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    #62
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Like what?


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    #63
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,111 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    I could see a couple. You realise that raising a child isn't a little experiment? That how you bring them up will help mould what type of person they grow up to be?

    What problems can you see? I'd like to raise an independent child who is confident in themselves and their choices. A 2 year old boy dressing up like a princess or playing with a doll because he wants to isn't going to scar him for life. I don't see how that means I see raising a child as an experiment? I'm not advocating forcing boys to play with dolls or anything like that. Simply that young children should be allowed to play how they want.


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    #64
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,083 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Grandchild number one was not going to be dressed in pink, her mother said. She found this was fairly difficult but mostly achieved it. Fast forward 5 years. Little girl adores pink. She likes wearing pink, anything pink, loves princesses and dressing up in pretty clothes. Don't know how long it will last but for the moment, pink is it. Grandchild number two is obviously younger but does not care what she wears, plays with baby dolls and cars. Her favourite 'toy' at the moment is a length of yarn or string that can be the lasso from some cowboy character cartoon. She is totally uninterested in pink.

    I personally find the pink-fest a bit cloying, but I don't think it matters. What I do find a bit unnerving is the sheer quantity of bits of expensive plastic that can - and will - be purchased for children, most of which will end up as a kind of soup at the bottom of the toy box.


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    #65
    Custardpi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What problems can you see? I'd like to raise an independent child who is confident in themselves and their choices. A 2 year old boy dressing up like a princess or playing with a doll because he wants to isn't going to scar him for life. I don't see how that means I see raising a child as an experiment? I'm not advocating forcing boys to play with dolls or anything like that. Simply that young children should be allowed to play how they want.

    To be fair I think RYB is probably concerned about the possibility of bullying by other children. A normal, happy go lucky kid who on a whim wants to wear a dress may end up labelled by the other children as strange/effeminate for wearing girls clothes if he was above a certain age (I don't think 3 year olds would bat an eyelid) which could affect his confidence in later years. It may of course turn out the opposite i.e. teaching him to stand up to people who give him crap (the "Boy Named Sue" effect), but it's certainly something to consider. I wouldn't put many of the toys currently labelled as boys or girls (girls lego, ffs! :() in this category though.


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    #66
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What problems can you see?

    Him being bullied for a start.


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    #67
    seenitall
    Registered Users Posts: 3,707 ✭✭✭seenitall


    looksee wrote: »
    Grandchild number one was not going to be dressed in pink, her mother said. She found this was fairly difficult but mostly achieved it. Fast forward 5 years. Little girl adores pink. She likes wearing pink, anything pink, loves princesses and dressing up in pretty clothes. Don't know how long it will last but for the moment, pink is it. Grandchild number two is obviously younger but does not care what she wears, plays with baby dolls and cars. Her favourite 'toy' at the moment is a length of yarn or string that can be the lasso from some cowboy character cartoon. She is totally uninterested in pink.

    I personally find the pink-fest a bit cloying, but I don't think it matters. What I do find a bit unnerving is the sheer quantity of bits of expensive plastic that can - and will - be purchased for children, most of which will end up as a kind of soup at the bottom of the toy box.

    LOL, so funny and so true!!

    I, wanting to be a progressive type of parent, used to dress my toddler in all neutral colours, and she had way more cute toddler jeans and "boy"-coloured and sloganed tops than she had dresses at age 2. By age 3, (that is - as soon as she became old enough to have some input into her clothes), though, it became a different story. Pink just started being the order of the day with her, and all things girly likewise.

    When I was a child, I was very much a tomboy, didn't care for dresses or dolls or pink or frilly things. I just wanted to be outside and climb trees and go on different adventures with boys. But that was me, and as soon as I realised my daughter is a real, dyed-in-the-wool, girlie girl, I started heeding her own choices.

    I would be doing the same for any child though, heed their own choices, whatever they may be, and however "unconventional" they may be (within reason, of course!). Part of our responsibilities as parents is to ensure that our children are acclimatised to their social environment. But another part of our responsibilities as parents is to ensure our children feel cherished and accepted with all their tastes, their choices and their true natures - and that has to come from us as parents, long before it will come from "society".


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    #68
    TheOtherBloke
    Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭TheOtherBloke


    Pink is just another colour of course.. But if ya ask most lads, they will say it symbolises girls or what have ya. Its just the way society's brought them up. And I dont think this view will change soon.


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    #69
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,111 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    Him being bullied for a start.

    Well, as said above, for a young kid then that probably won't be an issue. As he gets older and more used to social norms, he probably wouldnt want to anyway. If he did I'd like to think I'd be fully supportive if he understood that he might get some comments and still wanted to do it. Honestly though, I don't think my partner would allow that!


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    #70
    TheOtherBloke
    Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭TheOtherBloke


    Pink is just another colour of course.. But if ya ask most lads, they will say it symbolises girls or what have ya. Its just the way society's brought them up. And I dont think this view will change soon.


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    #71
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    Him being bullied for a start.

    Here's a question :

    How come a boy dressing up as a princess needs to fear bullying, and a girl dressing up as a cowboy would be perfectly normal?

    I know it's reality, and it happens to be the exact aspect of reality I wanted to highlight by setting up this thread.
    But why? What's the cause of it?


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    #72
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Shenshen wrote: »
    Here's a question :

    How come a boy dressing up as a princess needs to fear bullying, and a girl dressing up as a cowboy would be perfectly normal?

    I know it's reality, and it happens to be the exact aspect of reality I wanted to highlight by setting up this thread.
    But why? What's the cause of it?



    Because wanting to be boyish is expected, wanting to be girly is shameful.


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    #73
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Shenshen wrote: »
    Here's a question :

    How come a boy dressing up as a princess needs to fear bullying, and a girl dressing up as a cowboy would be perfectly normal?

    I know it's reality, and it happens to be the exact aspect of reality I wanted to highlight by setting up this thread.
    But why? What's the cause of it?

    Having a daughter that is a bit of a Tomboy isn't that bad. Having a son that thinks he's a princess on the otherhand..


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    #74
    Custardpi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    All things considered, being a princess is a bit crap for either gender really. They don't really do much of any worth. Kate Midleton's main purpose is to look pretty & produce an heir. Hardly something to aspire to.


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    #75
    nicki11
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭nicki11


    Adults are the main issue though kids don't really seem to care unless they were raised to beleive in gender stereotypes, my Dad thought it was strange when his brothers sons wanted all pink toys for Christmas including a kitchenete and cash register but my uncles issue was whether it would make his kids feel insecure because there was only girls playing with them on the box (they ended up setting it up sans the box). While my Aunts ex yelled at me (when I was 8) for letting his son play with my horses and pink carriage and my dad got pissed at him. Its one thing to say things should be equal but when kids get yelled/ stared at for playing with something or wearing something it does get to you, at least your bones will heal, where as so many boys are afraid of being called efeminate that they make fun of other boys and call them fgot and that is a real issue


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    #76
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Interesting, if only tangentially related; http://i.imgur.com/0ke9qlu.png


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    #77
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,816 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    iDave wrote: »
    Maybe boys just DONT want to play with fecking dolls regardless of their colour

    Maybe some do!!!!!!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #78
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,816 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    AnimalChin wrote: »

    Boys and girls like different things in general.

    Do they?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #79
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,816 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    iDave wrote: »
    Or maybe boys prefer certain things by biology and social pressure/gender roles aren't the all conquering forces they are made out to be. No small boy wants to pretend holding a bottle to a fake baby or wonder what dress looks best on Barbie.

    What evidence have you of this biological determination?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #80
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,816 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    AnimalChin wrote: »
    So misguided.

    No. It's not a girly pursuit, but at that age (around 4, 5) boys and girls generally only hang out with the same sex (excluding cousins etc) on a daily basis and usually have the same interests - at the start - before they gain a sense of their own identity.

    It's highly unlikely a boy will want a play kitchen set - I've personally never known one to want one - they usually go for sports gear, bikes, video games - that kind of thing. Things boys at that ages veer to.

    And don't tell me they only veer that way because they're told - that's utter rubbish!

    I was never told to like a certain thing. I was a boy who hung around with boys and started to play football because I watched it with my dad on the TV and wanted to emulate the players.

    Same when I watched Commando and wanted to pretend I was Arnold Schwarzenegger with a toy gun.

    I also saw Tootsie, but dressing up in girls clothes just never appealed to me. Sorry.

    What proof have you that boys and girls will aleays choose certain toys and why on earth is a toy kitchen wrong to give a boy?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #81
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Children should be seen and not heard!


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    #82
    Custardpi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What evidence have you of this biological determination?

    My understanding from what I've read on the subject (plenty of videos discussing it online also) is that both nature & nurture are now regarded as playing important roles in the development of childhood personalities & preferences. Do you believe that it's 100% nurture, i.e. that biology plays zero role in how children behave & that everything is down to socialisation?


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    #83
    fran17
    Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭fran17


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What evidence have you of this biological determination?

    Listen Joey we all know you mean well and are a fighter for equality for all but speaking personally,and that's all I can speak for,you don't debate the biology or sexual orientation of young children.I don't know if your a parent or not but trust me.


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    #84
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,816 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    fran17 wrote: »
    Listen Joey we all know you mean well and are a fighter for equality for all but speaking personally,and that's all I can speak for,you don't debate the biology or sexual orientation of young children.I don't know if your a parent or not but trust me.
    Why dont you? There are plenty of examples young transgender children and intersex children who were butchered at birth.

    I think I'll trust my own instincts and human rights on this one.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #85
    Don Kedick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Don Kedick


    Ah come on, we've all tried on a pair of pink knickers at some stage in our lives.


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    #86
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,816 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Don Kedick wrote: »
    Ah come on, we've all tried on a pair of pink knickers at some stage in our lives.

    Speak for yourself therr!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #87
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Why dont you? There are plenty of examples young transgender children and intersex children who were butchered at birth.

    I think I'll trust my own instincts     and human rights on this one.

    not a good argument, its the same one that people who don't want gay people to adopt use....


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    #88
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Don Kedick wrote: »
    Ah come on, we've all tried on a pair of pink knickers at some stage in our lives.

    Pink eyeshadow doesn't impress anybody though :(


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    #89
    Don Kedick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Don Kedick


    catallus wrote: »
    Pink eyeshadow doesn't impress anybody though :(

    You usually end up with blackness under your eye!


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    #90
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Don Kedick wrote: »
    You usually end up with blackness under your eye!

    BUT I JUST WANTED TO BE PRETTY :o


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    #91
    fran17
    Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭fran17


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Why dont you? There are plenty of examples young transgender children and intersex children who were butchered at birth.

    I think I'll trust my own instincts and human rights on this one.

    I'm not going to get into a debate on it,and you could call me a hurler on the ditch here and that would be fine,but I don't take this forum very serious anymore.Lets just call it social awareness or lets just call it giving a child a childhood.By all means trust your instincts and human rights,we all have them.


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