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Rent increase

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    murphaph wrote: »
    No! If a new lease is signed that is a rent review and rent is fixed at that until lease expires at least.



    Sorry if I'm beginning to sound a little thick. It's not deliberate I can assure you.


    I'd like to think that what you say is the case - as my friend has a lot riding on this - but the term "review" doesn't seem to be defined as being something that occurs when a lease is signed.


    I started this topic with the question "is an increase in rent possible through the duration of a lease". I have understood from the contributors here that it is not only possible (if the rent has not been reviewed within the last 12 months) but that the tenant is also obliged to pay the new rent for the duration of the previously agreed lease under new terms of the amount of rent payable (up to market value).


    If the signing of subsequent leases means that each signing counts as a review, then it would suggest that rents can't be increased until either:


    a) the current lease expires
    b) there is no current lease in place


    So my question is now simply, does the signing of a lease count as a review of the rent or not?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,254 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    RollYerOwn wrote: »
    If you move in under an agreement and the rent does not change during the duration of that lease - then it has not increased. Moving in is not itself an increase.


    If you move in under an agreement and the rent DOES change to a higher rent during that time, then it has increased. Once.


    My point is that I haven't seen any argument that this can't be done within the first year.

    When you move in and agree a price this can not change for 12 months. You made a ridiculous statement, now admit that, the statement you made was complete flawed


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 383 ✭✭surpy


    RollYerOwn wrote: »
    Sorry if I'm beginning to sound a little thick. It's not deliberate I can assure you.


    I'd like to think that what you say is the case - as my friend has a lot riding on this - but the term "review" doesn't seem to be defined as being something that occurs when a lease is signed.


    I started this topic with the question "is an increase in rent possible through the duration of a lease". I have understood from the contributors here that it is not only possible (if the rent has not been reviewed within the last 12 months) but that the tenant is also obliged to pay the new rent for the duration of the previously agreed lease under new terms of the amount of rent payable (up to market value).


    If the signing of subsequent leases means that each signing counts as a review, then it would suggest that rents can't be increased until either:


    a) the current lease expires
    b) there is no current lease in place


    So my question is now simply, does the signing of a lease count as a review of the rent or not?

    It's one or the other. You're either in a lease or not. If a lease is signed its a contract for that period. If none is signed a review could happen if none has taken place in the last 12 months.
    If you're in a lease you're stuck but rent can't go up.
    If you're not in a lease rent can go up but you can leave


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 383 ✭✭surpy


    RollYerOwn wrote: »
    Spot on. Thanks guys. Definitely clears up the first year of a tenancy. Good to see it specified.


    However, in the second year, if the rent was agreed to whatever level both tenant and landlord agree is appropriate, the rent can still be upped by the landlord to the area's "market value" despite the tenant not agreeing to that level to that particular property (which may not itself be worthy of "market value" for the area) and the tenant be forced to pay because they are bound to the lease?


    I believe the PRTB index does not distinguish between a 2-bed and 5-bed house in differing areas of Dublin for example...?

    Don't mind the prtb index so much. The legislation is for similar houses and specifies exactly what that means. That's what the challenge procedure is for. Use daft as a guide for what's achievable


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    surpy wrote: »
    It's one or the other. You're either in a lease or not. If a lease is signed its a contract for that period. If none is signed a review could happen if none has taken place in the last 12 months.
    If you're in a lease you're stuck but rent can't go up.
    If you're not in a lease rent can go up but you can leave



    I agree that that's how I think it should be. I hope it's how it is.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 383 ✭✭surpy


    24.—(1) In this Part “market rent”, in relation to the tenancy of a dwelling, means the rent which a willing tenant not already in occupation would give and a willing landlord would take for the dwelling, in each case on the basis of vacant possession being given, and having regard to—

    (a) the other terms of the tenancy, and

    (b) the letting values of dwellings of a similar size, type and character to the dwelling and situated in a comparable area to that in which it is situated


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    surpy wrote: »
    Don't mind the prtb index so much. The legislation is for similar houses and specifies exactly what that means. That's what the challenge procedure is for. Use daft as a guide for what's achievable



    Thanks for reply. Unfortunately with such a paucity of supply and advertised rents often being higher than are usually negotiated there's little to go on.


    I do accept that if there is little available on the market then that is a reality, but I would think that the PRTB would be able to provide more data as they should have the actual rents being agreed on the various types of property, wouldn't they?


    Anway I've digressed.


    Would still like to be sure that a re-signing of a continued lease counts as a rent review (in theory just because the rent may not have changed it doesn't mean that it hasn't been reviewed right?).


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    RollYerOwn wrote: »
    Thanks for reply. Unfortunately with such a paucity of supply and advertised rents often being higher than are usually negotiated there's little to go on.


    I do accept that if there is little available on the market then that is a reality, but I would think that the PRTB would be able to provide more data as they should have the actual rents being agreed on the various types of property, wouldn't they?


    Anway I've digressed.


    Would still like to be sure that a re-signing of a continued lease counts as a rent review (in theory just because the rent may not have changed it doesn't mean that it hasn't been reviewed right?).

    In certain areas advertised rents are far below what they actually go for.

    Does the lease set out the rental amount? If so that is contractually binding for the duration of said lease. Rather than asking us the same question over and over again why don't you explain the situation your friend is in and we can advise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    In certain areas advertised rents are far below what they actually go for.

    Does the lease set out the rental amount? If so that is contractually binding for the duration of said lease. Rather than asking us the same question over and over again why don't you explain the situation your friend is in and we can advise.



    It's pretty much as I have described.


    Has lived in property several years.
    Lease has been continually renewed.
    Rent did not increase on signing of current lease several months ago.
    Lease specifies the amount of rent.
    Lease is up in a 6 months time.
    Told within last two weeks that rent was going up in January.
    Will not be able to meet the 35% increase in the rent.




    I agree I have digressed in places so apologies for that, but I have reduced the responses down to the following situation.


    Rent can be reviewed every 12 months and landlord can put up to equal "Market Value" - however that is determined.
    So my question remains the same:


    Did the last signing of the lease constitute a rent review because the opportunity to review was obviously there or what constitutes a rent review?


    If signing a new lease is considered a review, then it is clear that the rent cannot be put up within 12 months of signing the lease.


    If this does not constitute a rent review, then the landlord is able to increase the rent with only 28 days notice and demand the tenant pays what is demanded under the other terms (and for the duration) of the existing lease.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    OP I'm open to correction but if you lodge a complaint with the PRTB the rent is frozen until a determination is made, although at that point you are liable for the back rent if they rule against you.

    I'd suggest doing this to get definitive answers to your questions. Also even if the law is on your side, the LL may still say you owe increase, you'll say you won't and no one will score any points for not doing the right thing and referring it to the PRTB.

    Best of luck with it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    OP I'm open to correction but if you lodge a complaint with the PRTB the rent is frozen until a determination is made, although at that point you are liable for the back rent if they rule against you.

    I'd suggest doing this to get definitive answers to your questions. Also even if the law is on your side, the LL may still say you owe increase, you'll say you won't and no one will score any points for not doing the right thing and referring it to the PRTB.

    Best of luck with it.


    Thanks. I agree the PRTB is the way to go as my friend has approached Threshold who have said they can't do anything with an existing lease in place. Not sure what that means tbh!


    Reasons for the urgent posting here is the sudden unaffordable increase in rent which is to kick in shortly after Christmas. As you can imagine we're quite worried as there is a child involved that may need to be taken out of school and a move to a different county. Would like to at least have some reassurance that she can stay there til the end of her lease which would give her time to deal with it.


    Sorry if that results in repeated questions along the same lines I just figured it seems to come down to the definition of what a review is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    No, not at all, sometime the question needs to be repeated over and over again on boards :). In all honesty I don't know the answer to the question, common sense would imply that one a lease in in place that was the opportunity to do the review, however not being familiar with the legislation and decisions based on it I can't comment.

    Given how long the PRTB take to do anything a complaint with them might give you breathing room and/or get the LL to cop on a bit and perhaps come to an amicable solution.

    Other than that what I would do is continue to faithfully pay the current rent on time (without fail) and deal with it after the lease has finished. Leave the place in excellent order, take loads of photographs and move out a day or so early. You can then fight over the deposit if you wish.

    OP I offer this advice STRICTLY as what I would do as a lay-tenant while I got advice from Threshold, FLAC and the PRTB. ALL THAT SAID - there seems to be enough time to get this resolved through the correct channels.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    No, not at all, sometime the question needs to be repeated over and over again on boards :). In all honesty I don't know the answer to the question, common sense would imply that one a lease in in place that was the opportunity to do the review, however not being familiar with the legislation and decisions based on it I can't comment.

    Given how long the PRTB take to do anything a complaint with them might give you breathing room and/or get the LL to cop on a bit and perhaps come to an amicable solution.

    Other than that what I would do is continue to faithfully pay the current rent on time (without fail) and deal with it after the lease has finished. Leave the place in excellent order, take loads of photographs and move out a day or so early. You can then fight over the deposit if you wish.

    OP I offer this advice STRICTLY as what I would do as a lay-tenant while I got advice from Threshold, FLAC and the PRTB. ALL THAT SAID - there seems to be enough time to get this resolved through the correct channels.



    Very much appreciated. Thanks.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    A lease is a contract between the landlord and tenant. The terms of the contract can't be amended after the fact unless the amendment is agreed by both parties OR such variation is provided for within the contract.

    If the lease does not have a provision for a rent review, then there is no provision for a rent review.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    Graham wrote: »
    A lease is a contract between the landlord and tenant. The terms of the contract can't be amended after the fact unless the amendment is agreed by both parties OR such variation is provided for within the contract.

    If the lease does not have a provision for a rent review, then there is no provision for a rent review.



    Thanks but I think Surpy covered that well with the link to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 - section 21.


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/print.html


    A review doesn't appear to have to be specified for either side to be entitled to review. Question I'm stuck on is what defines a review has taken place in the case of a renewed lease.


    Is it a new tenancy each time a lease is agreed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    RollYerOwn wrote: »
    It's pretty much as I have described.


    Has lived in property several years.
    Lease has been continually renewed.
    Rent did not increase on signing of current lease several months ago.
    Lease specifies the amount of rent.
    Lease is up in a 6 months time.

    Told within last two weeks that rent was going up in January.
    Will not be able to meet the 35% increase in the rent.




    I agree I have digressed in places so apologies for that, but I have reduced the responses down to the following situation.


    Rent can be reviewed every 12 months and landlord can put up to equal "Market Value" - however that is determined.
    So my question remains the same:


    Did the last signing of the lease constitute a rent review because the opportunity to review was obviously there or what constitutes a rent review?


    If signing a new lease is considered a review, then it is clear that the rent cannot be put up within 12 months of signing the lease.


    If this does not constitute a rent review, then the landlord is able to increase the rent with only 28 days notice and demand the tenant pays what is demanded under the other terms (and for the duration) of the existing lease.

    Your friend has a contract in place to pay X rent until X date. This cannot be changed until then. When the lease expires in 6 months a rent review can take place and a new rent be decided, this rent review can push the rent up or down, but in light of current market trends it is to be expected it will rise. If your friend disagrees that this new rent is in line with market rates they can appeal. If your friend believes the rent is in line with market rates but they cannot pay them then they must give appropriate notice and move out.

    Your friend can always negotiate a lower rent - they are a model tenant, the house wont be left empty for any time etc etc.,


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Rent review
    It is also important to note the level of rent can be renegotiated at the expiry of the lease by both landlord and tenant. Otherwise, the rent charged must be as set out in the agreement.
    For a full breakdown of the legal position with regard to breaking a fixed term tenancy, please see Terminating a Fixed Term Tenancy

    http://www.prtb.ie/search-results/news/article/2014/02/11/breaking-a-fixed-term-lease


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