Frankel -v- Sea the Stars

ComplyOrDie

Other threads seam to be derailed by this topic all the time... So now's your chance... Cut loose with you opinion...... But obviously Frankel was better

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

FIVE2_THREE

I'll be the first to hold up my hands to apologize for my role in any derailment that may have taken place in the previous thread but this Frankel VS STS debate is one sided. As I've said the numbers don't lie. I dare anybody to name a Horse with a better body of work/CV than that of Frankel and in case people forgot here it is.

14 FOR 14
CHAMPION AT 2,3, AND 4.
HORSE OF THE YEAR AT 3 AND 4
CHAMPION OLDER HORSE AT 4
WORLD RECORD OF 9 STRAIGHT G1'S IN A ROW DRUG FREE
RETIRED CANFORD CLIFFS
59 G1 RACE WINNERS DEFEATED
24 DIFFERENT G1 HORSES DEFEATED
DEFEATED G1 HORSE FROM Ireland,France ,Germany,Britan and Japan
HIS EVALUATION STUD VALUE IS $100,000,000 THE RICHES EVER FOR ANY STALLION
STUD FEE $150,000 PER COVER, THE RICHES FOR ANY FIRST YEAR STALLION

Horse Best race(s) won
Canford Cliffs Irish 2000 Guineas Gr.1
St James's Palace Stakes Gr.1
Sussex Stakes Gr.1
Lockinge Stakes Gr.1
Queen Anne Stakes Gr.1

Casamento Racing Post Trophy Gr.1

Cirrus Des Aigles Prix Ganay Gr.1 (Twice)
Prix D'Idispahan Gr.1
Coronation Stakes Gr.1
Dubai Sheema Classic Gr.1
Champion Stakes Gr.1

Colour Vision Ascot Gold Cup Gr.1

Dick Turpin Prix Jean Prat Gr.1

Premio Vittorio di Capua Gr.1

Dream Ahead Prix Morny Gr.1
Middle Park Stakes Gr.1
July Cup Gr.1
Sprint Cup Gr.1
Prix de la Foret Gr.1

Excelebration Queen Elizabeth II Stakes Gr.1
Prix du Moulin de Longchamp Gr.1
Prix Jacques le Marois Gr.1

Farhh Lockinge Stakes Gr.1

Grand Prix Boss Asahi Hai Futurity Stakes Gr.1
NHK Mile Cup Gr.1

Helmet Sires Produce Stakes Gr.1
Champagne Stakes Gr.1
Caulfield Guineas Gr.1

Immortal Verse Coronation Stakes Gr.1
Prix Jacques le Marois Gr.1

Master Of Hounds Jebel Hatta Gr.1

Nathaniel King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes Gr.1
Eclipse Stakes Gr.1

Pastorius Grosser Dallmayr-Preis Gr.1
Deutsches Derby Gr.1
Prix Ganay Gr.1

Pathfork National Stakes Gr.1

Planteur Prix Ganay Gr.1

Poet's Voice Queen Elizabeth II Stakes Gr.1

Rio De La Plata Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere Gr.1
Premio Vittorio di Capua Gr.1
Premio Roma GBI Racing Gr.1

Roderic O'Connor Criterium International Gr.1
Irish 2000 Guineas Gr.1

St Nicholas Abbey Breeders' Cup Turf Gr.1
Coronation Cup Gr.1 (three times)
Racing Post Trophy Gr.1
Dubai Sheema Classic Gr.1

Treasure Beach Irish Derby Gr.1

Secretariat Stakes Gr.1
Twice Over Juddmonte International Gr.1
Eclipse Stakes Gr.1
Champion Stakes Gr.1 (twice)

Wootton Bassett Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere Gr.1

Zoffany Phoenix Stakes Gr.1

Dubawi Gold Celebration Mile Gr.2

Premio Loco Ottingen-Rennen Gr.2
Grosse Europa Meile Gr.2
Summer Mile Stakes Gr.2
Park Stakes Gr.2
Celebration Mile Gr.2

Rajsaman Prix du Muguet Gr.2
Prix Daniel Wildenstein Gr.2

Ransom Note Joel Stakes Gr.2

Red Jazz Challenge Stakes Gr.2

Saamidd Champagne Stakes Gr.2

Slim Shadey San Marcos Stakes Gr.2 (twice)
John Henry Turf Championship Stakes Gr.2

Sri Putra York Stakes Gr.2
Prix Guillaume d'Ornano Gr.2

Strong Suit Coventry Stakes Gr.2
Lennox Stakes Gr.2
Challenge Stakes Gr.2

Worthadd Derby Italiano Gr.2

Premio Ribot Gr.2
Premio Carlo Vittadini Gr.2

Broox Prix Arenberg Gr.3

Bullet Train Derby Trial Stakes Gr.3

Genius Beast Classic Trial Gr.3

Klammer Horris Hill Stakes Gr.3

Native Khan Solario Stakes Gr.3

Craven Stakes Gr.3

New Greenfield Acomb Stakes Gr.3

Rerouted Somerville Tattersall Stakes Gr.3

Side Glance Sovereign Stakes Gr.3

Diomed Stakes Gr.3

Windsor Palace Mooresbridge Stakes Gr.3

Fury Hambleton Stakes L.

Gabrial Doncaster Mile Stakes L.

Indomito Sachsen Preis L.

Neebras Thoroughbred Stakes L.

Glor Na Mara Winner, 2nd Phoenix Stakes Gr.1

Rainbow Springs Winner, 3rd Criterium de Pouliches Gr.1

Robin Hood Winner, 3rd Tattersalls Gold Cup Gr.1, Juddmonte Beresford Stakes Gr.2, Ascendant Stakes L.

Happy Today Winner, 2nd Feilden Stakes L.

Picture Editor Winner, 3rd Cocked Hat Stakes L.

Vanguard Dream Winner, 3rd Spring Cup L.
Bonita Star Winner

Castlemorris King Winner

Diamond Geezah Winner

Elrasheed Winner

Eskimo Winner

Lemon Drop Red Winner

Loving Spirit Winner

Man Of God Winner

Shropshire Winner

Breton Star Placed

Dortmund Placed

Maher Placed

FIVE2_THREE

Oh and Frankel is also the Holder of some 5 Cartier racing awards. and the only horse to win the Sussex twice.

tryfix

Frankel for quantity and multi season consistency , STS for quality.

Frankel's greatest win was a 12 1/2l beating of the moderate German horse Indominito. A horse who was subsequently beaten 10l and 10 1/2l by Excelebration. If anyone thinks that a collateral 2l superiority over Excelebration is the best performance ever by a racehorse, they are very wrong!

Or that beating St Nicholas Abbey by 7l ( over a trip he couldn't produce his best at ) is the best form ever is wrong. Danedream beat St Nicholas Abbey 6l on his favoured ground over his favourite trip.

STS with his gears would have chinned Frankel who was a one move horse, so would Dancing Brave who ran faster than Frankel ever did.

Both STS and Dancing Brave could have beaten Frankel despite their being campaigned full tilt whereas Frankel was cosseted.

Frankel in fairness could have produced his performances for another season, quite possibly improving again, something that the others would have been unlikely to be up to.

Frankel's family improve with age or else something else was up, cause his 4yo physique was all muscle.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel for quantity and multi season consistency , STS for quality.

Frankel's greatest win was a 12 1/2l beating of the moderate German horse Indominito. A horse who was subsequently beaten 10l and 10 1/2l by Excelebration. If anyone thinks that a collateral 2l superiority over Excelebration is the best performance ever by a racehorse, they are very wrong!

Or that beating St Nicholas Abbey by 7l ( over a trip he couldn't produce his best at ) is the best form ever is wrong. Danedream beat St Nicholas Abbey 6l on his favoured ground over his favourite trip.

STS with his gears would have chinned Frankel who was a one move horse, so would Dancing Brave who ran faster than Frankel ever did.

Both STS and Dancing Brave could have beaten Frankel despite their being campaigned full tilt whereas Frankel was cosseted.

Frankel in fairness could have produced his performances for another season, quite possibly improving again, something that the others would have been unlikely to be up to.

Frankel's family improve with age or else something else was up, cause his 4yo physique was all muscle.

Ahh, But the question still remains who was the better horse. I don't have access to a time machine so I never predict who would have beaten who. I just let the record and numbers do the talking and in this case Frankel stands heads above STS in every category. He won races by larger margins, defeated a higher caliber of horses and went undefeated over 3 years.

UrbanFret

I don't think frankel ever bettered his guineas run. It will live forever in the memory of those who saw it. I believe he was capable of a Dayjur type sprint performance as well. Sea the stars performance in the arc was astonishing if you take into account how hard he pulled. It takes a superstar to run that free over 1 1/2 miles and still win. In all honesty hard to split them, for what it's worth I think the brave was better than both of them but that may well be me looking back with rose tinted glasses at my misspent youth. . One things certain it's been a pleasure to have been around to see them all.

andyman

Just getting this in here. Civilised debate only please. I really don't want to close this because it will just crop up elsewhere and derail that thread.

As for the debate itself. STS was the better horse, but Frankel achieved more.

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Ahh, But the question still remains who was the better horse. I don't have access to a time machine so I never predict who would have beaten who. I just let the record and numbers do the talking and in this case Frankel stands heads above STS in every category. He won races by larger margins, defeated a higher caliber of horses and went undefeated over 3 years.

Frankel did not beat better horses than Sea The Stars and Sea The Stars beat them further.

Here's how far both Sea The Stars and Frankel beat Twice Over. Except when Frankel beat Twice Over Frankel's pacemaker Bullet Train was only a nk behind.

When Sea The Stars beat Twice Over by 4 1/2l more than Frankel beat the same horse, there were 4 Gp1 winners separating them and one of them the Michael Stoute trained Conduit who was beaten 5 1/2l in that race then won the Championship King George on his next run as well as finishing 4th in the Arc and winning the Breeders Cup Turf by the end of that year.

Frankel only beat a similar King George winner Nathaniel by 4 1/2l.

In that same race Sea The Stars beat the Dual Gp 1 winner and multiple times GP 1 placed and GP2 and GP3 winner in each of his 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th years Juke Box Jury by 15l. Frankel beat the likes of the German trained listed winner Indominito by 12 1/2l, a horse that wouldn't place in an English Group race.

Sea The Star was simply a better horse at 10f than Frankel was at any trip. Frankel got grade inflated for consistency and because of Henry Cecil's popularity.


04Jul09 San 10Gd C1G1 283K 9-7 7/10 (17½L Sea The Stars 8-10) 14/1 Tom Queally OR 119


22Aug12 Yor 10.5GF C1G1 411K 9-5 4/9 (13L Frankel 9-5) 12/1 Ian Mongan OR 118

Frankel achieved more quantity wise, for sure, but what you perhaps don't get about European Racing is that the 3yo season and winning the Classics and beating the older horse is the be all and end all target to demonstrate brilliance.

You see how hard it is to win the US triple Crown, even though there's little enough difference in distance between the races it's an arduous task to be at peak for proper championship races one after another as a 3yo.

The 1,000/2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby/Oaks and Arc are the modern Triple Crown in Europe. To do that treble from your base in Ireland and racing in England, Ireland and France with 6 top drawer Gp1 wins in one season and to finish it in style in the Arc the best race in the world despite meeting trouble in running is far superior to any season Frankel had. There's is no doubt in my mind that Sea The Stars was the superior race horse on ability.

handsfree2

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel did not beat better horses than Sea The Stars and Sea The Stars beat them further.

Here's how far both Sea The Stars and Frankel beat Twice Over. Except when Frankel beat Twice Over Frankel's pacemaker Bullet Train was only a nk behind.

When Sea The Stars beat Twice Over by 4 1/2l more than Frankel beat the same horse, there were 4 Gp1 winners separating them and one of them the Michael Stoute trained Conduit who was beaten 5 1/2l in that race then won the Championship King George on his next run as well as finishing 4th in the Arc and winning the Breeders Cup Turf by the end of that year.

Frankel only beat a similar King George winner Nathaniel by 4 1/2l.

In that same race Sea The Stars beat the Dual Gp 1 winner and multiple times GP 1 placed and GP2 and GP3 winner in each of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th years Juke Box Jury by 15l. Frankel beat the likes of the German trained listed winner Indominito by 12 1/2l, a horse that wouldn't place in an English Group race.

Sea The Star was simply a better horse at 10f than Frankel was at any trip. Frankel got grade inflated for consistency and beacuse of Henry Cecil's popularity.

Frankel achieved more quantity wise, for sure, but what you perhaps don't get about European Racing is that the 3yo season and winning the Classics and beating the older horse is the be all and end all target to demonstrate brilliance.

You see how hard it is to win the US triple Crown, even though there's little enough difference in distance between the races it's an arduous task to be at peak for proper championship races one after another as a 3yo.

The 1,000/2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby/Oaks and Arc are the modern Triple Crown in Europe. To do that treble from your base in Ireland and racing in England, Ireland and France with 6 top drawer Gp1 wins in one season and to finish it in style in the Arc the best race in the world despite meeting trouble in running is far superior to any season Frankel had. There's is no doubt in my mind that Sea The Stars was the superior race horse on ability.

Well said!!

ComplyOrDie

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel did not beat better horses than Sea The Stars and Sea The Stars beat them further.

Here's how far both Sea The Stars and Frankel beat Twice Over. Except when Frankel beat Twice Over Frankel's pacemaker Bullet Train was only a nk behind.

When Sea The Stars beat Twice Over by 4 1/2l more than Frankel beat the same horse, there were 4 Gp1 winners separating them and one of them the Michael Stoute trained Conduit who was beaten 5 1/2l in that race then won the Championship King George on his next run as well as finishing 4th in the Arc and winning the Breeders Cup Turf by the end of that year.

Frankel only beat a similar King George winner Nathaniel by 4 1/2l.

In that same race Sea The Stars beat the Dual Gp 1 winner and multiple times GP 1 placed and GP2 and GP3 winner in each of his 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th years Juke Box Jury by 15l. Frankel beat the likes of the German trained listed winner Indominito by 12 1/2l, a horse that wouldn't place in an English Group race.

Sea The Star was simply a better horse at 10f than Frankel was at any trip. Frankel got grade inflated for consistency and because of Henry Cecil's popularity.


04Jul09 San 10Gd C1G1 283K 9-7 7/10 (17½L Sea The Stars 8-10) 14/1 Tom Queally OR 119


22Aug12 Yor 10.5GF C1G1 411K 9-5 4/9 (13L Frankel 9-5) 12/1 Ian Mongan OR 118

Frankel achieved more quantity wise, for sure, but what you perhaps don't get about European Racing is that the 3yo season and winning the Classics and beating the older horse is the be all and end all target to demonstrate brilliance.

You see how hard it is to win the US triple Crown, even though there's little enough difference in distance between the races it's an arduous task to be at peak for proper championship races one after another as a 3yo.

The 1,000/2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby/Oaks and Arc are the modern Triple Crown in Europe. To do that treble from your base in Ireland and racing in England, Ireland and France with 6 top drawer Gp1 wins in one season and to finish it in style in the Arc the best race in the world despite meeting trouble in running is far superior to any season Frankel had. There's is no doubt in my mind that Sea The Stars was the superior race horse on ability.

Frankel won his maiden first time out STS did not (Frankel did not beat a nobody in his maiden he beat Nathaniel (A later G1 winner), where as STS was beaten by a horse who done virtually nothing afterwards)

The most STS every won by was 2.5L, where as Frankel won by Less that 2.5 on 4 of his 14 Victories (and most were by siginificantly higer margins), in fact 7 G1 wins by a margin over 2.5L and lets face it in most of those the whip wasnt even used.

The Triple Crown is the 2,000 Guineas – Derby – St Leger, and making up a title of modern day is ....


Ohhhhhh and what do the offical ratings say (The experts are afterall experts).

ComplyOrDie

Twice over gave STS 11lb that day, Franel carried level weights

tryfix

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

Frankel won his maiden first time out STS did not (Frankel did not beat a nobody in his maiden he beat Nathaniel (A later G1 winner), where as STS was beaten by a horse who done virtually nothing afterwards)

The most STS every won by was 2.5L, where as Frankel won by Less that 2.5 on 4 of his 14 Victories (and most were by siginificantly higer margins), in fact 7 G1 wins by a margin over 2.5L and lets face it in most of those the whip wasnt even used.

The Triple Crown is the 2,000 Guineas – Derby – St Leger, and making up a title of modern day is ....

The maiden is grasping at straws, a gentle introduction is exactly that, a way to educate a horse for the future and keep it sweet.

Frankel was a vastly superior 2yo to STS on the track. No question about it, but STS was a far better 3yo in his classic season than Frankel was.

The Greats win The Great Races, they don't avoid The Great Races, they run in them over a range of distances throughout the year and beat all comers throughout the Classic season demonstrating the Class and soundness that says they were no flat track bullies, they were invincible no matter what the competition.

That's why I used the modern Equivalent of a Triple Crown as a demonstration of the ultimate challenge for a Classic Horse. Prove yourself over a Mile in May against the precocious milers, then beat the best mile and a half horses in The Epsom Derby, then rattling off 3 stonking GP1 wins over 10f in a brilliant Eclipse win, a Juddmonte and an Irish Champion stakes topped off by winning The Greatest Race in the World against all ages and all comers and overcoming adversity in the process. That's what the likes of Zarkava and Treve did in their French filly ways except they did all on home turf.

The wonderful Frankel, a truly fabulous horse without doubt and brilliantly precocious 2yo in The Royal Lodge did not have the Ability to go through a Classic season of taking on all comers over a variety of distances and in different countries.

Frankel simply wasn't tough enough a horse to do what Sea The Stars did in his Classic season, Frankel simply wasn't physically able to do what Sea The Stars did in his Classic season.

tryfix

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

Frankel won his maiden first time out STS did not (Frankel did not beat a nobody in his maiden he beat Nathaniel (A later G1 winner), where as STS was beaten by a horse who done virtually nothing afterwards)

The most STS every won by was 2.5L, where as Frankel won by Less that 2.5 on 4 of his 14 Victories (and most were by siginificantly higer margins), in fact 7 G1 wins by a margin over 2.5L and lets face it in most of those the whip wasnt even used.

The Triple Crown is the 2,000 Guineas – Derby – St Leger, and making up a title of modern day is ....


Ohhhhhh and what do the offical ratings say (The experts are afterall experts).

I'll get back to you in a few days over the ratings with a comprehensive post which will hopefully be as unbiased as I can make it.

For now I've presents and Turkeys to be shopped for.:)

kfallon

Sea The Stars every day of the week! Won a Guineas and Juddmonte in a quicker time than Frankel, didn't need a 4yo career as he did it all at 3. Won G1's over 8, 10 & 12f. Won the Derby and The Guineas. Frankel wasn't ready to race over further than a mile at 3, STS was!

I always compared them as such, if you were in school with both horses Frankel would have been the swot up the top of the class getting an A+ in every exam but STS would have comfortably passed every exam doing the bare minimum with no study and would have been out the back of the bike sheds smoking away like a trooper and fingering birds! You know which one you'd prefer to associate with

STS is the greatest horse I've ever seen and I doubt I will see another like him in my lifetime!

klairondavis

tryfix wrote: »

The Greats win The Great Races, they don't avoid The Great Races, they run in them over a range of distances throughout the year and beat all comers throughout the Classic season demonstrating the Class and soundness that says they were no flat track bullies, they were invincible no matter what the competition.

+1

Frankel was a truly spectacular racehorse but there was a fragility about him as evidenced by the way he was campaigned. Sea The Stars on the other hand showed a bombproof temperament and robust constitution throughout his 3yo season. He showed it over a range of trips, racecourses and across three countries. Frankel may be rated higher but I think Sea The Stars will be more fondly remembered in the fullness of time. People remember the great races, not the handicapper's assessment of a horse's form. Unfortunately for Frankel his campaign was much more conservative than Sea The Stars and their respective legacies will probably reflect that.

I said

STS did what any champion has to do.
Proved himself from a mile to mile and a half against the best time and again from May till October.
I don't doubt frankel for one second but I always got the impression the unbeaten record was more important than the races he ran and won in.Had he even ran once and won over a mile and a half then the arguments could really start.

ComplyOrDie

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/'He+went+at+a+Group+1+sprinter's+pace+for+the+first+five+furlongs'...-a0255143277

Shemale

Frankel was a very good horse but he certainly was not the greatest horse of all time and he certainly is not better than Sea The Stars.

If Frankel was as good as the hype around him suggests he would have taken on Black Caviar after she was flown half way around the World to race him, Frankels connections ducked her. Frankel was kept within a whiff of his box, kept in his comfort zone.

Frankel was trained by a great man and a Sir who sadly was being ravaged by cancer, Frankels racing manager was a Lord and he was owned by a Prince all very influencial people all of these factors and the media hype led to his ridiculous over rating.

Horses that raced against Frankel were being over assessed to boost Frankels rating. The handicapper said he could only assess the idling in front nature of Sea The Stars on what he did yet he was only too happy to rate Frankels potential.

Frankel ran as a 4 year old whereas STS had it all done at 3, Oxx said STS stuck on another 85kgs from October to April after he retired so there is no doubt he would have been even better at 4.

Sea The Stars was kept going all season, he won the Coral Eclipse in the fastest time since they started keeping times in 1960.

He won the Guineas in a quicker time than Frankel and that was after coming back from a virus.

People saying he didn't win his maiden are really clutching for a start John Oxx doesn't have his horses 100% for maidens and it's more about the experience, secondly the door got shut in his face as he went to make his move towards the end of the race and thirdly Kinane is on record blaming himself.

523, even the massive operation that you love kept throwing their three best at the time at STS and he swotted them away with disdain and their attempt at underhand tactics in the Juddmont couldn't stop him.

STS took on all comers from Europe at different distances in different countries and smashed them all.

Frankel stayed near home had a lovely time running against the same horses from 7f - 10f, Sea The Stars he certainly was not.

kenmccarthy

No doubt the two best horses I've ever seen...........
Had the great pleasure of being at the prix in 2009........ best day ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two legends of racing but STS with Mick piloting......does it get any better??????

kfallon

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/'He+went+at+a+Group+1+sprinter's+pace+for+the+first+five+furlongs'...-a0255143277

Yet STS Guineas win was a quicker time over all!

ronsh2000

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/'He+went+at+a+Group+1+sprinter's+pace+for+the+first+five+furlongs'...-a0255143277

People seem to be amazed that Frankel could go at a sprinter's pace, but most top class milers could. Chief Singer walloped top sprinters Committed, Never So Bold and Habibti at their own game in the July Cup, having previously won the St James Palace Stakes over a mile by 8 lengths, and he in turn had been beaten easily by El Gran Senor in the Guineas. Thatch, who won the St James Palace Stakes by an amazing 15 lengths, also won the July Cup. Both horses went on to win the Sussex Stakes, back over a mile, after their G1 July Cup sprint victories.

Peintre Celebre

Someone else used the argument that Sea the Stars was over rated because he was beaten first time out. That is a moronic way of thinking to put it extremely mildly.

People forget that Frankel and Sea the Stars earned the same rating after their three year old seasons.

It's a testament to Sea the Stars' ability that he was precocious enough to win a Guineas, this is the same horse who was by an Arc winner AS A FOUR YEAR OLD, half brother to a Derby winner. Frankel's Guineas was extremely impressive visually, visually being the crucial world. Who can remember the top class horses in behind. Dubawi Gold, Native Khan, Slim Shady in fourth if I remember.

diomed

I was more impressed with Sea The Stars.
What clouded my judgement of Frankel was the incessant publicity and sympathy for Henry Cecil. I find it hard to separate the horse from the hype. I think Timeform erred when they awarded him the very high rating.

Back when I was interested I noticed that Frankel only beat standard time three times which was surprising. He never beat standard time by a second.
Just now I looked up Sea The Stars times. He also beat standard time only three times, but by bigger margins.
You might say STS was running over longer so it is easier to beat standard. It is still standard. Of course ground and competition affects final times.

Frankel only ran in England, mostly at the same distances, against the same horses. I think Frankel is to racing what David Beckham is to soccer.

He might produce a few good horses as a sire. His stud fee is too high for a freshman sire. His starting fee is a fee for a proven Group 1 / Classic sire.

diomed

Off, off, off topic, but I haven't seen this film before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHi8SZFwzw

Nulty

diomed wrote: »

Off, off, off topic, but I haven't seen this film before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHi8SZFwzw

Is that Paul carberry at 3.02

FIVE2_THREE

Another advantage Frankel has over STS is his record over wet ground. STS was notoriously withdrawn from the Irish Derby because of rain while Frankel ran in his debut in a rain soaked Newmarket defeating two future G1 performers and in his last race he outstayed CDA a horse who has one of the greatest wet ground CV's in the history of racing.

Shemale

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/'He+went+at+a+Group+1+sprinter's+pace+for+the+first+five+furlongs'...-a0255143277

"considering the headwind and that he had no company to make him go even faster it was a staggering display of raw speed and power. "

An unbiased article written by someone who understands racing and physics. Imagine for a second we have Frankel with STS upsides sprinting as one goes quicker the other goes quicker as they have company, very soon both would break the sound barrier then the light barrier.

Shemale

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Another advantage Frankel has over STS is his record over wet ground. STS was notoriously withdrawn from the Irish Derby because of rain while Frankel ran in his debut in a rain soaked Newmarket defeating two future G1 performers and in his last race he outstayed CDA a horse who has one of the greatest wet ground CV's in the history of racing.

Ah yes versatile, his first race was soft he just beat Nathaniel, his last race after a 2 month break he only beat Nathaniel who was running off 126 yet Frankel got 140, lol what a fraud of a horse.

An extended Frankel beat an injured and hanging Canford Cliffs by 5L in CC last race, CC was one of the few correctly rated horses he beat and for all his running all the way to the line he only beat an injured and hanging 127 horse 5 lengths. 140+ my balls.

FIVE2_THREE

Shemale wrote: »

Ah yes versatile, his first race was soft he just beat Nathaniel, his last race after a 2 month break he only beat Nathaniel who was running off 126 yet Frankel got 140, lol what a fraud of a horse.

An extended Frankel beat an injured and hanging Canford Cliffs by 5L in CC last race, CC was one of the few correctly rated horses he beat and for all his running all the way to the line he only beat an injured and hanging 127 horse 5 lengths. 140+ my balls.

24 different horses accounting for 59 G1 wins. thats better competition than STS faced.

diomed

kfallon wrote: »

Yet STS Guineas win was a quicker time over all!

Interesting.

2000 Guineas 8f
Sea The Stars ............ 1:35.88 gd/fm
Frankel ..................... 1:37.30 gd/fm

International 10.5f
Sea The Stars ............ 2:5.29 gd/fm
Frankel ..................... 2:6.59 gd/fm

ComplyOrDie

diomed wrote: »

Interesting.

2000 Guineas 8f
Sea The Stars ............ 1:35.88 gd/fm
Frankel ..................... 1:37.30 gd/fm

---

Making all againts a headwind would need to be taken into account

International 10.5f
Sea The Stars ............ 2:5.29 gd/fm
Frankel ..................... 2:6.59 gd/fm

2000 Guineas 8f

---

Making all againts a headwind would need to be taken into account
International 10.5f

---

8lb would make a significant difference

ComplyOrDie

Champion 2yo of 2008 was Mastercraftsman, STS ran 3 times at 2 in 2008 and was not crowned champion yet you are trying to make a case for him to be a true champion. In a nutshell he was champion for one season (all be it winning over various trips). Frankel was crowned champion in all three seasons where he raced and was UNBEATEN. His display in the Guineas was breathtaking and considering he done it from the front (scientifically if he was rode with cover, energy would have been conserved and its probable it may have been a faster time...just look at cyclists who change formation to give each other breaks from headwind) it was an exceptional time.

Some will say Frankel was wrapped in cotton wool and never travelled where as STS did. But that total BS, Frankel had no need to travel (He was the best and if they wanted to meet him they should have to meet in his back garden) additionally as an Irish person speaking our G1’s are softer than the English G1’s and you could say STS added a few easy G1’s to his tally here in Ireland.

Frankel never ducked any Horse/Race on his schedule, STS ducked the Irish derby.


To round thing off some of the best in the business have been quoted in the below article. Just read Quotes and remember these are their quotes a few years after STS won MOST of his starts


http://www.rte.ie/sport/racing/uk/2012/1021/342519-all-rise-for-frankel-tributes-to-a-wonder-horse/

FIVE2_THREE

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

Champion 2yo of 2008 was Mastercraftsman, STS ran 3 times at 2 in 2008 and was not crowned champion yet you are trying to make a case for him to be a true champion. In a nutshell he was champion for one season (all be it winning over various trips). Frankel was crowned champion in all three seasons where he raced and was UNBEATEN. His display in the Guineas was breathtaking and considering he done it from the front (scientifically if he was rode with cover, energy would have been conserved and its probable it may have been a faster time...just look at cyclists who change formation to give each other breaks from headwind) it was an exceptional time.

Some will say Frankel was wrapped in cotton wool and never travelled where as STS did. But that total BS, Frankel had no need to travel (He was the best and if they wanted to meet him they should have to meet in his back garden) additionally as an Irish person speaking our G1’s are softer than the English G1’s and you could say STS added a few easy G1’s to his tally here in Ireland.

Frankel never ducked any Horse/Race on his schedule, STS ducked the Irish derby.


To round thing off some of the best in the business have been quoted in the below article. Just read Quotes and remember these are their quotes a few years after STS won MOST of his starts


http://www.rte.ie/sport/racing/uk/2012/1021/342519-all-rise-for-frankel-tributes-to-a-wonder-horse/

Andre Fabre, trainer
"I don't know what else you can say about him. He's probably the best horse who has ever been bred, he's a combination of power and charm. He has a great personality. He's extraordinary. The best I had seen before was Mill Reef, but Frankel is probably better."

And that's coming from Andre Fabre a 23 time champion trainer in France and 7 time Arc winner.

FIVE2_THREE

As far as Frankel running only in England that's BS. think about this. of All the American Triple Crown winners. only Secretariat ran outside of the U.S. and that race came at the end of his career in the then G3 Canadian international at Woodbine. Despite that. any American all time list still features. Citation,Affirmed,Seattle Slew in the top 5 or top 10.

klairondavis

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

As far as Frankel running only in England that's BS. think about this. of All the American Triple Crown winners. only Secretariat ran outside of the U.S. and that race came at the end of his career in the then G3 Canadian international at Woodbine. Despite that. any American all time list still features. Citation,Affirmed,Seattle Slew in the top 5 or top 10.

The debate isn't about Frankel v US horses. It's Frankel v Sea The Stars. Sea The Stars travelled to England four times and to France once as a 3yo. The furthest Frankel travelled from Newmarket was to Yorkshire twice. If we are debating the various merits of both horses it is a factor that should be taken into account.

diomed

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

2000 Guineas 8f

---

Making all againts a headwind would need to be taken into account
International 10.5f

---

8lb would make a significant difference

2000 Guineas: He was slow because of the headwind, but he was also incredibly quick over the first 5 furlongs?
International: And a year difference in age should be taken into account.

FIVE2_THREE

klairondavis wrote: »

The debate isn't about Frankel v US horses. It's Frankel v Sea The Stars. Sea The Stars travelled to England four times and to France once as a 3yo. The furthest Frankel travelled from Newmarket was to Yorkshire twice. If we are debating the various merits of both horses it is a factor that should be taken into account.

The travel argument falls short when the facts are put on the table. for all the traveling STS did he still didn't face the QUALITY in competition Frankel did. 24 different horses accounting for 59 G1's took their shot at Frankel and they all failed. some one put up a post earlier saying STS competition amassed 40 G1's last I looked. 59 is still more than 40.

paddyisreal

Frankel was a great horse but to me its all hype. Never raced outside his country and all his races were hand picked. Kind of like the english premier league is the best in the world.... all bull and hype. To prove himself a true great he would of have to been aimed at a top international race but as i said the horse was hyped up.dancing brave proved himself a truly outstanding horse as did sts. Why frankel was never took abroad is very dissapointing as i think he would of left no stone unturned but he never did. He won races in his own backyard and ducked blaxk caviar also

I said

The BS out of the handicappers mouth to reduce dancing braves mark leaves a stain on there profession.
What next Arkles reduced because he was beaten a length and a half carry 12st10?

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

And that's coming from Andre Fabre a 23 time champion trainer in France and 7 time Arc winner.

The Andre Fabre who trains for Prince Khalid Abdullah, owner of Frankel.

ComplyOrDie

AOB trained Excelebration, Zoffany and Roderic O'Connor to name a few that were beaten by Frankel also trained Fame And Glory, Mastercraftsman and Rip Van Winkle who were beaten by STS. He is on record saying about Frankel "One word describes him - incredible. He's the most incredible horse we have ever seen. He's just unbelievable." This is coming for AOB about an opponent

Frankie was 3rd in the Arc that STS won as well as riding against him on other occasions. So one could say he has seen 1st hand STS ability and having ridden against Frankel has been quoted "He doesn't just win, he destroys the field every time. He's not only got a great physique, he's got that will to win. I've never seen anything like it, and I probably won't for a long time. To have such a beautiful creature in our sport is fantastic."


Johhny Murtagh (Coolmore stable jockey at the time STS ran) has been quoted on saying about Frankel "He just kills horses, he wins Group Ones by six or seven lengths - it's hard to win a maiden like that. He's just the ultimate champion."

Richard Hughes (Multiple time Champion) who rode against both on multiple times said "He's the best horse in the flesh I've ever seen. I've not seen anything quite like him."

Now considering the above had all seen and had interaction with STS (either rode or trained horses that ran against him), these are statements that confirm Frankel is and was a Superior racehorse

I'll leave you with one of the best Adverts I ever seen http://www.chestnutcreative.com/wp-content/uploads/frankel_main_110113.jpg

diomed

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

The travel argument falls short when the facts are put on the table. for all the traveling STS did he still didn't face the QUALITY in competition Frankel did. 24 different horses accounting for 59 G1's took their shot at Frankel and they all failed. some one put up a post earlier saying STS competition amassed 40 G1's last I looked. 59 is still more than 40.

I think Frankel was a very good horse that had a well managed career.

"Stats" that list a horse beating "the winners of" is what you will find in stallion advertisements.
This is picking "stats" to divert the reader from the performance of the horse to info that may or may not be important.

For example, I could say that Runaway (who?) beat the winners of 17 Group 1s. In fact Runaway in his career won three listed races and two lesser races.
He finished 3rd in the Prix d'Ispahan on 14/5/09 when Proviso finished 5th (who won 3 G1s) and Goldikova (who won 14 G1s) finished 7th ... so he beat the winners of 17 Group 1s.

Frankel raced 14 times over 3 seasons. Sea The Stars raced 9 times over two seasons.
Frankel probably ran against more horses who had run in Group races.

The first two Sea The Stars races were maiden races, then a Group 2, leaving six Group 1 races where he would meet horses who might themselves had won Group 1s.
If you do the same with Frankel's races and discard his first three races that leaves 11 races where he could meet Group 1 winners.

That leaves 6 races for Sea The Stars, 11 for Frankel to possibly meet Group 1 winners. This might explain your 59 for Frankel against 40 for Sea The Stars.

You say "59 is still more than 40."
I say 11 races is more than 6 races.

Another reason I do not like "beat the winners of" is it does not let the reader know if those Group 1 wins were before or after.
e.g. Cirrus Des Aigles beat Flintshire on 07/06/14 in The Coronation Cup at Epsom.
Flintshire later won the G1 Honk Kong Vase at Sha Tin on 14/12/14.
When CDA beat him at Epsom Flintshire was the "winner of one Group 1". Does the later win by Flintshire now increase the Cirrus Des Aigles tally by another?

Does Camelot's tally of "winners of ?? Group 1s" increase by four now that Main Sequence has won four Group 1s in the USA two years after Camelot retired?

A real fact is Frankel's best performance against the clock was 0.95 seconds fast.

FIVE2_THREE

diomed wrote: »

I think Frankel was a very good horse that had a well managed career.

"Stats" that list a horse beating "the winners of" is what you will find in stallion advertisements.
This is picking "stats" to divert the reader from the performance of the horse to info that may or may not be important.

For example, I could say that Runaway (who?) beat the winners of 17 Group 1s. In fact Runaway in his career won three listed races and two lesser races.
He finished 3rd in the Prix d'Ispahan on 14/5/09 when Proviso finished 5th (who won 3 G1s) and Goldikova (who won 14 G1s) finished 7th ... so he beat the winners of 17 Group 1s.

Frankel raced 14 times over 3 seasons. Sea The Stars raced 9 times over two seasons.
Frankel probably ran against more horses who had run in Group races.

The first two Sea The Stars races were maiden races, then a Group 2, leaving six Group 1 races where he would meet horses who might themselves had won Group 1s.
If you do the same with Frankel's races and discard his first three races that leaves 11 races where he could meet Group 1 winners.

That leaves 6 races for Sea The Stars, 11 for Frankel to possibly meet Group 1 winners. This might explain your 59 for Frankel against 40 for Sea The Stars.

You say "59 is still more than 40."
I say 11 races is more than 6 races.

Another reason I do not like "beat the winners of" is it does not let the reader know if those Group 1 wins were before or after.
e.g. Cirrus Des Aigles beat Flintshire on 07/06/14 in The Coronation Cup at Epsom.
Flintshire later won the G1 Honk Kong Vase at Sha Tin on 14/12/14.
When CDA beat him at Epsom Flintshire was the "winner of one Group 1". Does the later win by Flintshire now increase the Cirrus Des Aigles tally by another?

Does Camelot's tally of "winners of ?? Group 1s" increase by four now that Main Sequence has won four Group 1s in the USA two years after Camelot retired?

A real fact is Frankel's best performance against the clock was 0.95 seconds fast.

That's how we've been doing it for 300 years. horses carry form over to their next race. and when you asses a horse you asses the competition it faced. its call FORM for a reason.

FIVE2_THREE

I said wrote: »

The BS out of the handicappers mouth to reduce dancing braves mark leaves a stain on there profession.
What next Arkles reduced because he was beaten a length and a half carry 12st10?

It's a RATINGS SYSTEM. it's not sealed in stone.

http://garethflynn.com/curious_case_dancing_braves_official_rating.html

diomed

I make it 60 Group 1s won by horses that Frankel beat. These were Group 1s won both before and after the horses met Frankel.
This might clear up the impression that horses won 59 Group 1 races and were then beaten by Frankel.

Cirrus Des Aigles (6)
St Nicholas Abbey (6) – 1 x 8f 2yo and 5 12f older
Dream Ahead (5) – 4 x 6f, 1 x 7f
Canford Cliffs (4) – 4 x 8f
Twice Over (4) – 4 x 10f+
Excelebration (3) – 3 x 8f
Helmet (3) – three Australian G1s
Pastorius (3) – 10.5 to 12f
Rio De La Plata (3) – 1x2yo & 2 Italian 5yo
Dick Turpin (2) – 2 x 8f G1
Farhh (2) – 2 x 5yo G1s
Grand Prix Boss (2) - 2 Japanese G1s
Immortal Verse (2) – 1 fillies G1
Nathaniel (2) – 10f, 12f
Roderic O'Connor (2) – 2 x 8f
Treasure Beach (2) – 10f & 12f
Casamento (1) – 8f 2yo
Colour Vision (1) – 1 20f G1
Master Of Hounds (1) – Meydan G1
Pathfork (1) – 2yo G1
Planteur (1) – 10.5f
Poet's Voice (1) – 8f
Side Glance (1) - Australian G1
Wootton Bassett (1) - 7f 2yo G1
Zoffany (1) - 6f 2yo G1

These horses beaten by Frankel could be considered milers and his opposition.
Cirrus Des Aigles; Canford Cliffs; Excelebration; Dick Turpin; Farhh; Roderic O'Connor.

Some of the G1 winners were lower class and won their G1 abroad in less competitive company
or were 2yo horses (Wooton Bassett; Zoffany)
or won at longer distances (St Nicholas Abbey; Twice Over; Pastorius; Nathaniel; Treasure Beach; Colour Vision),
or shorter distances (Dream Ahead)

Johner

Frankel for me, two of the best though.

Shemale

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

Making all againts a headwind would need to be taken into account

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

His display in the Guineas was breathtaking and considering he done it from the front (scientifically if he was rode with cover, energy would have been conserved and its probable it may have been a faster time...just look at cyclists who change formation to give each other breaks from headwind) it was an exceptional time.

This headwind talk is laughable have you even seen the race? There is slight movement of Queally silks which is due to Frankel running, it was a bright clear day. Other than the biased article posted where is the evidence of wind for both races?

Interesting you ignore the fact that STS was fighting for his head for the first 2/3 furlongs whereas Frankel didn't lose any energy being let go on and was still slower.

Shemale

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

It's a RATINGS SYSTEM. it's not sealed in stone.

It's not set in stone so do you think they will reassess Frankel and the majority of his opposition that have been overrated?

In relation to the number of G1s Diomed makes some good points, Frankel had more races to beat them and he also ran as a four year old giving him a whole host of new opposition. Also Cirrus Des Aigles was banned for drugs which sullies the number of group 1s he has won. On the same horse, drugs or not, 4 year old Frankel only beat 6 year old CDA (the incorrecty rated 126 horse) by under two lengths, CDA went off and got stuffed in his next 4 races.

Its funny that quotes from people in racing are considering FACT, Fabre isn't impartial and Dettori has described all sorts of yolks the best he has every ridden and every year O Brien has the best horse he has every trained. Is it not possible that Talking up Frankel does Gallileo no harm?

As for saying Frankel beat better quality horses if we add 10lbs to STS opposition like the handicapper has we have a fair discussion.

I said

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

It's a RATINGS SYSTEM. it's not sealed in stone.

http://garethflynn.com/curious_case_dancing_braves_official_rating.html

All well and good but using that are you overrating some of the horses that races against Frankel.
With more group/grade 1 races that are run now and don't appear to have the same reliability to rate them,you can now travel Europe and win 2or3 group races without running to a consistent mark.
This is the problem with modern ratings

FIVE2_THREE

Shemale wrote: »

It's not set in stone so do you think they will reassess Frankel and the majority of his opposition that have been overrated?

In relation to the number of G1s Diomed makes some good points, Frankel had more races to beat them and he also ran as a four year old giving him a whole host of new opposition. Also Cirrus Des Aigles was banned for drugs which sullies the number of group 1s he has won. On the same horse, drugs or not, 4 year old Frankel only beat 6 year old CDA (the incorrecty rated 126 horse) by under two lengths, CDA went off and got stuffed in his next 4 races.

Its funny that quotes from people in racing are considering FACT, Fabre isn't impartial and Dettori has described all sorts of yolks the best he has every ridden and every year O Brien has the best horse he has every trained. Is it not possible that Talking up Frankel does Gallileo no harm?

As for saying Frankel beat better quality horses if we add 10lbs to STS opposition like the handicapper has we have a fair discussion.

Highly unlikely Frankel will be lowered. after all we're talking about a horse that was champion at 2,3 and 4 and holder of a world record 9 G1's in a row most of you call Frankel overrated but we will never see any of his achievements eclipsed. his record of 9 G1's in a row DRUG FREE will never be touched. And we will never see a horse be crowned Champion at 2,3, and 4 years of age.