Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Read Mod Warning in OP 7/1/15

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

eh no im not, im saying what im seeing, you don't agree then someone like scholes or Neville says it and I just use it to back up my argument

Sure I'll just use lord tsc as back up so.

Same principle no?

Sure no one knew you were an under 21 international starlet until 2 days ago, dosent mean I'll take you more seriously.

secman

I really fail to see how any fan cannot see that we are playing very poor football, it's just not up to our standard, the first half against Burnley really was embarrassing to watch. Just wish he would revert to playing a balanced side, play players in their positions, has to be better. It's not like it's working at the moment. All be it we are getting " results" , it's dire to watch.
We live in hope....

The Moldy Gowl

Pro. F wrote: »

Meh. I think the over reaction against the hyperbole has been more prolific than the hyperbole at this stage.

You're probably right.

sky88

TheDoc wrote: »

End product will develop with age and experience as he starts to understand what to do in certain situations. I'm not comparing him to Ronaldo, but Ronaldo is the prime example of someone who was wildly wasteful at the start, and then barely put a foot wrong towards to end of his Old Trafford stay.

It might be a case of putting up with the errors, but realising the first team experience will make im learn from it and get better. He is clearly too good to operate at the under 21 /reserve level, but he's not complete enough to be a first team solution long term. But he's only 19.

I think overall it might prove the right decision to keep him in the squad, and play him in games, just to get him that exposure.

id agree totally which is why i had wanted him loaned out to a team abroad were he would get 90 mins nearly every week. wouldnt have loaned him to a premier league team as the loans never seem to work for united. i would have loved to keep nani and loan jan to sporting.

adox

bangkok wrote: »

eh no im not, im saying what im seeing, you don't agree then someone like scholes or Neville says it and I just use it to back up my argument

By quoting Scholes and saying "see its not hyperbole" implies that Scholes is saying the same as what others on here have been accused of hyperbole, which is simply untrue.

keane2097

The performance against WHU I didn't think was too bad. Someone posted somewhere around here that while WHU were killing United on set pieces, in general play United were doing fine. I would have agreed with that. In the second half of that game United created a good few good chances, I found that to be a quite enjoyable half of ball to watch.

The first half against Burnley was on a completely different level of ball-aching awfulness to the West Ham game, in which set pieces were a disaster, but otherwise wasn't too bad. Even then, you're talking about a game in which a team is put under severe pressure in the first half by a team who barely manage to lift a leg in the second half.

It's not really as terrible as all that to find it difficult for a half against a team who expend 90 minutes worth of energy in the first 45.

Defensive set pieces in the last while would be the biggest concern IMO.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

The performance against WHU I didn't think was too bad. Someone posted somewhere around here that while WHU were killing United on set pieces, in general play United were doing fine. I would have agreed with that. In the second half of that game United created a good few good chances, I found that to be a quite enjoyable half of ball to watch.

The first half against Burnley was on a completely different level of ball-aching awfulness to the West Ham game, in which set pieces were a disaster, but otherwise wasn't too bad. Even then, you're talking about a game in which a team is put under severe pressure in the first half by a team who barely manage to lift a leg in the second half.

It's not really as terrible as all that to find it difficult for a half against a team who expend 90 minutes worth of energy in the first 45.

Agree with all that except for enjoying the second half against West Ham, I found it annoyingly blunt iirc. The second half against Burnley I was really enjoying for periods.

keane2097 wrote: »

Defensive set pieces in the last while would be the biggest concern IMO.

Very true. Seems like nobody can get their head on the ball. This is something I would criticise Jones and Rojo for not stepping up to. So many set pieces where neither of our CBs rise up to win a header.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

So you've gone from saying that he overplayed and ran into trouble every time he got the ball to now saying there were times he got the ball deep and picked a decent enough pass. The truth is that he kept possession well the majority of times he received the ball deep and he used possession well the majority of times he received in the final third.

Here's his highlights video:

Of the 11 times he got the ball in the final third he only gave it away cheaply 4 times. The other times he either put in a decent cross, laid the ball off to somebody in space or won a throw.

Or were there more times when he received in the final third that aren't included in this video?

Do you regard the head down crosses that go nowhere as giving the ball away cheaply or not? Using possession well is not passing just so you can try and take on 3 or 4 players? There were times Rojo was there and just completely ignored as he went for silly runs.

The Moldy Gowl

Jan suffers from the rooneys.

He tries to be Ronaldo and replicate him, just as Rooney tries to replicate scholes.

dor843088

On the januzaj criticism . The was a period when ronaldo first joined he used to make ridiculous mistakes and could have been accused of just as much if not more than januzaj. 20 step overs just to be dispossessed and made look like a fool , shooting from long distances instead of giving a pass etc etc. Give the lad a break hes 19 has huge potential and believes hes capable. In fact I wish a few more utd players believed in themselves a bit more instead of this backward passing negative rubbish im seeing at the moment. Id like to see januzaj in the team every week at least hes having a go. If a striker had gambled and got on the end of one or two of his crosses everyone would be blowing him right now.

Spazdarn

19 is so young, when the team was devoid of creativity last year he was one of the few bright sparks. He's bound to make loads of foolish decisions at that age. Felt his directness was a definitely plus in the last game, thought Paddy McNair did well too.

Think the criticism should be reserved for the senior players that aren't quite pulling their weight and the manager for not utilising the squad to their strengths.

Falcao playing with back to goal, trying to bring other players into play, which he's clearly not very good at.

Rooney in midfield, playing switch board operator, passing it to the wings, receiving it and swapping it to the other wing. It offers nothing. He's our most mobile (according to stats anyway) forward, he should be up front playing off one of the other lads.

Jones and Smalling too prone to playing it back to the keeper, too safe. It's very frustrating to see Blind drop deep to receive the ball and transition the play, only for the two lads to sht their pants and play it back to De Gea... too slow.

Valencia not being able to use his left foot at all, is so glaringly obvious a handicap on the team that I won't even get into it...

Plenty of problems to solve, but sticking the boot in the few young fellas we have is counter intuitive.

dor843088

dor843088 wrote: »

On the januzaj criticism . The was a period when ronaldo first joined he used to make ridiculous mistakes and could have been accused of just as much if not more than januzaj. 20 step overs just to be dispossessed and made look like a fool , shooting from long distances instead of giving a pass etc etc. Give the lad a break hes 19 has huge potential and believes hes capable. In fact I wish a few more utd players believed in themselves a bit more instead of this backward passing negative rubbish im seeing at the moment. Id like to see januzaj in the team every week at least hes having a go. If a striker had gambled and got on the end of one or two of his crosses everyone would be blowing him right now.

Januzaj is nothing like Ronaldo back then. Ronaldo's running at defenders was effective, when he overplayed it he had the skill to produce something or at the very least change it up somewhat. Januzaj just runs the same way outside the defender, when it doesn't work he stops and tries the exact same thing again. It's infuriating and he's never going to learn anything by just being allowed to do it.

bangkok

Liam O wrote: »

Januzaj is nothing like Ronaldo back then. Ronaldo's running at defenders was effective, when he overplayed it he had the skill to produce something or at the very least change it up somewhat. Januzaj just runs the same way outside the defender, when it doesn't work he stops and tries the exact same thing again. It's infuriating and he's never going to learn anything by just being allowed to do it.

yea, you knew straight away Ronaldo was going to be something special, he was fast, brave, skilful, 2 footed, good in the air (and before someone jumps on me saying he wasn't good in the air) I mean in general play from a goal kick or whatever he won his fair share of headers, januzaj will have a good career, but don't expect him to be winning pfa player of the year anytime soon

Pro. F

Liam O wrote: »

Do you regard the head down crosses that go nowhere as giving the ball away cheaply or not?

Yes I do. That happened one time.

Liam O wrote: »

Using possession well is not passing just so you can try and take on 3 or 4 players?

Running at the wide defenders, dragging them around and/or getting a decent shot in, laying the ball off to a teammate in a good position or putting in a good cross is using possession well for a winger. This is what Januzaj did most of the time.

Liam O wrote: »

There were times Rojo was there and just completely ignored as he went for silly runs.

There were four times Jan ignored Rojo when he was there supporting.

- The first time Jan put in a cross himself which was too close to the keeper. Nothing wrong with that decision, only the execution of the cross. No run, silly or otherwise, involved.

- The second time he ran at the two wide defenders and got tackled, so that's one silly run for you, since it didn't come off.

- The third time he cut inside and got a shot away which drew a save.

- The fourth time he ran into the box, took on a few defenders, looked for a cross/pass and when there wasn't one on laid it back to Rooney in space at the corner of the box.

So there was one time that you could describe as him ignoring Rojo and going on a silly run. Or you could just be honest and say that the majority of the time he used possession well when in the final third.

dor843088

bangkok wrote: »

yea, you knew straight away Ronaldo was going to be something special, he was fast, brave, skilful, 2 footed, good in the air (and before someone jumps on me saying he wasn't good in the air) I mean in general play from a goal kick or whatever he won his fair share of headers, januzaj will have a good career, but don't expect him to be winning pfa player of the year anytime soon

Liam O wrote: »

Januzaj is nothing like Ronaldo back then. Ronaldo's running at defenders was effective, when he overplayed it he had the skill to produce something or at the very least change it up somewhat. Januzaj just runs the same way outside the defender, when it doesn't work he stops and tries the exact same thing again. It's infuriating and he's never going to learn anything by just being allowed to do it.

Thats a bit of a strawman from both of you . I never said januzaj was as good or the same as Ronaldo . My point was ronaldo was far from the complete player who was without his silly mistakes or frustrating behaviour at times. And telling januzaj to stop trying to beat players would be like tell scholes not to hit a long pass because a few didnt get completed. Thats the player he is and noone is 100% we have to take risks sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt .

Spazdarn

Yeah lads, can we cut out the Ronaldo comparisons, he's one of the greatest players of his era, possibly ever... reminds me of the peep show quote from Johnson, unrealistic expectations!

"I mean, take a look at her, mate. Take a good, hard look at her. What do you see? What do you actually see in her, compared to, say, a supermodel like Gisele? Or any of the other supermodels?"

TheDoc

Spazdarn wrote: »

Yeah lads, can we cut out the Ronaldo comparisons, he's one of the greatest players of his era, possibly ever... reminds me of the peep show quote from Johnson, unrealistic expectations!

"I mean, take a look at her, mate. Take a good, hard look at her. What do you see? What do you actually see in her, compared to, say, a supermodel like Gisele? Or any of the other supermodels?"

I think the Ronaldo comparisons are apt, as they should be for any budding, young winger. Ronaldo at Sporting, and during his early iteration was a dime a dozen winger. Pace, some tricks, not hard to find.

But then he started working REALLy hard. Strength training, weight training, extra work on the field and so much more.

Then nearly overnight, he changed from a winger you'd struggle to seperate from the rest, to this absolute monster. His finishing just was out of this world, his decision making was so much better, he was stronger, he was faster.

Januzaj is suprisingly "slow" for a player of his ilk. Sure he has some pace, but its not as fast as you'd maybe assume. That probably comes from him playing as a 10 through his teens, he's never had to run channels or the likes.

I don't think when you use Ronaldo as a comparison it's against the finish product, but as a roadmap for any 18-20 year old. And it's also a really good example of the shift in proffesional football now. Talent and ability isn't enough anymore, you need to couple that with serious dedication and sacrifice if you really want to carve something out of your career.

That hasn't been more obvious this season then watching the like of Ben Arfa, Ballotelli, Tarabt to name a few immediate examples. Bundles of talent and ability, missing that burning desire to improve and achieve that will result in squander.

UnitedIrishman

Liam O wrote: »

Januzaj is nothing like Ronaldo back then. Ronaldo's running at defenders was effective, when he overplayed it he had the skill to produce something or at the very least change it up somewhat. Januzaj just runs the same way outside the defender, when it doesn't work he stops and tries the exact same thing again. It's infuriating and he's never going to learn anything by just being allowed to do it.

That's revisionist history there. And Januzaj mixes it up quite a bit in either going inside the defender (against West Ham had a few efforts on goal blocked after coming inside) or out. Giving a winger basically 6 months (and very few games in that) before becoming annoyed with him isn't exactly a long time period, especially for a kid.

KH25

This thread makes me miss Ronaldo so much. He was phenomenal to watch at his best.

Spazdarn

TheDoc wrote: »

I think the Ronaldo comparisons are apt, as they should be for any budding, young winger. Ronaldo at Sporting, and during his early iteration was a dime a dozen winger. Pace, some tricks, not hard to find.

But then he started working REALLy hard. Strength training, weight training, extra work on the field and so much more.

Then nearly overnight, he changed from a winger you'd struggle to seperate from the rest, to this absolute monster. His finishing just was out of this world, his decision making was so much better, he was stronger, he was faster.

Januzaj is suprisingly "slow" for a player of his ilk. Sure he has some pace, but its not as fast as you'd maybe assume. That probably comes from him playing as a 10 through his teens, he's never had to run channels or the likes.

I don't think when you use Ronaldo as a comparison it's against the finish product, but as a roadmap for any 18-20 year old. And it's also a really good example of the shift in proffesional football now. Talent and ability isn't enough anymore, you need to couple that with serious dedication and sacrifice if you really want to carve something out of your career.

That hasn't been more obvious this season then watching the like of Ben Arfa, Ballotelli, Tarabt to name a few immediate examples. Bundles of talent and ability, missing that burning desire to improve and achieve that will result in squander.

Like you've stated above, Januzaj doesn't have the strength or pace that Ronaldo has, and likely never will. Ronaldo is like the perfect footballing specimen, no matter how much muscle Januzaj puts on he's not going to have the physical attributes.

Looking to Ronaldo as inspiration, as you said a roadmap is the right way to go about it, but I wouldn't use comparisons with Ronaldo as a stick to beat him with. Januzaj may go on to become a very good player for United and still not reach anywhere near the heights that Ronaldo did.

A more realistic comparison is whether Januzaj can ever get near Giggs's output.

bangkok

KH25 wrote: »

This thread makes me miss Ronaldo so much. He was phenomenal to watch at his best.

even we he started his first game, fan favourite after 5mins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IyXxoyyFr8

MagicIRL

Watching that video... how much do I actually miss Ruud? What a striker. Magic.

TheDoc

Spazdarn wrote: »

Like you've stated above, Januzaj doesn't have the strength or pace that Ronaldo has, and likely never will. Ronaldo is like the perfect footballing specimen, no matter how much muscle Januzaj puts on he's not going to have the physical attributes.

Looking to Ronaldo as inspiration, as you said a roadmap is the right way to go about it, but I wouldn't use comparisons with Ronaldo as a stick to beat him with. Januzaj may go on to become a very good player for United and still not reach anywhere near the heights that Ronaldo did.

A more realistic comparison is whether Januzaj can ever get near Giggs's output.

Ronaldo had the pace, but he didn't have the strength.

It comes with work and more work. Bale has gone through an incredible transformation at Madrid physically.

Ronaldo was not what he is now, he was a whippet. He put in serious work to make himself faster and stronger. Januzaj can do the same, potentially weill. Hope he has the aptitude and mentality to do it.

Anyone else feel that a straight win versus Preston this Monday isn't nearly a sure thing? They're currently in 4th below M.K. Dons in League 1, M.K. Dons who hammered us. Plus we didn't exactly make light work of Yeovil and Cambridge.

Stopped short of betting on any result in the United game when doing an accumulator earlier for the F.A. Cup games this weekend.

MagicIRL

stankratz wrote: »

Anyone else feel that a straight win versus Preston this Monday isn't nearly a sure thing? They're currently in 4th below M.K. Dons in League 1, M.K. Dons who hammered us. Plus we didn't exactly make light work of Yeovil and Cambridge.

Stopped short of betting on any result in the United game when doing an accumulator earlier for the F.A. Cup games this weekend.

With Wayne Rooney in midfield, and two strikers that mimic each other's playstyles, anything is possible.

Play Herrera in midfield, and Rooney just off Falcao, and we'll absolutely bend Preston over.

Lord TSC

MagicIRL wrote: »

With Wayne Rooney in midfield, and two strikers that mimic each other's playstyles, anything is possible.

Play Herrera in midfield, and Rooney just off Falcao, and we'll absolutely bend Preston over.

First it was 3 at the back, now it's Rooney in midfield. What shall we blame if we move Rooney up front and still play poorly :P

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

Ronaldo had the pace, but he didn't have the strength.

It comes with work and more work. Bale has gone through an incredible transformation at Madrid physically.

Ronaldo was not what he is now, he was a whippet. He put in serious work to make himself faster and stronger. Januzaj can do the same, potentially weill. Hope he has the aptitude and mentality to do it.

Ronaldo didn't have the strength but playing the role he did then he didn't need it so much as he did in the one he moved into, watching old videos you can see how he could unbalance one or more defenders with a simple flick inside and get space. Underrated technically too, he could put in some fantastic crosses in his early days.

KH25

Lord TSC wrote: »

First it was 3 at the back, now it's Rooney in midfield. What shall we blame if we move Rooney up front and still play poorly :P

We'll have to wait and see! It would actually require Rooney not being in midfield first

The Moldy Gowl

I hate playing lower teams. They always tend to make a huge occasion of it and will always try harder to beat man United and make history, especially a team like Preston to avenge moyes.

They will be fired up for it and will try make history, it's 11 v 11 just to simplify it.

intellectual dosser

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

I hate playing lower teams. They always tend to make a huge occasion of it and will always try harder to beat man United and make history, especially a team like Preston to avenge moyes.

They will be fired up for it and will try make history, it's 11 v 11 just to simplify it.

I think that would be a bit much.