abuse of the unemployed by the DSP through gateway, jobbridge,momentum,etc

king2

I am starting this thread for Unemployed people to vent their anger and frustration at being forced to partake in schemes such as Gateway or Tus, momentum courses etc by the DSP under threat of having their payment stopped. DSP supporters or bashers of the unemployed are not welcome here.They can post on the "state benefits" forum which appears to be run by the DSP who will ban anyone from the forum who criticises them or the government.

I was placed on a "personal progression plan" by the DSP last August.I had to attend a group information session and about a week later had to meet a case officer. As soon as the meeting with the case officer began it became clear that it probably was not going to end until I agreed to sign up for some kind of course. After about 20 mins of this harassment I was starting to get annoyed and asked was it the case that I had to do a course, was I not fulfilling the eligibility requirements of Jobseekers Allowance by being available and looking for work. The Crazy Cow backed off then and I got away.

She rang me again a few weeks ago and asked would I be interested in doing some course that I knew would be totally useless to me."Sure wud u not go to the interview anyway" I said I would have a look at it on the net to which she replied, "u hav to b doin things, u hav to b doin things" and ended the call. She really is a damented old bat.

I got an unsigned letter a few days later with a list of 5 "momentum" courses stating that I had to apply for one and if I did not my payment would be affected.None of the courses were of any interest or relevance to me. I picked one called "medical and pharmaceutical devices." I had to attend a group information session about it a few days ago where me and about 30 others were given an aptitude test! I made it clear that I did not want to be there and didnt perform on the test so hopefully I wont be called for the course. Its 6 months long, 2 of which are unpaid work placement or slave labour as I told them. You then get a "fetac level 6" whatever the hell that is which will only qualify you to work in a factory as a production operator!

Unemployed people need to get together and form an organisation to fight this abuse. The Government is wasting public money paying private companies to run these useless courses so that they can artificially reduce the live register figures. As for the gateway and tus schemes, absolutely despicable slave labour. Jobbridge is little better with unscrupulous employers trying to dress up menial jobs so that they call them "internships" and use the Unemployed for free labour.

Please share your experiences of coercive abuse by the DSP

the_syco

What sort of job are you hoping to get into, and is there any courses that may allow you to do so?

salamanca22

I am going to context this with the fact I was long term unemployed in the past I was made to do a TUS placement so I have insight into this.

Unemployed people need to take a little responsibility for their situation. I am not talking about the people who were left redundant or who are only on unemployment benefits in the short term. I am talking about the unemployed person who has become complacent for lack of a better term for their situation.

If you are on benefits for so long that you are being called upon to do TUS or jobbridge you have to look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what the hell am I doing. Why am I unemployed so long, am I uneducated? Am I unskilled? Have I become so used to my situation I couldn't possibly change it now? Or indeed are the reasons more deep such as depression?

Then ask yourself what can you do? It could be as easy as stepping up your game and handing out more CV's or upping your interview game. However if you are not getting any job whatsoever, and saying no to a job just because you are not interested in it is not a valid excuse in the short term, then you have to look into other options. These options do include jobbridge, fás courses and TUS. You cannot stay unemployed forever, it is just not fair on the rest of society! You have to do something!

Being a long term unemployed person I have to say the best option is to go to college as a mature student. This allows you to do what you like and in the future get gainful employment in the area where you do see yourself.

Again, I hope whoever reads this reads it with the context I supplied at the start.

TL:DR There are plenty of options out there for the long term unemployed, staying unemployed should not be one of them.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

king2 wrote: »

I am starting this thread for Unemployed people to vent their anger and frustration at being forced to partake in schemes such as Gateway or Tus, momentum courses etc by the DSP under threat of having their payment stopped. DSP supporters or bashers of the unemployed are not welcome here.They can post on the "state benefits" forum which appears to be run by the DSP who will ban anyone from the forum who criticises them or the government.

I was placed on a "personal progression plan" by the DSP last August.I had to attend a group information session and about a week later had to meet a case officer. As soon as the meeting with the case officer began it became clear that it probably was not going to end until I agreed to sign up for some kind of course. After about 20 mins of this harassment I was starting to get annoyed and asked was it the case that I had to do a course, was I not fulfilling the eligibility requirements of Jobseekers Allowance by being available and looking for work. The Crazy Cow backed off then and I got away.

She rang me again a few weeks ago and asked would I be interested in doing some course that I knew would be totally useless to me."Sure wud u not go to the interview anyway" I said I would have a look at it on the net to which she replied, "u hav to b doin things, u hav to b doin things" and ended the call. She really is a damented old bat.

I got an unsigned letter a few days later with a list of 5 "momentum" courses stating that I had to apply for one and if I did not my payment would be affected.None of the courses were of any interest or relevance to me. I picked one called "medical and pharmaceutical devices." I had to attend a group information session about it a few days ago where me and about 30 others were given an aptitude test! I made it clear that I did not want to be there and didnt perform on the test so hopefully I wont be called for the course. Its 6 months long, 2 of which are unpaid work placement or slave labour as I told them. You then get a "fetac level 6" whatever the hell that is which will only qualify you to work in a factory as a production operator!

Unemployed people need to get together and form an organisation to fight this abuse. The Government is wasting public money paying private companies to run these useless courses so that they can artificially reduce the live register figures. As for the gateway and tus schemes, absolutely despicable slave labour. Jobbridge is little better with unscrupulous employers trying to dress up menial jobs so that they call them "internships" and use the Unemployed for free labour.

Please share your experiences of coercive abuse by the DSP

You put similiar effort into finding work as you seem to be into avoiding co-operating with DSP and you'll have a job in no time!!!

Mrs OBumble

king2 wrote: »

DSP supporters or bashers of the unemployed are not welcome here....

She rang me again a few weeks ago and asked would I be interested in doing some course that I knew would be totally useless to me."Sure wud u not go to the interview anyway" I said I would have a look at it on the net to which she replied, "u hav to b doin things, u hav to b doin things" and ended the call. She really is a damented old bat.
....
You then get a "fetac level 6" whatever the hell that is ...

Mod-note:

king2, welcome to the Work and Jobs forum. I think we need to get a few things straight:

Firstly, discussion on this forum is governed by the forum charter. Everyone who observes this charter is welcome here. That doesn't mean they have all have agree - we're quite open to alternative view points and even blunt statements. But all anyone has to do is be civil, ie polite. It's not for you or any poster to say that people with certain attitudes aren't welcome.

Second, please don't use txt spk (eg "u hav to be doin things") - this a boards.ie wide rule, not just Work and Jobs.

Third, please don't use words like "crazy cow" when describing employees doing their jobs. I understand that you may not like what they are doing - but they are workers and should be treated with at least basic politeness.

It's fine to have discussion about difficulties people are having on the various employment schemes - but please realise that you will likely get some suggestions about how you can get around these, not just sympathy.

Hopefully there will be someone along soon who can explain what FETAC awards are all about (I'm a bit vague about them myself) and how starting off as a production operator can be a way to build a good career for yourself.

madmaggie

Amazing how some things never change. I went through the work placement schemes of the 1980's, doing courses I wasn't that interested in, but put in the effort anyway. I did eventually get a job as a production operative, earning a wage that was comparable to a bank clerk at the time. Stayed with that for 20 years, and not sorry. It was good honest work, and a lot of my workmates put their kids through college and paid mortgages out of their factory work.

davo10

king2 wrote: »

I am starting this thread for Unemployed people to vent their anger and frustration at being forced to partake in schemes such as Gateway or Tus, momentum courses etc by the DSP under threat of having their payment stopped. DSP supporters or bashers of the unemployed are not welcome here.They can post on the "state benefits" forum which appears to be run by the DSP who will ban anyone from the forum who criticises them or the government.

I was placed on a "personal progression plan" by the DSP last August.I had to attend a group information session and about a week later had to meet a case officer. As soon as the meeting with the case officer began it became clear that it probably was not going to end until I agreed to sign up for some kind of course. After about 20 mins of this harassment I was starting to get annoyed and asked was it the case that I had to do a course, was I not fulfilling the eligibility requirements of Jobseekers Allowance by being available and looking for work. The Crazy Cow backed off then and I got away.

She rang me again a few weeks ago and asked would I be interested in doing some course that I knew would be totally useless to me."Sure wud u not go to the interview anyway" I said I would have a look at it on the net to which she replied, "u hav to b doin things, u hav to b doin things" and ended the call. She really is a damented old bat.

I got an unsigned letter a few days later with a list of 5 "momentum" courses stating that I had to apply for one and if I did not my payment would be affected.None of the courses were of any interest or relevance to me. I picked one called "medical and pharmaceutical devices." I had to attend a group information session about it a few days ago where me and about 30 others were given an aptitude test! I made it clear that I did not want to be there and didnt perform on the test so hopefully I wont be called for the course. Its 6 months long, 2 of which are unpaid work placement or slave labour as I told them. You then get a "fetac level 6" whatever the hell that is which will only qualify you to work in a factory as a production operator!

Unemployed people need to get together and form an organisation to fight this abuse. The Government is wasting public money paying private companies to run these useless courses so that they can artificially reduce the live register figures. As for the gateway and tus schemes, absolutely despicable slave labour. Jobbridge is little better with unscrupulous employers trying to dress up menial jobs so that they call them "internships" and use the Unemployed for free labour.

Please share your experiences of coercive abuse by the DSP

If ever validation was needed for having such courses, OP your post would be a great example of why they are necessary. If you are not attempting to improve your chances of finding work, never mind "free labour", you are receiving "free benefit money".

I think most would like to see some inducement for getting back to work and courses like you describe appear to be some initiative being shown by both the Government who provide them and the people who attend them.

Minderbinder

it must be terrible having people in your face offering you free education and work experience. you poor thing .

Clauric

I wouldn't normally post on one of these threads, but in this case I have experienced both sides of it.

I was unemployed for about 4.5 years. I was a QS in a building firm, and was laid off at Christmas in 2008. I had no qualifications, and only a couple of years experience. There was no jobs out there.

What did I do? I researched the Labour Market Activation courses that were being run by FAS and the HEA. I got myself onto one, and spent 4 years getting a free education. I eventually finished top on my class with a 1st class honours degree and now work for a major US bank in Dublin.

During that time, I went into FAS every few weeks to sign on. When I was down there, I took the opportunity to talk to the person in charge of my case, and see if there was anything they suggested. I ended up doing a WPP2 internship, a CE scheme and a Jobbridge internship. All except the Jobbridge were useful. I also did an extra course, paid for by FAS (it pays to read their rules) in areas slightly outside where I was aiming for, as it greatly improved my skill set.

But by volunteering to do the courses, the employment schemes and keeping them up to date, I wasn't "forced" to do any of the courses or schemes I didn't want to do.

However: When the new rules came in, late last year, I got a new case officer. They didn't understand what I had done, and insisted that I attend one of these group meetings, and also sent me forward for a level 5 course in the area I had just got a level 8 (Honours) degree. I went to the interview for the course and kindly explained to the person what the situation was. They told me that I could probably teach the course and agreed I wasn't suitable for it.

I went to the group meeting, and was asked to do the one on one interview with the support officer that was there. The day selected for the interview was also the day that I going for the interview for the US bank. I promised that I would attend with the support office if nothing came of the interview, but I got the job, so I never did need to attend. I did let them know I got the job, out of courtesy.

The moral of my story, I guess, is to always engage with FAS (or whatever they call themselves these days). Even if you don't like what they have to say, just go to their meetings, their talks and their course interviews. The people there will quickly suss out if you are suitable for a place on the course, or have an aptitude for a particular field.

Whatever you do, don't go in to talk to FAS if you can't, at least, say to them that you are interested in X, and that you saw a course/internship offering Y that could lead to X, based on the job descriptions (that you have with you). Unless you are proactive, they will tar you and everybody who is resisting them with the same brush (this comes from watching friends doing the same thing as you are doing OP).

Best of luck.

allibastor

Hi King2

I work in recruitment.
Can I ask you a few questions?

What level of education do you have
What sort of specialist work experience do you have
What sort of managerial experience do you have
What sort of skillset do you have
What type of projects/ jobs have you worked on in the past

Just to get a sense of what you are able to offer an employer

anonyanony

allibastor wrote: »

Hi King2

I work in recruitment.
Can I ask you a few questions?

What level of education do you have
What sort of specialist work experience do you have
What sort of managerial experience do you have
What sort of skillset do you have
What type of projects/ jobs have you worked on in the past

Just to get a sense of what you are able to offer an employer

Should you not be asking what the employer can offer him, I mean he gets on fine with the dole what can the employer offer him to make it worthwhile to give up his free time.

allibastor

anonyanony wrote: »

Should you not be asking what the employer can offer him, I mean he gets on fine with the dole what can the employer offer him to make it worthwhile to give up his free time.

No I shouldn't. Even as a joke it is irritating as this attitude is why people will never get up off their backsides.

anonyanony

allibastor wrote: »

No I shouldn't. Even as a joke it is irritating as this attitude is why people will never get up off their backsides.

Not a joke, if he is getting on fine with the dole his employer needs to make it worthwhile to work, look at the likes of tesco where you get min wage so not much better then dole, forced to stay late, can be called in at anytime, no set working hour some weeks 40 some weeks 10 so you might get less the the dole but as you are on call you cannot arrange to do things. What incentive is there to take that job.

Employers need to treat the workforce better and stop taking them for granted.

allibastor

anonyanony wrote: »

Not a joke, if he is getting on fine with the dole his employer needs to make it worthwhile to work, look at the likes of tesco where you get min wage so not much better then dole, forced to stay late, can be called in at anytime, no set working hour some weeks 40 some weeks 10 so you might get less the the dole but as you are on call you cannot arrange to do things. What incentive is there to take that job.

Employers need to treat the workforce better and stop taking them for granted.

The incentive is to have a job, to gain some new skills or possibly get a promotion.
Sitting on your backside while you are fully able to work is a joke.

anonyanony

allibastor wrote: »

The incentive is to have a job, to gain some new skills or possibly get a promotion.
Sitting on your backside while you are fully able to work is a joke.

Min wage job in a shop or garage is not going to gain you any skills or a promotion, it might be OK if they offered set working hours, but weeks where you get maybe 10 hours spread over 5 days means you get way less then the dole.

These employers don't care about the staff and use people to cover the busy times rather then give them an 8 hour day. It's counter productive to take it, same with the ce scheme you won't get any skills working in the svp for 20hrs a week.

Job bridge is as bad any of the good ones you already need a qualification to do which makes them pointless they don't want to take unskilled people and train them, they want qualified people to work for cheep.

Employers have taken for granted workers telling them they don't like it they can stuff it, well now people are doing fine without them so they neef to make it worthwhile to work for them, a steady 40hr week at a reasonable wage will be a start also not thinking that they are doing people a huge favour giving them a min wage job.

chrysagon

Just to cut long story short, i lost my job 2008.. applied for jobs all over the place, barely got a reply, i was a supervisor, on decent money, to finding that even a reply was almost impossible..

i went to FAS, had discussions, offered courses, did them, just for my sanity, but actually learned a bit as well, even from fellow classmates with huge experience between them all.

Finally got an interview.. had to do 2 interviews and medical to get the job, thankfully got it, good wages, always increasing, but during the interview, which lasted an hour, one of the interviewers asked me about my time unemployed, and made refernce to the courses i did, and remarked it was great to see something not dwell on the past, but willing to try anything to get back in workforce, it gave me goosepimples, and the rest is history!

no oine said its easy to get back into the workforce, but if you dont focus and push yourself, no one else will !!

doc11

Clauric wrote: »

During that time, I went into FAS every few weeks to sign on. When I was down there, I took the opportunity to talk to the person in charge of my case, and see if there was anything they suggested. I ended up doing a WPP2 internship, a CE scheme and a Jobbridge internship. All except the Jobbridge were useful. I also did an extra course, paid for by FAS (it pays to read their rules) in areas slightly outside where I was aiming for, as it greatly improved my skill set.

Why was the job bridge position so bad?

the_syco

anonyanony wrote: »

Min wage job in a shop or garage is not going to gain you any skills or a promotion, it might be OK if they offered set working hours, but weeks where you get maybe 10 hours spread over 5 days means you get way less then the dole.

Although Dunnes, etc, are known for their "zero hour" contracts, if you don't try to get a job, you'll be thrown into a deeper hole when they cut the dole again.

P_1

They are there to help you get you a job, not your dream job, simply a job. You'll expend far more energy and expose yourself to more hassle if you don't engage with them.

However, that's not to suggest that you should blindly follow what they tell you. Identify what job it is you want to get, identify what is preventing you from getting that job, find out what tools they can offer you to bridge that gap and use them.

hagoonabear

Being on the dole is soul destroying why in gods name would you refuse courses? I'm unemployed for the last 3 years have applied to jobs all over Ireland got interviews but didn't get the jobs hoping to start a job bridge soon fingers crossed . Ideally in your free time you should be upskilling yourself I try my hardest while raising my one year old daughter to make life better for us .

I don't know why anyone would stay on the dole makes you lazy and ungrateful , educate yourself it will be worth it

Gringo180

hagoonabear wrote: »

Being on the dole is soul destroying why in gods name would you refuse courses? I'm unemployed for the last 3 years have applied to jobs all over Ireland got interviews but didn't get the jobs hoping to start a job bridge soon fingers crossed . Ideally in your free time you should be upskilling yourself I try my hardest while raising my one year old daughter to make life better for us .

I don't know why anyone would stay on the dole makes you lazy and ungrateful , educate yourself it will be worth it

Just because it is soul destroying for you and makes you feel ungrateful and lazy it doesnt mean it makes other people feel the same. I agree with the poster above in that employers should treat there staff better. 8.65 per hour is an insult, how could a person survive on such a wage. And see these zero hour contracts they should be illegal.

anonyanony

the_syco wrote: »

Although Dunnes, etc, are known for their "zero hour" contracts, if you don't try to get a job, you'll be thrown into a deeper hole when they cut the dole again.

Do you think they check if you are looking? if you do your fate in the system is way too high.

ArtSmart

I'm assuming (yes assuming) that the OP means a relevant course and that he/she is qualified up to degree level - so offering level 5 fetac is utterly inappropriate.

However other more appropriate course probably do exist - but not always.

The real issue is the balance between meaningful retraining, and the cost of meaningful retraining/training. Basic fetac course with little hard resources are cheaper to run and pay for.

Then the dole figures issue, where AFAIK, activation courses are not included in various tabulations - so may well be used to massage the dole stats.

In short, it aint as simple a situation as it may appear.

king2

salamanca22 wrote: »

I am going to context this with the fact I was long term unemployed in the past I was made to do a TUS placement so I have insight into this.

Unemployed people need to take a little responsibility for their situation. I am not talking about the people who were left redundant or who are only on unemployment benefits in the short term. I am talking about the unemployed person who has become complacent for lack of a better term for their situation.

If you are on benefits for so long that you are being called upon to do TUS or jobbridge you have to look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what the hell am I doing. Why am I unemployed so long, am I uneducated? Am I unskilled? Have I become so used to my situation I couldn't possibly change it now? Or indeed are the reasons more deep such as depression?

Then ask yourself what can you do? It could be as easy as stepping up your game and handing out more CV's or upping your interview game. However if you are not getting any job whatsoever, and saying no to a job just because you are not interested in it is not a valid excuse in the short term, then you have to look into other options. These options do include jobbridge, fás courses and TUS. You cannot stay unemployed forever, it is just not fair on the rest of society! You have to do something!

Being a long term unemployed person I have to say the best option is to go to college as a mature student. This allows you to do what you like and in the future get gainful employment in the area where you do see yourself.

Again, I hope whoever reads this reads it with the context I supplied at the start.

TL:DR There are plenty of options out there for the long term unemployed, staying unemployed should not be one of them.

You do not have to be unemployed very long before being victimised by the DSP and forced onto Gateway, Tus or Momentum. This happens after as little as 3 Months. I am looking for work and applying for Jobs, the reason I am not getting one is because there are 400,000 people unemployed.Most People on Gateway Tus or momentum do not find work after, They end up back on the Dole. The Government and DSP and People like You wrongly blame Unemployed People for their situation. The Government, because it takes the focus off them to do anything about it. They waste public money on these ridiculous momentum courses instead of spending it trying to create Jobs

the_syco

anonyanony wrote: »

Do you think they check if you are looking? if you do your fate in the system is way too high.

No faith in the system, but if you don't look, and the dole gets cut again, there'll just be more people looking for jobs.

king2

davo10 wrote: »

If ever validation was needed for having such courses, OP your post would be a great example of why they are necessary. If you are not attempting to improve your chances of finding work, never mind "free labour", you are receiving "free benefit money".

I think most would like to see some inducement for getting back to work and courses like you describe appear to be some initiative being shown by both the Government who provide them and the people who attend them.

Sounds like you are another of the race to the bottom breed who think that Unemployed people should be made work for their payment.Making unemployed people work for their payment devalues Work and helps the case of those who want to lower the minimum wage, as if it wasnt low enough. If unemployment benefit has to be worked for then it ceases to be unemployment benefit.Instead It becomes a totally unjust low wage for doing forced labour.

davo10

king2 wrote: »

Sounds like you are another of the race to the bottom breed who think that Unemployed people should be made work for their payment.Making unemployed people work for their payment devalues Work and helps the case of those who want to lower the minimum wage, as if it wasnt low enough. If unemployment benefit has to be worked for then it ceases to be unemployment benefit.Instead It becomes a totally unjust low wage for doing forced labour.

Ireland has one of the highest minimum wages in Europe, similar to Germany (theirs is €12 pm higher) higher than France and the UK, twice as high as Spain, three times higher than Portugal, yet you think it is an insult? I think anything that helps the unemployed have a better chance of gaining employment can only be beneficial. As another poster has said, these courses are free to you and by not doing them, you are at a disadvantage to those that have done them when applying for the same job.

Out of interest king2, what is your are of expertise? What qualifications do you have?

MouseTail

king2 wrote: »

You do not have to be unemployed very long before being victimised by the DSP and forced onto Gateway, Tus or Momentum. This happens after as little as 3 Months.

These schemes are aimed at the long term unemployed, 1 year and more (2 in the case of of Gateway). You definitely wouldn't and couldn't be put on one after 3 months.

king2

davo10 wrote: »

Ireland has one of the highest minimum wages in Europe, similar to Germany (theirs is €12 pm higher) higher than France and the UK, twice as high as Spain, three times higher than Portugal, yet you think it is an insult? I think anything that helps the unemployed have a better chance of gaining employment can only be beneficial. As another poster has said, these courses are free to you and by not doing them, you are at a disadvantage to those that have done them when applying for the same job.

Out of interest king2, what is your are of expertise? What qualifications do you have?

Did I say it was an insult? The minimum wage is too low but I would accept a Job on it.Sorry, I dont want to disclose my area of expertise here

littleblackDRS

king2 wrote: »

Sounds like you are another of the race to the bottom breed who think that Unemployed people should be made work for their payment.Making unemployed people work for their payment devalues Work and helps the case of those who want to lower the minimum wage, as if it wasnt low enough. If unemployment benefit has to be worked for then it ceases to be unemployment benefit.Instead It becomes a totally unjust low wage for doing forced labour.

I'm really struggling to understand the bit I've bolded. Unemployed people shouldn't be made earn the money they're being given, like employed people have to? Am I missing something completely obvious?

Edited to add: Working an average week (35 hours) on minimum wage works out at just over €300 a week. I really don't think that's anything to be sniffed at...

anonyanony

king2 wrote: »

Did I say it was an insult? The minimum wage is too low but I would accept a Job on it.Sorry, I dont want to disclose my area of expertise here

The problem with most min wage jobs is not the money per hour, it's zero hour contracts, if you cannot get 40hrs a week you can end up on way less then the dole, you can't even top it up with the dole if you get low hrs cause you get called in for a few hrs each day. They need to sort zero hour jobs before raising min wage.

davo10

king2 wrote: »

Did I say it was an insult? The minimum wage is too low but I would accept a Job on it.Sorry, I dont want to disclose my area of expertise here

Raising minimum wage would mean increased cost base for struggling businesses and in some cases jeopardise jobs therefore increasing unemployment and competition for available jobs. I think there is a touch of the Rab C Nesbitts here, you want your benefits, you don't want to improve your skill set by training on free courses, if you do get a job, you want to be paid more even though you put no additional effort into making yourself more employable. And to cap it all off, you have a chip on your shoulder that causes you to insult anyone who disagrees with you, nice.

There are those that say the gap between benefits and minimum wage is too narrow and that because we have both among the highest minimum wage and benefit rate in Europe, the incentive to take minimum wage jobs is not strong enough.

MouseTail

You're unemployed at least a year OP, every month that passes you are moving further from the labour market, and the higher your wage penalty will be when you re enter it. Without knowing your skill set or education background, it is hard to advise, but if you want to work, you need to take action sooner rather than later to make yourself employable.

the_syco

davo10 wrote: »

Ireland has one of the highest minimum wages in Europe, similar to Germany (theirs is €12 pm higher) higher than France and the UK, twice as high as Spain, three times higher than Portugal, yet you think it is an insult?

Germanys social welfare isn't for life, however, and you can be put into a €1 per hour job if you're not careful!

anonyanony wrote: »

They need to sort zero hour jobs before raising min wage.

If min wage goes up, you may have more money, but you can only spend it on the same amount of things, as everything else tends to rise as well.

=-=

Social Welfare is sometimes called the poverty trap, as it's hard to get out of it. To get off it, you'll be often not getting any money for a month, and without savings, this is often the excuse given by larger families for staying on the dole.

anonyanony

the_syco wrote: »

Germanys social welfare isn't for life, however, and you can be put into a €1 per hour job if you're not careful!


If min wage goes up, you may have more money, but you can only spend it on the same amount of things, as everything else tends to rise as well.

=-=

Social Welfare is sometimes called the poverty trap, as it's hard to get out of it. To get off it, you'll be often not getting any money for a month, and without savings, this is often the excuse given by larger families for staying on the dole.

That's why I said we have more issues with min wage jobs then the actual wage, I would never expect someone to take a zero hour job as you will get less overall then the dole the employers don't respect you and you won't advance.

smcgiff

There's a sense here that now that I'm too old for mammy and daddy to look after me I want the government to do it.

Blaming the government of an open economy like Ireland for not having a job is strange.

You've not given a huge amount of information OP, and what you have doesn't paint you in the best light.

There have been a few posts on this thread already that have shown what determination can achieve.

the_syco

king2 wrote: »

They waste public money on these ridiculous momentum courses instead of spending it trying to create Jobs

I have to laugh at this bit, as the only wasted money is the money spent with no return. These "ridiculous momentum courses" probably gives a better long-term return over giving dole money.

Also, to create jobs, you have to train people, which the "ridiculous momentum courses" seem to be doing.

Mrs OBumble

anonyanony wrote: »

The problem with most min wage jobs is not the money per hour, it's zero hour contracts, if you cannot get 40hrs a week you can end up on way less then the dole, you can't even top it up with the dole if you get low hrs cause you get called in for a few hrs each day. They need to sort zero hour jobs before raising min wage.

I totally agree: During the recession I spent a bit of time temping in a job that paid 9.50ph. Quite a bit more than minmum wage - until you factor in that the max hours per week was 35, so effectively I was getting the equivalent of minimum wage.

Personally I liked being unemployed, and the freedom it gave me to learn new skills and explore new things: In two years, I reckon I learned more about websites, SEO, the consumer internet, geography and various other things than I'd learned in the previous 5 years of work. But it was all informal and undocumented, so didn't really help me get a job. And I disliked not having any money to spare, so was quite happy to take minimum wage if that was the best I could get.

But this thread isn't about minimum wage rates, it's about training courses, community work and internship jobs.

destiny6

To a certain extent I can understand OPs frustration. After I graduated this year I immediately started to look for work in areas I was interested in. Unfortunately I felt my lack of experience was holding me back. I therefore don't necessarily think Job Bridge is a bad scheme because of the experience it helps to give. I just got accepted for an internship in an area I am really interested in working and I feel the experience I will gain is going to help me. Yes its sucks that I will have to work for 150 euro a week but its better than getting 100 euro a week, sitting at home and getting no experience!

Having said that, I do have a problem with the way the whole thing is set up. Firstly you have to be 3 months unemployed to even apply for job bridge which I was shocked by. I don't understand the point behind that. Secondly those meetings they call you to are absolutely dumbed down. They mentioned things like how they offer courses for learning to read. That is great for people who can't read and but I think when you are someone with a degree it is not the information you need. You are in a room with people with completely different needs. Someone who is just out of college is going to need different info compared to someone who is in their 50s who has been working for the past few years. I also found my welfare officer really condescending in my one to one meeting. It was like she was pushing me into areas I did not want to work in. Some of you may see that as being too fussy but if you have a degree in for example journalism, you may not want to do a course in childcare. It brings no benefit to your longer term goals. I also emailed my officer 2 times for information in relation to job bridge which she still has not replied to.

To be honest I feel I have got an internship quite well on my own. The help offered by the welfare office really was not beneficial to me. I understand that officers are also under pressure to help people get jobs but my experience with them was negative and I really felt like I was a little child in the principal's office even though I went there with a positive attitude.

salamanca22

king2 wrote: »

You do not have to be unemployed very long before being victimised by the DSP and forced onto Gateway, Tus or Momentum. This happens after as little as 3 Months. I am looking for work and applying for Jobs, the reason I am not getting one is because there are 400,000 people unemployed.Most People on Gateway Tus or momentum do not find work after, They end up back on the Dole. The Government and DSP and People like You wrongly blame Unemployed People for their situation. The Government, because it takes the focus off them to do anything about it. They waste public money on these ridiculous momentum courses instead of spending it trying to create Jobs

Ohh please, did you miss the part at the top where I mentioned my situation? If you want to get personal about it I have a few choice words for you as well..

You must be on social welfare for at least 1 year before you are offered positions in TUS and Jobbridge. The simple matter of the fact is if you are unemployed for that long you are doing something wrong. You need to reevaluate how you are trying to progress in life and do something about it. Being unemployed for so long when you can go to college for free is not on and is so unfair to everyone else. There are single mothers and fathers in college right now trying their best to get a qualification to get out of the unemployment hole.

Get your act together OP.

allibastor

anonyanony wrote: »

Min wage job in a shop or garage is not going to gain you any skills or a promotion, it might be OK if they offered set working hours, but weeks where you get maybe 10 hours spread over 5 days means you get way less then the dole.

These employers don't care about the staff and use people to cover the busy times rather then give them an 8 hour day. It's counter productive to take it, same with the ce scheme you won't get any skills working in the svp for 20hrs a week.

Job bridge is as bad any of the good ones you already need a qualification to do which makes them pointless they don't want to take unskilled people and train them, they want qualified people to work for cheep.

Employers have taken for granted workers telling them they don't like it they can stuff it, well now people are doing fine without them so they neef to make it worthwhile to work for them, a steady 40hr week at a reasonable wage will be a start also not thinking that they are doing people a huge favour giving them a min wage job.

I agree that the system is not perfect, and many employers do take their staff for granted.
But what you are thinking of will only drive you further away from a job.
If the OP isn't willing to work or take a course it will show he is not willing to engage.

Any many contacts can be made from Simple jobs, I met a guy recently who is now working as an auto body restoration tech, working on classic and unique cars. He met his current employer while he was working at a petrol station and they got talking.

DoctorDre

salamanca22 wrote: »

Ohh please, did you miss the part at the top where I mentioned my situation? If you want to get personal about it I have a few choice words for you as well..

You must be on social welfare for at least 1 year before you are offered positions in TUS and Jobbridge. The simple matter of the fact is if you are unemployed for that long you are doing something wrong. You need to reevaluate how you are trying to progress in life and do something about it. Being unemployed for so long when you can go to college for free is not on and is so unfair to everyone else. There are single mothers and fathers in college right now trying their best to get a qualification to get out of the unemployment hole.

Get your act together OP.

Three months for Jobbridge. Get your facts straight before telling people to get their act together.

the_syco

destiny6 wrote: »

Having said that, I do have a problem with the way the whole thing is set up. Firstly you have to be 3 months unemployed to even apply for job bridge which I was shocked by. I don't understand the point behind that.

I assume it's to stop an employer getting an employee to go on the dole, and work there essentially for free?

DoctorDre wrote: »

Three months for Jobbridge. Get your facts straight before telling people to get their act together.

I think it's three months (thought it used to be 6 months, though?) before you can apply for a JobsBridge, but it's one year before you get offered one?

thegreatgonzo

king2 wrote: »

.

Its 6 months long, 2 of which are unpaid work placement or slave labour as I told them. You then get a "fetac level 6" whatever the hell that is which will only qualify you to work in a factory as a production operator!

Nobody else has responded to this so this link might interest you:

http://www.educationinireland.com/en/how-do-i-apply-/qualifications-recognition/national-qualifications-framework.html

As you can see the Fetac level 6 is the equivalent of a higher certificate in a 3rd level college which is a pretty nice thing to be offered for free i would have thought. I'm doing a level 6 course part time myself which cost me approx €2400 out of my own pocket.
i don't know what kind of work you are looking for but I have a friend who is working on a factory line and has a lot more disposable income than me so it doesn't sound too bad from where I'm standing.

king2

Thanks but that does not really make sense. A higher certificate in a 3rd level college is about 2yrs full time isnt it? How could a 6 month course be equilavent to that?

davo10

king2 wrote: »

Thanks but that does not really make sense. A higher certificate in a 3rd level college is about 2yrs full time isnt it? How could a 6 month course be equilavent to that?

http://www.qualifax.ie

It would appear that you have some research to do before you thumb your nose at qualifications which are recognised and often required by employers, and importantly, provided free to you.

destiny6

Their fetac level courses are actually quite useful but I have to say they are not for everyone. When you are someone like me having spent the past 4 years in college, the last thing you want to do is course. If I wanted to continue my education then I would have went on to do a Masters but that is not what I want to do in my life right now. I told my officer that I want a job and that I was willing to partake in job bridge, yet she really pressured me into doing a course. I had only been 5 months unemployed, which in the broader scheme of things wasn't long! And the areas that i wanted to work in somehow 'weren't on the system'. These weren't areas like nanotechnology or something, but an area like journalism and writing/ any work in the NGO sector. As I've said before I found the one to one meetings condescending and unhelpful.

I feel like just because you get 100 euro a week of the government it means you have to give up your right to your aspirations. You are unemployed so you are not allowed be picky and choose what area of work you want. Until you are in that situation you can't understand how small they make you feel. Thankfully though I did not listen to my officer and continued to look for work in areas I am interested in and got something.

Rubberchikken

King2
i get your frustration at the system but until someone comes up with something better, it's what we're stuck with in the meantime.

i did a year placement on Tús. for me it was a great experience. i filled in the form when i first got it, attended an interview with two people, one of which was my supervisor for the year, and within 2 weeks had 19 and a half hours in a place in my town.

it was admin based but really appealed to me and i think i did my very best for the time i was there. i know i went into it in a positive manner which helped, and the fact that they were decent good people to work for and with helped to.

maybe fetac 6 isn't something hugh, but i think it can be a start to greater things.
tbh, any of these programmes are only as good as the people involved.

the DSP staff are only doing their job and some probably are better than others which is the same in any job.

king2

davo10 wrote: »

http://www.qualifax.ie

It would appear that you have some research to do before you thumb your nose at qualifications which are recognised and often required by employers, and importantly, provided free to you.

Im not thumbing my nose at anything. I opened this thread to protest about being forced by the dsp to apply for a course under threat of having payment stopped.I think this is an unacceptable way to treat people and one which the government and dsp engage in in an attempt to artificially reduce the live register figures by making them do irrelevant courses and worse, using them as slave labour to clean up litter etc through the disgraceful gateway scheme

allibastor

king2 wrote: »

Im not thumbing my nose at anything. I opened this thread to protest about being forced by the dsp to apply for a course under threat of having payment stopped.I think this is an unacceptable way to treat people and one which the government and dsp engage in in an attempt to artificially reduce the live register figures by making them do irrelevant courses and worse, using them as slave labour to clean up litter etc through the disgraceful gateway scheme

How are you ever going to up-skill though?

I agree that a course which is outside any area you want to work in may be a waste of time, but surely any education can add to your skill set.

king2

destiny6 wrote: »

Their fetac level courses are actually quite useful but I have to say they are not for everyone. When you are someone like me having spent the past 4 years in college, the last thing you want to do is course. If I wanted to continue my education then I would have went on to do a Masters but that is not what I want to do in my life right now. I told my officer that I want a job and that I was willing to partake in job bridge, yet she really pressured me into doing a course. I had only been 5 months unemployed, which in the broader scheme of things wasn't long! And the areas that i wanted to work in somehow 'weren't on the system'. These weren't areas like nanotechnology or something, but an area like journalism and writing/ any work in the NGO sector. As I've said before I found the one to one meetings condescending and unhelpful.

I feel like just because you get 100 euro a week of the government it means you have to give up your right to your aspirations. You are unemployed so you are not allowed be picky and choose what area of work you want. Until you are in that situation you can't understand how small they make you feel. Thankfully though I did not listen to my officer and continued to look for work in areas I am interested in and got something.

In my experience of dsp case officers all they want is to get you off the live register as soon as possible.This is how their Job Performance is rated, by the number of people they can get off the live register in a certain timeframe. The reason your case officer wanted you to do a course as opposed to jobbridge was probably because she had a course she could stick you on straightaway, whereas its slower to get someone onto jobbridge, they have to apply and be interviewed and then they may not even be successful.