What to do with land

chezzie

What should I do with this land, fairly good land but would need reseeding by right as becoming bit exhausted now.
Got only 16 acres in total and lifting a farm payment of about €1200 per year.

Someone suggesting that we should plant it as not bad money in forestry at present.

What would be the most profitable way to go?

frazzledhome

chezzie wrote: »

What should I do with this land, fairly good land but would need reseeding by right as becoming bit exhausted now.
Got only 16 acres in total and lifting a farm payment of about €1200 per year.

Someone suggesting that we should plant it as not bad money in forestry at present.

What would be the most profitable way to go?

Planting is the one guaranteed way of devaluing your land. I speak from experience

chezzie

frazzledhome wrote: »

Planting is the one guaranteed way of devaluing your land. I speak from experience

why you say that

Farmer Pudsey

chezzie wrote: »

why you say that

If it is good land it goes from being worth 8-10k/Acre to being worth 4-5/acre. Technically best option is to lease it with SFP you can draw about 4500/year tax free(assuming you get 200/acre to rent.)

If there was a few old sheds you could carry about 60-80 ewe's on it. However you need a good skill level regarding sheep.

Sam Kade

Also when you plant it once it must be kept in forestry.

9935452

chezzie wrote: »

What should I do with this land, fairly good land but would need reseeding by right as becoming bit exhausted now.
Got only 16 acres in total and lifting a farm payment of about €1200 per year.

Someone suggesting that we should plant it as not bad money in forestry at present.

What would be the most profitable way to go?

I definitely wouldn't plant it. Land in my opinion after planting is a write off. Your best bet is let it to a known good farmer/neighbour for a 5 year period , writing it into the lease that the land has to be ploughed and reseeded within the 5 year period.
Another slight variation is get it reseeded yourself and l eithre farm it yourself or let it.
If you are farming and want to claim the SPF for it , there is always an option of letting it for silage alone,

madmaggie

9935452 wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't plant it. Land in my opinion after planting is a write off. Your best bet is let it to a known good farmer/neighbour for a 5 year period , writing it into the lease that the land has to be ploughed and reseeded within the 5 year period.
Another slight variation is get it reseeded yourself and l eithre farm it yourself or let it.
If you are farming and want to claim the SPF for it , there is always an option of letting it for silage alone,

I agree entirely with above, I have a under 20 acres, and was tempted to plant, so glad now I didn't. The 5 year lease works out grand, I was lucky letting to a decent sort, didn't abuse the place, and a good neighbour as well.

Jack180570

chezzie wrote: »

What should I do with this land, fairly good land but would need reseeding by right as becoming bit exhausted now.
Got only 16 acres in total and lifting a farm payment of about €1200 per year.

Someone suggesting that we should plant it as not bad money in forestry at present.

What would be the most profitable way to go?

To answer your question as to what the most profitable way to go then you need to put a current value on the land. .. if it's in the €4000 to €5000 range then forestry should be a real consideration.

It's also relevant as to how much work /hassle you want to go through while 'managing' the land. Forestry is low input regarding your time and the payments from the Dept are reliable.

For a lot of people (myself included), forestry has been both enjoyable and profitable. It has allowed me get a very good income from land that was either average to poor quality, and also land that was awkward to farm. I previously had tried letting the land to various people for varying lengths with very mixed results. ..

Great thing about forestry is that you are still both the owner and the farmer unlike leasing. Also your payments come on time each year, there's no income tax and not only are you getting around 200/ac premium each year but your crop of trees is growing in value by another 200-300 a year

lakill Farm

chezzie wrote: »

why you say that[/QUO

where in the country are you?

Suit letting it for 5 years or longer to a farmer.

set the rent at €x price per acre if he reseeds it in year 1 and then the price of the reseed be rebated to him over 5 years

You will have the land reseeded
be paid rent for 5 years less the reseed price

littlevillage

I think a lot of farmers are in the same boat, myself included. I work off farm and am drawing a few bob in grants from the land, but would like to make a few bob more from the land without breaking my back working every evening/weekend. I think stocking it myself is probably out , because of the work involved and there just isn't any money in small scale cattle farming, (don't know anything about Sheep.. strike me as a lot of trouble too)

Family connections are stopping me from selling out entirely.. I rent\lease out bits of it at the moment... but majority of the land more or less lying idle.

The only thing I have started to do in the last year or two is to sell hay/Sillage (either cut& bag it myself or sell it in the ground)

Capercaille

madmaggie wrote: »

I agree entirely with above, I have a under 20 acres, and was tempted to plant, so glad now I didn't. The 5 year lease works out grand, I was lucky letting to a decent sort, didn't abuse the place, and a good neighbour as well.

Getting somebody decent is difficult. I had my small farm leased out a couple of years ago and they made **** of the place. Good honest lads are hard got.

lakill Farm

Capercaille wrote: »

Getting somebody decent is difficult. I had my small farm leased out a couple of years ago and they made **** of the place. Good honest lads are hard got.

Its also shocking hard to get a place to rent.

I have 2 parcels of ground and both are year to year lease and going into our 3 year .

I would love to rent another 20 acres but I cant get it or else its crazy money

Greengrass1

lakill Farm wrote: »

Its also shocking hard to get a place to rent.

I have 2 parcels of ground and both are year to year lease and going into our 3 year .

I would love to rent another 20 acres but I cant get it or else its crazy money

Awful hard tbh. People here tell us they don't know how we got the 33 ac we leased......begrudgers again.
Place had never been hedge trimmed in the 18yr the previous tenant had it. As soon as we told land lord we had hedge trimmer that sealed the deal.
Very limited chance of getting any more ground within 5 mile radius. If I push on with cows more than likely ill need to contract rear heifers.

smokey-fitz

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Awful hard tbh. People here tell us they don't know how we got the 33 ac we leased......begrudgers again.
Place had never been hedge trimmed in the 18yr the previous tenant had it. As soon as we told land lord we had hedge trimmer that sealed the deal.
Very limited chance of getting any more ground within 5 mile radius. If I push on with cows more than likely ill need to contract rear heifers.

Dont mean to be noisey or hijack the thread but what would be the rate for leasing good dry grassland atm? There might be more coming up in new year due to the tax relief on leased ground but more especially dairy lads (I presume) will be looking due to expansion.

chezzie

I'm in Cavan and the land is good ( but as I said a little exhausted now as not been reseeded in 20 years) except for 2 acres which is abit boggy.

Can you plant it and still claim SFP which we are already getting.

Milked out

chezzie wrote: »

I'm in Cavan and the land is good ( but as I said a little exhausted now as not been reseeded in 20 years) except for 2 acres which is abit boggy.

Can you plant it and still claim SFP which we are already getting.

Afaik if you plant you can't claim sfp on it. If it's good land planting it will reduce its value by a few thousand an acre when you could possibly get a long term lease which will give you a decent tax free income amount similar to the forestry premium without devaluing the land. Once in forestry it can't be changed unless you plant a similar acreage else where I think.

Jack180570

chezzie wrote: »

I'm in Cavan and the land is good ( but as I said a little exhausted now as not been reseeded in 20 years) except for 2 acres which is abit boggy.

Can you plant it and still claim SFP which we are already getting.

Yes...
The rules under the current (old) forestry scheme are that you can draw your SFP on land that you plant as long as the land was submitted for SPS in 2008 and the applicant got paid SPS in that year.

The Minister announced today some details of the new forestry scheme http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/publicconsultation/newforestryprogramme2014-2020/

Specific details regarding drawing SPS and forestry premiums are expected to remain the same but you can keep an eye on the Dept website or the Journal for final details.

Jack180570

chezzie wrote: »

I'm in Cavan and the land is good ( but as I said a little exhausted now as not been reseeded in 20 years) except for 2 acres which is abit boggy.

Can you plant it and still claim SFP which we are already getting.

The specific conditions as per the 2012 Forestry Scheme (old scheme) manual is as below:

13.4 Single Farm Payment 2011 and Forestry
Following changes to EU Regulations governing the Single Payment System, land which was afforested since 2009 is eligible to draw down a SPS payment provided that the afforested land meets the following requirements:

1. The land to be afforested was declared on a 2008 SPS application form;

2. The applicant who declared that land on a 2008 SPS application form was paid under the 2008 Single Payment Scheme;

3. The land to be afforested was eligible to draw down an SPS payment in 2008;

4. Applicants who afforest part of their holding from 2009 onwards, and wish to benefit from the Single Payment, must retain at least 10% of the eligible hectares declared in 2008 (by the applicant or their predecessor) in an agricultural activity subject to a minimum of 3 hectares.

5. If the applicant is a new entrant to farming, the minimum area to be retained in an agricultural activity will be fixed by the Department on a case by case basis.

6. Applicants who wish to benefit from the Single Payment on afforested land must be the person (or member/s of the same family in joint management) in receipt of afforestation premium.

7. The afforested land meets all the requirements of the Afforestation Grant and Premium Scheme, FEPS or the Native Woodland Establishment Scheme;

8. Eligible forestry parcels that are declared on SPS applications to activate entitlements will also be subject to cross-compliance requirements.

9. Consolidation of newly afforested land is no longer required.

madmaggie

lakill Farm wrote: »

Its also shocking hard to get a place to rent.

I have 2 parcels of ground and both are year to year lease and going into our 3 year .

I would love to rent another 20 acres but I cant get it or else its crazy money

Can't help you there, I'm afraid, you'd have a fair old trek to do the herding from Westmeath to ScallionLand. I've another year on the lease, and I'm hoping yer man renews, though with beef prices (he's in dry stock only) you never know.

madmaggie

Capercaille wrote: »

Getting somebody decent is difficult. I had my small farm leased out a couple of years ago and they made **** of the place. Good honest lads are hard got.

Yeah, I know someone who had an awful time, cut down trees, riddled the hedges, left fences in bits, silage wrap all over the place. It makes a difference if you live on the property and can keep an eye out. It works both ways, if yer man here has in-calf heifers on the land, I would keep an eye out and phone him if I think there is a problem. Lads appreciate that.

Good loser

Don't dream of planting it.

I recently got €200 per acre for harvested trees on 5 acres planted 22 years - after windblow.

Could cost €1,200 per acre to replant.

Pharaoh1

littlevillage wrote: »

I think a lot of farmers are in the same boat, myself included. I work off farm and am drawing a few bob in grants from the land, but would like to make a few bob more from the land without breaking my back working every evening/weekend. I think stocking it myself is probably out , because of the work involved and there just isn't any money in small scale cattle farming, (don't know anything about Sheep.. strike me as a lot of trouble too)

Family connections are stopping me from selling out entirely.. I rent\lease out bits of it at the moment... but majority of the land more or less lying idle.

The only thing I have started to do in the last year or two is to sell hay/Sillage (either cut& bag it myself or sell it in the ground)

I'm in exactly this situation and just this week finalising a share agreement with a local cereal grower to sow barley in the spring. Got lime spread last week. Thought about the silage selling option but decided to go down the grain route.
Don't expect to make much if any money and I know I'm lucky all the land is in one bloc and is all suitable for tillage.
Will spend a few days over the Christmas lifting fences and preparing.

jessie_pinkman

good thinking

chezzie

Ok not many here in favour of planting it,

what is the average per year i could make for planting it.


if i rent it at for example at €150 per acre, do i lose the SFP of €1200

chezzie

Good loser wrote: »

Don't dream of planting it.

I recently got €200 per acre for harvested trees on 5 acres planted 22 years - after windblow.

Could cost €1,200 per acre to replant.

but don't you get a payment per acre every year for those 22 years

Markcheese

What's the establishment grant for non farmers ? If there is boggy patches they could be a great place to plant ,just make sure who ever is planting knows which trees to put in what conditions- and if you're thinking of using it for firewood use broadleaf or a mix of broadleaf and conifers-broadleafs grow back by themselves when coppiced...

Jack180570

Good loser wrote: »

Don't dream of planting it.

I recently got €200 per acre for harvested trees on 5 acres planted 22 years - after windblow.

Could cost €1,200 per acre to replant.

oh man it looks like you got a very bad deal... clearly there was a significant loss in that it had to be clearfelled at such an early year... A bit like killing the turkey in May...
What way did you sell it and did you shop around for quotes?
It sounds like a scandalous price. .. was the forestry very poor?
I recently clearfelled a section of my forestry that was blown in the storm and it worked out at way more than that.

Price on replanting also seem high

Jack180570

chezzie wrote: »

Ok not many here in favour of planting it,

what is the average per year i could make for planting it.


if i rent it at for example at €150 per acre, do i lose the SFP of €1200

Average as per today's farming independent is 205 per acre. Can continue to draw SFP

Also the crop should be putting on between 200 and 300 a year in growth.

Good loser

chezzie wrote: »

but don't you get a payment per acre every year for those 22 years

I did for 20 years but that is the end of the income. I believe new planters will get it for 15 years.

Good loser

Jack180570 wrote: »

oh man it looks like you got a very bad deal... clearly there was a significant loss in that it had to be clearfelled at such an early year... A bit like killing the turkey in May...
What way did you sell it and did you shop around for quotes?
It sounds like a scandalous price. .. was the forestry very poor?
I recently clearfelled a section of my forestry that was blown in the storm and it worked out at way more than that.

Price on replanting also seem high

The clear felling was forced by the windblow.

Less than 8 tons each of stake and pallet; 6 loads pulp - for some reason it weighed light. No sawlog.

I did extra on the digger alright after felling; deepened all the drains to improve the 'hold' of the trees next time; also put in an accessway over two drains. Had to clear a lot of scrub trees.

The new trees will cost about €400 per acre to buy and these 'might' have to be sprayed three times for weevils.

chezzie

Good loser wrote: »

The clear felling was forced by the windblow.

Less than 8 tons each of stake and pallet; 6 loads pulp - for some reason it weighed light. No sawlog.

I did extra on the digger alright after felling; deepened all the drains to improve the 'hold' of the trees next time; also put in an accessway over two drains. Had to clear a lot of scrub trees.

The new trees will cost about €400 per acre to buy and these 'might' have to be sprayed three times for weevils.

oh €400 per acre, how much royghly can one expect to make by planting it today...

how does it compare to renting it....

unsure what to do with it really

ihatewinter

Sell it, be a nice tidy sum to invest in something that you might have an interest in.

chezzie

ihatewinter wrote: »

Sell it, be a nice tidy sum to invest in something that you might have an interest in.

I was left it so wouldn't sell it, wouldn't sit well with me that.