Traffickers 'made $3m' on Italy ship

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30669136

Police in Italy believe traffickers made some $3m (£1.9m; €2.5m) from 359 illegal migrants found abandoned on a cargo ship in the Mediterranean.

OK 3,000,000/359=8356.545 if the passengers have managed to save up that much money, why are they still taking such a risk when you consider that $8000 is a lot of money where they come from and can provide for a comfortable living.

Are they just greedy or what?

The Peanut

I would have considered traffickers to be far more morally sound than that.

Atlantic Dawn

I have doubts on the €8k figure too, if they had that kind of cash would they not just get a tourist visa, fly in and stay in Italy with the cash being used as proof they have money for their holiday.

RobYourBuilder

EU residency and eventually citizenship is the jackpot.

●Free movement throughout the 28 member states.
●Easier visa processes for non EU western countries(America, Canada, Australia etc.)
●Free or heavily subsidised education.
●Child benefit.
●Much more job opportunities and the chance to earn a much higher wage.
●Social housing.
●Free medical care.
●A much higher standard of living for you and your family.
●If you get status, then you can bring over your family through EU family reunification directives.
●Welfare.

If they get in, it's the best risk they will ever take and best eight large they will ever spend.

Tail Docker

Everyone knows Police fiscal estimates are hugely optimistic. They base them on their own past experiences of guaranteed return for their efforts. That's the Public Sector for you.

hfallada

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I have doubts on the €8k figure too, if they had that kind of cash would they not just get a tourist visa, fly in and stay in Italy with the cash being used as proof they have money for their holiday.

But they wont be allowed in Italy with a tourist visa. They would have to apply for it, unlike Europeans who can get visas no problem. No embassy official is going to give most of these people a holiday visa, as the risk of them staying is too high.

I have meet some Eastern Europeans in Ireland who have gotten passports from the Russian Mafia to enter Ireland. As they know they wont get a tourist visa to Ireland. They were given the passports and in return they would have to repay €6k to the Russian mafia at home.

The Peanut

The Peanut wrote: »

I would have considered traffickers to be far more morally sound than that.

I'm sure that you omitted the /sarc from that.


The sad fact is that the traffickers are only there because people are willing to risk everything for "a better life".

The real dilemma is for Europe to decide what to do with the migrants when they arrive.

Let them in, only to be followed by boatloads more.
or....?

RobYourBuilder

170,000 entered Italy by boat in the last 14 months. Italy has a youth unemployment rate of 43%. Obviously, this cannot continue. Time to take a leaf out of the Australians book and stop the boats.

keith16

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

EU residency and eventually citizenship is the jackpot.

●Free movement throughout the 28 member states.
●Easier visa processes for non EU western countries(America, Canada, Australia etc.)
●Free or heavily subsidised education.
●Child benefit.
●Much more job opportunities and the chance to earn a much higher wage.
●Social housing.
●Free medical care.
●A much higher standard of living for you and your family.
●If you get status, then you can bring over your family through EU family reunification directives.
●Welfare.

If they get in, it's the best risk they will ever take and best eight large they will ever spend.

You forgot free buggies at every bus stop.

jaymcg91

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

170,000 entered Italy by boat in the last 14 months. Italy has a youth unemployment rate of 43%. Obviously, this cannot continue. Time to take a leaf out of the Australians book and stop the boats.

I agree, they seem to be arriving in Italy and Greece literally by the boatload. I understand the humanitarian arguments but at the same time, those two countries and the EU as a whole is starting to buckle under the weight of mass migration.

I'm just curious to know when and if someone will do something about this rapidly escalating situation, or if we'll continue this trend of being accused of being racist when someone makes a valid argument about already scarce resources etc (I don't have a racist bone in my body, if you're here legally i couldn't give a **** what color you are or where you're from, you deserve a chance like everybody else).

RobYourBuilder

keith16 wrote: »

You forgot free buggies at every bus stop.

Nice attempt at trying to be funny to gain a few internet points. Nothing in what I said was untrue. Nothing. The things I mentioned are available.

As for buggies;

Deputy Joan Burton:  ] Persons who consider they have an entitlement to a special needs payment should contact the local social welfare officers administering the scheme.

I have set out a table that shows the total amount spent in the past two years on adult and child clothing, religious ceremonies, prams, buggies and cots. The table may be helpful to the Deputy. It also shows the average payments.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2013030500012

10,942 got money towards buggies in 2011 and 9,413 did so in 2012. You can add to that to the list if you want, but I'd file it under welfare. If you think anything I've posted on that list is factually incorrect, point it out.

jaymcg91

jaymcg91 wrote: »

I'm just curious to know when and if someone will do something about this rapidly escalating situation, or if we'll continue this trend of being accused of being racist when someone makes a valid argument about already scarce resources etc (I don't have a racist bone in my body, if you're here legally i couldn't give a **** what colour you are or where you're from, you deserve a chance like everybody else).

That's one of the dilemmas that we'll all have to face, soon we'll have more and more illegal migrants arriving and when do you say STOP!.

It's not being racist or anything like it, it's more a case of preserving your own lifestyle that would be impoverished if you have to share with too many others.

Paco Rodriguez

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's one of the dilemmas that we'll all have to face, soon we'll have more and more illegal migrants arriving and when do you say STOP!.

It's not being racist or anything like it, it's more a case of preserving your own lifestyle that would be impoverished if you have to share with too many others.

But they are just undocumented so it's ok

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

That's one of the dilemmas that we'll all have to face, soon we'll have more and more illegal migrants arriving and when do you say STOP!.

It's not being racist or anything like it, it's more a case of preserving your own lifestyle that would be impoverished if you have to share with too many others.

this problem is only going to get worse

I read this quote by Gore Vidal the other day and I think we will see Europe reach the same conclusion in a few years

A characteristic of our present chaos is the dramatic migration of tribes. They are on the move from east to west, from south to north. Liberal tradition requires that borders must always be open to those in search of safety, or even the pursuit of happiness. But now, with so many millions of people on the move, even the great-hearted are becoming edgy. Norway is large enough and empty enough to take in 40 to 50 million homeless Bengalis. If the Norwegians say that, all in all, they would rather not take them in, is this to be considered racism? I think not. It is simply self-preservation, the first law of species

the social justice warriors will never admit it, but the number of people from the middle east and Africa who want to live in Europe is just to many

efb

Some people here probably see Nigel Farage as a hero

efb

Deleted User wrote: »

That's one of the dilemmas that we'll all have to face, soon we'll have more and more illegal migrants arriving and when do you say STOP!.

It's not being racist or anything like it, it's more a case of preserving your own lifestyle that would be impoverished if you have to share with too many others.

Impoverished or slightly diminished???

Where would we be as a nation without the billions the EU gave us in aid??? Imagine if Germany had said no?
Waiting for bailed out German banks argument

Rhys Essien

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

170,000 entered Italy by boat in the last 14 months. Italy has a youth unemployment rate of 43%. Obviously, this cannot continue. Time to take a leaf out of the Australians book and stop the boats.

Thats a bit ironic from Australia considering there would be no Australia without boat loads of immigrants.

Dont forget the millions of Irish who left on boats over the last few hundred years for Canada,US,Britain and Aus.Who the fcuk are we to tell any population in desperation that they shouldnt be left in nowhere.

nokia69

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Thats a bit ironic from Australia considering there would be no Australia without boat loads of immigrants.

Dont forget the millions of boatloads of Irish over the last few hundred years left for Canada,US,Britain and Aus.Who the fcuk are we to tell any population in desperation that they shouldnt be left in nowhere.

who are we ?

we are the people who have lived in this part of the world for thousands of years, it belongs to us, and if we decide for any reason that we want to close the door then thats our right

FloatingVoter

PM me €5000 and I will sail you to the Aran Island of your choice. Swimming gear is optional but advisable.

Rhys Essien

nokia69 wrote: »

who are we ?

we are the people who have lived in this part of the world for thousands of years, it belongs to us, and if we decide for any reason that we want to close the door then thats our right

My point is that if we the Irish had nowhere to go throughout the centuries then we were fcuked.Its estimated that during the year of 1847 alone (black 47 as it is known) there were 250,000 people left Ireland.

People have every right to head for a better safer life.

nokia69

Rhys Essien wrote: »

People have every right to head for a better safer life.

they do

and we have every right to say go somewhere else

COYVB

nokia69 wrote: »

we are the people who have lived in this part of the world for thousands of years, it belongs to us

No, we're people who happened to be born in a certain place at a certain time. It's not ours, it's a bit of rock on a big ball floating in space. Borders should be closed to none but criminals

RobYourBuilder

Rhys Essien wrote:

Thats a bit ironic from Australia considering there would be no Australia without boat loads of immigrants.

Do you think that Australia should allow in anyone and everyond who reaches their shores?

Rhys Essien wrote: »

My point is that if we the Irish had nowhere to go throughout the centuries then we were fcuked.Its estimated that during the year of 1847 alone (black 47 as it is known) there were 250,000 people left Ireland.

Do you think that we should take in anyone and everyone because of what happened in the past? Basing modern day immigration policy on what happened 170 years ago isn't very practical.

Rhys Essien wrote:

People have every right to head for a better safer life.

And the natives have every right to protect their borders. Do you think Western and Northern European countries have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants from Africa and the Middle East?

Rhys Essien

Off the top of my head,I would like to see countries like Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,UAE and Qatar who would be fairly under populated and dripping in gold,take in Syrians,Afghans and maybe Palestinian refugees.This would take away the need for them to come to Europe but I suppose with the Islam branch differences (Shia,Sunni etc.) it might not work out.

RobYourBuilder

And Europeans and Islam get on just famously.

nokia69

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Off the top of my head,I would like to see countries like Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,UAE and Qatar who would be fairly under populated and dripping in gold,take in Syrians,Afghans and maybe Palestinian refugees.This would take away the need for them to come to Europe but I suppose with the Islam sect differences (Shia,Sunni etc.) it might not work out.

well the sunnis could go to saudi arabia

and the shia/alawites could go to iran

let the ummah fix the problem

Guy:Incognito

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Thats a bit ironic from Australia considering there would be no Australia without boat loads of immigrants.

.

Yeah, sure they even had to send over a few boats full of little black lads so the settlers had someone to kill and evict from the land.

It's such a joyous thing the Europeans did, bringing life to the uninhabited Mars like continent at the bottom of the world.

Rhys Essien

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yeah, sure they even had to send over a few boats full of little black lads so the settlers had someone to kill and evict from the land.

It's such a joyous thing the Europeans did, bringing life to the uninhabited Mars like continent at the bottom of the world.

Surely Aus has space for another 100 million.Leave them off with a fishing rod.Plenty kangaroo meat aswell.wheres the problem?.

biko

I don't doubt lefties and righties both want people to be happy.
But since EU cannot handle all the disadvantaged peoples of the world and it seems to be a bad idea to only take the strong or healthy that can make it here, leaving behind no-one to rebuild or fix whatever is wrong in the first place.
Shouldn't the EU focus be on fixing what's wrong in the countries they flee from, and the camps in Jordan/Lebanon etc?

General focus seems to be on refugees fleeing here while no focus is on the fact that foreign aid is reduced to be able to pay for immigration.
For instance asylum offices in Sweden, like West Gotaland, gets more money (from Swedish Aid) than the entire country of Moçambique!
Just imagine what could be done in the 3rd world with all of that money (where everything is a fraction of the price it is in Sweden).

I think the left are more concerned with the feel-good factor of a small immigration rather than the cold economics of it all (which in essence helps more people in their countries).

efb

nokia69 wrote: »

they do

and we have every right to say go somewhere else

Why?

nokia69

efb wrote: »

Why?

because thats how the real world works

efb

nokia69 wrote: »

because thats how the real world works

That's cleared that up

RobYourBuilder

biko wrote: »

General focus seems to be on refugees fleeing here while no focus is on the fact that foreign aid is reduced to be able to pay for immigration.
For instance asylum offices in Sweden, like West Gotaland, gets more money (from Swedish Aid) than the entire country of Moçambique!
Just imagine what could be done in the 3rd world with all of that money (where everything is a fraction of the price it is in Sweden).

Funny you should mention Sweden. There's a group of asylum seekers currently threatening to go on hunger strike there.

A group of 30 asylum seekers spent the night in a cold bus outside a reception centre in the woods south Östersund in central Sweden. They do not want to move into the centre, but demand to be returned to Malmö.

On Wednesday, Swedish Radio Jämtland spoke to some of the 40 or so asylum seekers, who had arrived on the bus earlier in the day. They said they had not been told where they were going. As they entered the bus in Malmö, in southern Sweden, they expected to be taken to Stockholm, or "max 40 minutes outside" the capital, one of the asylum seekers told the reporter. Instead they spent 15 hours on the bus, arriving to the dark and the cold in village 20 kilometres south of Östersund, where a former military barracks have been turned into a refugee reception centre.

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6058405

Several dozen people seeking asylum in Sweden refused to leave their bus when they found out that they would be living in a tiny town. They demanded to be brought back to a big city, and police refused to evict them from the vehicle.

The incident happened in Grytan, a småort in central Sweden. The term refers to a small rural community of 50 to 199 residents where houses are built close enough to each other. Grytan, located not far from the city of Östersund, has a housing center for those waiting for their application for asylum to be considered by the authorities.

The center was the destination of some 40 people, who arrived in the village on Wednesday, but when they saw it they were not happy at all, reports The Local.

"I am 75 years old and come from the Middle East. Then I get sent to a place that looks like this," a man from Syria told to the local Östersunds-Posten daily, pointing to the icy road. "It is dangerous for me to be here."

The group refused to leave the bus and demanded that they were returned to Malmö, Sweden’s third city located in the south, or any other big city. The police were called on the scene, but they refused to evict the protesters.

“We can’t force them off the bus. The case would have to go through the Swedish Enforcement Authority, which can issue an eviction order and only then can the police get involved,” officer Bengt Stadin said, Radio Sweden reported.

Fredrik Bengtsson, a Swedish Migration Board spokesman, said that it was up to Swedish officials to choose where they would offer accommodation to asylum seekers.

“We have seen cases where asylum seekers have certain ideas of what awaits them in Sweden and when that doesn’t match reality, then problems arise. They don’t feel what they see here meets their expectations. We’ve had a large amount of people come to Sweden this year and so we can’t place them where they want,” Bengtsson said.

Asylum seekers are not prisoners and can live wherever they want after they are cleared to enter Sweden, but they would have to take care of their own accommodation themselves, he added.

“We are in dialogue with these individuals, but we are very clear that this is the accommodation they’ve been offered and that if they don’t want it they have to arrange their own accommodation while their asylum applications are being processed,” Sophia Öhvall Lindberg of the Migration Board said.

But the protesters say they feel cheated by the board as they were never told where they wanted to place them.

"No one told us where we were going. Then we were told that we would be taken 40 minutes from Stockholm and in the end we had gone 15 hours," one of the man told Sveriges Radio Jämtland.

The board said the Grytan housing center is now home for about 150 people. About a dozen of the protesters agreed to move in, while three others found their own housing.

But about 40 people continued protesting and started taking turns to guard the bus, so that it didn’t simply leave them in the town.

“We want a solution to this situation,” Öhvall Lindberg said.

The standoff continued for two days. On Friday, the protesters finally agreed to vacate the bus after Swedish officials pledged to move them within three months.

In 2014 Sweden took in its highest number of asylum seekers since 1992, when people fleeing the Balkans wars reached the Scandinavian country. A total of 81,300 people found refuge in the country last year, almost twice as many as 54,300 in 2013. The refugees come mostly from Syria, which accounted for 30,600 asylum seekers in 2014.

http://rt.com/news/219387-sweden-asylum-seekers-protest/

"We have experienced sometimes that asylum-seekers have a idea of what to expect in Sweden. When that image does not correspond to reality, it becomes a problem."

http://www.thelocal.se/20150101/refugees-protest-rural-sweden-re-location

Reporter R, Asylum seeker A

R: "And what would be a better place?"

A: "Malmö or Stockholm or any city but not with cold weather, and here exist bear and wolf and more animals. We can't stay here."

R: "But I live here?"

A: "Yeah, but I say to you, we are Arab people. We can't stay here in that weather."

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=78&artikel=6058506

Do these people think that Stockholm or Malmo, both which have huge housing shortages, even for the natives, are warm or something? It seems that beggars can be choosers. It should be noted that asylum seekers in Sweden can live anywhere they want if they can arrange their own housing. Like living with relatives or friends. But these guys just want Sweden to give them free housing in the city of their choice.

nokia69

A: "Yeah, but I say to you, we are Arab people. We can't stay here in that weather."

well go back to the middle east then, problem solved

crockholm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Funny you should mention Sweden. There's a group of asylum seekers currently threatening to go on hunger strike there.





https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6058405



http://rt.com/news/219387-sweden-asylum-seekers-protest/




http://www.thelocal.se/20150101/refugees-protest-rural-sweden-re-location

Reporter R, Asylum seeker A

R: "And what would be a better place?"

A: "Malmö or Stockholm or any city but not with cold weather, and here exist bear and wolf and more animals. We can't stay here."

R: "But I live here?"

A: "Yeah, but I say to you, we are Arab people. We can't stay here in that weather."

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=78&artikel=6058506

Do these people think that Stockholm or Malmo, both which have huge housing shortages, even for the natives, are warm or something? It seems that beggars can be choosers. It should be noted that asylum seekers in Sweden can live anywhere they want if they can arrange their own housing. Like living with relatives or friends. But these guys just want Sweden to give them free housing in the city of their choice.

Which is a bit funny,because the time of the Husby riots 2 years ago,one of the gripes was that their location within sthlm was a major contributing factor to the riots, with one New Swede declaring that " if we were housed in the city centre,instead of out here,this (the riots) wouldn't be happening".

AndonHandon

The term 'asylum seeker' should not be used to judge the person other than to say that they have fled their country as they were in danger. An asylum-seeker could be a baker who has had his bakery destroyed, a lawyer who lived in a city which has been flattened, an artist, a business person etc. until their refugee status is confirmed they should be taken into a country and given the bare essentials (food, shelter and medicine). Remember, asylum seekers cannot work in the EU.

RobYourBuilder

An asylum-seeker could be a baker who has had his bakery destroyed, a lawyer who lived in a city which has been flattened, an artist, a business person etc

Or, as in the vast majority of cases; an economic migrant.

Remember, asylum seekers cannot work in the EU.

Depends on the country. For example, Sweden allows asylum seekers work if they play ball during the process(I.e provide them with the documentation they used to get there, clarify their identity, their application is well founded,etc). Very few do.

http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Protection-and-asylum-in-Sweden/Adults-seeking-asylum/Work.html

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

nokia69 wrote: »

they do

and we have every right to say go somewhere else

Everybody should have the right to life.

RobYourBuilder

Dallas Unsightly Meatball wrote: »

Everybody should have the right to life.

Sure. But should everyone have a right to life in Europe?

Annasopra

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Sure. But should everyone have a right to life in Europe?

So just leave the boats at sea for them all to die?

RobYourBuilder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

So just leave the boats at sea for them all to die?

Stop them at source like we were able to do before the Colonel got offed, intercept them before they enter EU waters, or if they do get here, make sure that they are ok, give them medical treatment if needed, food, process them and send those who have no case home immediately. That's just a few suggestions of the top of my head.

efb

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Sure. But should everyone have a right to life in Europe?

Do we?

RobYourBuilder

efb wrote: »

Do we?

I'm European, so yeah. Where the f*ck else would I live?

efb

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I'm European, so yeah. Where the f*ck else would I live?

By virtue of birth? Or how far back would you go???

keithclancy

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

EU residency and eventually citizenship is the jackpot.

●Free movement throughout the 28 member states.
●Easier visa processes for non EU western countries(America, Canada, Australia etc.)
●Free or heavily subsidised education.
●Child benefit.
●Much more job opportunities and the chance to earn a much higher wage.
●Social housing.
●Free medical care.
●A much higher standard of living for you and your family.
●If you get status, then you can bring over your family through EU family reunification directives.
●Welfare.

If they get in, it's the best risk they will ever take and best eight large they will ever spend.

You don't have access to many of those things until you become habitually resident. Unless you move from another EU country. Then you claim from that system

Also if you work in Germany or the Netherlands you are obliged by law to pay for health insruance.

RobYourBuilder

keithclancy wrote: »

You don't have access to many of thse things until you become habitually resident. Unless you move from another EU country. Then you claim from that system

No sh*t. Hence why I said EU residence and eventual citizenship.

Also if you work in Germany or the Netherlands you are obliged by law to pay for health insruance.

Asylum seekers who get leave to remain or refugee status don't.

Annasopra

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I'm European, so yeah. Where the f*ck else would I live?

Plenty of Europeans live elsewhere.

Highflyer13

Europe is still economically fragile and cannot realistically support boats of migrants arriving on its shores without it having an impact on European citizens lives. Growth is not strong enough at the minute. At the same time I wouldn't like to leave these migrants at the hands of ISIS or other groups they're fleeing from. Its a tough moral dilemma. If muslims are coming in they must integrate better.

Suryavarman

If you were to ask most people whether or not they were racist they would tell you "of course not". If you were to ask most people whether or not we should arbitrarily restrict people's rights to travel and work based on their race or nationality they would reply "of course we should".

To me those two statements would seem to contradict each other. So maybe I've made a mistake somewhere. I'll leave the rest of you make up your own minds.

biko

Maybe if you didn't toss in "race" the debate wouldn't get so infected.

Instead of trying to label immigrations critics as racists maybe we could look at it from another point of view.
Righties are generally of the view that there must be a elite that generates enough money to pay for the poorest in society by taxes. This translates to there must be rich countries to aid poor countries.
Lefties are more of the opinion that everyone should share everything.
Both opinions has their merits and pitfalls.

How about this:
Should Irish people be free to live and work in US/Canada? Is it racism if that is not allowed?

darkpagandeath

How does claiming Asylum in the 7th country you have travelled through work ? You know you land in southern EU and turn up in the UK or IRL or some other EU state.