Water protest disruption

MOH

Does anyone have a clear picture of how disrupted transport is this evening?

Dublin Bus are claiming that northbound cross city buses are running the same route as usual, with possible delays. AA roadwatch are saying O'Connell Bridge is closed both directions.

Obviously, both can't be true.

superelliptic

The protest is going on until 7pm from what I heard so I'd say getting through town on anything other than bicycle or on foot may not be possible. It might have quietened down a bit by now though.

MOH

DublinBus have since updated their news item. It rather confusingly says for the individual buses that they're running, but then has a missable note on top saying

O'Connell Street is closed and all access points to O'Connell Bridge are blocked and traffic is at a standstill none of our cross city services are getting through. Please expect major delays.

Live traffic cams may help get an idea

Sala

The response today by Dublin bus was very poor. I usually think they are very good (and have had great admiration for them in the snows of 2010!) but today was just poor. Fair enough I should have checkedthe website before I left and made alternative plans, but I tried to get a bus on the quays just before the diversion. Buses were passing me with their numbers on so I thought they were running and turning over the bridge at the four courts. The app said they (39A) were coming. But when it was due it would knock back a minute or two and disappear. After 30 mins waiting for a bus that was due in 2/3 mins it came, and switched off it's sign! It said city centre on it, even though the app said UCD. I walked across town. Asked the Gardai on dawson street did they know where the buses were running from, they didn't, they said check a few stops on their usual route. (They also kindly told us there was no luas as it crashed!) About to walk up to leeson street as that's where they should be, but they came up baggot street. Tried to flag a 145 and he stopped way up the road and then drove off as we were running up. Got on to a dark empty bus with no sign and the driver told me he was actually a 46a and would be going in 10 mins. Everyone passing was asking what bus he was, or where such and such buses were diverted to and he didn't know - not criticising him at all, he can't be expected to know, but even people checking the website and the app didn't know where to go. He also stopped at every stop as for some reason he had no number (46a) on him.

Fair enough it must be a logistical nightmare for Dublin Bus, but they had to know some people would be relying on the app, especially when they were standing on a road that wasn't closed. Also I tried to check the news and the only news on the app for today was some roadworks

dublinstevie

To be fair it does say on the db website the 145 turning at burlington hotel

dublinstevie

To be fair it does say on the db website the 145 turning at burlington hotel

hmmm

Dublin bus need to be able to react to this sort of thing better, particularly as we face into Winter. Focus on running outbound buses on main corridors, and sharply curtail services if buses are running into delays on the inbound trip. Most people can walk the first and final mile or two of their journey, but they need to be able to get on a bus that will take them over the trunk/middle part of the journey.

The website was decent today however, the information was clear and updated regularly.

Sala

dublinstevie wrote: »

To be fair it does say on the db website the 145 turning at burlington hotel

It does, and as I said I should have checked the website and didn't so that's my fault... But at the bus stop the 145 was still on the bus app as coming (albeit 20 mins later) other buses were listed as coming and the "news" section on the app only had a post about Samuel Beckett diversions for some other reason. I realised later the posts under Tuesday 9th December had info as they were updating older posts about diversions. Anyway, they should have shut off the live feed to the app if possible as it was totally misleading. That said, I didn't realise until I got home there was a bit of trouble so I suppose if their plan was to be operational at that time and the diversions were changed late in day there probably wasn't much they could do

hfallada

hmmm wrote: »

Dublin bus need to be able to react to this sort of thing better, particularly as we face into Winter. Focus on running outbound buses on main corridors, and sharply curtail services if buses are running into delays on the inbound trip. Most people can walk the first and final mile or two of their journey, but they need to be able to get on a bus that will take them over the trunk/middle part of the journey.

The website was decent today however, the information was clear and updated regularly.

The protestors aim was to cause as much disruption are possible. Its ridiculous that Dublin literally has every bus pretty much running down Westmoreland/ D'Olier Street. But Dublins streets are too narrow to have several main bus corridors running into the city, instead of just O Connell Street.

But the thing I got from todays protests were. If Dublin focus on BRT instead of Metro or Luas. With every protest/march the city goes to a stand still Eg St Patricks Day, Gay Pride. There is several days a year where the City centre is pretty much closed, as everyone relies on buses for transport

cdebru

hfallada wrote: »

The protestors aim was to cause as much disruption are possible. Its ridiculous that Dublin literally has every bus pretty much running down Westmoreland/ D'Olier Street. But Dublins streets are too narrow to have several main bus corridors running into the city, instead of just O Connell Street.

But the thing I got from todays protests were. If Dublin focus on BRT instead of Metro or Luas. With every protest/march the city goes to a stand still Eg St Patricks Day, Gay Pride. There is several days a year where the City centre is pretty much closed, as everyone relies on buses for transport

So the trams weren't affected, and the Luas going over O'Connell Bridge and around by Nassau Street would have been unaffected ? You do know that the Luas will also be running down Westmoreland St ?

dubscottie

hmmm wrote: »

Dublin bus need to be able to react to this sort of thing better, particularly as we face into Winter. Focus on running outbound buses on main corridors, and sharply curtail services if buses are running into delays on the inbound trip. Most people can walk the first and final mile or two of their journey, but they need to be able to get on a bus that will take them over the trunk/middle part of the journey.

The website was decent today however, the information was clear and updated regularly.

Thats all very well saying they should be able to react better however a protest is completely different to snow on the ground.

Protests are "fluid" and can move or pop up anywhere so planning for this is nigh on impossible.

Most of the buses I witnessed heading into town has C after the number (i.e. 15C) to let folks know it was not going further..

GarIT

Dublin bus was saying everywhere that the 67 was running normally from on the Maynooth but we waited two hours in the cold and didn't see one bus arriving or departing.

These scum should have been made clear the road. Blocking a vehicle from progressing on a public road is a crime and it should have been enforced today.

Nodster

Oddly enough, the 10.49 train from Balbriggan was seriously delayed getting into Connolly, plus the driver seemed to be on a sponsored silence to update anyone, was late for my Protest - can't have it both ways!

RobbingBandit

The Dublin Bus app shut down this evening, I got into Dublin Airport just after 7:30 and both the app and the timetable signpost were off with a message that due to the protests no info was available.

What I don't understand is that the app and info work off the gps on the buses themselves which are on the move on the road or at least should have been, yes the buses were significantly delayed by the protests but they were still on the move so these signpost and apps should have been still working, Irish bull****ism again at it's best really.

hmmm

dubscottie wrote: »

Protests are "fluid" and can move or pop up anywhere so planning for this is nigh on impossible.

Of course, that's why they need to be able to react.

In the quays coridor I was on, everyone was told (via the website, who again I think did a good job) to head to a particular stop. There was no-one from Dublin Bus there and hundreds of people milling around, with no information to be had. A bus would pull up, sit there for 20 minutes with the doors closed, and often would pull off (empty). Every now and again up would pop a number, and a mob would rush forward to get on board. There seemed to be very little indication of anyone in charge.

Meanwhile buses were still being sent into the North Quays to be held up in a complete traffic jam - who was directing them to continue in this direction, and why did no one shout "stop"? Most people will understand in a situation like that if their exact bus which will deliver them to their door can't be available, but DB could at least have started shipping people out in volume on the trunk services.

KD345

RobbingBandit wrote: »

The Dublin Bus app shut down this evening, I got into Dublin Airport just after 7:30 and both the app and the timetable signpost were off with a message that due to the protests no info was available.

What I don't understand is that the app and info work off the gps on the buses themselves which are on the move on the road or at least should have been, yes the buses were significantly delayed by the protests but they were still on the move so these signpost and apps should have been still working, Irish bull****ism again at it's best really.

The system works off scheduled and real time GPS data. The problem yesterday was that no bus was on schedule, every service suffered severe delays, so even though a bus may have been arriving to Dublin Airport, in reality, it was probably supposed to be in Ballinteer or Heuston. The bus was in the wrong place, drivers were at the wrong location and the timetable fell to pieces. No system could have worked perfectly yesterday. Roads were being closed at random and having knock on effects on other corridors.

I think the web updates and the excellent Twitter service offered by Dublin Bus yesterday were pretty decent.

MOH

KD345 wrote: »

I think the web updates and the excellent Twitter service offered by Dublin Bus yesterday were pretty decent.

The website was still insisting buses were running their normal route "but please expect delays" well after O'Connell Bridge was shut down.
They then left the inaccurate information up but put a small contradictory notice in a small font at the top which was easily missed. And even that just said O'Connell bridge was closed, no cross city services getting through, expect major delays.

That was the last time I checked it a bit before 6. They've taken the page down now so no idea if they updated it after.

mmmcake

MOH wrote: »

They then left the inaccurate information up but put a small contradictory notice in a small font at the top which was easily missed..

You did not miss it, how can you say others did?

Dublin traffic was crazy yesterday, you cant really blame anyone but the protesters.

LXFlyer

RobbingBandit wrote: »

The Dublin Bus app shut down this evening, I got into Dublin Airport just after 7:30 and both the app and the timetable signpost were off with a message that due to the protests no info was available.

What I don't understand is that the app and info work off the gps on the buses themselves which are on the move on the road or at least should have been, yes the buses were significantly delayed by the protests but they were still on the move so these signpost and apps should have been still working, Irish bull****ism again at it's best really.

The system needs a timetable to read from for each individual departure in order to predict how long the bus is going to take to get from it's current GPS location. There isn't some wonderful computer in the sky that can just make the predictive journey times up.


Buses and drivers were in completely wrong locations, off normal routes, stuck in massive traffic jams, and facing moving protesters that were forcing the gardai to close roads on a rolling basis.


Please tell me how any system could cope with that.

lil5

lxflyer wrote: »

Please tell me how any system could cope with that.

The protest (unlike any severe weather disruption) didn't exactly fall from the sky.

A properly organised transport provider would have made plans to minimise disruption to the many customers (e.g. don't run routes across town, advise customers in up-to-date fashion).

A properly organised transport provider might even make timetables that can be applied to such events and still be displayed on the RTPI.


As per usual the day arrives and customers are severly and needlessly impacted.

MOH

mmmcake wrote: »

You did not miss it, how can you say others did?

Dublin traffic was crazy yesterday, you cant really blame anyone but the protesters.

First time I checked the page, saw no note.

Second time I checked the page, saw no note.

Third time I checked, saw note, update time on page was before I'd checked it the second time. So obviously the note was there then, but I missed it.
If I hadn't checked AA roadwatch and seen O'Connell Bridge was closed, and gone back and checked the DB site a third time, I would have thought my bus was running fine, albeit with some delays.
The colleague who looked at the page with me the second time missed it too.



I'm not blaming DB for the traffic, I'm blaming them for giving inaccurate, contradictory information about the status of their buses.

cdebru

lil5 wrote: »

The protest (unlike any severe weather disruption) didn't exactly fall from the sky.

A properly organised transport provider would have made plans to minimise disruption to the many customers (e.g. don't run routes across town, advise customers in up-to-date fashion).

A properly organised transport provider might even make timetables that can be applied to such events and still be displayed on the RTPI.


As per usual the day arrives and customers are severly and needlessly impacted.

Yeah and they might have large helicopters that could swoop down and lift the buses over the blockage, seriously have you nothing better to be doing with your time ? There was a planned protest no one knew if it was going to be 10,000 or over a 100,000, no one knew that streets would be blocked at 6pm especially O'Connell bridge, the buses blocked at O"Connell bridge had left termini long before anyone could have known that it would be blocked, even after it is blocked no one knows how long it will last, so you cancel everything over O'Connell bridge and the gardai clear it after 5 minutes and then you would be here saying idiots the road was clear and still no service, Also when a bus is on route it is not that easy to turn it around, even ignoring the fact that you have passengers on who have just paid their fare to be brought to their destination. There is no way that any operator could have timetables to take into account rolling protests closing roads, it is ridiculous to even suggest it. The best anyone can do is play it by ear because there are so many variables you may have a bus in the right place but a driver who can't legally do the journey and drivers who can but no buses, you can't suddenly move handover positions and expect a driver to magically know where his bus will be.

cdebru

MOH wrote: »

First time I checked the page, saw no note.

Second time I checked the page, saw no note.

Third time I checked, saw note, update time on page was before I'd checked it the second time. So obviously the note was there then, but I missed it.
If I hadn't checked AA roadwatch and seen O'Connell Bridge was closed, and gone back and checked the DB site a third time, I would have thought my bus was running fine, albeit with some delays.
The colleague who looked at the page with me the second time missed it too.



I'm not blaming DB for the traffic, I'm blaming them for giving inaccurate, contradictory information about the status of their buses.

In fairness a day like yesterday is not normal operating procedures and contradictory information is coming into DB as well where Gardai can be saying a road is open where in reality it is closed and then they have to work out what if anything they can do meanwhile every driver affected is trying to call in to see what they should do, the Gardai are directing buses one way but the controller wants them to go another, then Gardai can be telling them they are going to reopen the road but then in reality they don't or can't so you put off telling people its closed because if it is reopening no point in confusing people by sending them off somewhere else.

MOH

cdebru wrote: »

In fairness a day like yesterday is not normal operating procedures and contradictory information is coming into DB as well where Gardai can be saying a road is open where in reality it is closed and then they have to work out what if anything they can do meanwhile every driver affected is trying to call in to see what they should do, the Gardai are directing buses one way but the controller wants them to go another, then Gardai can be telling them they are going to reopen the road but then in reality they don't or can't so you put off telling people its closed because if it is reopening no point in confusing people by sending them off somewhere else.

I fully agree. I understand there's no way they could know from one moment to the next what the situation is, or will be in ten minutes.

But even just say that. Put a clear, highlighted, unambiguous notice up that there are rolling disruptions throughout the city centre, that roads are closed, that there's sever disruption everywhere, and that they have no idea how long delays are likely to be.

And don't contradict this by then posting a list of individual routes and saying they're running normally. And even that included information like the 4 and 7 are "operating to and from Merrion sq.". Presumably they meant southbound from there, but that's not clear. Other routes had better infiormation like the 46A: "Buses heading Southbound are departing from Leeson St. to Dun Laoghaire and not serving City Centre."

Macy0161

lil5 wrote: »

The protest (unlike any severe weather disruption) didn't exactly fall from the sky.

A properly organised transport provider would have made plans to minimise disruption to the many customers (e.g. don't run routes across town, advise customers in up-to-date fashion).

A properly organised transport provider might even make timetables that can be applied to such events and still be displayed on the RTPI.


As per usual the day arrives and customers are severly and needlessly impacted.

Weren't the protesters blocking the traffic breakaways? There was a plan from early morning for where the protesters were supposed to be. Fault is with those protesters who blocked the traffic.

BowWow

From what I saw of the crowd make-up, I'd say a lot of protesters used their Free Travel Pass to travel to and from the protest, thus adding to the travel delays.

(In fact if there was no free travel at peak times, I'd suggest the protest would have been about a third of the size it was)

end of the road

BowWow wrote: »

From what I saw of the crowd make-up, I'd say a lot of protesters used their Free Travel Pass to travel to and from the protest, thus adding to the travel delays.

(In fact if there was no free travel at peak times, I'd suggest the protest would have been about a third of the size it was)

at least they turned up, free travel or not. having it on a wednesday even if it was human rights day was a bad idea though

thomasj

Looks like another disastrous evening. People waiting upto an hour if not more for buses.

Dublin bus on twitter are citing major traffic congestion in the lesson street/baggott street/Stephens green area and are saying their buses have been stuck in traffic in the hour for 1 hour if not more.

Rtpi seem to be a bit all over the place.

AlekSmart

thomasj wrote: »

Looks like another disastrous evening. People waiting upto an hour if not more for buses.

Dublin bus on twitter are citing major traffic congestion in the lesson street/baggott street/Stephens green area and are saying their buses have been stuck in traffic in the hour for 1 hour if not more.

Rtpi seem to be a bit all over the place.

Tonight,and yesterday's protest codology,rather neatly shows the major Flaw in the NTA's Irish Version of "The London Model" as it intends to foist upon us in 2016 (Route Tendering).

The very people who devised,introduced and operate the "London Model" continually warn other UK cities against trying to introduce/implement/replicate it on a piecemeal basis.

This is because "The London Model" is a vast and massively expensive comprehensive,interactive,mutually supportive collection of sub-systems ALL integrated with one clear goal...MOVEMENT.

Yesterdays protest shows,yet again,that Dublin is decades away from being able to support or utilize a "London Model" as we simply do not have an understanding of it's basic rules nor do we have anybody of sufficient calibre to operate it....However this is not going to stop us pouring Millions of € into a fruitless attempt to Irishify it anyway.

Here's a question....Who was in overall charge of City Centre Traffic yesterday ?

zagmund

I don't know what was going on around Baggott Street this evening, but traffic was the worst I have seen it. Starting at Merrion Row, all lanes in all directions were locked solid. The only traffic I saw move was when I got to the canal. Every other junction was a mess of cars blocking cars. I had (for the first time) to go up the wrong side of the road on my bike because there was no way to even squeeze through any gap in the cars attempting to merge in from the left. It really was manic. Over the canal and everything was gridlocked in all directions again.

z

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Any ideas what happened this evening with the traffic? It was bonkers. Had to abandon bus and get the train.

schemingbohemia

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Any ideas what happened this evening with the traffic? It was bonkers. Had to abandon bus and get the train.

how there wasn't a garda manning the turn from Stephens green to the contra flow bus lane was beyond me. Shocking. They let 50 muppets bring the city to a standstill last night and did nothing to alleviate traffic chaos tonight.
I heard there was a cyclist accident earlier.

dfx-

I'd say one in six scheduled buses operated between 2000 and 2040 from Dun Laoghaire. AX648 operated a 46A at 2016. Not even a 75. They weren't late, they didn't operate. 2200 from Monkstown was a 4C instead of a 4.

59s and 45As were running as normal though..

LXFlyer

The 75 is being hit by very heavy traffic around some of the shopping centres en route (Dundrum, Nutgrove and Rathfarnham).

thomasj

Sure on on the 70 route the 18:10, 18:30 and 19:00 departures from the city did not run and with the 19:30 the bus that runs this service was still on the way out to dunboyne from an earlier service.

Some 39a services were running from the city so at least there were some buses still running on the corridor. Because they were being curtailed, the rtpi was not reflecting what was happening on the ground. For those trying to get a 39a at Suffolk street or further south it hasn't been a good 2 evenings!

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

The 75 is being hit by very heavy traffic around some of the shopping centres en route (Dundrum, Nutgrove and Rathfarnham).

I'd say the approach to Dundrum from Wesley inwards would be chronically slow.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

I'd say the approach to Dundrum from Wesley inwards would be chronically slow.

Well Nutgrove Avenue has been spectacularly bad as well, as has Butterfield Avenue.


Unfortunately this happens in the run up to Christmas every year, and it becomes extremely difficult to maintain schedules on the route.

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

Tonight,and yesterday's protest codology,rather neatly shows the major Flaw in the NTA's Irish Version of "The London Model" as it intends to foist upon us in 2016 (Route Tendering).

The very people who devised,introduced and operate the "London Model" continually warn other UK cities against trying to introduce/implement/replicate it on a piecemeal basis.

This is because "The London Model" is a vast and massively expensive comprehensive,interactive,mutually supportive collection of sub-systems ALL integrated with one clear goal...MOVEMENT.

Yesterdays protest shows,yet again,that Dublin is decades away from being able to support or utilize a "London Model" as we simply do not have an understanding of it's basic rules nor do we have anybody of sufficient calibre to operate it....However this is not going to stop us pouring Millions of € into a fruitless attempt to Irishify it anyway.

Here's a question....Who was in overall charge of City Centre Traffic yesterday ?

I'm not sure what route tendering or the "London Model" as you call it, has to do with Wednesday's chaos?


That was singularly down to the protestors who blocked the key arteries through the city centre, and it would seem, the inability of the Garda Siochana to deal with it effectively.

LXFlyer

Just to further comment on this, both the Irish Times and Irish Independent sum up the problem as the following extracts from reports show:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sit-down-water-protest-causes-traffic-chaos-in-dublin-1.2033390

Just after 2pm members of a group marching from the Garden of Remembrance in the north inner city, down O’Connell Street and on towards the main protest site at Merrion Square across the Liffey decided to stage a sit-down protest.

They blocked O’Connell Bridge in all directions in an action that forced the closure of O’Connell Street and large stretches of the north and south quays, with some of those involved using camping chairs.

Garda resources
The protest, which was not anticipated by gardaí and occurred away from the area where Garda resources were most concentrated around Government Buildings, involved more than 200 people at first.

The protesters stayed in situ for hours and made the usual busy Dublin evening rush-hour traffic even more chaotic due to the road closures and diversions that resulted from their actions. However, senior Garda officers believed the group was trying to provoke a reaction from the force and they decided against deploying the public order unit to clear the junctions.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/water/irish-water-crisis/capital-grinds-to-a-halt-as-50000-people-hit-streets-30820816.html

O'Connell Bridge reopened at about 7.30pm after some 250 lingering protesters blockaded sections of the north and south quays, O'Connell Street and O'Connell Bridge.

Now please tell me Alek, what any of that has to do with route tendering?

The answer is nothing.

Effectively the city was held to ransom by 300 protesters who decided to take the law into their own hands and blockade roads at random, thereby causing maximum disruption to everyone. Let's call a spade a spade here - they didn't give a damn about anyone else.

The Gardaí were unprepared for it.

Therein lies the problem - let's not try to make this anything to do with route tendering (although I see the NBRU are trying to by putting notices on buses and trains again).

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Just to further comment on this, both the Irish Times and Irish Independent sum up the problem as the following extracts from reports show:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sit-down-water-protest-causes-traffic-chaos-in-dublin-1.2033390



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/water/irish-water-crisis/capital-grinds-to-a-halt-as-50000-people-hit-streets-30820816.html



Now please tell me Alek, what any of that has to do with route tendering?

The answer is nothing.

Effectively the city was held to ransom by 300 protesters who decided to take the law into their own hands and blockade roads at random, thereby causing maximum disruption to everyone. Let's call a spade a spade here - they didn't give a damn about anyone else.

The Gardaí were unprepared for it.

Therein lies the problem - let's not try to make this anything to do with route tendering (although I see the NBRU are trying to by putting notices on buses and trains again).

Possibly what Alec was getting at is that if one company with one central control and operating all the bus routes is so badly affected then what will multiple small companies be like, what will the sharing of information and resources be like ? In a situation like wednesday buses are used across routes so you have a bus but no driver on route A but have a driver but no bus on B you can marry the two and provide something of a service, but if Bus A belongs to Company X and Driver B belongs to company Y, you effectively have nothing.

Also will feedback on road blockages from company X be shared with company w, q r and t or will they all have to find out for themselves, will all the different companies have to make up their own plans, how will those plans interact with each other etc etc

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

Just to further comment on this, both the Irish Times and Irish Independent sum up the problem as the following extracts from reports show:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sit-down-water-protest-causes-traffic-chaos-in-dublin-1.2033390

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/water/irish-water-crisis/capital-grinds-to-a-halt-as-50000-people-hit-streets-30820816.html

Now please tell me Alek, what any of that has to do with route tendering?

The answer is nothing. everything.

Effectively the city was held to ransom by 300 protesters who decided to take the law into their own hands and blockade roads at random, thereby causing maximum disruption to everyone. Let's call a spade a spade here - they didn't give a damn about anyone else.

The Gardaí were unprepared for it.

Therein lies the problem - let's not try to make this anything to do with route tendering (although I see the NBRU are trying to by putting notices on buses and trains again).

I beg to differ.

Although the thread is about Wednesdays disruption,my expansion relates to the continuing portrayal by the NTA and others of Bus Route Tendering being "The London Model" in public transport terms.

Now both of us know well that this is far from the case.

I contend that describing the single element of TfL's operation which we are endeavouring to import whole.

I am a strong admirer of the "London Model",and I know well that in situations such as what developed in Dublin City Centre on Wednesday,it's high degree of centralisation,integration and close inter-agency co-operation would have ensured that Public Transport Services were allowed to suffer minimal disruption,particularly when those responsible represented a microscopic number of the total on the march.

What we were presented with was the usual scenario of confusion,uncertainty and reliance on diverse chains of communication which essentially caused Public Bus Services to be halted for several hours.

Will the "Protesters" be handed a bill for their actions ?.

The quote from the Irish Times article says it all really...

The protest, which was not anticipated by Gardaí and occurred away from the area where Garda resources were most concentrated around Government Buildings, involved more than 200 people at first.

The protesters stayed in situ for hours and made the usual busy Dublin evening rush-hour traffic even more chaotic due to the road closures and diversions that resulted from their actions. However, Senior Garda officers believed the group was trying to provoke a reaction from the force and they decided against deploying the public order unit to clear the junctions.

Irish Independent: O'Connell Bridge reopened at about 7.30pm after some 250 lingering protesters blockaded sections of the north and south quays, O'Connell Street and O'Connell Bridge.

Dublin is'nt London as we well know,but for the Garda Authorities to portray this as some mere oversight is laying it on with a trowel.

A 5 minute stroll would have brough one from Nassau St to O Connell Bridge,The Garda Air Unit was deployed,the various Civic and Garda Specific CCTV systems were all available and these "Senior Officers" suggest they were concerned about "provoking a reaction"....:mad:

I would suggest that the "reaction" which our Senior Garda Management were so fearful of was nothing compared to the reactions which a great many Busdrivers took at full force all around the City and County area over the following 24 Hours as passengers waiting all along routes were left to freeze without ANY worthwhile information,particularly as not everybody feels as motivated by the issued as those who attended the march.

So just to reiterate,lx,Yes I do believe that there is a direct link in both of these topics...ie: The Disruption on Wednesday and the marketing of the impending changes in the Public Bus Service operation.

Having a true "London Model" in place on Wednesday would have ensured that BAC services stood a fighting chance of being maintained,rather than collapsing entirely due to some form of Policing vacuum.

Making that link however,is somewhat unsettling for many,as they ponder over whether to reval the True Extent of "The London Model",in it's entirety,to a curious public.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

Effectively the city was held to ransom

calling it "held to ransom" is a bit over the top.

lxflyer wrote: »

The Gardaí were unprepared for it.

well, they had the resources concentrated where the main protest was. they didn't want to inflame the situation, or give people an excuse to have a go at them, so they rightly didn't go in all guns blazing. that was the right tactic as the blocking ended peacefully.

lxflyer wrote: »

I see the NBRU are trying to by putting notices on buses and trains again.

well they need to do what they must to try make it difficult for this to happen at least.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Possibly what Alec was getting at is that if one company with one central control and operating all the bus routes is so badly affected then what will multiple small companies be like, what will the sharing of information and resources be like ? In a situation like wednesday buses are used across routes so you have a bus but no driver on route A but have a driver but no bus on B you can marry the two and provide something of a service, but if Bus A belongs to Company X and Driver B belongs to company Y, you effectively have nothing.

Also will feedback on road blockages from company X be shared with company w, q r and t or will they all have to find out for themselves, will all the different companies have to make up their own plans, how will those plans interact with each other etc etc

That is a good question.


However it's a bit moot considering the first routes being opened to tender are all orbital ones.

AlekSmart

cdebru wrote: »

Possibly what Alec was getting at is that if one company with one central control and operating all the bus routes is so badly affected then what will multiple small companies be like, what will the sharing of information and resources be like ? In a situation like wednesday buses are used across routes so you have a bus but no driver on route A but have a driver but no bus on B you can marry the two and provide something of a service, but if Bus A belongs to Company X and Driver B belongs to company Y, you effectively have nothing.

Also will feedback on road blockages from company X be shared with company w, q r and t or will they all have to find out for themselves, will all the different companies have to make up their own plans, how will those plans interact with each other etc etc

It is one of my misgivings about the current impasse,but only one.

As we are currently witnessing with the elongated "Soft-Launch" of Leapcard,longer even than The Death Of Little Nell,we now surely see the need for the framework and support systems to be fully agreed and operational BEFORE the tinkering with the hardware begins.

With Wednesday's experiences fresh in our minds,we see large swathes of the Travelling Public angry with Dublin Bus,as they seemingly would not divert routes and buses to meet the situation.

Very few complainers appear aware of the role of the Gardai,The City Council and March Organizers in the overall planning for the thing.

When any one of the participants decide to either absent themselves or "go native" then the remainder cannot simply decide to do their own thing,particularly when several hundred full size Large PSV's AND their human occupants are involved.

As lxf posts elsewhere,Garda Management "Not wanting to provoke a reaction" from c.300 hardline activists effectively disinfranchised several thousand non-involved Citizens...all of whom have learned a significant lesson about Senior Garda Managements attitude to challenge...sadly,something which can only percolate down to the rank and file Garda also.

If any Lessons can be learned from Wednesday's fiasco,it is that the NTA MUST put some form of Dublin Transport operational model in place before tendering anything....There is no point in blithely quoting London's experience as being worthwhile,whilst coincidentally introducing one single element and selling it on as the entire thing.

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

I beg to differ.

Although the thread is about Wednesdays disruption,my expansion relates to the continuing portrayal by the NTA and others of Bus Route Tendering being "The London Model" in public transport terms.

Now both of us know well that this is far from the case.

I contend that describing the single element of TfL's operation which we are endeavouring to import whole.

I am a strong admirer of the "London Model",and I know well that in situations such as what developed in Dublin City Centre on Wednesday,it's high degree of centralisation,integration and close inter-agency co-operation would have ensured that Public Transport Services were allowed to suffer minimal disruption,particularly when those responsible represented a microscopic number of the total on the march.

What we were presented with was the usual scenario of confusion,uncertainty and reliance on diverse chains of communication which essentially caused Public Bus Services to be halted for several hours.

Will the "Protesters" be handed a bill for their actions ?.

The quote from the Irish Times article says it all really...

Dublin is'nt London as we well know,but for the Garda Authorities to portray this as some mere oversight is laying it on with a trowel.

A 5 minute stroll would have brough one from Nassau St to O Connell Bridge,The Garda Air Unit was deployed,the various Civic and Garda Specific CCTV systems were all available and these "Senior Officers" suggest they were concerned about "provoking a reaction"....:mad:

I would suggest that the "reaction" which our Senior Garda Management were so fearful of was nothing compared to the reactions which a great many Busdrivers took at full force all around the City and County area over the following 24 Hours as passengers waiting all along routes were left to freeze without ANY worthwhile information,particularly as not everybody feels as motivated by the issued as those who attended the march.

So just to reiterate,lx,Yes I do believe that there is a direct link in both of these topics...ie: The Disruption on Wednesday and the marketing of the impending changes in the Public Bus Service operation.

Having a true "London Model" in place on Wednesday would have ensured that BAC services stood a fighting chance of being maintained,rather than collapsing entirely due to some form of Policing vacuum.

Making that link however,is somewhat unsettling for many,as they ponder over whether to reval the True Extent of "The London Model",in it's entirety,to a curious public.

I'm not sure that really there was a realistic solution to this Alek.

When people are blockading different routes completely at random and on a rolling basis, as they were, it becomes next to near impossible to plan an effective solution.

Circa 300 people decided to cause maximum disruption to the city centre, which had massive knock on effects across the network, and thereby infuriating the vast majority of people who were trying to get to/from work.

It frankly beggars belief that this could happen and that some people are even trying to justify it.

I'm still struggling to see whatever this may have to do with orbital routes being put out to tender.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

That is a good question.

However it's a bit moot considering the first routes being opened to tender are all orbital ones.

Moot for today,lx...however the "Londion Model" is an all encompassing one,and designed to facilitate an entire City,including those peripherals,to function,even when disruption,planned or unplanned occurs.

Meaningfully organizing and resourcing a true TfL style Operational Transport Authority is an absolute Necessity if this City is to move ahead.

When the previous Government decided to remove the Land Use & Planning Powers from the DTA/NTA and reduce the Authorities role to one of "Interested Observer",was when I first suspected that the Heart was not in it for true change.....nothing that has occurred so far this week has changed my opinion.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

That is a good question.


However it's a bit moot considering the first routes being opened to tender are all orbital ones.

So wait till it happens before addressing it ? Now is the time to put in whatever structures are needed rather than finding out we don't have any when we need them.

Blut2

So Wednesday's traffic has an obvious cause - the protests. But what was the deal last night? Traffic was completely gridlocked from UCD to Stephens green going INTO town at 7:30pm. I've never in my life seen traffic like that, going in that direction, at that time.

cdebru

Blut2 wrote: »

So Wednesday's traffic has an obvious cause - the protests. But what was the deal last night? Traffic was completely gridlocked from UCD to Stephens green going INTO town at 7:30pm. I've never in my life seen traffic like that, going in that direction, at that time.

Santa

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

So wait till it happens before addressing it ? Now is the time to put in whatever structures are needed rather than finding out we don't have any when we need them.

I didn't say that - but we are two years away from that, which is plenty of time to put the necessary structures in place.

Personally I'd be far more concerned that the garda let 300 people grind the city centre to a standstill. It just simply shouldn't be allowed to happen.

thomasj

cdebru wrote: »

Santa

But Santa's here until the 24th.......

:eek: