Hard going Springer hard to find.

snipe49

What is a hard going springer. from what i see out there at the moment it's a dog that will work heavy cover for about 3 hours then switch off.What do ye think ?

allan450

DONT go their snipe please.

Dawggone

snipe49 wrote: »

What is a hard going springer. from what i see out there at the moment it's a dog that will work heavy cover for about 3 hours then switch off.What do ye think ?

You're not wrong.

I've put a shed load of dogs through my hands over the years and I only had ONE decent springer. He was huge!
He was field trial bred also with parents and all grand parents FTCH's.

blackpearl

had springers years ago dawn till dark no problem 5 hours was hard hunting have setters now ,but listening to some of my mates they are giving out about their dogs been knackered after a few hours they are blameing it on trialing breeding, years ago you bought dogs from hunting people not dogs whose father was irish champ or mother won a trial,i have hunted over these dogs on woodcock top class for a hour or so then another 2 let out of the trailer I said it to the owner who was a top feild trailer he said his dogs would not keep the pace up after a hour or so,i could not belive this ,is it possible for the gene to be carried trough the breed.

snipe49

allan450 wrote: »

DONT go their snipe please.

Why not pal ?

Dawggone

blackpearl wrote: »

had springers years ago dawn till dark no problem 5 hours was hard hunting have setters now ,but listening to some of my mates they are giving out about their dogs been knackered after a few hours they are blameing it on trialing breeding, years ago you bought dogs from hunting people not dogs whose father was irish champ or mother won a trial,i have hunted over these dogs on woodcock top class for a hour or so then another 2 let out of the trailer I said it to the owner who was a top feild trailer he said his dogs would not keep the pace up after a hour or so,i could not belive this ,is it possible for the gene to be carried trough the breed.

I've been banging on about that for years....trials do not test stamina in dogs.
Both Pointer and Setter trials and Spaniel trials can be accused of this. They (especially Spaniels) look more for "style".
Beauty never boiled the pot...

snipe49

Dawggone wrote: »

I've been banging on about that for years....trials do not test stamina in dogs.
Both Pointer and Setter trials and Spaniel trials can be accused of this. They (especially Spaniels) look more for "style".
Beauty never boiled the pot...

The most u can hope to get now is 3 hours of hard going' shame.

hathcock

snipe49 wrote: »

The most u can hope to get now is 3 hours of hard going' shame.

Surprise surprise,the vast majority of springers today in this country are of trialling origin,bred for several generations for a quick spurt in front of a judge,if you breed continuously for a specific trait this trait will become ingrained in the breed.Common sense really,kicky mare=kicky foal.

snipe49

hathcock wrote: »

Surprise surprise,the vast majority of springers today in this country are of trialling origin,bred for several generations for a quick spurt in front of a judge,if you breed continuously for a specific trait this trait will become ingrained in the breed.Common sense really,kicky mare=kicky foal.

Very well said.

Dawggone

Hi rebok, what's with the animosity?

I've shot over FTCH's, bred them and trialled them...and I've never seen a trial that tests stamina.
Same goes for Pointers and Setters...and Retrievers.

I've listened to spaniel handlers moaning about cover in trials that you could easily walk through. I've shot heavier cover with thin skinned pointers.
Just a few rhetorical questions...

Why are non registered dogs not allowed to compete?
Why are the finer points of "steady to wing" etc sooooo important?

It's to keep out the cracking shooting dog that would be hard to beat. End of.
I'm not saying that it's a conspiracy by modern triallers as these rules are around with decades. The best spaniel I've had was from top field trial lines as previously said here but that "type" of dog wouldn't win jack shyte in trials because he had as much style as a Clumber! But feck he could go...

Annie Oakley was a great shooting woman and she reckoned that the best dog is the one that bags the most birds in the least amount of time, and I agree.
Trials started out with this ethos but was sadly lost along the way.

If the original trials which were ran on the Annie Oakley "ethos" produced legendary dogs when bred from, why are the modern field trial dogs NOT?

When there is a field trial with the same rules as the original trials, I'll be there!

I still trial dogs and love it but I will not show a dog unless I sincerely believe it's got something to add to the breed. One that should be bred from.

To me, a good dog IS a good dog, no matter whether it's a FTCH or a crossbred with no papers.

snipe49

hathcock wrote: »

Personal insults add nothing to the weight of your argument,and I won't dignify them by any discussion,best thing to do is to ignore this sort of drivel.I will leave it to snipe 49 to defend himself from the personal insults you are obviously so inclined to use.

It's not his first time useing that kind of talk he's very bold. I'll have to go to him for my next dog , !

varmintbill

A dog will hunt at whatever speed is in him ,whether it for one hour or two or all day they can't say to themselves I will take it handy today.from my experience of Springers and I've had them a long time there's a lot more bad dogs out there than good one's in my hunting life 40 years plus I ha've only had two dogs I can say were exceptional dogs the rest were as we say lodgers, I've paid hundreds of Euro for field trial bred dogs only to give them away, I've also give good money so called hard hunting dogs the to were useless, as far as I'm concerned it's all luck, a litter of five pups could have one good and the rest crap regardless of what way they are bred, your chances won't be any better breeding ftch to ftch or hard hunting to hard hunting its all luck.

rebok classic

Dawggone wrote: »

Hi rebok, what's with the animosity?

I've shot over FTCH's, bred them and trialled them...and I've never seen a trial that tests stamina.
Same goes for Pointers and Setters...and Retrievers.

I've listened to spaniel handlers moaning about cover in trials that you could easily walk through. I've shot heavier cover with thin skinned pointers.
Just a few rhetorical questions...

Why are non registered dogs not allowed to compete?
Why are the finer points of "steady to wing" etc sooooo important?

It's to keep out the cracking shooting dog that would be hard to beat. End of.
I'm not saying that it's a conspiracy by modern triallers as these rules are around with decades. The best spaniel I've had was from top field trial lines as previously said here but that "type" of dog wouldn't win jack shyte in trials because he had as much style as a Clumber! But feck he could go...

Annie Oakley was a great shooting woman and she reckoned that the best dog is the one that bags the most birds in the least amount of time, and I agree.
Trials started out with this ethos but was sadly lost along the way.

If the original trials which were ran on the Annie Oakley "ethos" produced legendary dogs when bred from, why are the modern field trial dogs NOT?

When there is a field trial with the same rules as the original trials, I'll be there!

I still trial dogs and love it but I will not show a dog unless I sincerely believe it's got something to add to the breed. One that should be bred from.

To me, a good dog IS a good dog, no matter whether it's a FTCH or a crossbred with no papers.

most if not all of those dogs would easily hunt all day they just lose the style and pace ,,,, and learn to hunt at their own pace and likewise there are plenty of rough shooting dogs if only trained and hunted for 30 mins at at time could win trials its a pity that trials dont replicate a real hunting day thats what puts me off i could never keep a good dog and only hunt it for 30 mins at a time my animosity is towards the clowns going around saying all trial dogs lack this that there are no more hard going dogs blah blah blah and clearly and as it has turned out in my experience end up being the 1s with no clue just blindly following the trend , there are plenty of ftch's sitting in lads back yards now that will never see a trial and the opposite is also true ,,

Dawggone

rebok classic wrote: »

ye i agree with you they dont test stamina because the dofs cant keep that up much longer and phase out if they get long runs but most of them would make top shooting dogs but would lose the style and pace and will last the day not all but most there are some very miserable excuses around but they are conditioned differently fed different and kept fit different sprints and marathons im glad you seem to have an open mind that trial dogs do breed good dogs because my animosity is towards the clowns that say all modern trialing spaniels are only good for 20 mins blah blah blah they have no stamina blah blah blah if trails really did simulate a real shooting day it would be fantastic but will never happen it is this that puts me off i could never keep a dog and only hunt it for 30 mins at a time in order keep up the speed and style ,,, there are some very good trial dogs around that given the chance could match anything out there for rough shooting but we will never know likewise we will never know how well the rough shooting dogs would do at trials in my experience the large majority of people bashing trial dogs don't have a clue it has turned out that way for me and i like yourself have had the best dogs come from trial breeding but they wouldn't win a trial unless it consisted of hunting ditches for 4 or 5 hours ive a bitch here with barely an ear left from briars she had all the speed and style in the world when she was younger but hunting for hours on end soon put a stop to that ive just bred from her to another rough shooting dog from trialing lines ive kept back a pup and ive no doubt he could trial but it would mean me keeping his hunting time limited to 30 mins in order for him to keep the style and pace something i will not do doesnt mean he has no stamina as he will just learn to hunt at his own pace in order to last im sure he will hit cover aswell so not all trial breeding is useless in fact most of it is very useful so its best to keep and open mind thats prob a bit all over the place but hope its somewhat clear

I'd be very thankful if you punctuated your posts as its got me cross eyed reading it!!

The way I see it is that field trials are supposed to produce the best of the best. These top dogs are the ones that are supposed to improve the breed. Thing is they are not improving anything and some will say they are damaging the breed. This is very pertinent to spaniels.
The main gripe that the shooting brigade have is stamina, and I agree with them.
It's not the dogs fault, it's the trials fault.
You go to a driven shoot or somewhere heavily stocked with game and run a dog for a few minutes in very light cover. Not testing stamina in any way.
What the shooting fraternity want is a dog that will hit punishing cover from dawn to dusk, even on a day you meet absolutely nothing. Not much to ask is it?

In fairness the Pointers and Setters are tested more as most grouse trials need a dog with a bit of tank in him or he will be found out.
The Scandanavian Pointer and Setter trials do test stamina but then they don't test train-ability. So it's always a trade off of some kind.
British and Irish trialling men need to ask themselves why are they not consistently producing hard-hitting cover dogs with loads of stamina. There is a market for such dogs.
It should not cause such divisiveness.
A good dog is the one that bags the most birds in the least time.... but not on a driven shoot.
The original shooting breeds were created by shooting men with nothing purebred to hand. The shooting breeds of today are a genetic mish mash of each other. The spaniel has suffered from its popularity more than other breeds. Too much money involved.
A return to its roots (trials) may be a good start.

hathcock

To use an analogy,and use the ops logic,we can take a sprint horse that runs in 7 furlong races and turn it into a grand national runner simply by letting it learn to pace itself,how comes horse trainers haven't thought of this?

Kells1

Dawgone hit the nail on the head when he said all the shooting fraternity want is hard hitting cover dogs that will work all day maybe without meeting any game. It seems to be a lot to ask nowadays. A trialler told me recently that certain trial bred lines not all i might add were no good or reluctant to work hard if they were not meeting game on a regular basis. What he was saying was that because trials were nowadays usually full of game many triallers were breeding dogs that were laid back and wouldnt be too hot when there was plenty of game around. These dogs are not very good when theres no game around and drop the head after a while if their not meeting game.The result being that after several generations of this breeding these particular dogs needed to be meeting game every few minutes just to get them going. hope you can understand what im trying to get across. On a personal note im not anti trial dogs but i do believe u need to know what lines make good rough shooting dogs

rebok classic

hathcock wrote: »

To use an analogy,and use the ops logic,we can take a sprint horse that runs in 7 furlong races and turn it into a grand national runner simply by letting it learn to pace itself,how comes horse trainers haven't thought of this?

go back to bed hathcock you havent a clue

rebok classic

Dawggone wrote: »

I'd be very thankful if you punctuated your posts as its got me cross eyed reading it!!

The way I see it is that field trials are supposed to produce the best of the best. These top dogs are the ones that are supposed to improve the breed. Thing is they are not improving anything and some will say they are damaging the breed. This is very pertinent to spaniels.
The main gripe that the shooting brigade have is stamina, and I agree with them.
It's not the dogs fault, it's the trials fault.
You go to a driven shoot or somewhere heavily stocked with game and run a dog for a few minutes in very light cover. Not testing stamina in any way.
What the shooting fraternity want is a dog that will hit punishing cover from dawn to dusk, even on a day you meet absolutely nothing. Not much to ask is it?

In fairness the Pointers and Setters are tested more as most grouse trials need a dog with a bit of tank in him or he will be found out.
The Scandanavian Pointer and Setter trials do test stamina but then they don't test train-ability. So it's always a trade off of some kind.
British and Irish trialling men need to ask themselves why are they not consistently producing hard-hitting cover dogs with loads of stamina. There is a market for such dogs.
It should not cause such divisiveness.
A good dog is the one that bags the most birds in the least time.... but not on a driven shoot.
The original shooting breeds were created by shooting men with nothing purebred to hand. The shooting breeds of today are a genetic mish mash of each other. The spaniel has suffered from its popularity more than other breeds. Too much money involved.
A return to its roots (trials) may be a good start.

look apologies for the punctuation but get over it tis not school here your the second fella to bring that up i agree with you on most things and agree that there are lines that lack stamina and willingness to hit cover but i dont they will produce too many champions and i also agree that there are lines that will thank god someone who can see its not all gone to pot any man complaining about cover at a trial would want to pack up and leave unless his problem is holding the dog back from it . there a complementary full stop on the house the problem is that most lads putting forward this argument dont know what they are looking at and thats not good for anybody there is still a good stock of spaniels in this country both from trialling and shooting back rounds so seek them out share them if you have them breed from them ,,, can a spaniel really stay in cover from dawn until dusk i dont think so ,, a dog that just tips in and out will last most of the day a dog that only goes in on scent will last all day but who wants to hunt over a dog like that you want your dog in cover constantly if you get 4 hours your doin very well

hathcock

rebok classic wrote: »

go back to bed hathcock you havent a clue

Throwaway statements like this don't cut the mustard,try refuting the horse analogy.

rebok classic

hathcock wrote: »

Throwaway statements like this don't cut the mustard,try refuting the horse analogy.

are you still awake go away with your race horses tis spaniels we are on about

hathcock

rebok classic wrote: »

are you still awake go away with your race horses tis spaniels we are on about

The same logic applies,and you are refusing to see the obvious and deal with the issues I have mentioned,and by the way I'm fully awake and fully cognisant,so no more silly talk and deal with it.

allan450

if everything was so black and white.it would mean put the best dog and bitch together and we would all have great dogs.but their are to many variables.All you can do the breed from the best and hope for the best.Either it be trailing/and or rough shooting.

rebok classic

hathcock wrote: »

The same logic applies,and you are refusing to see the obvious and deal with the issues I have mentioned,and by the way I'm fully awake and fully cognisant,so no more silly talk and deal with it.

come back when you know what your talking about hold back your dogs a month then start hunting them for 15 mins at a time with a find flush shot retrieve or 2 in this time see the difference in the intensity of your dogs.
then after a year of this start rough shooting with them for 5 hours at a time and watch the intensity leave as they pace themselves for whats coming, a long hard day not a 15 min sprint adjust diet accordingly come back when you've some experience. i will not waste any more of my precious words on you when it is within clear sight that you are talking through your hole. i can easily pick out the lads commenting on this that have the experience and knowledge to know what they are talking about and you hathcock are not 1. so go away with your race horses

dodderangler

Is a lot of it down to sprinters and most gun dogs becoming more family pets and not hunting and this the hunting streak is disappearing from the breed?
Woman up the road has two gorgeous whp and they've never been hunted. Just house dogs

hathcock

rebok classic wrote: »

come back when you know what your talking about hold back your dogs a month then start hunting them for 15 mins at a time with a find flush shot retrieve or 2 in this time see the difference in the intensity of your dogs.
then after a year of this start rough shooting with them for 5 hours at a time and watch the intensity leave as they pace themselves for whats coming, a long hard day not a 15 min sprint adjust diet accordingly come back when you've some experience. i will not waste any more of my precious words on you when it is within clear sight that you are talking through your hole. i can easily pick out the lads commenting on this that have the experience and knowledge to know what they are talking about and you hathcock are not 1. so go away with your race horses

Precious words......more drivel

rebok classic

hathcock wrote: »

Precious words......more drivel

ya thought so keep your head firmly in the sand there

hathcock

rebok classic wrote: »

ya thought so keep your head firmly in the sand there

You and I aren't going to see eye to eye here,I think it's probably best we leave it at that,no hard feelings on my part anyway,athblian faoi shean agus faoi maishe duit..

Kells1

, can a spaniel really stay in cover from dawn until dusk i dont think so ,, a dog that just tips in and out will last most of the day a dog that only goes in on scent will last all day but who wants to hunt over a dog like that you want your dog in cover constantly if you get 4 hours your doin very well[/quote]

I have to say i agree with this

allan450

Agreed Also

irish setter

I don't have a lot of knowledge of spaniels as I'm a setter man myself but I find this thread interesting. It's basically boils down to the age old question breeding vs feeding. If a dog is bred to hit cover hard and to look good doing it then he Will most likely do just that. But if with experience he knows that he is in for a long day any dog with a brain should adjust. A lot of blame on here for the so called demise of the Springer seems to be put on the trailing man. First of I'm not sure if there is a demise. Maybe there is a little bit of looking back with rose tinted glasses on springers of old or the lack of willingness of the average shooting man to give these new type of Springer time to adjust to a long days shooting. With a young dog training is done in short spurts and when you see your 6 month old dog hitting cover hard from the off who wants to curb that?. But it's totally unrealistic to expect any dog, old type or new to keep hunting the way a dog is expected to hunt in trials for a full day.
Furthermore trialling men just like shooting men, when it comes to breeding and training dogs have differing levels of capabilities. Some are good some not so.
One last point is the trailing man breeds for his sport. I see no mention on here of the failure of the shooting fraternity to breed and maintain the old type shooting Springer.

fitzy_fitzy

Fair point from Irish Setter
Why hasn't the shooting fraternity maintained the old type springer?

fiestaman

Because most lads went and got there bitch serviced by Hattonswood broc & minted Norman Blakney.

hathcock

fiestaman wrote: »

Because most lads went and got there bitch serviced by Hattonswood broc & minted Norman Blakney.

Fair play fiestaman,straight out with the kernel of the problem,no beating about the bush(forgive the pun),there's hardly a pedigree in Ireland that doesn't contain the aforementioned dog or some of his progeny,I call it the celtic tiger breeding programme,everyone and his mother taking their bitch,good or bad, to the latest in vogue ftch.Is it any wonder that there is a real concern among those who care about the breed.

Dawggone

fitzy_fitzy wrote: »

Fair point from Irish Setter
Why hasn't the shooting fraternity maintained the old type springer?

For goodness sake man the trialling community are the GUARDIANS of the breed!!
I'm NOT blaming the trialling men for the demise of the shooting dog.
It's the trials are to blame. Ten minutes on a driven shoot with soft cover isn't going to produce too many Woodcock dogs

It's for the trialling community to lead the way.
The nub of the issue is that the breed standard is in the hands of the English and most of the spaniels in the UK are used for beating on driven shoots.
How many trials are held on Woodcock in punishing cover....none.

I repeat. It's not the trialling men at fault. They compete to win trials so why breed a big lump of a headbanger to be the first home from trials every day?
It's the trials that need to change not the people that compete.

Dawggone

fiestaman wrote: »

Because most lads went and got there bitch serviced by Hattonswood broc & minted Norman Blakney.

LOL. One man and his dog are to blame for the demise of spaniels.
Pure poppycock.
LOL.

hathcock

It's the trials that need to change not the people that compete.[/QUOTE]

How does one change the trials without changing those involved?

dodderangler

Dawggone wrote: »

Pure poppycock.
.

I can bet there's a trials champion dog out there called that

Dawggone

hathcock wrote: »

It's the trials that need to change not the people that compete.

How does one change the trials without changing those involved?[/quote]

The custodians of the breed can change it i.e. The English Springer Club in conjunction with The Kennel Club.

I wouldn't hold my breath though as there is absolutely no appetite for it in the powers that be!

hathcock

Dawggone wrote: »

How does one change the trials without changing those involved?

The custodians of the breed can change it i.e. The English Springer Club in conjunction with The Kennel Club.

I wouldn't hold my breath though as there is absolutely no appetite for it in the powers that be![/QUOTE]

There's the money factor also,up to 400 euro a service,that's not to be sneezed at either.Hard to turn down that kind of money if someone arrives at your door looking for a service,regardless how good or bad the bitch is,

Dawggone

hathcock wrote: »

The custodians of the breed can change it i.e. The English Springer Club in conjunction with The Kennel Club.

I wouldn't hold my breath though as there is absolutely no appetite for it in the powers that be!

There's the money factor also,up to 400 euro a service,that's not to be sneezed at either.Hard to turn down that kind of money if someone arrives at your door looking for a service,regardless how good or bad the bitch is,[/quote]

I stand a stud dog now at €1000 (not an ESS), why would I insult a mans bitch by telling him to p1ss off?

hathcock

Dawggone wrote: »

There's the money factor also,up to 400 euro a service,that's not to be sneezed at either.Hard to turn down that kind of money if someone arrives at your door looking for a service,regardless how good or bad the bitch is,

I stand a stud dog now at €1000 (not an ESS), why would I insult a mans bitch by telling him to p1ss off?[/QUOTE]

Nice money to be sure,and that is the argument that is used to justify any old breeding,it's old but true still...money is the root of all evil.

blackpearl

Have to agree irish setter but not trying to change, the same can be said of red setters hard to find the old type big setter,i have kept this breed myself but it is hard to find bitches or dogs of the same build its all about speed and style now,most of these dogs wont last over a full days hunting.

fiestaman

Dawggone wrote: »

There's the money factor also,up to 400 euro a service,that's not to be sneezed at either.Hard to turn down that kind of money if someone arrives at your door looking for a service,regardless how good or bad the bitch is,

I stand a stud dog now at €1000 (not an ESS), why would I insult a mans bitch by telling him to p1ss off?[/QUOTE]

There you go, mans bitch is no good, breeds from your dog, He has a litter and only one make a good one and 4 are out there been bred again because they have your dogs name behind them. I never said one man was to blame I simply said a lot of lads took their bitches to that dog wheatear they were good or bad.

Dawggone

fiestaman wrote: »

I stand a stud dog now at €1000 (not an ESS), why would I insult a mans bitch by telling him to p1ss off?

There you go, mans bitch is no good, breeds from your dog, He has a litter and only one make a good one and 4 are out there been bred again because they have your dogs name behind them. I never said one man was to blame I simply said a lot of lads took their bitches to that dog wheatear they were good or bad.[/quote]

So?

fiestaman

Dawggone wrote: »

There you go, mans bitch is no good, breeds from your dog, He has a litter and only one make a good one and 4 are out there been bred again because they have your dogs name behind them. I never said one man was to blame I simply said a lot of lads took their bitches to that dog wheatear they were good or bad.

So?[/QUOTE]
Read it again if you don't understand it

thehound

lad i know got a springer 3years ago from friends of his in dublin this dog is massive big dog would go all day dont know if he has papers on not but if he does the job thats all you want

Kells1

How many trials are held on Woodcock in punishing cover....none.

I repeat. It's not the trialling men at fault. They compete to win trials so why breed a big lump of a headbanger to be the first home from trials every day?
It's the trials that need to change not the people that compete.[/quote]


Totally agree with this. Dawgone you hit the nail on the head again