Gay marriage referendum: what are we actually voting on?

Getting a wiki article and a page not found.

PopePalpatine

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

And? What is wrong with that?

Something about paedophilia, no doubt.

fran17

Deleted User wrote: »

Getting a wiki article and a page not found.

sorry cant seem to link.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/07/29/comment-why-is-drug-use-higher-in-the-gay-community/

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/gender_identity_disorder

Annasopra

But Fran17 you are of course aware that the overwhelming evidence of research on lgbt people who are parents is positive?

skooterblue2

fran17 wrote: »

Yes in theory that may have been the governments plan however the child and family bill was by and large the brain child of Alan Shatter.The new bill,which we know neither the wording or the date to be enacted,can only be speculated on.
What we can say with certainty is that if the referendum is passed then two gay men,women or even transsexual couples will legally be in a position to apply for adoption.

This may be a more palatable idea for the electorate than "Marriage". I have grown up in a rural village and the "gay agenda" is not acceptabe in the country voters. I have lost a few friends who could see what life would be like and just moved off to more hospitable envoirnments like London and Dublin.

Marriage is seen as soley the right of hetrosexual couples. I would have thought that the (civil partnership + adoption legislation + equality legislation) would give everything but marriage in name. You have all the rights enshrined and protections. At a later date you can work on calling it marriage if you have all the rights and protections already. Sometime it is better to take what you can when you can get it, ... some of us are on a clock and the meter is running out. If this gets rejected it could be another 10 years before a government puts it to an electorate again.

For anyone who doesnt think country people arent homophobic, I lived with a couple of lads from "Weist Cork", y'know big men builders (26-30), had no money for paying bills but wouldnt go with out Drink for the weekend and got thier girlfriends to clean the house. Those kind of boys. They loved slagging of the Polish and Qua'ares. They loved goading me about my gay friends, eventually I gave in and left the house. Homophobia is well alive in the countryside.

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Homophobia is well alive in the countryside.

Of course it is but the problem with your earlier postings was that you stereotyped all rural people as homophobic.

In fact I would say that rural Ireland is now quite open minded regarding lgbt rights.

There are lgbt groups now all over the place; Mayo, Longford, Wicklow, Kerry, Cavan, Donegal, louth, leitrim, Tipperary, Cork, Sligo, Carlow

skooterblue2

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

In fact I would say that rural Ireland is now quite open minded regarding lgbt rights.

There are lgbt groups now all over the place; Mayo, Longford, Wicklow, Kerry, Cavan, Donegal, louth, leitrim, Tipperary, Cork, Sligo, Carlow

What people say and what people do are completely two different things. And what they do in the privacy of a ballot box is a different matter entirely. Doesnt matter where you go you will still get the same Neatherthals every 8 miles in the country. "I like my drink, my mammy looks after me, de GAA and I hate Quaares". You think the above person is going to vote for Gay marriage? I would say (*sniggers*) slip one behind them without going throught a consitiutional referundum and then come back in 10 years when they are in a far minority and take it then.

Remember the CLOCK? I think you are too old after Mid 40's to adopt and there are some great couple who could make some excellent parents. Time is not on their side.

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

What people say and what people do are completely two different things. And what they do in the privacy of a ballot box is a different matter entirely. Doesnt matter where you go you will still get the same Neatherthals every 8 miles in the country. "I like my drink, my mammy looks after me, de GAA and I hate Quaares". You think the above person is going to vote for Gay marriage? I would say (*sniggers*) slip one behind them without going throught a consitiutional referundum and then come back in 10 years when they are in a far minority and take it then.

Remember the CLOCK? I think you are too old after Mid 40's to adopt and there are some great couple who could make some excellent parents. Time is not on their side.

Do you really not get my point?

skooterblue2

Short Answer ....... No. Rural areas are no places for gay people. Friend in Carlow got short of chased out of town. It got to a point where she couldnt go to the local night club without protection in the toilets and Girls were just as homophobics as guys.

Things are a little better but not much than 15 years ago.

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Short Answer ....... No. Rural areas are no places for gay people. Friend in Carlow got short of chased out of town. It got to a point where she couldnt go to the local night club without protection in the toilets and Girls were just as homophobics as guys.

Things are a little better but not much than 15 years ago.

The thing is. Rural Ireland is not a liberal utopia. I'm not claiming it is but honestly your attempt to paint everyone living in rural Ireland as homophobic is completely and utterly wrong. 1 million percent wrong. A high profile politician who I as an acquaintance was recently on a visit in midlands. The politician was stopped by an elderly farmer couple. Surprisingly the couple thanked the politician profusely for bringing in marriage equality.

Rural Ireland is very much a place for LGBT people.

Carlow
Carlow has a youth group, an LGBT Society in ITC, A support group for parents of trans children and hosts seminars
http://www.belongto.org/group.aspx?sectionid=8480
https://twitter.com/itc_shout_lgbt
http://carlowmentalhealth.ie/?event=evening-seminar-lgbt-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-and-mental-health
http://www.teni.ie/page.aspx?contentid=14

Cavan
Cavan has an LGBT group that meets fortnightly and a youth group
http://www.blog.lgbtinc.org/
http://www.belongto.org/group.aspx?sectionid=6022

Clare
Clare has an LGBT womens network and hosts event/seminars from time to time
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Clare-Womens-Network-LGBT-Womyns-Group/349944841776558?fref=ts
http://www.youthdeved.ie/development_education/lgbt-information-evening-clare-youth-service-and-clare-vec-16-june
http://www.theouting.ie/

Cork
Cork has numerous resources; Womens groups, Mens groups, College socs, Youth groups, Trans groups

Donegal
Donegal has two youth groups, a supportive library, pride events, an lgbt society
https://www.facebook.com/pages/BreakOUT-Donegal/159986180753363?sk=info&tab=page_info
http://www.donegallibrary.ie/news/lgbtdisplay/
http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/what-s-on/arts-culture-entertainment/north-west-pride-first-lgbt-pride-event-in-donegal-1-4088742
http://www.donegalnow.com/article/1834

Galway
Galway has an advocacy group, a youth group, pride, lgbt soc
http://www.amachlgbt.com/about/
http://www.lgbtyouthgalway.com/
http://www.galwaypride.com/
http://www.socs.nuigalway.ie/society_profiles/view/75


I could go on but honestly your attempts to paint all people living in rural Ireland as homophobic straight people is wrong. Just wrong.

B_Wayne

In relation to Fran's post, classifying depression or even suicidal ideation at point in your life should never discount you from becoming a parent. Depression and suicidal ideation also tend to be aspects that develop as a result of things such such as ostracising and homophobia /transphobia.

In terms of drug use, once again varies dependent upon person. It also for many would tend to be something that primarily occurs during college life. I indulged in occasional marijuana use when I was in college. I'm straight, I know loads who used drugs of all kinds in college. All orientations. Drug experimentation is as common as ever.

Should recovered alcoholics be banned from parenting too? Since more Irish people drink to excess than in other countries, by your own logic they should not be allowed to adopt in foreign countries regardless of if applicants actually drink to excess. You should just assume they drink excessively.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Of course it is but the problem with your earlier postings was that you stereotyped all rural people as homophobic.

In fact I would say that rural Ireland is now quite open minded regarding lgbt rights.

There are lgbt groups now all over the place; Mayo, Longford, Wicklow, Kerry, Cavan, Donegal, louth, leitrim, Tipperary, Cork, Sligo, Carlow

Live in Cork county, you'll still get some regressive homophobic views but it's significantly dropped. My family would vote for ssm along with most of their friends.

Annasopra

B_Wayne wrote: »

Live in Cork county, you'll still get some regressive homophobic views but it's significantly dropped. My family would vote for ssm along with most of their friends.

Agreed. As I said to Skooterblue of course rural Ireland has elements of homophobia. However he is continually suggesting EVERYONE in rural Ireland is homophobic. That is not true. And the growth of LGBT groups all over Ireland in the last 10 years paints a picture of an increasingly accepting and tolerant rural Ireland.

skooterblue2

Just like the People who say, I wouldnt be rascist or intolerant of travellers, I like green energy,
They are the same people who avoid other nationalities, would kick up about a halting site or hate a wind turbine near them. Its ok as long as it is not in my backyard. If you want to really find a rascist/tinker hater/or NIMBY or homobphobe try looking in a polling booth. "I wouldnt vote for a QUaare president".

I really hate to say it, if you ever look at the Savage eye and nod your head then you know you are in trouble. Gotta love Nick "the Bull" Daly, Publican, familyman and man of the year.

Just because you throw a few thousand Euro at a problem it doesnt solve the problem. The problem starts with home education.

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Just like the People who say, I wouldnt be rascist or intolerant of travellers, I like green energy,
They are the same people who avoid other nationalities, would kick up about a halting site or hate a wind turbine near them. Its ok as long as it is not in my backyard. If you want to really find a rascist/tinker hater/or NIMBY or homobphobe try looking in a polling booth. "I wouldnt vote for a QUaare president".

I really hate to say it, if you ever look at the Savage eye and nod your head then you know you are in trouble. Gotta love Nick "the Bull" Daly, Publican, familyman and man of the year.

Just because you throw a few thousand Euro at a problem it doesnt solve the problem. The problem starts with home education.

and that proves that everyone in rural Ireland is a straight cisgender homophobe how?

skooterblue2

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

and that proves that everyone in rural Ireland is a straight cisgender homophobe how?

Never said everyone, All you need is a few people in the right position with those ideas. Can find yourself excluded very quickly, barred from pubs, Priest using influence, the builders crowd. Just a few key people in a village can make it very difficult to exist

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Never said everyone, All you need is a few people in the right position with those ideas. Can find yourself excluded very quickly, barred from pubs, Priest using influence, the builders crowd. Just a few key people in a village can make it very difficult to exist

Sorry - still not buying it.

Your generalisations and stereotypes are just simply untrue.

You have no proof other than a few anecdotes and some musings. I mean at least I have given a list of groups that exist in Rural Ireland - all you have done is make rhetorical statements and given a few examples. But in using these examples you have made sweeping statements about all rural people being homophobic and rural Ireland being no place for LGBT people.

Even the fact that you yourself are tolerant and accepting and have gay friends and live in a rural area disproves your theories.

If its really as bad as you claim then how come there are so many of these groups out there and how come they are hosting public events?

skooterblue2

Well being harrased by neathertals in carlows night clubs, wasnt real enough? The country is notriously cliquey.

The fact that I left as soon as I could proves that the three street town is no where to be. To quote Ross O Carrrol Kelly "the only job you will get is sucking diesel out of parked cars and slapping the left handedness out of children".

Just because the Government throws a few Euro at the problem, just makes country people a little more friendly looking. It is very slowly changing opinions.

whoaaaa being born in a rural area and living by choice in a rural area are two very different things and once I was 19 I left to study else where and never returned to live at home. That is when I got to meet gay people at college and found out they werent as we were taught by the priests and parents.

mikemac1

What's rural and what's urban. Carlow town is over 20,000 people with a college too. I'd call you a townie tbh, you are not as rural as you think

skooterblue2 wrote: »

In the Urban areas yes.

In the Rural areas ... less so. Rual people are very Homophobic.

I was reading the same posts on boards years ago when the liberal urban sophisticates were going to vote for David Norris and backward yokels never would. How did that work out?

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Well being harrased by neathertals in carlows night clubs, wasnt real enough? The country is notriously cliquey.

The fact that I left as soon as I could proves that the three street town is no where to be. To quote Ross O Carrrol Kelly "the only job you will get is sucking diesel out of parked cars and slapping the left handedness out of children".

Just because the Government throws a few Euro at the problem, just makes country people a little more friendly looking. It is very slowly changing opinions.

whoaaaa being born in a rural area and living by choice in a rural area are two very different things and once I was 19 I left to study else where and never returned to live at home. That is when I got to meet gay people at college and found out they werent as we were taught by the priests and parents.

And yet lgbt people are living in happily in rural areas like never before. I have proved this. All you are doing is making grand sweeping generalisations and stereotypes.

I have no idea what money government is throwing at "the problem"

You have this image in your head that the entirety of rural Ireland is homophobic - this is not true. Its just not.

One eyed Jack

skooter your perceptions of Irish society are about 20 years out of date tbh, the same as your "bright city lights andl freedom" nonsense like you'd emigrated from some 50's backwater. I'm reminded of the sketches they do on Little Britain, where the guy is convinced he's "the only gay in the village", constantly suffering oppression, yet all round him there are LBGT people just getting on with their lives.

The humour of course is in his own lack of awareness, and I think you're languishing under the same lack of perspective. Sure, there are many people who are conservative, homophobic, whatever, but if you think they only exist in rural Ireland, you're wrong, they exist just as much in cites and yes, even in cities like London, Paris, New York, etc.

Thing is, they really don't exist anywhere in the kind of exaggerated numbers you're trying to make out, and I can't help but think you're allowing a handful of unfortunate experiences to colour your judgment. Confirmation bias it's called.

fran17

skooterblue2 wrote: »

This may be a more palatable idea for the electorate than "Marriage". I have grown up in a rural village and the "gay agenda" is not acceptabe in the country voters. I have lost a few friends who could see what life would be like and just moved off to more hospitable envoirnments like London and Dublin.

Marriage is seen as soley the right of hetrosexual couples. I would have thought that the (civil partnership + adoption legislation + equality legislation) would give everything but marriage in name. You have all the rights enshrined and protections. At a later date you can work on calling it marriage if you have all the rights and protections already. Sometime it is better to take what you can when you can get it, ... some of us are on a clock and the meter is running out. If this gets rejected it could be another 10 years before a government puts it to an electorate again.

For anyone who doesnt think country people arent homophobic, I lived with a couple of lads from "Weist Cork", y'know big men builders (26-30), had no money for paying bills but wouldnt go with out Drink for the weekend and got thier girlfriends to clean the house. Those kind of boys. They loved slagging of the Polish and Qua'ares. They loved goading me about my gay friends, eventually I gave in and left the house. Homophobia is well alive in the countryside.

Skooter you have some strong opinions on matters and that can only be good,this is what debate is all about.Actually I agree with some of what you are surmising.You seem to have your finger on the pulse but would you consider your opinions to be a general consensus in the gay community or would you be in the minority?

Annasopra

fran17 wrote: »

Skooter you have some strong opinions on matters and that can only be good,this is what debate is all about.Actually I agree with some of what you are surmising.You seem to have your finger on the pulse but would you consider your opinions to be a general consensus in the gay community or would you be in the minority?

Interesting assumption

skooterblue2

First I am neither gay nor do I discuss it with my friends as it is too much of a hot topic. But they do know my opinions that they can't get their whole shopping list on the one day. So i cant speak in that respect.

This referendum wont be won on opinions, it will be won on statistics even down to what day the referundum is. If it is held mid week this will deter student voters and week workers in dublin from travelling home. If it is held mid week it will be older people who will vote. I worry about student apathy and not being registered. The attitudes are "not interested in politics", etc etc "doesnt affect me".

As was stated no one has seen the paper.

skooterblue2

One eyed Jack wrote: »

skooter your perceptions of Irish society are about 20 years out of date tbh, the same as your "bright city lights andl freedom" nonsense like you'd emigrated from some 50's backwater.

The humour of course is in his own lack of awareness, and I think you're languishing under the same lack of perspective. Sure, there are many people who are conservative, homophobic, whatever, but if you think they only exist in rural Ireland, you're wrong, they exist just as much in cites and yes, even in cities like London, Paris, New York, etc.

Thing is, they really don't exist anywhere in the kind of exaggerated numbers you're trying to make out, and I can't help but think you're allowing a handful of unfortunate experiences to colour your judgment. Confirmation bias it's called.

20 years out of date yeah that is nearly the same time I left my village. In the cities you move into a street and nobody cares, as long as you dont draw attention to yourself (drugs parties, anti social behavior etc ). In the country everyone knows everyone elses business

I didnt know it had a name..... you learn something new everyday.

B_Wayne

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Interesting assumption

I think Fran considers David Quinn to have his finger on pulse...

skooterblue2 wrote: »

First I am neither gay nor do I discuss it with my friends as it is too much of a hot topic. But they do know my opinions that they can't get their whole shopping list on the one day. So i cant speak in that respect.

This referendum wont be won on opinions, it will be won on statistics even down to what day the referundum is. If it is held mid week this will deter student voters and week workers in dublin from travelling home. If it is held mid week it will be older people who will vote. I worry about student apathy and not being registered. The attitudes are "not interested in politics", etc etc "doesnt affect me".

As was stated no one has seen the paper.

LGBT groups on campuses put massive efforts into getting students to sign up. I do think apathy or an assumption of being a sure thing could be damaging admittedly. I also feel on the other hand that we could see a large turnout on voting day.

mikemac1 wrote: »

What's rural and what's urban. Carlow town is over 20,000 people with a college too. I'd call you a townie tbh, you are not as rural as you think



I was reading the same posts on boards years ago when the liberal urban sophisticates were going to vote for David Norris and backward yokels never would. How did that work out?

Except Norris lost significant portion of vote because of the letter he wrote on state stationary. It wasn't because of him being gay imho.

skooterblue2

B_Wayne wrote: »

LGBT groups on campuses put massive efforts into getting students to sign up. I do think apathy or an assumption of being a sure thing could be damaging admittedly. I also feel on the other hand that we could see a large turnout on voting day.


Except Norris lost significant portion of vote because of the letter he wrote on state stationary. It wasn't because of him being gay imho.

There is no arguement that the LGBT arent doing enough but some of the students dont see the point of getting registered. I spoke to 60 student the other day about getting registed to vote. The smarter ones didnt see the point and the other had no opinion only 1 in 6 were registered to vote.

I would say it was old rivialries in the Labour party leaked that to the press. I am sure all the other candidates had done far worse in their day (Thompson machine gun, cousin called the penguin and member of Opus Dei, Paedo brother in the closet) but none of them got th hounding David Norris got. David Norris would have been a wonderful addition to the Aras and wouldnt have signed the Irish Water legislation. Of the 5 candidates for President he would have been the one I would most like to hear talk. After that I wanted to hear how the little girl from Derry was going to protect the constitution. :rolleyes:

skooterblue2

B_Wayne wrote: »

I think Fran considers David Quinn to have his finger on pulse...

no need to be nasty. attack the idea not the poster.

Annasopra

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I would say it was old rivialries in the Labour party leaked that to the press. I am sure all the other candidates had done far worse in their day (Thompson machine gun, cousin called the penguin and member of Opus Dei, Paedo brother in the closet) but none of them got th hounding David Norris got. David Norris would have been a wonderful addition to the Aras and wouldnt have signed the Irish Water legislation. Of the 5 candidates for President he would have been the one I would most like to hear talk. After that I wanted to hear how the little girl from Derry was going to protect the constitution. :rolleyes:

As pointed out to you several times last week Norris was never in the Labour Party and MDH had to sign the legislation! :rolleyes:

skooterblue2

I never stated in "that" post he was in the labour party. Which is kind of sad as himself and Mary Robinson and Rurai Quinn were all so close on the wood Quay project or was it Gardiner Street preservation?

Black Swan

skooterblue2 wrote: »

no need to be nasty. attack the idea not the poster.

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