Frankel -v- Sea the Stars

ComplyOrDie

Other threads seam to be derailed by this topic all the time... So now's your chance... Cut loose with you opinion...... But obviously Frankel was better

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

FIVE2_THREE

I'll be the first to hold up my hands to apologize for my role in any derailment that may have taken place in the previous thread but this Frankel VS STS debate is one sided. As I've said the numbers don't lie. I dare anybody to name a Horse with a better body of work/CV than that of Frankel and in case people forgot here it is.

14 FOR 14
CHAMPION AT 2,3, AND 4.
HORSE OF THE YEAR AT 3 AND 4
CHAMPION OLDER HORSE AT 4
WORLD RECORD OF 9 STRAIGHT G1'S IN A ROW DRUG FREE
RETIRED CANFORD CLIFFS
59 G1 RACE WINNERS DEFEATED
24 DIFFERENT G1 HORSES DEFEATED
DEFEATED G1 HORSE FROM Ireland,France ,Germany,Britan and Japan
HIS EVALUATION STUD VALUE IS $100,000,000 THE RICHES EVER FOR ANY STALLION
STUD FEE $150,000 PER COVER, THE RICHES FOR ANY FIRST YEAR STALLION

Horse Best race(s) won
Canford Cliffs Irish 2000 Guineas Gr.1
St James's Palace Stakes Gr.1
Sussex Stakes Gr.1
Lockinge Stakes Gr.1
Queen Anne Stakes Gr.1

Casamento Racing Post Trophy Gr.1

Cirrus Des Aigles Prix Ganay Gr.1 (Twice)
Prix D'Idispahan Gr.1
Coronation Stakes Gr.1
Dubai Sheema Classic Gr.1
Champion Stakes Gr.1

Colour Vision Ascot Gold Cup Gr.1

Dick Turpin Prix Jean Prat Gr.1

Premio Vittorio di Capua Gr.1

Dream Ahead Prix Morny Gr.1
Middle Park Stakes Gr.1
July Cup Gr.1
Sprint Cup Gr.1
Prix de la Foret Gr.1

Excelebration Queen Elizabeth II Stakes Gr.1
Prix du Moulin de Longchamp Gr.1
Prix Jacques le Marois Gr.1

Farhh Lockinge Stakes Gr.1

Grand Prix Boss Asahi Hai Futurity Stakes Gr.1
NHK Mile Cup Gr.1

Helmet Sires Produce Stakes Gr.1
Champagne Stakes Gr.1
Caulfield Guineas Gr.1

Immortal Verse Coronation Stakes Gr.1
Prix Jacques le Marois Gr.1

Master Of Hounds Jebel Hatta Gr.1

Nathaniel King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes Gr.1
Eclipse Stakes Gr.1

Pastorius Grosser Dallmayr-Preis Gr.1
Deutsches Derby Gr.1
Prix Ganay Gr.1

Pathfork National Stakes Gr.1

Planteur Prix Ganay Gr.1

Poet's Voice Queen Elizabeth II Stakes Gr.1

Rio De La Plata Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere Gr.1
Premio Vittorio di Capua Gr.1
Premio Roma GBI Racing Gr.1

Roderic O'Connor Criterium International Gr.1
Irish 2000 Guineas Gr.1

St Nicholas Abbey Breeders' Cup Turf Gr.1
Coronation Cup Gr.1 (three times)
Racing Post Trophy Gr.1
Dubai Sheema Classic Gr.1

Treasure Beach Irish Derby Gr.1

Secretariat Stakes Gr.1
Twice Over Juddmonte International Gr.1
Eclipse Stakes Gr.1
Champion Stakes Gr.1 (twice)

Wootton Bassett Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere Gr.1

Zoffany Phoenix Stakes Gr.1

Dubawi Gold Celebration Mile Gr.2

Premio Loco Ottingen-Rennen Gr.2
Grosse Europa Meile Gr.2
Summer Mile Stakes Gr.2
Park Stakes Gr.2
Celebration Mile Gr.2

Rajsaman Prix du Muguet Gr.2
Prix Daniel Wildenstein Gr.2

Ransom Note Joel Stakes Gr.2

Red Jazz Challenge Stakes Gr.2

Saamidd Champagne Stakes Gr.2

Slim Shadey San Marcos Stakes Gr.2 (twice)
John Henry Turf Championship Stakes Gr.2

Sri Putra York Stakes Gr.2
Prix Guillaume d'Ornano Gr.2

Strong Suit Coventry Stakes Gr.2
Lennox Stakes Gr.2
Challenge Stakes Gr.2

Worthadd Derby Italiano Gr.2

Premio Ribot Gr.2
Premio Carlo Vittadini Gr.2

Broox Prix Arenberg Gr.3

Bullet Train Derby Trial Stakes Gr.3

Genius Beast Classic Trial Gr.3

Klammer Horris Hill Stakes Gr.3

Native Khan Solario Stakes Gr.3

Craven Stakes Gr.3

New Greenfield Acomb Stakes Gr.3

Rerouted Somerville Tattersall Stakes Gr.3

Side Glance Sovereign Stakes Gr.3

Diomed Stakes Gr.3

Windsor Palace Mooresbridge Stakes Gr.3

Fury Hambleton Stakes L.

Gabrial Doncaster Mile Stakes L.

Indomito Sachsen Preis L.

Neebras Thoroughbred Stakes L.

Glor Na Mara Winner, 2nd Phoenix Stakes Gr.1

Rainbow Springs Winner, 3rd Criterium de Pouliches Gr.1

Robin Hood Winner, 3rd Tattersalls Gold Cup Gr.1, Juddmonte Beresford Stakes Gr.2, Ascendant Stakes L.

Happy Today Winner, 2nd Feilden Stakes L.

Picture Editor Winner, 3rd Cocked Hat Stakes L.

Vanguard Dream Winner, 3rd Spring Cup L.
Bonita Star Winner

Castlemorris King Winner

Diamond Geezah Winner

Elrasheed Winner

Eskimo Winner

Lemon Drop Red Winner

Loving Spirit Winner

Man Of God Winner

Shropshire Winner

Breton Star Placed

Dortmund Placed

Maher Placed

FIVE2_THREE

Oh and Frankel is also the Holder of some 5 Cartier racing awards. and the only horse to win the Sussex twice.

tryfix

Frankel for quantity and multi season consistency , STS for quality.

Frankel's greatest win was a 12 1/2l beating of the moderate German horse Indominito. A horse who was subsequently beaten 10l and 10 1/2l by Excelebration. If anyone thinks that a collateral 2l superiority over Excelebration is the best performance ever by a racehorse, they are very wrong!

Or that beating St Nicholas Abbey by 7l ( over a trip he couldn't produce his best at ) is the best form ever is wrong. Danedream beat St Nicholas Abbey 6l on his favoured ground over his favourite trip.

STS with his gears would have chinned Frankel who was a one move horse, so would Dancing Brave who ran faster than Frankel ever did.

Both STS and Dancing Brave could have beaten Frankel despite their being campaigned full tilt whereas Frankel was cosseted.

Frankel in fairness could have produced his performances for another season, quite possibly improving again, something that the others would have been unlikely to be up to.

Frankel's family improve with age or else something else was up, cause his 4yo physique was all muscle.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel for quantity and multi season consistency , STS for quality.

Frankel's greatest win was a 12 1/2l beating of the moderate German horse Indominito. A horse who was subsequently beaten 10l and 10 1/2l by Excelebration. If anyone thinks that a collateral 2l superiority over Excelebration is the best performance ever by a racehorse, they are very wrong!

Or that beating St Nicholas Abbey by 7l ( over a trip he couldn't produce his best at ) is the best form ever is wrong. Danedream beat St Nicholas Abbey 6l on his favoured ground over his favourite trip.

STS with his gears would have chinned Frankel who was a one move horse, so would Dancing Brave who ran faster than Frankel ever did.

Both STS and Dancing Brave could have beaten Frankel despite their being campaigned full tilt whereas Frankel was cosseted.

Frankel in fairness could have produced his performances for another season, quite possibly improving again, something that the others would have been unlikely to be up to.

Frankel's family improve with age or else something else was up, cause his 4yo physique was all muscle.

Ahh, But the question still remains who was the better horse. I don't have access to a time machine so I never predict who would have beaten who. I just let the record and numbers do the talking and in this case Frankel stands heads above STS in every category. He won races by larger margins, defeated a higher caliber of horses and went undefeated over 3 years.

UrbanFret

I don't think frankel ever bettered his guineas run. It will live forever in the memory of those who saw it. I believe he was capable of a Dayjur type sprint performance as well. Sea the stars performance in the arc was astonishing if you take into account how hard he pulled. It takes a superstar to run that free over 1 1/2 miles and still win. In all honesty hard to split them, for what it's worth I think the brave was better than both of them but that may well be me looking back with rose tinted glasses at my misspent youth. . One things certain it's been a pleasure to have been around to see them all.

andyman

Just getting this in here. Civilised debate only please. I really don't want to close this because it will just crop up elsewhere and derail that thread.

As for the debate itself. STS was the better horse, but Frankel achieved more.

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Ahh, But the question still remains who was the better horse. I don't have access to a time machine so I never predict who would have beaten who. I just let the record and numbers do the talking and in this case Frankel stands heads above STS in every category. He won races by larger margins, defeated a higher caliber of horses and went undefeated over 3 years.

Frankel did not beat better horses than Sea The Stars and Sea The Stars beat them further.

Here's how far both Sea The Stars and Frankel beat Twice Over. Except when Frankel beat Twice Over Frankel's pacemaker Bullet Train was only a nk behind.

When Sea The Stars beat Twice Over by 4 1/2l more than Frankel beat the same horse, there were 4 Gp1 winners separating them and one of them the Michael Stoute trained Conduit who was beaten 5 1/2l in that race then won the Championship King George on his next run as well as finishing 4th in the Arc and winning the Breeders Cup Turf by the end of that year.

Frankel only beat a similar King George winner Nathaniel by 4 1/2l.

In that same race Sea The Stars beat the Dual Gp 1 winner and multiple times GP 1 placed and GP2 and GP3 winner in each of his 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th years Juke Box Jury by 15l. Frankel beat the likes of the German trained listed winner Indominito by 12 1/2l, a horse that wouldn't place in an English Group race.

Sea The Star was simply a better horse at 10f than Frankel was at any trip. Frankel got grade inflated for consistency and because of Henry Cecil's popularity.


04Jul09 San 10Gd C1G1 283K 9-7 7/10 (17½L Sea The Stars 8-10) 14/1 Tom Queally OR 119


22Aug12 Yor 10.5GF C1G1 411K 9-5 4/9 (13L Frankel 9-5) 12/1 Ian Mongan OR 118

Frankel achieved more quantity wise, for sure, but what you perhaps don't get about European Racing is that the 3yo season and winning the Classics and beating the older horse is the be all and end all target to demonstrate brilliance.

You see how hard it is to win the US triple Crown, even though there's little enough difference in distance between the races it's an arduous task to be at peak for proper championship races one after another as a 3yo.

The 1,000/2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby/Oaks and Arc are the modern Triple Crown in Europe. To do that treble from your base in Ireland and racing in England, Ireland and France with 6 top drawer Gp1 wins in one season and to finish it in style in the Arc the best race in the world despite meeting trouble in running is far superior to any season Frankel had. There's is no doubt in my mind that Sea The Stars was the superior race horse on ability.

handsfree2

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel did not beat better horses than Sea The Stars and Sea The Stars beat them further.

Here's how far both Sea The Stars and Frankel beat Twice Over. Except when Frankel beat Twice Over Frankel's pacemaker Bullet Train was only a nk behind.

When Sea The Stars beat Twice Over by 4 1/2l more than Frankel beat the same horse, there were 4 Gp1 winners separating them and one of them the Michael Stoute trained Conduit who was beaten 5 1/2l in that race then won the Championship King George on his next run as well as finishing 4th in the Arc and winning the Breeders Cup Turf by the end of that year.

Frankel only beat a similar King George winner Nathaniel by 4 1/2l.

In that same race Sea The Stars beat the Dual Gp 1 winner and multiple times GP 1 placed and GP2 and GP3 winner in each of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th years Juke Box Jury by 15l. Frankel beat the likes of the German trained listed winner Indominito by 12 1/2l, a horse that wouldn't place in an English Group race.

Sea The Star was simply a better horse at 10f than Frankel was at any trip. Frankel got grade inflated for consistency and beacuse of Henry Cecil's popularity.

Frankel achieved more quantity wise, for sure, but what you perhaps don't get about European Racing is that the 3yo season and winning the Classics and beating the older horse is the be all and end all target to demonstrate brilliance.

You see how hard it is to win the US triple Crown, even though there's little enough difference in distance between the races it's an arduous task to be at peak for proper championship races one after another as a 3yo.

The 1,000/2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby/Oaks and Arc are the modern Triple Crown in Europe. To do that treble from your base in Ireland and racing in England, Ireland and France with 6 top drawer Gp1 wins in one season and to finish it in style in the Arc the best race in the world despite meeting trouble in running is far superior to any season Frankel had. There's is no doubt in my mind that Sea The Stars was the superior race horse on ability.

Well said!!

ComplyOrDie

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel did not beat better horses than Sea The Stars and Sea The Stars beat them further.

Here's how far both Sea The Stars and Frankel beat Twice Over. Except when Frankel beat Twice Over Frankel's pacemaker Bullet Train was only a nk behind.

When Sea The Stars beat Twice Over by 4 1/2l more than Frankel beat the same horse, there were 4 Gp1 winners separating them and one of them the Michael Stoute trained Conduit who was beaten 5 1/2l in that race then won the Championship King George on his next run as well as finishing 4th in the Arc and winning the Breeders Cup Turf by the end of that year.

Frankel only beat a similar King George winner Nathaniel by 4 1/2l.

In that same race Sea The Stars beat the Dual Gp 1 winner and multiple times GP 1 placed and GP2 and GP3 winner in each of his 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th years Juke Box Jury by 15l. Frankel beat the likes of the German trained listed winner Indominito by 12 1/2l, a horse that wouldn't place in an English Group race.

Sea The Star was simply a better horse at 10f than Frankel was at any trip. Frankel got grade inflated for consistency and because of Henry Cecil's popularity.


04Jul09 San 10Gd C1G1 283K 9-7 7/10 (17½L Sea The Stars 8-10) 14/1 Tom Queally OR 119


22Aug12 Yor 10.5GF C1G1 411K 9-5 4/9 (13L Frankel 9-5) 12/1 Ian Mongan OR 118

Frankel achieved more quantity wise, for sure, but what you perhaps don't get about European Racing is that the 3yo season and winning the Classics and beating the older horse is the be all and end all target to demonstrate brilliance.

You see how hard it is to win the US triple Crown, even though there's little enough difference in distance between the races it's an arduous task to be at peak for proper championship races one after another as a 3yo.

The 1,000/2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby/Oaks and Arc are the modern Triple Crown in Europe. To do that treble from your base in Ireland and racing in England, Ireland and France with 6 top drawer Gp1 wins in one season and to finish it in style in the Arc the best race in the world despite meeting trouble in running is far superior to any season Frankel had. There's is no doubt in my mind that Sea The Stars was the superior race horse on ability.

Frankel won his maiden first time out STS did not (Frankel did not beat a nobody in his maiden he beat Nathaniel (A later G1 winner), where as STS was beaten by a horse who done virtually nothing afterwards)

The most STS every won by was 2.5L, where as Frankel won by Less that 2.5 on 4 of his 14 Victories (and most were by siginificantly higer margins), in fact 7 G1 wins by a margin over 2.5L and lets face it in most of those the whip wasnt even used.

The Triple Crown is the 2,000 Guineas – Derby – St Leger, and making up a title of modern day is ....


Ohhhhhh and what do the offical ratings say (The experts are afterall experts).

ComplyOrDie

Twice over gave STS 11lb that day, Franel carried level weights

tryfix

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

Frankel won his maiden first time out STS did not (Frankel did not beat a nobody in his maiden he beat Nathaniel (A later G1 winner), where as STS was beaten by a horse who done virtually nothing afterwards)

The most STS every won by was 2.5L, where as Frankel won by Less that 2.5 on 4 of his 14 Victories (and most were by siginificantly higer margins), in fact 7 G1 wins by a margin over 2.5L and lets face it in most of those the whip wasnt even used.

The Triple Crown is the 2,000 Guineas – Derby – St Leger, and making up a title of modern day is ....

The maiden is grasping at straws, a gentle introduction is exactly that, a way to educate a horse for the future and keep it sweet.

Frankel was a vastly superior 2yo to STS on the track. No question about it, but STS was a far better 3yo in his classic season than Frankel was.

The Greats win The Great Races, they don't avoid The Great Races, they run in them over a range of distances throughout the year and beat all comers throughout the Classic season demonstrating the Class and soundness that says they were no flat track bullies, they were invincible no matter what the competition.

That's why I used the modern Equivalent of a Triple Crown as a demonstration of the ultimate challenge for a Classic Horse. Prove yourself over a Mile in May against the precocious milers, then beat the best mile and a half horses in The Epsom Derby, then rattling off 3 stonking GP1 wins over 10f in a brilliant Eclipse win, a Juddmonte and an Irish Champion stakes topped off by winning The Greatest Race in the World against all ages and all comers and overcoming adversity in the process. That's what the likes of Zarkava and Treve did in their French filly ways except they did all on home turf.

The wonderful Frankel, a truly fabulous horse without doubt and brilliantly precocious 2yo in The Royal Lodge did not have the Ability to go through a Classic season of taking on all comers over a variety of distances and in different countries.

Frankel simply wasn't tough enough a horse to do what Sea The Stars did in his Classic season, Frankel simply wasn't physically able to do what Sea The Stars did in his Classic season.

tryfix

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

Frankel won his maiden first time out STS did not (Frankel did not beat a nobody in his maiden he beat Nathaniel (A later G1 winner), where as STS was beaten by a horse who done virtually nothing afterwards)

The most STS every won by was 2.5L, where as Frankel won by Less that 2.5 on 4 of his 14 Victories (and most were by siginificantly higer margins), in fact 7 G1 wins by a margin over 2.5L and lets face it in most of those the whip wasnt even used.

The Triple Crown is the 2,000 Guineas – Derby – St Leger, and making up a title of modern day is ....


Ohhhhhh and what do the offical ratings say (The experts are afterall experts).

I'll get back to you in a few days over the ratings with a comprehensive post which will hopefully be as unbiased as I can make it.

For now I've presents and Turkeys to be shopped for.:)

kfallon

Sea The Stars every day of the week! Won a Guineas and Juddmonte in a quicker time than Frankel, didn't need a 4yo career as he did it all at 3. Won G1's over 8, 10 & 12f. Won the Derby and The Guineas. Frankel wasn't ready to race over further than a mile at 3, STS was!

I always compared them as such, if you were in school with both horses Frankel would have been the swot up the top of the class getting an A+ in every exam but STS would have comfortably passed every exam doing the bare minimum with no study and would have been out the back of the bike sheds smoking away like a trooper and fingering birds! You know which one you'd prefer to associate with

STS is the greatest horse I've ever seen and I doubt I will see another like him in my lifetime!

klairondavis

tryfix wrote: »

The Greats win The Great Races, they don't avoid The Great Races, they run in them over a range of distances throughout the year and beat all comers throughout the Classic season demonstrating the Class and soundness that says they were no flat track bullies, they were invincible no matter what the competition.

+1

Frankel was a truly spectacular racehorse but there was a fragility about him as evidenced by the way he was campaigned. Sea The Stars on the other hand showed a bombproof temperament and robust constitution throughout his 3yo season. He showed it over a range of trips, racecourses and across three countries. Frankel may be rated higher but I think Sea The Stars will be more fondly remembered in the fullness of time. People remember the great races, not the handicapper's assessment of a horse's form. Unfortunately for Frankel his campaign was much more conservative than Sea The Stars and their respective legacies will probably reflect that.

I said

STS did what any champion has to do.
Proved himself from a mile to mile and a half against the best time and again from May till October.
I don't doubt frankel for one second but I always got the impression the unbeaten record was more important than the races he ran and won in.Had he even ran once and won over a mile and a half then the arguments could really start.

ComplyOrDie

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/'He+went+at+a+Group+1+sprinter's+pace+for+the+first+five+furlongs'...-a0255143277

Shemale

Frankel was a very good horse but he certainly was not the greatest horse of all time and he certainly is not better than Sea The Stars.

If Frankel was as good as the hype around him suggests he would have taken on Black Caviar after she was flown half way around the World to race him, Frankels connections ducked her. Frankel was kept within a whiff of his box, kept in his comfort zone.

Frankel was trained by a great man and a Sir who sadly was being ravaged by cancer, Frankels racing manager was a Lord and he was owned by a Prince all very influencial people all of these factors and the media hype led to his ridiculous over rating.

Horses that raced against Frankel were being over assessed to boost Frankels rating. The handicapper said he could only assess the idling in front nature of Sea The Stars on what he did yet he was only too happy to rate Frankels potential.

Frankel ran as a 4 year old whereas STS had it all done at 3, Oxx said STS stuck on another 85kgs from October to April after he retired so there is no doubt he would have been even better at 4.

Sea The Stars was kept going all season, he won the Coral Eclipse in the fastest time since they started keeping times in 1960.

He won the Guineas in a quicker time than Frankel and that was after coming back from a virus.

People saying he didn't win his maiden are really clutching for a start John Oxx doesn't have his horses 100% for maidens and it's more about the experience, secondly the door got shut in his face as he went to make his move towards the end of the race and thirdly Kinane is on record blaming himself.

523, even the massive operation that you love kept throwing their three best at the time at STS and he swotted them away with disdain and their attempt at underhand tactics in the Juddmont couldn't stop him.

STS took on all comers from Europe at different distances in different countries and smashed them all.

Frankel stayed near home had a lovely time running against the same horses from 7f - 10f, Sea The Stars he certainly was not.

kenmccarthy

No doubt the two best horses I've ever seen...........
Had the great pleasure of being at the prix in 2009........ best day ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two legends of racing but STS with Mick piloting......does it get any better??????

kfallon

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/'He+went+at+a+Group+1+sprinter's+pace+for+the+first+five+furlongs'...-a0255143277

Yet STS Guineas win was a quicker time over all!

ronsh2000

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/'He+went+at+a+Group+1+sprinter's+pace+for+the+first+five+furlongs'...-a0255143277

People seem to be amazed that Frankel could go at a sprinter's pace, but most top class milers could. Chief Singer walloped top sprinters Committed, Never So Bold and Habibti at their own game in the July Cup, having previously won the St James Palace Stakes over a mile by 8 lengths, and he in turn had been beaten easily by El Gran Senor in the Guineas. Thatch, who won the St James Palace Stakes by an amazing 15 lengths, also won the July Cup. Both horses went on to win the Sussex Stakes, back over a mile, after their G1 July Cup sprint victories.

Peintre Celebre

Someone else used the argument that Sea the Stars was over rated because he was beaten first time out. That is a moronic way of thinking to put it extremely mildly.

People forget that Frankel and Sea the Stars earned the same rating after their three year old seasons.

It's a testament to Sea the Stars' ability that he was precocious enough to win a Guineas, this is the same horse who was by an Arc winner AS A FOUR YEAR OLD, half brother to a Derby winner. Frankel's Guineas was extremely impressive visually, visually being the crucial world. Who can remember the top class horses in behind. Dubawi Gold, Native Khan, Slim Shady in fourth if I remember.

diomed

I was more impressed with Sea The Stars.
What clouded my judgement of Frankel was the incessant publicity and sympathy for Henry Cecil. I find it hard to separate the horse from the hype. I think Timeform erred when they awarded him the very high rating.

Back when I was interested I noticed that Frankel only beat standard time three times which was surprising. He never beat standard time by a second.
Just now I looked up Sea The Stars times. He also beat standard time only three times, but by bigger margins.
You might say STS was running over longer so it is easier to beat standard. It is still standard. Of course ground and competition affects final times.

Frankel only ran in England, mostly at the same distances, against the same horses. I think Frankel is to racing what David Beckham is to soccer.

He might produce a few good horses as a sire. His stud fee is too high for a freshman sire. His starting fee is a fee for a proven Group 1 / Classic sire.

diomed

Off, off, off topic, but I haven't seen this film before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHi8SZFwzw

Nulty

diomed wrote: »

Off, off, off topic, but I haven't seen this film before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHi8SZFwzw

Is that Paul carberry at 3.02

FIVE2_THREE

Another advantage Frankel has over STS is his record over wet ground. STS was notoriously withdrawn from the Irish Derby because of rain while Frankel ran in his debut in a rain soaked Newmarket defeating two future G1 performers and in his last race he outstayed CDA a horse who has one of the greatest wet ground CV's in the history of racing.

Shemale

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/'He+went+at+a+Group+1+sprinter's+pace+for+the+first+five+furlongs'...-a0255143277

"considering the headwind and that he had no company to make him go even faster it was a staggering display of raw speed and power. "

An unbiased article written by someone who understands racing and physics. Imagine for a second we have Frankel with STS upsides sprinting as one goes quicker the other goes quicker as they have company, very soon both would break the sound barrier then the light barrier.

Shemale

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Another advantage Frankel has over STS is his record over wet ground. STS was notoriously withdrawn from the Irish Derby because of rain while Frankel ran in his debut in a rain soaked Newmarket defeating two future G1 performers and in his last race he outstayed CDA a horse who has one of the greatest wet ground CV's in the history of racing.

Ah yes versatile, his first race was soft he just beat Nathaniel, his last race after a 2 month break he only beat Nathaniel who was running off 126 yet Frankel got 140, lol what a fraud of a horse.

An extended Frankel beat an injured and hanging Canford Cliffs by 5L in CC last race, CC was one of the few correctly rated horses he beat and for all his running all the way to the line he only beat an injured and hanging 127 horse 5 lengths. 140+ my balls.

FIVE2_THREE

Shemale wrote: »

Ah yes versatile, his first race was soft he just beat Nathaniel, his last race after a 2 month break he only beat Nathaniel who was running off 126 yet Frankel got 140, lol what a fraud of a horse.

An extended Frankel beat an injured and hanging Canford Cliffs by 5L in CC last race, CC was one of the few correctly rated horses he beat and for all his running all the way to the line he only beat an injured and hanging 127 horse 5 lengths. 140+ my balls.

24 different horses accounting for 59 G1 wins. thats better competition than STS faced.

diomed

kfallon wrote: »

Yet STS Guineas win was a quicker time over all!

Interesting.

2000 Guineas 8f
Sea The Stars ............ 1:35.88 gd/fm
Frankel ..................... 1:37.30 gd/fm

International 10.5f
Sea The Stars ............ 2:5.29 gd/fm
Frankel ..................... 2:6.59 gd/fm