Am I having a crisis of Atheism?

Ferriter

Hi,

I've been what could be described as an atheist since I was a teenager. I'm 32 now. Religion just left my life. The traditional Catholic ceremony did nothing for me. I just wanted the extra sleep at the weekend.

It all went away. I was never anti-religion. I really didn't think about it. I never engaged or gave much thought to the debates that went on here, or in traditional media. Life was just there without any great need to think about some other power - or the lack of it. I grew up.

I've had a tough year though. My brother had a life-changing accident. My Gran died. A relationship ended. As a result, I ended up back home over Christmas with my parents. I went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve with them.

It was one of the most beautiful and simple things I've ever experienced. A small rural church lit up only with candles. A sense of community. People who made the effort to head to the arse end of nowhere to be there. Beautiful songs that would resonate with any human. It made me happy in a really weird way. Even shaking hands with strangers. It all felt very lovely, caring and non-judgemental.

Looking back on it, I don't believe in the message about Mary, Joseph and the body of Christ. But it was spiritual despite it. I felt a peace I haven't had at any other stage this year. I'm strongly thinking about returning to Mass. Even to have an hour to sit and be.

Am I a lunatic for thinking this way? How do I get rid of this aching spiritualism that gnaws at my edges?

kryogen

Its not spiritualism, in a religious sense imo, you just feel at home there, the sense of the community, the belonging after the rough year. The comfort and the peace in it.

That stuff is natural to us, but the modern world has chipped away at it, strangers are now to be feared, there is nothing simple, every occasion has to be made in to some elaborate event, to get back to simple ways and customs for a break is fantastic and good for the soul for want of a better word.

Edit: Im sorry, I thought I would be able to explain my thoughts better and go into more detail but Im just too tired

qt3.14

I've always felt spirituality as others understand it, is what I understand by the word empathy. This is probably going to be muddled thinking but what I mean is whenever I talk to someone, or read a post like yours where someone is describing something they feel is spiritual I find I identify with the feelings but not the label.
I don't think it's something to be gotten rid of. It's a need in most if not all humans. We're social creatures and there's more layers to "social" than having what contemporary culture regards as a "social life".
Or something. It's 4am!

Greenmachine

Sounds like a cult. Just wait till they turn the tables.

Amazingfun

What exactly do you think a forum of atheists will advise you to do?

Sounds like you've had a spiritual awakening of sorts and ought to run with it

Even try the Latin Mass-it's quite beautiful.

Mark Tapley

You had a peaceful experience with family and friends, nothing wrong with that. I can see the appeal of the candlelit church, the singing ,a communal experience. Being an atheist doesn't mean you can't enjoy such an occasion.

obplayer

Ferriter wrote: »

Hi,

I've been what could be described as an atheist since I was a teenager. I'm 32 now. Religion just left my life. The traditional Catholic ceremony did nothing for me. I just wanted the extra sleep at the weekend.

It all went away. I was never anti-religion. I really didn't think about it. I never engaged or gave much thought to the debates that went on here, or in traditional media. Life was just there without any great need to think about some other power - or the lack of it. I grew up.

I've had a tough year though. My brother had a life-changing accident. My Gran died. A relationship ended. As a result, I ended up back home over Christmas with my parents. I went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve with them.

It was one of the most beautiful and simple things I've ever experienced. A small rural church lit up only with candles. A sense of community. People who made the effort to head to the arse end of nowhere to be there. Beautiful songs that would resonate with any human. It made me happy in a really weird way. Even shaking hands with strangers. It all felt very lovely, caring and non-judgemental.

Looking back on it, I don't believe in the message about Mary, Joseph and the body of Christ. But it was spiritual despite it. I felt a peace I haven't had at any other stage this year. I'm strongly thinking about returning to Mass. Even to have an hour to sit and be.

Am I a lunatic for thinking this way? How do I get rid of this aching spiritualism that gnaws at my edges?

Do you feel that some religion's, out of the many of them, teachings are correct? If not I believe you are feeling a sense of community with people whose teachings you grew up with. There is no harm in that. Don't feel ashamed that your rational views disagree with your emotional reactions, especially at such a family-oriented time of year as this! Go with the flow for now and when the world returns to normal think it through.

Ferriter

Amazingfun wrote: »

What exactly do you think a forum of atheists will advise you to do?

Sounds like you've had a spiritual awakening of sorts and ought to run with it

Even try the Latin Mass-it's quite beautiful.

Well, I came from a background of general non-believing. I didn't make much of an effort in reaching that conclusion, and I'd never feel the need to let people know about it. I lived my adult life without religion or the lack of it. I became me.

But Mass was beautiful thing on Christmas Eve. I didn't become Saint Paul. I just felt a real sense of serenity and beauty with the world. It was people being really lovely. From the altar down. It felt like belonging. There was a wonderful sense of calm and happiness. The type I haven't experienced with online media, music, food or travel. This became tranquility. To feel human.

Ferriter

Amazingfun wrote: »

What exactly do you think a forum of atheists will advise you to do?

Sounds like you've had a spiritual awakening of sorts and ought to run with it

Even try the Latin Mass-it's quite beautiful.

Well, I came from a background of general non-believing. I didn't make much of an effort in reaching that conclusion, and I'd never feel the need to let people know about it. I lived my adult life without religion or the need for it. I became me.

But Mass was beautiful thing on Christmas Eve. I didn't become Saint Paul. I just felt a real sense of serenity and beauty with the world. It was people being really lovely. From the altar down. It felt like belonging. There was a wonderful sense of calm and happiness. The type I haven't experienced with online media, music, food or travel. This became tranquility. To feel human.

lynski

But that is what it is supposed to be. We attended a Pentecostal service in cork a few years ago and the 'love bombing' we received was creepy to us but it was obvious how seductive it would be to someone who was more vulnerable.
Religious services are supposed to comfort and seduce you. As you said you don't believe in the teachings so no crisis of faith, but the communal experience is seductive and might even be useful to you.

recedite

qt3.14 wrote: »

I've always felt spirituality as others understand it, is what I understand by the word empathy...

The ancient Greeks referred to "soul" and "spirit". Soul is the kind of experience the OP describes. Spirit is a more animated kind of thing; its the "get up and go" - the opposite of apathy.
Being atheist does not in any way deny these parts of the human experience. It just separates out the religious BS from them. There are probably lots of atheists going to religious meetings, even some as clerics, who enjoy the soulful/spritual experience without believing in the BS aspect.
Other types of soul food are listening to music, meditating, climb a mountain, surf a wave... its all good.

@ OP; Going back to your roots for a short time by staying with your parents at Christmas is all well and good, but the whole thing will turn sour after a few days and reality will return. As Benjamin Franklin allegedly said, "houseguests are like fish, they begin to stink after about three days"

Pwindedd

Sometimes there is something to be said for another mass! Go again and see how you get on. I'm sure no one will mind.

jank

For a lot of people religion is the community. Forget the dogma, or the the rules, the community is what most people want out of religion. Hence the Irish cultural catholic. There are even Atheist organisation here in Australia that organise Sunday get togethers, very akin to a religious service but obviously with no religion. They still sing songs, tell stories and all that. If it makes people happy and offers support for people in their lives then that can be a very good and positive thing. People will of course dissect this stuff down to atoms and electrons but you know what they say about a cynic, they know the price of everything but the value of nothing. By all means OP explore it.

mewso

Pot luck really if you ask me. Another Christmas Eve mass in another town might be a boring over-long waste of time. If it all clicks then fine but I can't go to mass (when I do out of respect for a wedding or funeral) and not be appalled at the whole unthinking ritual of the experience. Sit, stand, kneel, ring bell, recite meaningless prayer. Maybe I'm just more cynical but if a community is only nice to each other for an hour a week then there is something fundamentally wrong with people and it might be that thing that brings them together for that hour and then leaves them to hate each other, get drunk and argue for the rest of the week.

Cantremember

It sounds like you have hidden depths OP. As dogma means nothing to you shop around for something that gives you what you haven't found. There's a variety available. Humanity is a wonderfully rich thing and creates all sorts of experiences for itself.

Akrasia

Even Richard Dawkins enjoys going to church at christmas to hear the choir and take in the atmosphere.

Humans are very receptive to communal experiences and this can trigger spiritual feelings. As well as this, if you've had a really stressful and difficult year, there could have been an enormous sense of release from feeling that you were in a safe place amongst friends

I don't think religion has any monopoly on generating feelings of safety, security and spirituality and if religion just left it at nice ceremonies that make people feel good, then I would have absolutely no problem with religion. Unfortunately, religions (of all kinds) use these ceremonies that cause heightened emotions to suck people into the rest of the BS that they are involved with.

Stealthfins

That experience lasts a while, been there myself and it felt good.
But it soon wears off after it gets
repetitive.

Just like a good song or movie, although I still think The Cure are great along with a few more bands....

There's one church service in Ireland I long to attend and that's the chapel in Dingle where Aidan Gillen presents "Other Voices"

Beaner1

I've felt the same after a decent ****e but never felt the need to worship the results.

Stealthfins

Come on, you mean to say you never experienced the big white telephone to God

Effin liar lol

Harika

I think I would compare it with a made up story:
A heterosexuell goes into a gay bar cause his friends go there too. He has fun with the lads and leaves. At home he thinks he enjoyed it there and wants to go back, because it was so much fun with the people there. Should be challenge his sexuality? No, he enjoyed the conversations and craic with the people there, nothing wrong with that.
In fact the more relaxed you can go to church/gay bar without feeling bad going there makes you more confident about your religion/sexuality. In OTs opening text nothing points towards becoming catholic again (nothing wrong with that anyway), but enjoying the company of those people. So enjoy it, have your spirituality, have a good time, nothing wrong with that.

Ferriter

Sorry, just logged back into boards. I had to go to another Mass on Thursday - an anniversary mass for an Uncle. And I'll admit that I didn't feel the same connection. The romance of the Christmas Eve mass obviously got to me at a moment (thanks for all the replies by the way).

I still enjoyed it though. As I said, I don't really believe in the dogmatic Catholic side of things. And I'm sure I'd also enjoy a ceremony from another religion. I haven't even considered the 'bigger questions' over the past week, but I definitely get a little bit of piece and comfort from sitting in a lovely building and just being aware. Forgetting the tragedy, the hurt, the endless need to check things on my mobile.

I'm not sure if it's a need for some sort of profound spiritualism, more than a desire to just sit and be. But I'm really glad I've discovered it. I think I'll go a bit more often. Sit down the back and relax.

Beaner1 wrote: »

I've felt the same after a decent ****e but never felt the need to worship the results.

I'm genuinely not trying to be antagonistic, but this is the only response on this thread that served absolutely no purpose. I've taken many a fine sh1te myself over the years. I even find scatological humour mildly funny. And I'm not coming in here as a recent convert to the power of God. I just wanted a perspective from others who'd consider themselves 'kinda agnostic'.

Cantremember

The scatological humour can be good. The eschatological is what genuinely I find hilarious.

Hotblack Desiato

Ferriter wrote: »

It all went away. I was never anti-religion. I really didn't think about it.

Well. maybe you should.

The many crimes of the RCC in Ireland and around the world would be a good starting point.

This is a church with vast palaces, works of art and solid gold tabernacles that preaches about justice for the poor. Think about that for a minute.

Think about how they actually took out an insurance policy to insulate them from paedophile compensation claims.

Think about how they later pressured the Irish government to insulate them from the majority of paedophile compensation claims, then weaseled out of paying the rest.

Think about their silence about the 800 babies buried 'somewhere' in Tuam, and the thousands elsewhere. Think about institutionalised child abuse, trafficking and selling.

That's just for starters.

No non-believer - or any person with a functioning conscience - should give this organisation the time of day, not even the passive endorsement of attendance.

lufties

Ferriter wrote: »

Hi,

I've been what could be described as an atheist since I was a teenager. I'm 32 now. Religion just left my life. The traditional Catholic ceremony did nothing for me. I just wanted the extra sleep at the weekend.

It all went away. I was never anti-religion. I really didn't think about it. I never engaged or gave much thought to the debates that went on here, or in traditional media. Life was just there without any great need to think about some other power - or the lack of it. I grew up.

I've had a tough year though. My brother had a life-changing accident. My Gran died. A relationship ended. As a result, I ended up back home over Christmas with my parents. I went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve with them.

It was one of the most beautiful and simple things I've ever experienced. A small rural church lit up only with candles. A sense of community. People who made the effort to head to the arse end of nowhere to be there. Beautiful songs that would resonate with any human. It made me happy in a really weird way. Even shaking hands with strangers. It all felt very lovely, caring and non-judgemental.

Looking back on it, I don't believe in the message about Mary, Joseph and the body of Christ. But it was spiritual despite it. I felt a peace I haven't had at any other stage this year. I'm strongly thinking about returning to Mass. Even to have an hour to sit and be.

Am I a lunatic for thinking this way? How do I get rid of this aching spiritualism that gnaws at my edges?

It sounds like you needed some solace and peace after the tough year. Having grown up in rural ireland it left me bitter and hateful, gossiping, one upmanship, begrudgery and all the other fakery..a backward place with lots of falseness. People doing the holier than thou thing at christmas.

I wouldn't worry about how your feeling, you were just vunerable by the sounds of it

MikeSD

How about you believe in what you want, and not ask people what you should believe in?

Karl Stein

Ferriter wrote: »

I never engaged or gave much thought to the debates that went on here...

I thought you were a new poster?

I've had a tough year though. My brother had a life-changing accident. My Gran died. A relationship ended. As a result, I ended up back home over Christmas with my parents.

My sympathies, but if you were at a loose end then it wouldn't be 'ending up back home'. Ending up back home would be perfectly normal and not require a plethora of unfortunate events to justify it.

I went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve with them.

An atheist suddenly decided to become all 'ah sure why not'? Fair enough.

A small rural church lit up only with candles.

Sounds idyllic. Almost like something you'd see in a movie or Friends or some other thing that requires winning over an audience.

Beautiful songs that would resonate with any human.

Beautiful songs in a church lit only by candles in the back arse of nowhere? That is truly fortuitous.

It made me happy in a really weird way.

Beautiful songs in a candlelit church miles from anywhere? That would make any audience person feel happy.

Even shaking hands with strangers. It all felt very lovely, caring and non-judgemental.

If you're attending an idyllic church in the arse end of nowhere with your family then it's very unusual that there were so many 'strangers' to shake hands with.

I'm afraid the cynic in me is not convinced of the veracity of this lovely story. Then again I'm a sceptic so maybe I'm just being all sceptical.

Kidchameleon

Enjoy the sense of community. You don't have to believe in god to go to mass. I'd imagine many of the people who go and even those who preach there don't .

antiskeptic

Ferriter wrote: »

Hi,

I've been what could be described as an atheist since I was a teenager. I'm 32 now. Religion just left my life. The traditional Catholic ceremony did nothing for me.

I was an atheist in the "I was never anti-religion. I really didn't think about it" way until I was in my mid-30's. I remember some or other important match involving Liverpool on the tellie on the night before my confirmation ... and my not mentioning to my parents the fact the school had arranged for evening confession in preparation for the big day. Not that it would have fazed them much, we were hardly church goers - but I wasn't taking chances.

Beautiful songs that would resonate with any human.

Note the fact that they wouldn't resonate with a whole host of folk. You can look at one of those Christmas services shown on the BBC, where the camera pans the crowd containing the famous and not so. Most aren't moved at all.

Those songs resonated with you, then. Why they did is another issue.

Am I a lunatic for thinking this way? How do I get rid of this aching spiritualism that gnaws at my edges?

When you don't know what the evidence proves, go in the direction it points (said some wise soul).

I'm a Christian - but if you'd said you'd sat in a mosque or a Buddhist temple and felt as you felt I'd say the same thing to you.

If there is something bigger than the mere mechanical world posited by atheism then the universe testifies to it being BIG. And capable of answering needs and scratching itches which atheism can't ever. Atheism posits a purposeless universe and so your pain has no purpose beyond the very local. Something bigger points to purpose. And a point to your pain (especially since pain, generally, is aimed at informing us that something is up. That something is in position of unhealth)

Finding that there is a place of peace and calm and succour. That can't be but an experience worth chasing down.


Something else you said stuck:

Forgetting the tragedy, the hurt, the endless need to check things on my mobile.

Yet when you clear away the clutter of religion/religious practice and look at the gospels themselves (then beyond) you come across a drumbeat message: the lost, the destitute, the impoverished, the rejected, the sick of body and mind, the desperate, the weak ... are those who God can nearest meet with.

I'm not trying to say God is knocking on your door. But it was in such left-field fashion and under such circumstances of personal end-of-tether desperation that he knocked on mine.

What also struck me was an example of the world's lie. Mobility telephony is pimped as the greatest thing since sliced bread. As was email before it. And pagers before that. There was a time, in the not so distant past when all this labour saving technology promised us 20 hour work weeks / 20 week work years. Societies biggest problem was what folk were going to do with all this leisure time

Whilst the ability of the technology is fantastic in one sense, no one ever advertises the drug aspect. The slavery which comes with it. They were handing out company paid iphones a few years back at work and, having been already bitten by the unexpected (you are now contactable 24/7) when they were handing out Nokia's a few years before that, I knew to keep my hands in my pockets.

It's great having a phone on which there is virtually nothing you can check!

Heisman

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Enjoy the sense of community. You don't have to believe in god to go to mass. I'd imagine many of the people who go and even those who preach there don't .

Agreed. I go to churches sometimes just to chill out. There is a church just off grafton street that is great to just sit and chill out in for 5-10 minutes while having a break from shopping or waiting for someone etc. Just because I think the entire thing is a con and their beloved Jesus was almost surely a product of rape doesn't mean I can't enjoy the tranquil atmosphere.

MrPudding

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Think about how they actually took out an insurance policy to insulate them from paedophile compensation claims.

This one bugs me quite a bit actually. on the one hand they say that they 'did not understand what was going on' and that 'no one knew what paedophilia was', and this was why they took no action, no action that is except take out insurance policies.

MrP

Soft Falling Rain

Karl Stein wrote: »

I thought you were a new poster?



My sympathies, but if you were at a loose end then it wouldn't be 'ending up back home'. Ending up back home would be perfectly normal and not require a plethora of unfortunate events to justify it.



An atheist suddenly decided to become all 'ah sure why not'? Fair enough.



Sounds idyllic. Almost like something you'd see in a movie or Friends or some other thing that requires winning over an audience.



Beautiful songs in a church lit only by candles in the back arse of nowhere? That is truly fortuitous.



Beautiful songs in a candlelit church miles from anywhere? That would make any audience person feel happy.



If you're attending an idyllic church in the arse end of nowhere with your family then it's very unusual that there were so many 'strangers' to shake hands with.

I'm afraid the cynic in me is not convinced of the veracity of this lovely story. Then again I'm a sceptic so maybe I'm just being all sceptical.

You went to the bother of dissecting the OP's post line by line at half 3 in the morning? Some of you really need to relax, especially given the op has since come back and clarified his position.

Anyway, I can relate to the situation. Sometimes we're just looking for a connection in a deep period of loneliness or isolation, and when we do find a hint of that connection we tend to put more stock in it than actually warranted.

I've felt what I thought was a spiritual awakening at times but when I cleared my head, I could never reconcile what I was feeling with accepting religious teachings.

Cantremember

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

You went to the bother of dissecting the OP's post line by line at half 3 in the morning? Some of you really need to relax, especially given the op has since come back and clarified his position.

Anyway, I can relate to the situation. Sometimes we're just looking for a connection in a deep period of loneliness or isolation, and when we do find a hint of that connection we tend to put more stock in it than actually warranted.

I've felt what I thought was a spiritual awakening at times but when I cleared my head, I could never reconcile what I was feeling with accepting religious teachings.

I think the dissection was well done and necessary. It's too easy to take things at face value.

Karl Stein

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

You went to the bother of dissecting the OP's post line by line at half 3 in the morning?

Yeah and I was half pissed too. Would you rather I was sober, wearing a bow tie, and writing at a more godly hour?

Imho the story is made up. Deal with it.

shruikan2553

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Think about how they actually took out an insurance policy to insulate them from paedophile compensation claims.

The premium for that must have been a lot. A few plates passed around to gather that up.

robindch

Ferriter wrote: »

[...] I had to go to another Mass on Thursday [...] I still enjoyed it though. As I said, I don't really believe in the dogmatic Catholic side of things. And I'm sure I'd also enjoy a ceremony from another religion. I haven't even considered the 'bigger questions' over the past week [...]

As many have pointed out, the warm feeling of community and shared ritual which a good church service can provide can be great, especially after a tough year. But as Akrasis has said, the church does use peoples' natural feelings for community and ritual as gateways to their less pleasant side. For myself, the high-church protestants have always done the best services and owing to illness, I missed going to a carol service during the christmas break - christmas wasn't christmas without it!

If you're interested in just visiting the odd church from time to time, then the following website might help guide you - it's random people writing random reports on various church services, mostly in the UK, but a few from Ireland. Some are quite entertaining

http://www.shipoffools.com/mystery/

Enjoy!

ScumLord

Mass could be seen as a very effective propaganda tool or the perfect representation of the feeling of awe god inspires in some people.

It's a very effective method of conveying the message of the church, it's been designed over thousands of years to speak to people that can't read. Everything about a church has been specifically designed to give you the feelings you get.

Being in a high ceiling church, at a time like christmas, listening to a powerful church choir still gives me goosebumps. Belief or no belief, a church works at getting the message of awe and community across.

I think that the church did fill a communal role in society for a long time and it's demise is leaving a gap that we don't know how to fill yet. We like to think we can just go our individual ways and exist as an independent sentient beings, but the fact is we're not that kind of animal, we need community and a way to express it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with going through the mass experience and enjoying it, without believing it. It's very effective at what it does.

Hotblack Desiato

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The premium for that must have been a lot. A few plates passed around to gather that up.

Third Party, Fire and Pederast

Doctor DooM

I must be weird, I get that warm spiritual feeling when I'm alone on a beautiful night under a full moon.

antiskeptic

ScumLord wrote: »

Mass could be seen as a very effective propaganda tool or the perfect representation of the feeling of awe god inspires in some people.

It's a very effective method of conveying the message of the church, it's been designed over thousands of years to speak to people that can't read. Everything about a church has been specifically designed to give you the feelings you get.

Being in a high ceiling church, at a time like christmas, listening to a powerful church choir still gives me goosebumps. Belief or no belief, a church works at getting the message of awe and community across.

I think that the church did fill a communal role in society for a long time and it's demise is leaving a gap that we don't know how to fill yet. We like to think we can just go our individual ways and exist as an independent sentient beings, but the fact is we're not that kind of animal, we need community and a way to express it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with going through the mass experience and enjoying it, without believing it. It's very effective at what it does.

I knew there must be some reason for the fact that the priest was the only one who gets to drink the wine. Given folk go for every reason under the sun - bar for the reason mass is presumably intended - you might end up adding to the totality of unbelievers attending in attracting every wino in town.

Cute hoors, those priests.

ScumLord

antiskeptic wrote: »

I knew there must be some reason for the fact that the priest was the only one who gets to drink the wine. Given folk go for every reason under the sun - bar for the reason mass is presumably intended - you might end up adding to the totality of unbelievers attending in attracting every wino in town.

Cute hoors, those priests.

If you say you're allergic to Jesus flesh they'll let you drink the blood instead.

fisgon

Ferriter wrote: »

I still enjoyed it though. As I said, I don't really believe in the dogmatic Catholic side of things. And I'm sure I'd also enjoy a ceremony from another religion. I haven't even considered the 'bigger questions' over the past week, but I definitely get a little bit of piece and comfort from sitting in a lovely building and just being aware. Forgetting the tragedy, the hurt, the endless need to check things on my mobile.

I'm not sure if it's a need for some sort of profound spiritualism, more than a desire to just sit and be. But I'm really glad I've discovered it. I think I'll go a bit more often. Sit down the back and relax.

I think this is a fascinating thread, that throws up a number of important things about religion. I have a couple of different perspectives on this..

If someone who doesn't really believe wants to go to mass now and then, to enjoy the peace and calm, who is anyone to judge? What I would say, though, is that if you go to a Catholic church, and sit there while the priest is doing his thing, and even take part to even a limited extent, you are expressing a certain degree of support, - even of a limited kind - for the institution that owns the building you are sitting in.

Going to mass is not a neutral act, just as the catholic church is not a neutral, benign organization that is all about nice hymns and creating a tranquil space. Just because they do ceremony and ritual well, does not absolve them of the fact that they did run the industrial schools, the mother and baby homes, the launderies, they did facilitate child rape, and they will be campaigning against any opening of the abortion laws, and the gay marriage referendum. If someone has no problem with this, fine, but don't pretend that the church is anything other than what it is.

I would say to the OP to do what you want (I'm sure he/she will anyway), but not to lose sight of the nature of the organization you are supporting by going to church. Mass, on the one hand, and the whole edifice of catholic craziness on the other, are two sides of the same coin. It's the same institution that runs a moving midnight mass, and that stole and sold babies from unmarried mothers. That would do so again, if given the chance.

I think it is an interesting question to ask, if the OP hadn't been emotionally vulnerable after a difficult year, just at the time he/she attended midnight mass, would he/she now be questioning his/her atheism?

ScumLord

fisgon wrote: »

If someone who doesn't really believe wants to go to mass now and then, to enjoy the peace and calm, who is anyone to judge? What I would say, though, is that if you go to a Catholic church, and sit there while the priest is doing his thing, and even take part to even a limited extent, you are expressing a certain degree of support, - even of a limited kind - for the institution that owns the building you are sitting in.

That's a bit extreme I think. Sitting in a church doesn't mean you support it. Using water doesn't mean I support the water charges, Using a mobile phone doesn't mean I support child slave labour even though I would be financially supporting it with my purchase.

Going to mass is not a neutral act, just as the catholic church is not a neutral, benign organization that is all about nice hymns and creating a tranquil space. Just because they do ceremony and ritual well, does not absolve them of the fact that they did run the industrial schools, the mother and baby homes, the launderies, they did facilitate child rape, and they will be campaigning against any opening of the abortion laws, and the gay marriage referendum. If someone has no problem with this, fine, but don't pretend that the church is anything other than what it is.

The church never set out to cause harm, if you go back over their history without the bias of hate you'll find they've done plenty of good things, spread literacy around the world with their schools, gave medical care to people that were forgotten. The people of the church do set out to make the world a better place, its just their dogma and blind allegiance to the stories their elders passed on means they tend to get it all wrong. Bottom line is going to church doesn't show support for the members of the church that carried out horrible acts or the people in charge that covered up the truth to protect the church's reputation. They're a corruption of that system and they exist in any system that gives them power to control others.

Michael OBrien

ScumLord wrote: »

They're a corruption of that system and they exist in any system that gives them power to control others.

The core of christianity is awful, immoral and abusive. The catholic church leaders only followed on from a long tradition of fear, abuse and horror that is hard to even describe without lengthy dialogue on the matter. The priests are victims of their own organisation, the parents of the priests that shoved them into the profession are victims of the same organisation, the cycle of horror is all encompassing on a scale few even dare to think about.
There is nothing good about the church that has not been incidental rather than intentional or marred with the poison of the doctrines intrinsic to its nature.
Hospitals were used to control the sick, feed off them and take their land, use the families insecurities against them and profit from it. Schools were used likewise to indocrinate and control every generation, stifle any dissent and monitor all activities that might affect them, hence why priests were always in the administrations of such organisations and the rules heavily benefited the church's ethos. Even charities involve heavily scamming large amounts of money off donations to further their religious activities and to use the poor as a marketing campaign and a resource to exploit.
Don't believe for a moment the lies they apologists spread defending themselves.

Michael OBrien

Ferriter wrote: »

Am I a lunatic for thinking this way? How do I get rid of this aching spiritualism that gnaws at my edges?

1. Spiritualism is not the same as religion and it has many definitions.
2. There is nothing 'wrong' with enjoying a communal experience at a church. Being an atheist does not stop one enjoying any such experience.
3. Such experiences are transitory. Once the novelty wears off, and it will, it can quickly become mundane and then you begin to notice the actual words being expressed in the songs and speeches. Then you may notice the actual dire essence being expressed on reflection (human sacrifice being just one of them, demands for worship being another, demeaning your nature as a human being unless you please god as a third).

I grew up catholic, and remember clearly finding meaning at mass. I was a true believer but not some kind of creationist. However the more I learned and the more I studied the less it made sense. After realising eventually I had become an atheist in my late 30's, I studied religion a lot more, more out of amazement at how I was indoctrinated by such things so I could better understand myself than any attempt at doubting why I was an atheist. It was like lifting a scap on a festering wound and seeing the damage for the first time.

I can go to a mass and enjoy the songs (and have done with relatives at weddings, funerals and so forth) but only if I turn my mind off during it. To actually listen to the pseudo intellectual dribble and mumbo jumbo most of these priests spout as advice and comfort is insulting to me. The songs are like the fairy tales you listened to as a child without actually LISTENING to what the words actually are and their ramifications.

ScumLord

Michael OBrien wrote: »

The core of christianity is awful, immoral and abusive.

The core of christianity is to live like Jesus did, or at least how we're told he lived. Jesus said mostly nice things, good things, I don't remember him saying hate the gays, or subdue your women.

I think religion has run it's course and is defunct in todays world but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the impact it's had on human civilization. I mean religion as a whole not just any specific religion. Before humans started religious practices we had no civilization, little art, no farming. While some think farming lead to civilization, there is new evidence to show that religion came first and directly lead to farming and civilization.

I think we're far too quick to judge people in the past by our standards. We have to remember that the world we live in now and all the knowledge we have doesn't come to us naturally, it took millennia of reprogramming ourselves to get to the position we're in now but the fact remains underneath it all we're the same animal and we capable of being just as bigoted and backwards as any other person in time. It took a lot of work to get to the position the human race is in now and religion has a big part of those advances.

The catholic church leaders only followed on from a long tradition of fear, abuse and horror that is hard to even describe without lengthy dialogue on the matter.

I think that's a very biased opinion, you're letting your hatred of the church corrupt the facts. I don't think anyone in the history of the church has woken up in the morning and said to themselves "what horrible abuse can I carry out today". The fact is they were trying to do what they thought was right but they were misguided.

Hospitals were used to control the sick, feed off them and take their land, use the families insecurities against them and profit from it.

That's just nonsense, while you could say the end result ended up in something like you describe, again I don't think any person entered the churches hospital to take advantage of people. It's just not why people get into the medical profession. You have to stop making these people out to be monsters, they're not. They're just people cable of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Schools were used likewise to indocrinate and control every generation, stifle any dissent and monitor all activities that might affect them, hence why priests were always in the administrations of such organisations and the rules heavily benefited the church's ethos.

Well yes, they thought the church was gods work on earth, they felt the things they thought children were the most important things they needed to know. Again, they thought they were doing the right thing. Just like Spartans thought children needed to know how to be warriors and all the horrible acts against children that went along with that ethos. Since then we've learned a better way.


Just remember that people had to guess up until science came along, humans aren't born with knowledge. If you were born 200 years ago you'd be just as bigoted and willing to go along with the church as any of those people. Our generation has the advantage of every other generations mistakes.

Michael OBrien

ScumLord wrote: »

The core of christianity is to live like Jesus did, or at least how we're told he lived. Jesus said mostly nice things, good things, I don't remember him saying hate the gays, or subdue your women.

No, the core of christianity is to do what jesus commanded them to do or suffer eternal torture that involves the worst terrors possible, which were threatened without proof and reason was demeaned over faith. Blind faith is demonstrated in the story of doubting thomas for instance where believing without seeing evidence is lauded over evidence. The story of lazarus and the rich man is another horror story told by jesus justifying threats of hell and why there is no proof outside of believing what the old prophets are alleged to have given as testimony. If you actually looked at jesus with fresh eyes you would find a very different view than you currently hold, even as an atheist. Even the golden rule he is alleged to have spread puts god's authority above loving one another. Paul's letters (forgeries) include keeping women silent and that they should not be above or equal men, jesus did not see women as equal but subordinate. He supported slavery and his parables support it, he was a psychopath in the temple, going away and making a weapon. He was insane enough to threaten a fig tree to death for not bearing fruit out of season for him. The list goes on. There are some positive things he said, as there are some positive things Muhammed said, but in context and on balance, he is not what you think he was.

In regard to hospitals, I was talking about the church and priests in general, not specific doctors or nurses in them and their specific motives. Of course not every individual had the same awful goals as the institute that oversaw them and not every priest went around with that on his mind, then or now. While priests are as much victim as everyone else, the organisation did not 'become' corrupted, it was always corrupt from it's inception with the insanity of its goal(s) and the faulty logic that supported them.

I am biased against the church because I found reasons to hold my views, after years of research and listening to their arguments. I was in the pews when they lauded aids as the gift from god to wipe out homosexuals or lead them back on the 'right' path in the 90's, and condemned scientists for trying to find a cure or treatment, before they realised they could catch it too (just like some are using the ebola in the same fashion in some fundie protestant churches today). I remember their lies, I remember their obfuscations and I remember believing them as I grew up, which damaged my morality (for a time) and I will not forgive them that.

ScumLord

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Paul's letters (forgeries) include keeping women silent and that they should not be above or equal men, jesus did not see women as equal but subordinate.

Didn't a business woman fund Pauls trips around Europe to spread the Christian message? There are also paintings on the walls of the very early churches that seem to show women priests or at the very least women with important status. Women would have been big facilitators of the early church and as far as I was aware it wasn't really until much later that some pope demonised women.

I don't really get my information for the bible but I do like watching documentaries on the history of religions. The fact is back then women were second class citizens.

Michael OBrien

ScumLord wrote: »

Didn't a business woman fund Pauls trips around Europe to spread the Christian message? There are also paintings on the walls of the very early churches that seem to show women priests or at the very least women with important status. Women would have been big facilitators of the early church and as far as I was aware it wasn't really until much later that some pope demonised women.

I don't really get my information for the bible but I do like watching documentaries on the history of religions. The fact is back then women were second class citizens.

Paul was supposedly quite pro women (relatively), but half his letters are later forgeries so they were added for political goals and thus many of the commands that demean women, supposedly by Paul, is utter bull done by priests to settle arguments.
Such religions are knots of confusion, after hundreds of years of editing and tweaking and changing. Who knows what is actually true in regard to what the first messages were. Paul never met jesus and had serious arguments with Peter, which was whitewashed later by the church.
Docus are interesting but often extremely biased and often very one sided so take them with a pinch of salt. I have seen some that are laughably false in historicity.

Tim Robbins

Ferriter wrote: »

Hi,

I've been what could be described as an atheist since I was a teenager. I'm 32 now. Religion just left my life. The traditional Catholic ceremony did nothing for me. I just wanted the extra sleep at the weekend.

It all went away. I was never anti-religion. I really didn't think about it. I never engaged or gave much thought to the debates that went on here, or in traditional media. Life was just there without any great need to think about some other power - or the lack of it. I grew up.

I've had a tough year though. My brother had a life-changing accident. My Gran died. A relationship ended. As a result, I ended up back home over Christmas with my parents. I went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve with them.

It was one of the most beautiful and simple things I've ever experienced. A small rural church lit up only with candles. A sense of community. People who made the effort to head to the arse end of nowhere to be there. Beautiful songs that would resonate with any human. It made me happy in a really weird way. Even shaking hands with strangers. It all felt very lovely, caring and non-judgemental.

Looking back on it, I don't believe in the message about Mary, Joseph and the body of Christ. But it was spiritual despite it. I felt a peace I haven't had at any other stage this year. I'm strongly thinking about returning to Mass. Even to have an hour to sit and be.

Am I a lunatic for thinking this way? How do I get rid of this aching spiritualism that gnaws at my edges?

Nothing wrong with above. My wife would be more agnostic but enjoys going to Church of Ireland.

fisgon

ScumLord wrote: »

That's a bit extreme I think. Sitting in a church doesn't mean you support it. Using water doesn't mean I support the water charges, Using a mobile phone doesn't mean I support child slave labour even though I would be financially supporting it with my purchase.

Water and water charges? Huh? Your comparisons are not even close to the same thing I was talking about. Going to a church building does not imply a connection with catholicism, but sitting through a mass, and participating, even to a small extent, does. It is part of the same structure, and comes from the same source, as the organization that ran all of those brutal, heartless institutions in this country.

If, on repeated occasions, you go to mass and you stand when you are told to stand, and sit when you are told to sit, and kneel when you are told to kneel, you are indicating that you are happy to take part in a Catholic ritual, and by extension, that you are happy to have a connection to Catholicism. That's fine, as long as whoever is doing it realizes the full nature of Catholicism and doesn't just get sucked in by the nice hymns and incense.

And by the way, if you buy a mobile phone from a company that you know uses child slave labour, (I don't know if this has been confirmed in the case of any particular company) you are approving of this practice and you do bear some responsibility for the abuse. Of course you do, I'm really not sure how you can imagine that you don't.

ScumLord wrote: »

The church never set out to cause harm, .......... Bottom line is going to church doesn't show support for the members of the church that carried out horrible acts or the people in charge that covered up the truth to protect the church's reputation. They're a corruption of that system and they exist in any system that gives them power to control others.

This is massively naive. Isis doesn't set out to cause harm, they believe that what they are doing is God's work. No organization has the intention of causing harm, they all believe that they are acting in the best interest of humanity.

And the church has introduced a certain amount of education and health into some areas in the world, (though much less than they would claim) but this all comes with strings attached, ie. the spread of catholicism. This is what motivates the missionary work, more souls for the Pope. More power for the church.

And the idea that the criminals in the church are a corruption of some kind of noble ideal, this is the most naive idea of all. The abuses within the church and in society were a direct consequence of the nature of catholicism. The mother and child homes weren't some kind of aberration, they were the inevitable consequence of a society and a church that sought to punish any transgressive behaviour around sex. Ditto all of the other scandals. No-one in a country full of religious catholics raised an objection to any of these gulags and punishment homes during the decades of their existence.

The bottom line is that separating out the crimes of Catholicism from a moving and pleasing ceremony is what the majority of catholics do, this is the only way they can continue to go to mass. But it is dishonest, they have the same source, and in fact one of the reasons that there was so little dissent against religious domination for decades in this country was that people were in many ways taken in by the power of ritual, somehow believing that because they were moved by what the church did in midnight mass, for example, that it really was this pristine, untouchable, uncriticisable institution that it said it was.

ScumLord

fisgon wrote: »

Water and water charges? Huh? Your comparisons are not even close to the same thing I was talking about. Going to a church building does not imply a connection with catholicism, but sitting through a mass, and participating, even to a small extent, does. It is part of the same structure, and comes from the same source, as the organization that ran all of those brutal, heartless institutions in this country.

People keep giving out about the church but it took a nation to make all these things possible. It took politicians, guards, and our grandparents to make these abuses possible. You could argue that the church is the instigator and you'd be right to a certain extent but we're talking about behaviour that goes back thousands of years. The major religion in Europe before Christianity would have been the Roman religion that has sacrifices (although they seem par for the course in many pagan religions), forced virginity and all kinds of nonsense. Christianity could very easily be seen as an improvement on those practices. The human race is adapting at an alarming rate today thanks to science but before science things moved very slowly with bursts of development. Over all you can't expect the human race to just change behaviour rapidly because a minority think they have a better way.

If, on repeated occasions, you go to mass and you stand when you are told to stand, and sit when you are told to sit, and kneel when you are told to kneel, you are indicating that you are happy to take part in a Catholic ritual, and by extension, that you are happy to have a connection to Catholicism. That's fine, as long as whoever is doing it realizes the full nature of Catholicism and doesn't just get sucked in by the nice hymns and incense.

That's an extremist attitude to be fair. I can't go to a mass and observe without being complicit? Kneeling means I support the churches actions? I really don't understand how some atheists can be just as dogmatic about not believing as thiests can be about believing. If I want to go to a church and eat jesus flesh I can do so and it means absolutely nothing.

And by the way, if you buy a mobile phone from a company that you know uses child slave labour, (I don't know if this has been confirmed in the case of any particular company) you are approving of this practice and you do bear some responsibility for the abuse. Of course you do, I'm really not sure how you can imagine that you don't.

Slave and child labour are part and parcel of the electronics trade. In Africa they use children and lay people to dig for minerals used in electronics. You are supporting these practices by buying electronics. So put the high horse back in the shed.

And the church has introduced a certain amount of education and health into some areas in the world,

Europe especially, before the spread of christianity most people where not only illiterate but didn't even have a method of writing down their language. Christianity was education, there was little to no distinction between educating yourself and being religious. Again your blinkered by your unfounded hatred. Christianity was a culture as much as anything. It gave every person in Europe a shared culture that they hadn't known since the collapse of the Roman empire.

And the idea that the criminals in the church are a corruption of some kind of noble ideal, this is the most naive idea of all.

It's not a corruption of a noble idea it's a corruption of human social groups. They're con men that abuse any position of power. You think it's impossible for an atheist lecturer to take advantage of his position for personal gain? Doctors are all infallible? We're talking about human nature here not evil, or monsters, or an institution. Every crime committed by the church was committed by other organisations throughout time, they did nothing unique.

The abuses within the church and in society were a direct consequence of the nature of catholicism. The mother and child homes weren't some kind of aberration, they were the inevitable consequence of a society and a church that sought to punish any transgressive behaviour around sex. Ditto all of the other scandals. No-one in a country full of religious catholics raised an objection to any of these gulags and punishment homes during the decades of their existence.

These things are global and transcend religion, in a human civilization there's always a hierarchy and people without a place are typically shoved into a corner behind closed doors. Again, human nature.

The bottom line is that separating out the crimes of Catholicism from a moving and pleasing ceremony is what the majority of catholics do, this is the only way they can continue to go to mass. But it is dishonest, they have the same source,

No what you're doing is planting your ideas and misconceptions onto them as if they must see the world exactly as you do. I don't think you're in a position to judge these people based on your own dogma.

and in fact one of the reasons that there was so little dissent against religious domination for decades in this country was that people were in many ways taken in by the power of ritual, somehow believing that because they were moved by what the church did in midnight mass, for example, that it really was this pristine, untouchable, uncriticisable institution that it said it was.

Most catholics I've read on here are appalled by the churches actions and demanded something be done about it. Again, your making them out to be mindless monsters and again criticizing people for basic human behaviour. Sitting in a church, listening to a good choir, with all the smells and the people around you will affect you, it is propaganda and it works. That's what the church was designed for. If you can't feel that, that's your loss. Even though I can appreciate a mass and the thousand of years of civilization behind it I still think it's bunkum, it's fantastic bunkum though.