on the part of the church would go a long way towards resolving issues like this, though as ever, the church seems reluctant to display much sign of either.

lazygal

If people didn't have a charade of a christening in a church they don't believe in, there might be faster change in the school system. As I said in another thread, as a parent of young children who may end up having to be marked out because they don't do indoctrination, nothing frustrates me more than parents who don't believe in the catholic church duly getting their children 'done' and pretending that they didn't really want to do it, rather than actually having the gumption to not do something they don't believe. As long as people's religious choices don't affect me and my children negatively, and are within secular law, I don't give a monkeys. But when the school system operates on the basis of baptism certs required for state services like education, I will continue to believe it is very wrong that people feel forced to baptize to avail of them.

magicbastarder

lazygal wrote: »

If people didn't have a charade of a christening in a church they don't believe in, there might be faster change in the school system.

sure, but that's off-topic. this is just about the fact that if you do go to a mass, for whatever reason, don't make a tit of yourself in any way which might upset the other attendees.

that said, i would clarify that in that i have no objection to a proper protest made in the correct context.

lazygal

magicbastarder wrote: »

sure, but that's off-topic. this is just about the fact that if you do go to a mass, for whatever reason, don't make a tit of yourself in any way which might upset the other attendees.

that said, i would clarify that in that i have no objection to a proper protest made in the correct context.

No, the thread title is about respect for the religious + religion. That covers a lot more than mass.

Turtwig

JaseHeath wrote: »

Lucifer Morning Star put this in After Hours. Next time I'm forced to go to mass, I'm definitely mumbling this as everyone else says the "Our Father".

Frankly saying that would be being a dick. Don't go into the church. Nobody has a gun to your head and you're going to have to be able to stand by your own convictions. If you don't want to go; then don't. Simples. No need for such immature oafish theatrics.

shruikan2553

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I only go to funerals, and of people I actually miss

I go, I stand up when others do, I sit down when others do, but I kneel before no-one. I say nothing, I do not take communion, and I offend nobody.


wait a minute, 'forced to go to mass' really?? or rather 'I'm coerced by my mammy and want some internet relief'

Im the same as this. I couldnt give a **** what any religion does until it starts to tell other people what they must do and try to get laws which follow their rules. At that point I dont care if anything I say offends them, they don't care about my opinions so why should I do the same.

swampgas

robindch wrote: »

Not when the church takes presence in the church as support for the church.

A little bit of honesty and decency on the part of the church would go a long way towards resolving issues like this, though as ever, the church seems reluctant to display much sign of either.

It's also the case that a lot of the cultural catholics who don't follow the churches teachings won't stand up and make it clear that they disagree with the church that they pretend to follow. So when ol' Ratzinger was banging on endlessly about gays this and gays that, he was getting a lot of implicit approval from all the spineless anything-for-a-quiet-life sorts who can't see that their attendance at mass is actually making a statement.

Brian Shanahan

Bandana boy wrote: »

Not even remotely the same.

You are correct, making people go to mass is a lot worse than a person repeating a silly little ditty to themselves, or even out loud.

When a person is being made do something they are being forced to do it against their will, and unless that thing being forced upon them is for their good or that of society (e.g. getting the MMR vaccine, or being forced not to murder), forcing someone to do something against their will is the worst possible crime you can commit, short of murder, on that person.

Repeating the ditty in mass pales in comparison when you want to talk about gravity of the offence.

Bandana boy

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You are correct, making people go to mass is a lot worse than a person repeating a silly little ditty to themselves, or even out loud.

When a person is being made do something they are being forced to do it against their will, and unless that thing being forced upon them is for their good or that of society (e.g. getting the MMR vaccine, or being forced not to murder), forcing someone to do something against their will is the worst possible crime you can commit, short of murder, on that person.

Repeating the ditty in mass pales in comparison when you want to talk about gravity of the offence.

That is so wrong on so many levels I am not sure where to begin ,but i will start with the OPs mammy guilting him to attending church is not forcing.

I personally think orgainsed religion is offensive ,but by your definition if I believe that a religion or in my cases lack off is for the good of society its ok to force somebody to do it/not do it ! but if i dont believe this but enforce this law then it is worse than any other crime except Murder.

So my parents who forced me to get confirmation despite believing it was all hocum are equivalent to rapists ! and a step below murderers !

All crimes are crimes and they all have different levels of punishment based on the impact to our society and the victim, in the main they have it right in the order of severity the punish these. Guilting somebody into attending a ceremony is not a crime ,it is an inconvenience

JaseBelleVie

Turtwig wrote: »

Frankly saying that would be being a dick. Don't go into the church. Nobody has a gun to your head and you're going to have to be able to stand by your own convictions. If you don't want to go; then don't. Simples. No need for such immature oafish theatrics.

I was only joking...

JaseBelleVie

Bandana boy wrote: »

Why would you be so disrespectful to something your family obviously cares about ?
What would you gain from it ,and would it hurt your family if they heard you muttering a satanic prayer in their church

Bad idea all round

Again, as above, I was only joking...

Jeez, the sarcasm-o-meters definitely aren't working in here.

Turtwig

Jeez, yo, wait till next week. My meters, all of them, aren't, ahem, functioning.

JaseBelleVie

Turtwig wrote: »

Jeez, yo, wait till next week. My meters, all of them, aren't, ahem, functioning.

Look, you're talking to a guy who f*cked his body clock up so badly over the holidays that I fell into bed at 5am today. Back up at 7am. Spent all day shivering in work from a combination of caffeine overdose and lack of sleep. I'm now sitting here on my laptop full of the joys of spring.

My body hates me. But at least it sounds like I'm not alone!

JaseBelleVie

I'm just looking through this here now. What the f*ck have I started?! :eek:

While I would define myself as an atheist, I would never be openly offensive to the RCC or my parents' religion.

However, that won't stop me posting crap on the internet. :P

Shrap

jank wrote: »

Respect and politeness costs nothing.

Sometimes it costs your self respect.

If you are at wedding, baptism or a funeral of course one has to show respect to the customs that those involved adhere to. Many of the people who go to these events are not regular mass goers but they show respect for the dead, the child or the couple.

Example: I used to go to mass every year on the occasion of my son's school mates' confirmation as a mark of respect to them. It's a very close knit community and even though I am an affirmed atheist, I felt it was important to acknowledge that this was a big day for my children's friends. The last one I attended, the children were each up on the pulpit saying a little "Thank you Lord for....blah de blah", but one child came out with something along the lines of "Thank you Lord for showing our teachers the importance of keeping our faith strong in our school" and to this day I am angry at myself for not standing up there and then and walking out.

The respect I had to show at that point (to the children making their confirmation and to my own children, that I didn't make a show of them) was severely tested, due to the lack of respect that those words were showing to me and my children. I felt forced into showing respect for words that directly and negatively effected me and mine, and so I've never been back. Not even for funerals. I will go to the house and pay my respects, and to a removal, but never again to a church.

magicbastarder

i wouldn't say simply leaving mass is a form of disrespect.

Shrap

magicbastarder wrote: »

i wouldn't say simply leaving mass is a form of disrespect.

It is if you have children with you and it causes a commotion in the middle of a confirmation ceremony that you are attending only out of respect to the children who are making it. I felt compelled to sit there fuming rather than make a show of anyone else. Had it just been me, I'd have been running out of there like a hot snot.

eviltwin

I understand irritation. I get it. I know people who haven't been to church in years and who bad mouth it on a regular basis who have still done the church wedding, baptism, FHC etc. That doesn't just irritate non religious people like me, it also irritates practising Catholics.

But its their choice.

I was recently at a baptism for a child whose parents haven't been to church in over 20 years. I was asked to go and I wanted to go to share an important milestone in their life. I was irritated and we talked about it but we did that long before the day and in the end although I don't agree with them its their decision. The time to voice that is not on the day, not at the event. If you have that much of an issue with it discuss it beforehand, make your points and listen to theirs, decided then if you are prepared to go or if you would feel its better to stay home.

But if you do go the church is not the time or the place to make a stand. Its rude.

Shrap

eviltwin wrote: »

But if you do go the church is not the time or the place to make a stand. Its rude.

Even so, I know I wasn't prepared to hear words that directly disrespected me and mine. I would have left if I didn't care about the people involved, but clearly I never go to a church unless I'm intending to respect people I care about! It was a lesson to know that if I go to church again, I must be prepared to sit there through whatever is said. So I won't go.

Penn

eviltwin wrote: »

I understand irritation. I get it. I know people who haven't been to church in years and who bad mouth it on a regular basis who have still done the church wedding, baptism, FHC etc. That doesn't just irritate non religious people like me, it also irritates practising Catholics.

But its their choice.

I was recently at a baptism for a child whose parents haven't been to church in over 20 years. I was asked to go and I wanted to go to share an important milestone in their life. I was irritated and we talked about it but we did that long before the day and in the end although I don't agree with them its their decision. The time to voice that is not on the day, not at the event. If you have that much of an issue with it discuss it beforehand, make your points and listen to theirs, decided then if you are prepared to go or if you would feel its better to stay home.

But if you do go the church is not the time or the place to make a stand. Its rude.

Agreed. Love & respect for your family and friends should always come before hatred or disrespect for a religious institution.

jank

Shrap wrote: »

Sometimes it costs your self respect.

As I said, either go or don't go. If you do go, show some respect and politeness.

Shrap

jank wrote: »

As I said, either go or don't go. If you do go, show some respect and politeness.

As I said, I did. Despite the lack of respect the church showed to me. Damage taken to my self-respect though, as I'm sure you can empathise with.

jank

I suppose it depends how militant people think they are.

Shrap

I suppose it depends how militant people think they are.

That makes zero sense.

daUbiq

Why be respectful to people who believe in fairytales? they should be committed..

iguana

I'm fine with going to church funerals, especially if any of the most bereaved are believers and are drawing comfort from the ritual. I don't particularly like going to church weddings of non believers but at the end of the day, they are two adults who have made their choice and I can accept that and go along with it even if I don't truely respect it.

But child indoctrination ceremonies, particularly baptisms, make me feel very, very uncomfortable for numerous reasons and I avoid them. For now that's very easy as I can just claim 'fractious toddler' and skip the ceremony. In a couple of years time I guess I'll have to come up with something else.

jank

Shrap wrote: »

That makes zero sense.

Let me rephrase. If someone becomes so entrenched in their views they could be classified as militant in that respect. If someone tells themselves that they will never ever enter a church again not matter what, then that would be quite an entrenched view. People like that will always find a reason to tell themselves that they are acting rationally. Hell, even Dawkins go the church sometimes.

robindch

jank wrote: »

Let me rephrase. If someone becomes so entrenched in their views they could be classified as militant in that respect. If someone tells themselves that they will never ever enter a church again not matter what, then that would be quite an entrenched view.

You're confusing the words "entrenched" with "militant" and I'm reminded of that "Yes (Prime) Minster" gag about irregular verbs/adjective:

First person: I'm passionate
Second person: You're entrenched
Third person: He's militant

jank

That somewhat proves my point.