Top 10 Irish Horses Ever!

crossvilla

I've been trying to determine what were/are the best Irish bred/trained racehorses ever? Any views would be appreciated.

ComplyOrDie

crossvilla wrote: »

I've been trying to determine what were/are the best Irish bred/trained racehorses ever? Any views would be appreciated.

I'd throw beef and ista in the mix

handsfree2

Sea the Star's is my favourite horse of all time.
Hurricane fly next for me.

the groutch

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

I'd throw beef and ista in the mix

if you're including Beef you'd have to included Florida Pearl too.

sdoc13

No 1 is Arkle. End of discussion.

Nulty

Arkle
Hurricane Fly
Istabraq
Sea The Stars
Nijinsky
El Gran Senor
Flyingbolt
Moscow Flyer
Monksfield
Limestone Lad


Theres a few to get you started

I said

Arkle
Flyingbolt
Moscow flyer
Istabraq
Hurricane fly



Sea the stars
Nijinsky
Golden Fleece (never seen the best of him IMO)
El gran señor
Rock of Gibraltar

FIVE2_THREE

Way too many variables to consider.
1. Distance
2. Code> Flat visa Jumper
3. Era
4.Sex/Gender

Sadler's Wells and Galileo may not be at the top of any greatest horses list but they have redefined and defined the modern day stallion


Excluding the Era here are my top 4 per distance

Mile
1. Rock of Gibraltar- Once held the record for 7 straight G1 wins. bested only by Frankel who has 9
2. HenryTheNavigator- A true legend in every sense of the word.
3. Excelebration- If not for Frankel He would be talked about as an all time great
4. George Washington-Hard to mention Milers and not mention this fella

Middle Distance
1.Giants Causeway-Nicked named the Iron horse for a reason. Slugger,Puncher,Fighter.He loved a good scrap.
2.So You Think- He was good in Australia but became a legend when sent to Ireland.
3.Cape Blanco- Crossed the Atlantic 3 times in 4 months each time he was Victorious.
4. ????

12 furlongs
1.Nijinsky- The last Triple Crown Winner and an All Time Great
2. Sir Ivor- the first Flat racing star at Ballydoyle was also a star on the track. strong body of work.
3. High Chaparral- Strong Body of work. G1 winner at age 2,3 and 4 England,Ireland and the U.S.
4. Sea The stars- One of the greatest 3 year olds ever. but a lot of questions remained unanswered. how would he have fared at age 4 ?

Marathon
1.Yates- Greatest flat stayer EVER!!!
2.Vinnie Roe-A stayers Stayer. Gutty and Gritty, Solid Body of Work.
3.Fame and Glory- IT didn't matter to this fella. 10.5 F,12 F, OR 20 F regardless the distance no matter the pace he danced every dance.
4.Oscar Schindler- A gallant performer. Gave all he had every time he went to post.

jimjamcos

Is the above comment about STS a joke? Also, you've So You Think 2nd for middle distance which is nonsense, not even a legend within Coolmore and acknowledged as overrated. STS should be top for both mid dis and 12f, Nijinsky is the only one you've mentioned close to his level

FIVE2_THREE

jimjamcos wrote: »

Is the above comment about STS a joke? Also, you've So You Think 2nd for middle distance which is nonsense, not even a legend within Coolmore and acknowledged as overrated. STS should be top for both mid dis and 12f, Nijinsky is the only one you've mentioned close to his level

A duel cox plate winner and a 10 times G1 winner overall and you call him overrated ? I'm sorry where exactly are there 10 time G1 winners walking around ? as far as STS goes that was my view of him. regardless of what you say my view of him wont change. you are welcomed to post a list of your own instead of focusing on mine. I'm sure the author of the thread wanted a wide range of answers and opinions not just bone pickers who feed off on other peoples opinions. have a great day.

P.S. I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR LIST

Panrich

Some that deserve to be there

Cottage Rake
Prince Regent


Others that deserve a mention

Vintage Crop
Alleged
L'Escargot

handsfree2

I said wrote: »

Arkle
Flyingbolt
Moscow flyer
Istabraq
Hurricane fly



Sea the stars
Nijinsky
Golden Fleece (never seen the best of him IMO)
El gran señor
Rock of Gibraltar

Great list, some other great horse's have been mentioned above too like sir Ivor. Perhaps 10 of both flat and jumps.

I'd add saddler's well's and Galileo because of their proficiency as stallions. And i'd add the minstrel too.

UrbanFret

Arkle
Flying bolt
Golden Cygnet
Dawn run
Istabraq



Sea the stars
Nijinsky
Ballymoss
Alleged
Gailileo

Gringo180

Giants Causeway.

crossvilla

Thanks for all the suggestions. This is for my Dad, he's mainly a hurdles man.

I said

Carvils hill shame about the jumping had everything else

tryfix

The usual suspects over the Jumps, not greatly impressed by the modern greats bar Istabraq. Someone mentioned Carvill's Hill, probably the greatest hurdler to never have been given the opportunity to show what he could do. He was wasted over fences IMO and I think he would have slaughtered the best hurdlers on his day. Would have seriously fancied him to destroy an Ascot Gold field on the flat.

Sea The Stars and Nijinsky are the Flat legends for their versatility. El Gran Senor was poetry in motion over two seasons. Hawkwing deserves a lot more respect than he gets, one astonishing run and a heap of top top form over 3 years with High Chaparral's presence denying him a 12 length Derby win for a horse who shouldn't really have got the trip.

No other horse trained in Ireland that I can think of would have caught St Jovite on his Irish Derby win.

Sinndar was a tough tough horse who is much underappreciated.

Harry Angstrom

tryfix wrote: »

The usual suspects over the Jumps, not greatly impressed by the modern greats bar Istabraq. Someone mentioned Carvill's Hill, probably the greatest hurdler to never have been given the opportunity to show what he could do. He was wasted over fences IMO and I think he would have slaughtered the best hurdlers on his day. Would have seriously fancied him to destroy an Ascot Gold field on the flat.

Sea The Stars and Nijinsky are the Flat legends for their versatility. El Gran Senor was poetry in motion over two seasons. Hawkwing deserves a lot more respect than he gets, one astonishing run and a heap of top top form over 3 years with High Chaparral's presence denying him a 12 length Derby win for a horse who shouldn't really have got the trip.

No other horse trained in Ireland that I can think of would have caught St Jovite on his Irish Derby win.

Sinndar was a tough tough horse who is much underappreciated.

Carvills Hill was a mudlark. Most Roseliers needed soft ground. He never would've won an Ascot Gold Cup, unless it was a quagmire.

tryfix

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Carvills Hill was a mudlark. Most Roseliers needed soft ground. He never would've won an Ascot Gold Cup, unless it was a quagmire.

Very true about the ground not ability, forgot about his soft ground penchant as it was all a long time ago.

Do you remember his 20l ? racecourse gallop thrashing of Classical Charm, think it was over hurdles.

The Mig

NH: Bit before my time but the likes of Arkle, Flying Bolt, Dawn Run(can't believe nobody has mentioned her yet) were greats in my fathers eyes. My era would be the likes of Hurricane Fly, Istabraq, Moscow Flyer, Hardy Eustace and Beef or Salmon.

Flat: Can only be one for me and that's STS. "Perfection in Equine form" as Jim McGrath called him. From 8f-12f he done it all.

Panrich

tryfix wrote: »

Very true about the ground not ability, forgot about his soft ground penchant as it was all a long time ago.

Do you remember his 20l ? racecourse gallop thrashing of Classical Charm, think it was over hurdles.

I remember the commentators saying that Dreaper would be over the moon after Classical Charm finished 2nd in the champion hurdle based on that very piece of work.

Shemale

I am surprised Denman has not had a mention, one of the most impressive winners of the RSA and Gold Cup, demolishing Kauto, he won two Hennessys the second of which after his heart condition.

handsfree2

Shemale wrote: »

I am surprised Denman has not had a mention, one of the most impressive winners of the RSA and Gold Cup, demolishing Kauto, he won two Hennessys the second of which after his heart condition.

Neither were Irish trained or Irish owned.

The Mig

handsfree2 wrote: »

Neither were Irish trained or Irish owned.

He was bred in Ireland which is in OP's question

andyman

If we're including Irish bed horses then surely Best Mate has to be in there?

andyman

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

A duel cox plate winner and a 10 times G1 winner overall and you call him overrated ? I'm sorry where exactly are there 10 time G1 winners walking around ? as far as STS goes that was my view of him. regardless of what you say my view of him wont change. you are welcomed to post a list of your own instead of focusing on mine. I'm sure the author of the thread wanted a wide range of answers and opinions not just bone pickers who feed off on other peoples opinions. have a great day.

P.S. I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR LIST

Relax, regardless if what the OP was looking for this thread was always going to spark debate. A lot of people would disagree with your views of STS.

Itziger

Ah Folks, we'll have to leave out Irish bred, cos we'd be here for a decade.

Some fantastic horses mentioned already. From what we saw here in Europe there is no bloody way you can include So You Think in that list. If we said 45 best Irish trained horses he might squeeze in. I love I Said's list. The Nijinsky Dewhurst is a thing of beauty. Then there's the question of consistency; anyone who saw Hawking's Derby 2nd and the following year's Lockinge would be well impressed but he was a bit disappointing on other occasions. St Jovite is a horse that's overlooked on these top lists things.

As for the jumps, well Arkle was on his own though there are those who say Flyingbolt would have given him problems. How in the name of Jaysus did they end up in the same stable at the same time! Anyone mention Captain Christy? Again, only saw the brilliance once or twice but I read once that when he won a King George (I think it was a King George) that those watching thought the jockey got the distance wrong and didn't realise that he had to do it all again. But he did. If the OP's Dad is into the hurdles he'll be looking for Monksfield, no?

Itziger

The Golden Fleece Derby is a superb 12f performance. Shame we didn't see more of him. Could he have done that at 10f?

Gringo180

tryfix wrote: »

Sinndar was a tough tough horse who is much underappreciated.

Totally agree on this one. That was a strong classic year and his Arc win he put away a lot of top class animals, Montjeu, Hightori, Samum, Egyptband etc

His Derby win he had Sakhee, Beat All and Best of the Bests in behind him too.

It was a shame Ox didnt campaign him in some of the top 10f races. He could of had a similar cv to Sea the Stars.

Panrich

andyman wrote: »

Relax, regardless if what the OP was looking for this thread was always going to spark debate. A lot of people would disagree with your views of STS.

And the stick used to beat STS (retired at 3) could equally be applied to several others on the list.

cashcarson

Ability wise he might not of been in the same league as a lot mentioned before in the thread but I always had a soft spot for Danoli he was around at a time when there was no real super powers in the irish game and it was a case of the little man taking on the big boys he had some heart and after all he achieved over hurdles to comeback to leopardstown after a bad fall and win a hennessy beating Jodami no less was a fair achievement.

FIVE2_THREE

Panrich wrote: »

And the stick used to beat STS (retired at 3) could equally be applied to several others on the list.

Its not a stick at all but more so of an open eye. STS was a very good horse but it's not like we haven't seen his like before. Mill reef, Nashwan and lammtara all have similar bodies of work. his derby wan't on the level of Shergar and his Arc lacked the depth of those won by Dancing Brave and Sea Bird. as I said he was a very good horse but the truth is we are likely to see another STS before we see another Frankel or Nijinsky.

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Its not a stick at all but more so of an open eye. STS was a very good horse but it's not like we haven't seen his like before. Mill reef, Nashwan and lammtara all have similar bodies of work. his derby wan't on the level of Shergar and his Arc lacked the depth of those won by Dancing Brave and Sea Bird. as I said he was a very good horse but the truth is we are likely to see another STS before we see another Frankel or Nijinsky.

Sea The Stars had the most successful classic season of any racehorse ever, anywhere. Nobody knows how long we'll have to wait for a racehorse to emulate him. What we do know is that no horse in the history of horse racing before him managed to achieve what he achieved, although great horses like Nijinsky, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave came close. Nijinsky was the closest thing to him in Europe, and that was way back in 1970.

ronsh2000

Sea The Stars and Nijinsky tops on the flat. El Gran Senor, High Chaparral, Sir Ivor, Hawk Wing and Giant's Causeway also top class. Arkle (GOAT), Moscow Flyer, Dawn Run, Istabraq and Captain Christy over jumps.

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

Sea The Stars had the most successful classic season of any racehorse ever, anywhere. Nobody knows how long we'll have to wait for a racehorse to emulate him. What we do know is that no horse in the history of horse racing before him managed to achieve what he achieved, although great horses like Nijinsky, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave came close. Nijinsky was the closest thing to him in Europe, and that was way back in 1970.

Once again that is YOUR OPINION regardless of what anybody says you will never change YOUR OPINION about STS and that's well and great.
but a few experts disagree with your opinion.

As racing professionals rushed to praise Sea The Stars today, following news of his retirement, a rare note of scepticism was struck by Joe Mercer, a former champion jockey best remembered for his association with Brigadier Gerard in the early 1970s. Mercer said Sea The Stars, though impressive, was still not among the best three racehorses he had seen and cautioned against the effects of being swept up by momentary hype.

"I remember when Galileo won the King George [in 2001], they were raving about him being the best they'd ever seen," Mercer said. "You can't have a best horse you've ever seen every other year.

"I've always said Ribot was the best horse I've seen. Sea-Bird would be second and then the horse I rode, Brigadier Gerard. Sea The Stars has won six Group Ones, Brigadier Gerard won 13 and there isn't a horse that's got past him yet.

"You can't fault Sea The Stars – he's exceptional, he's got a fantastic temperament and fantastic looks. If he was a film star, he'd be top of the ranks. But half the people who are saying he's the best they've ever seen aren't old enough to have seen the best horses. I'm going back to the 1950s with Ribot."

There was less caution from others associated with great horses of the past, including Pat Eddery, who rode Dancing Brave to victory in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe of 1986. Eddery said Sea The Stars was "up there with the best" and laughed at a suggestion that he might resent the current champion being regarded as better than his horse.

Ian Balding, who trained Mill Reef to win the Derby and the Arc of 1971, said Sea The Stars was "right up there" with Sea-Bird, Ribot and Mill Reef and was "probably the best".

"He was lucky enough that he didn't have to try and beat Brigadier Gerard in the Guineas [as Mill Reef failed to do]. But he's a fabulous, fabulous racehorse in every way," Balding said.

Fans of Mill Reef can point to the fact that he stayed in training as a four-year-old and continued to win top-class races, but Balding said he has every sympathy with the decision to send Sea The Stars to stud after just two seasons on the track.

"These days, you can understand that this happens because they can make so much money," he said. "In Mill Reef's day, that wasn't an issue because you didn't cover more than 40 mares per year. Now, if you want to, you can cover 150 here and 150 in Australia."

Both Balding and Eddery expressed their relief that Sea The Stars would not be sent to America to contest next month's Breeders' Cup Classic, an exacting test which they feel the horse does not deserve after achieving so much. But his immediate retirement was a matter of regret for Geoff Greetham, who will have a great deal of influence over Sea The Stars' enduring reputation.

Greetham is publishing editor of the internationally respected Timeform annuals, whose ratings are widely accepted as definitive when it comes to assessing a horse's ability. He suspects that, without a trip to America, Sea The Stars will not end up with a rating that will satisfy the horse's many ardent fans.

"It is a shame he won't go to the Breeders' Cup," says Greetham. "If he was to win there, that would put him one step in front of the achievements of Dancing Brave, who had a very similar record and was beaten there.

"I didn't subscribe to the view that he had nothing left to prove. I would like to have seen him in America and he's still a horse who didn't win his races by more than he needed to. For that reason, he could still be better than his current rating."

Greetham expects that, when Timeform's 'Racehorses' annual is published in the spring, Sea The Stars will be left on his current mark of 140, making him as good as Dancing Brave and Shergar, but just behind Mill Reef and a few lengths adrift of Brigadier Gerard.

Sea The Stars is not even that good, according to Phil Smith, Britain's senior handicapper. On his figures, the horse is worth a rating of 135, well adrift of Dancing Brave on 141, though there is still a chance that his rating could be raised.

Smith will meet with his international colleagues in Hong Kong at the end of the year to thrash out final figures for this year's best horses. In the meantime, he will be keeping a close eye on the horses beaten by Sea The Stars – if they turn out to be better than previously thought, Sea The Stars' rating may go up.

Of particular interest to Smith is Rip Van Winkle, beaten three times by Sea The Stars and favourite for the Breeders' Cup Classic. Victory for Rip Van Winkle in what is arguably the world's most prestigious Flat race would boost Sea The Stars' reputation without him having to lift a leg.

"Whatever Rip Van Winkle's final rating, we will have Sea The Stars higher," says Smith. "He will be the best horse this year, no question, but his exact final rating is up for grabs.

"He's a really interesting horse. I'm still not totally sure I know how good he is. He's been running against good horses but not great horses and you tend to get an exceptionally high rating only by beating great horses.

"Also, he doesn't win by very far. That has meant he's been able to conserve energy and win six Group Ones in six months – he's such a professional, he just does enough. But the disadvantage is that we can't rate him exceptionally high."

Smith's team have assessed Sea The Stars as if he had won the Arc by four lengths, even though the actual margin was only two. But he points out that the horse carried less weight than the older horses in that race, to allow for his relative physical immaturity, another factor which makes his worth hard to assess.

"We may not be giving him the full credit he deserves," says Smith. "When they're only campaigned as three-year-olds, you're still slightly in the dark. We could be vastly under-rating him."

Greetham takes a different view. "He was very mature as a three-year-old, as you can see by the fact that he stood all that racing, so you wouldn't necessarily expect him to make the regulation progress as a four-year-old," he said.

"This is him, he's at his peak and I wouldn't have expected him to be better next year than he is now. He's a fully mature racehorse."

But, in the absence of further evidence, Smith's verdict on the horse will seem a terrible understatement to Sea The Stars' devotees. "He's certainly in the top five of the last 20 or 25 years. That's as far as I'm prepared to go.

"He's got that all-round combination of speed and middle-distance stamina, which is like a top-class boxer with a knock-out punch, it's always really exciting to see," said Jim McGrath, Channel 4's analyst.

A former chairman of Timeform, McGrath feels that ratings are most useful in identifying an "upper echelon" of horses. "Beyond that, as to which of them is best, it's a question of personal choice and you believe what you want to believe.

"We know for a fact that if we mix a pot of blue paint with a pot of yellow, we'll definitely get green. Over a matter like this, it's different.

"I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say he's better than Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard. He's set a wonderful standard and he's a fantastic racehorse but I don't think he's quite done enough."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/oct/13/sea-the-stars-joe-mercer

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Once again that is YOUR OPINION regardless of what anybody says you will never change YOUR OPINION about STS and that's well and great.
but a few experts disagree with your opinion.

As racing professionals rushed to praise Sea The Stars today, following news of his retirement, a rare note of scepticism was struck by Joe Mercer, a former champion jockey best remembered for his association with Brigadier Gerard in the early 1970s. Mercer said Sea The Stars, though impressive, was still not among the best three racehorses he had seen and cautioned against the effects of being swept up by momentary hype.

"I remember when Galileo won the King George [in 2001], they were raving about him being the best they'd ever seen," Mercer said. "You can't have a best horse you've ever seen every other year.

"I've always said Ribot was the best horse I've seen. Sea-Bird would be second and then the horse I rode, Brigadier Gerard. Sea The Stars has won six Group Ones, Brigadier Gerard won 13 and there isn't a horse that's got past him yet.

"You can't fault Sea The Stars – he's exceptional, he's got a fantastic temperament and fantastic looks. If he was a film star, he'd be top of the ranks. But half the people who are saying he's the best they've ever seen aren't old enough to have seen the best horses. I'm going back to the 1950s with Ribot."

There was less caution from others associated with great horses of the past, including Pat Eddery, who rode Dancing Brave to victory in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe of 1986. Eddery said Sea The Stars was "up there with the best" and laughed at a suggestion that he might resent the current champion being regarded as better than his horse.

Ian Balding, who trained Mill Reef to win the Derby and the Arc of 1971, said Sea The Stars was "right up there" with Sea-Bird, Ribot and Mill Reef and was "probably the best".

"He was lucky enough that he didn't have to try and beat Brigadier Gerard in the Guineas [as Mill Reef failed to do]. But he's a fabulous, fabulous racehorse in every way," Balding said.

Fans of Mill Reef can point to the fact that he stayed in training as a four-year-old and continued to win top-class races, but Balding said he has every sympathy with the decision to send Sea The Stars to stud after just two seasons on the track.

"These days, you can understand that this happens because they can make so much money," he said. "In Mill Reef's day, that wasn't an issue because you didn't cover more than 40 mares per year. Now, if you want to, you can cover 150 here and 150 in Australia."

Both Balding and Eddery expressed their relief that Sea The Stars would not be sent to America to contest next month's Breeders' Cup Classic, an exacting test which they feel the horse does not deserve after achieving so much. But his immediate retirement was a matter of regret for Geoff Greetham, who will have a great deal of influence over Sea The Stars' enduring reputation.

Greetham is publishing editor of the internationally respected Timeform annuals, whose ratings are widely accepted as definitive when it comes to assessing a horse's ability. He suspects that, without a trip to America, Sea The Stars will not end up with a rating that will satisfy the horse's many ardent fans.

"It is a shame he won't go to the Breeders' Cup," says Greetham. "If he was to win there, that would put him one step in front of the achievements of Dancing Brave, who had a very similar record and was beaten there.

"I didn't subscribe to the view that he had nothing left to prove. I would like to have seen him in America and he's still a horse who didn't win his races by more than he needed to. For that reason, he could still be better than his current rating."

Greetham expects that, when Timeform's 'Racehorses' annual is published in the spring, Sea The Stars will be left on his current mark of 140, making him as good as Dancing Brave and Shergar, but just behind Mill Reef and a few lengths adrift of Brigadier Gerard.

Sea The Stars is not even that good, according to Phil Smith, Britain's senior handicapper. On his figures, the horse is worth a rating of 135, well adrift of Dancing Brave on 141, though there is still a chance that his rating could be raised.

Smith will meet with his international colleagues in Hong Kong at the end of the year to thrash out final figures for this year's best horses. In the meantime, he will be keeping a close eye on the horses beaten by Sea The Stars – if they turn out to be better than previously thought, Sea The Stars' rating may go up.

Of particular interest to Smith is Rip Van Winkle, beaten three times by Sea The Stars and favourite for the Breeders' Cup Classic. Victory for Rip Van Winkle in what is arguably the world's most prestigious Flat race would boost Sea The Stars' reputation without him having to lift a leg.

"Whatever Rip Van Winkle's final rating, we will have Sea The Stars higher," says Smith. "He will be the best horse this year, no question, but his exact final rating is up for grabs.

"He's a really interesting horse. I'm still not totally sure I know how good he is. He's been running against good horses but not great horses and you tend to get an exceptionally high rating only by beating great horses.

"Also, he doesn't win by very far. That has meant he's been able to conserve energy and win six Group Ones in six months – he's such a professional, he just does enough. But the disadvantage is that we can't rate him exceptionally high."

Smith's team have assessed Sea The Stars as if he had won the Arc by four lengths, even though the actual margin was only two. But he points out that the horse carried less weight than the older horses in that race, to allow for his relative physical immaturity, another factor which makes his worth hard to assess.

"We may not be giving him the full credit he deserves," says Smith. "When they're only campaigned as three-year-olds, you're still slightly in the dark. We could be vastly under-rating him."

Greetham takes a different view. "He was very mature as a three-year-old, as you can see by the fact that he stood all that racing, so you wouldn't necessarily expect him to make the regulation progress as a four-year-old," he said.

"This is him, he's at his peak and I wouldn't have expected him to be better next year than he is now. He's a fully mature racehorse."

But, in the absence of further evidence, Smith's verdict on the horse will seem a terrible understatement to Sea The Stars' devotees. "He's certainly in the top five of the last 20 or 25 years. That's as far as I'm prepared to go.

"He's got that all-round combination of speed and middle-distance stamina, which is like a top-class boxer with a knock-out punch, it's always really exciting to see," said Jim McGrath, Channel 4's analyst.

A former chairman of Timeform, McGrath feels that ratings are most useful in identifying an "upper echelon" of horses. "Beyond that, as to which of them is best, it's a question of personal choice and you believe what you want to believe.

"We know for a fact that if we mix a pot of blue paint with a pot of yellow, we'll definitely get green. Over a matter like this, it's different.

"I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say he's better than Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard. He's set a wonderful standard and he's a fantastic racehorse but I don't think he's quite done enough."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/oct/13/sea-the-stars-joe-mercer

2,000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, Eclipse Stakes, International Stakes, Irish Champion Stakes, Prix de l'Arc de Triomph. That is the most successful classic season ever. You described the racehorse who won all of those races in the space of six months as being "very good". That article you quoted from was published in the wake of his Arc victory. they weren't discussing whether he was a great racehorse: they were the few voices dissenting from the prevailing opinion that he was the greatest racehorse ever! I agree with you that that is a question of personal opinion.

the groutch

thing is STS didn't beat much except for in the Arc itself.
Rip Van Winkle & Mastercraftsman wouldn't be all that high in the list of O'Brien's best, and Fame & Glory was being run at inadequate trips.

FIVE2_THREE

the groutch wrote: »

thing is STS didn't beat much except for in the Arc itself.
Rip Van Winkle & Mastercraftsman wouldn't be all that high in the list of O'Brien's best, and Fame & Glory was being run at inadequate trips.

Absolutely. this is horse racing and who you beat does matter. STS was a good horse to win those races but they lacked the depth. those races were not stacked with talent. Frankel defeated horses who account for a grand total of 56 G1 wins we will never see that again. Sea Bird's Arc had G1 winners coming in from all over the world. Dancing Brave defeated a star studded cast in his Arc. STS was good but aside from RVW and MC where who else did he beat ?

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Absolutely. this is horse racing and who you beat does matter. STS was a good horse to win those races but they lacked the depth. those races were not stacked with talent. a horse like Frankel defeated horses who account for a grand total of 56 G1 wins we will never see that again. Se Bird's Arc had G1 winners coming in from all over the world. Dancing Brave defeated a star studded cast in his Arc. STS was good but aside from RVW and MC where who else did he beat ?

I made a point of not mentioning the F word. but, now that you brought it up, how did he get on in the Derby and the Arc? Do you think Frankel could have done what STS did, and, if he think he could, why didn't he? How would you compare STS's Guineas (several multiple G1 winners) and Frankel's (some half decent handicappers and a lot of good 2-y-os who hadn't trained on.) There was only one other top class miler around when Frankel was doing his flat track bully thing, and that was Wise Dan.

ronsh2000

the groutch wrote: »

thing is STS didn't beat much except for in the Arc itself.
Rip Van Winkle & Mastercraftsman wouldn't be all that high in the list of O'Brien's best, and Fame & Glory was being run at inadequate trips.

Rip Van Winkle was very highly thought of at the time, and they expected great things from him. He was every bit as good as they expected him to be. He just met one better. Mastercraftsman won four or five G1s, so he wasn't bad either. Fame and Glory won the Irish Derby by five lengths.

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

I made a point of not mentioning the F word. but, now that you brought it up, how did he get on in the Derby and the Arc? Do you think Frankel could have done what STS did, and, if he think he could, why didn't he? How would you you compare STS's Guineas (several multiple G1 winners) and Frankel's (some half decent handicappers and a lot of good 2-y-os who hadn't trained on.) There was only one other top class miler around when Frankel was doing his flat track bully thing, and that was Wise Dan.

Wise Dan is a joke. he was getting his bottom spanked by Gio Ponti who was wayyy overrated. so to mention him in the same sentence as Frankel is blasphemy. Get back to me when Wise Dan wins a race with out the aid of drugs, then we can talk. even if you want to play the Frankel didn't run in the Derby card its worthless because there is still no doubt that he is the greatest miler EVER. STS isn't the greatest 12f horse ever. you don't beat horses who account for 56 G1 wins unless you're great.

tryfix

ronsh2000 wrote: »

Rip Van Winkle was very highly thought of at the time, and they expected great things from him. He was every bit as good as they expected him to be. He just met one better. Mastercraftsman won four or five G1s, so he wasn't bad either. Fame and Glory won the Irish Derby by five lengths.

STS beat the winners of approximately 49 GP 1s in a short career.

Rip Van Winkle 130, Fame and Glory 129 and Mastercraftsman 127 as three year olds racing against Sea The Stars all rated higher than the likes of Rock Of Gibraltar, Giant's Causeway, So You Think, Nathaniel, Henrythenavigator, George Washington, New Approach ever did.

Horses that rate 127 and over are rare beasts.

Sea The Stars had gears over 10f and further, Frankel wouldn't have been able to shake him off and would IMO have been beaten by STS over 10f. As was seen in the Irish Champion Stakes. O'Brien tried to beat STS by setting a pace that would break him, it didn't he had plenty in the locker.

There's very little between both horses, Frankel shades it in on official form because he was ridden and extended himself to a limit that STS never needed to do.

Frankel couldn't have completed STS's 3yo season, he just wasn't strong enough as a 3yo to put in the season that STS did. Both horse's greatness were a result of the trainers getting the max out of them. If Frankel had tried to do what STS did as a 3yo he'd have cracked under the pressure.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

STS beat the winners of approximately 49 GP 1s in a short career.

Rip Van Winkle 130, Fame and Glory 129 and Mastercraftsman 127 as three year olds racing against Sea The Stars all rated higher than the likes of Rock Of Gibraltar, Giant's Causeway, So You Think, Nathaniel, Henrythenavigator, George Washington, New Approach ever did.

Horses that rate 127 and over are rare beasts.

Sea The Stars had gears over 10f and further, Frankel wouldn't have been able to shake him off and would IMO have been beaten by STS over 10f. As was seen in the Irish Champion Stakes. O'Brien tried to beat STS by setting a pace that would break him, it didn't he had plenty in the locker.

There's very little between both horses, Frankel shades it in on official form because he was ridden and extended himself to a limit that STS never needed to do.

Frankel couldn't have completed STS's 3yo season, he just wasn't strong enough as a 3yo to put in the season that STS did. Both horse's greatness were a result of the trainers getting the max out of them. If Frankel had tried to do what STS did as a 3yo he'd have cracked under the pressure.

Same can be said for Frankel. lets not forget Coolmore spent millions on Excelebration. A horse who would have dominated had he not been born the same year as Frankel. In the international Ballydoyle deployed Robin hood and Windsor Palace as pacemakers for the Ultra Classy St.Nicholas Abbey and still Frankel Made him look normal. while STS had one Seller year Frankel had 3. Champion at 2,3,and 4. you can call it whatever you like but I prefer to see and champion return year after year for all to take their shot as oppose to a champion who runs toward the exit. it's not like STS won the triple crown. and then retired. the stud money was going to be there no matter what.

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Wise Dan is a joke. he was getting his bottom spanked by Gio Ponti who was wayyy overrated. so to mention him in the same sentence as Frankel is blasphemy. Get back to me when Wise Dan wins a race with out the aid of drugs, then we can talk. even if you want to play the Frankel didn't run in the Derby card its worthless because there is still no doubt that he is the greatest miler EVER. STS isn't the greatest 12f horse ever. you don't beat horses who account for 56 G1 wins unless you're great.

I agree that Frankel was a very good miler. It's just a pity he never ran against Wise Dan to see who was the best miler in the world. Any of the European horses who did take on Wise Dan, like Excelebration, got their asses served up to them.

ronsh2000

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Same can be said for Frankel. lets not forget Coolmore spent millions on Excelebration. A horse who would have dominated had he not been born the same year as Frankel. In the international Ballydoyle deployed Robin hood and Windsor Palace as pacemakers for the Ultra Classy St.Nicholas Abbey and still Frankel Made him look normal. while STS had one Seller year Frankel had 3. Champion at 2,3,and 4. you can call it whatever you like but I prefer to see and champion return year after year for all to take their shot as oppose to a champion who runs toward the exit. it's not like STS won the triple crown. and then retired. the stud money was going to be there no matter what.

It would have been impossible for STS to win the St Leger for the triple crown.The Irish Champion Stakes was on the same day. STS was an Irish horse and John Oxx had always made it clear that the Irish Champion was his long term target. The ICS is also a more prestigious race so it made more sense to go for it.

Harry Angstrom

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Its not a stick at all but more so of an open eye. STS was a very good horse but it's not like we haven't seen his like before. Mill reef, Nashwan and lammtara all have similar bodies of work. his derby wan't on the level of Shergar and his Arc lacked the depth of those won by Dancing Brave and Sea Bird. as I said he was a very good horse but the truth is we are likely to see another STS before we see another Frankel or Nijinsky.

Nijinsky didn't beat much in The Derby either, and he got beat by an ordinary enough horse in the Arc, albeit Piggott didn't give him the best of rides.
Sea The Stars was a horse who only just did enough, but he'd have plenty in reserve if Kinane needed it. I have no doubt that Sea The Stars would've given Frankel plenty to think about - I wouldn't be so confident that Nijinsky would've given Frankel much of a race though.

FIVE2_THREE

ronsh2000 wrote: »

I agree that Frankel was a very good miler. It's just a pity he never ran against Wise Dan to see who was the best miler in the world. Any of the European horses who did take on Wise Dan, like Excelebration, got their asses served up to them.

The best Miler ever was Frankel he did everything with NATURAL ABILITY Wise Dan has never won a race without Lasix or Bute. He may have beaten every Euro horse that He has raced against BUT PLANES FLY BOTH WAYS. I don't see team Wise Dan willing to come to Europe any other racing district where he can't get the needle.

FIVE2_THREE

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Nijinsky didn't beat much in The Derby either, and he got beat by an ordinary enough horse in the Arc, albeit Piggott didn't give him the best of rides.
Sea The Stars was a horse who only just did enough, but he'd have plenty in reserve if Kinane needed it. I have no doubt that Sea The Stars would've given Frankel plenty to think about - I wouldn't be so confident that Nijinsky would've given Frankel much of a race though.

I don't deal in absolutes. I let the numbers speak for them selves. I can't say who would have beaten who.. You all love to say STS did just enough but the Same can be said for Frankel I've never seen Frankel blowing or extended beyond ability. He routinely smashed top grade horses from his maiden race until his last race. as I said before people may not agree that Frankel is the greatest but I dare anybody to name a better miler in history who can match his body of work. the numbers don't lie. the form doesn't lie either.

Shemale

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

The best Miler ever was Frankel he did everything with NATURAL ABILITY Wise Dan has never won a race without Lasix or Bute. He may have beaten every Euro horse that He has raced against BUT PLANES FLY BOTH WAYS. I don't see team Wise Dan willing to come to Europe any other racing district where he can't get the needle.

LOL, you should marry Frankel.

I am astounded you break your neck to dismiss STS and nobody can say a word about Frankel.

Remind me again over a mile, whose Guineas was run in a quicker time on same ground? :rolleyes:

Shemale

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

You all love to say STS did just enough but the Same can be said for Frankel I've never seen Frankel blowing or extended beyond ability.

Its clear STS only did enough, he slowed when he hit the front and picked up when something was getting close, Kinane is on record saying he was only ever at 85%. Frankel was taking a fair blow towards the end of his Guineas.

FIVE2_THREE

Shemale wrote: »

LOL, you should marry Frankel.

I am astounded you break your neck to dismiss STS and nobody can say a word about Frankel.

Remind me again over a mile, whose Guineas was run in a quicker time on same ground? :rolleyes:

LOL. having a blow and still won the race by the 2nd greatest margin in history LOL hell of a blow