The coaches corner: Week 1

pconn062

So eventually I am getting around to putting this idea together. It was suggested that similar to the "AR/tist in the spotlight" series we could do a "coaches corner" series where a coach would come in and take questions and tell us about their own background/methodology/ideas etc. So for the trial run of this idea, ECOLII has kindly agreed to step up and be the guinea pig for the first outing!

So, in order to make this thread work we need YOU to go out and talk to your club coaches or anyone you know with a coaching background who might be willing to come in and answer questions for a while and talk about their training practices. If you know of anyone or you are in fact a coach yourself then please PM me with your interest. This could be a really interesting series but it will need a little work to convince people to get involved.

So without further ado, a few questions for ECOLII to get started:

When did you first get involved in coaching?
Have you done any official coaching training with AI or any other organisation?
Biggest influence on your methodology?
Could you sum up your core training philosophies for us?

OK, get your thinking hats on for some questions!

Chivito550

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w-BAr_4_wI

ECOLII

Thanks pconn

Definitely think this could be an interesting one and I think even self coached people would be able to give good insight also so hopefully there will be good feedback from people willing to talk about their approach even if it creates a bit of discussion and gets people thinking about the why rather than the how (even in their own approaches).

Gonna take these one at a time

When did you first get involved in coaching?

Boards was actually where I first started. I have been running since I was a kid but the group I ran with growing up ended up all taking separate paths (everything from guys moving to sprints to guys going on scholarship stateside). I kinda tagged on to one or two guys with new coaches but ultimately ended up self coaching in college as I was always more suited to the longer stuff in comparison to most of the guys.

After I ran my first half I thought I knew it all as I had managed to get second u23 in the race so I actually posted here looking for anyone interested;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65380168

I had mixed success but it opened my eyes a bit and humbled me which was needed.

Kurt Godel approached me to mentor a sub 3 thread for DCM and initially I refused as I thought tergat would be a better suit but when he turned it down I stepped up.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055929277

Again I made mistakes and though people got PB's along the way ultimately I was still missing the vital experience in coaching marathon needed to fully appreciate the marathon.

It was at the end of this that a poster approached me as his target race was a few weeks later than DCM and given it was one poster I decided there was no point keeping the thread going so I did one to one coaching with him. Race got called off and targeted a later race and continued to work with him and by the end of it he did manage to get under the three hours comfortably.

Since then I have worked with a number of boardsies when approached. Rarely approach them as don't like putting people on the spot (especially when I was a mod) but if asked I generally have no problem working with people.

I did spend a good part of the year working with my local club in a sprints coach capacity however nature of my work meant I couldn't be there 4 nights a week so I didn't think it was fair on the athletes to have a blow in coach. I did get to work under head coaches who have produced some great results over last 3 years and learned alot though and hopefully I can go back to this at a later stage when I can get out of shift work (working towards last few years)

ECOLII

pconn062 wrote: »

Have you done any official coaching training with AI or any other organisation?

In terms of formal education my list of credentials is not exactly endless

- 2 college modules in applied biology in Sport and Exercise
- AAI Level 1 coaching

Aside from these my Sports Therapy/Neuromuscular therapy qualifications are heavily based around Anatomy and Exercise Physiology but other than that in terms of coach most of my education is from experience (both coaching and being coached under 4 different approaches) and through reading through every sort of approach that I could find (anyone who has been on the plinth will know the ever growing library of training and Physiology books in my library )

ECOLII

Biggest influence on your methodology?

Over the past 7 years have read every bit of material I could including books from Lydiard, Peter Coe, Canova,Harry Wilson, Hudson's, Magness, Rubio, Magill, Livingstone, Books on Kenyan Training, Letsrun and everything in between. I have gotten to the stage now where I look past the training and how the approaches differ and the logic behind why they are doing something and whether the best physiological approach is the best of that athlete.

In terms of influences to what I actually prescribe the two biggest influences that are probably apparent to me would be;

My own coach in 2011
Mark Hadley

The coach in question had very little experience in coaching before hand but had good pedigree himself and when sitting down to discuss training the approach made sense and seemed like a good fit. Biggest thing I got from this was on recovery side, and changing my perspective on how to use the ingredients of training to the best of there abilities up until this point It was a much too formulaic approach.

Once I left the coach (timing issue) I wanted some sort of accountability so went for a generic plan which made sense to me and came across MPR's (Hadley) posts on letsrun. It made sense and the more I read the more I applied and have seen great results with. Alot of my training is loosely based around a combination of the two approaches depending on how I feel they fit the athlete I am dealing with.

Ceepo

Hi Ecoli
A few more questions for you if you don't mind.

What do you see as your greatest strength and weakness as a coach.?

Do you coach juvenile and senior athletes ?

Do you see yourself been able to stay running competitive and been able to coach effectively without them impinging on each other ?

Enough for now. I might have more at a later stage😉

ECOLII

Hopefully this is coherent enough as it's not someone I have sat down and worked out from a coaching centric point of view previously.

Could you sum up your core training philosophies for us?

Consistency a focal point
I tend to avoid the big confidence boosting sessions week in week out to the point where many of my athletes surprise themselves to a point when we have a race or key workout. To me its not about hitting x,y and z targets along the way but rather getting work done week after week and month after month and avoid injuries at all cost. In this sense I would always err on side of caution with recovery and days off if it can be helped

Individualization
Always look at a person's background not just recent but overall. Every decision made along the way has an impact on how to proceed down the line. The example I always use is people who make huge gains when they drop the mileage after years of sustained high volume. Often these people look at the quality over quantity as what work for them personally but I tend to look at it as focusing on weaknesses after years of focusing on strengths. Every training cycle will have a different focus and everything should build on what was done previously

Aerobic development primary focus
Given that I have only really dealt with boardsies runners this is more based around the environment. Most are in the early stages of their running coming from a non club setting focusing on distances from 1500m up and as such I tend focus the training around these types of energy pathways and maximising potential because it present best bang for your buck.

Variety is the spice of life
Avoid repeating same type of session too often in a cycle. Runners are competitive by nature and having them run same session every so often just encourages racing workouts in order to give yourself confidence through improvement in times. People (including yourself) only care about your races not what you did in a workout so don't rely no your training times and avoid becoming a workout warrior. Even if I am trying to get the same sort of training stimulus from sessions every 2-3 weeks I would always avoid having them as directly comparible.

Keep in touch with all paces
Never neglect a training pace. Training cycle should touch on all paces in some shape or form at all times. When you get to specific training in the latter stages of a training cycle you change the emphasis but there should be some element of each pace. People always see the aerobic and anaerobic pathways as independent but people may find it interesting enough to know that even on an easy run in the early stages you are working anaerobically believe it or not. Nothing in the body works in isolation and as such training any element in isolation (in a general sense) won't yield optimal results

Having the training fit the person
Its a hobby for majority of us so you have to look to lifestyle and take on board when adjusting training however you also have to look to the characteristics of the person. Our personality comes out in our approach and some times you have to use the less optimal physiological training to get the best results. If you had 20 athletes of same background same talent level same targets in same race and gave them the same approach you would see that some race too much, some race too little, some train too hard some train to easy all dependent on personality traits. Some times having an athlete fail a workout or race can be the best thing for them at that particular time others you intentionally give them easier session because the confidence boost out weighs and physical benefits

ECOLII

What do you see as your greatest strength and weakness as a coach.?

Greatest strength

Greatest strength is probably experience. I have made many mistakes with my own self coaching to the point that I can not only tell you why it doesn't work but I usually can put myself in the shoes of the person making the mistake as I probably was thinking the same thing when I made mistake myself :P

Other than this I think it probably a case of being able to break an idea down to it's simplest form and explaining the logic behind it. To me an athlete should know the why behind a session. If you look at most text books/ research journals that come out in any field you will see that most are not directed at the reader it is a tit for tat against their peers. Always believe that unless you can't explain it in terms that a 6yr old can't understand you don't truly have a grasp on the concept to implement it successfully.

Science of any form should explain everyday life not complicate it further.

Greatest weakness

Personality. I am non confrontational to the point where I have in the past accommodated idea's that ultimately proved to be not in the best interest of the athlete.

ECOLII

Ceepo wrote: »

Do you coach juvenile and senior athletes ?

Majority of athletes I coach are from boards. Unfortunately due to the nature of my work alot of this is done remotely as I work irregular hours.

Previously the sprints group I was working with in the club were juveniles but as I was not able to commit to making every session night of the week it wasn't fair on the athletes to have an absentee coach so I stepped down completely.

ECOLII

Ceepo wrote: »

Do you see yourself been able to stay running competitive and been able to coach effectively without them impinging on each other ?

As it stands at the moment there is little too no clash due the remote nature of it (majority of athletes are outside of Dublin and Ireland) I would like to be more hands on but unfortunately my own occupations make this impossible.

I think if I do start to manage to work for myself which I am working towards I will be able to manage both as I rather than be competitive with a person I coach I would actually love for them to surpass the limitations I have set on myself.

RayCun

I assume the nature of the coaching means a series of compromises between you and the athletes, you can't just give them a plan and tell them to follow it, they'll plead time, work, kids etc. Are there any key sessions you really want to make sure aren't dropped? What do you get the most resistance to?

How far ahead do you plan? How far ahead would you like to plan - when someone approaches you to train for a target, how far in advance of that target would you like to start?

Do you advocate a base-building block of endurance work only, or do you think people should keep in touch with everything? What about racing? Regularly all through the year, mainly in the build-up to a target race...?

ECOLII

I assume the nature of the coaching means a series of compromises between you and the athletes, you can't just give them a plan and tell them to follow it, they'll plead time, work, kids etc. Are there any key sessions you really want to make sure aren't dropped? What do you get the most resistance to?


Compromise with life commitments is something which I tend to be fairly open with in terms of most of my athletes. Normally they only get a week in advance at a time and from there they can usually give me heads up about commitments and they are taken into account. This allows me to explain why a session is being done and what the outcomes I want usually. I find if an athlete knows how it fits into the overall plan they tend to be able to prioritize it accordingly.

There are certain key sessions I tend to want focus on such as last big session 3 weeks out from a marathon or the week of a marathon dress rehearsal, others are particularly key in terms of confidence and I will stress them to be done.

Most resistance comes with the issue of racing either telling someone to race when they feel they are not ready for a PB or when they are in flying form and try pull them back to prevent them flogging it because they are afraid they will lose fitness by not racing somehow.

ECOLII

How far ahead do you plan? How far ahead would you like to plan - when someone approaches you to train for a target, how far in advance of that target would you like to start?

Ideally the longer the better. In an ideal world I would prefer to get 30 weeks with an athlete to actually get them used to the adaptations of a new training style previous to a specific training cycle for a target goal. I always try to build cycle on cycle so as such I will tend to work with an athlete until they wish to take a different approach or I feel that I am holding them back from progression and field there is a good alternative (I can think of one example of this off hand)

ECOLII

RayCun wrote: »

Do you advocate a base-building block of endurance work only, or do you think people should keep in touch with everything? What about racing? Regularly all through the year, mainly in the build-up to a target race...?

With regards base building with some of the athlete I work with depending on their background sometimes I will advocate aerobic running with very little work quicker than steady pace. Normally this is when I feel they need to recover from illness, injury, overtraining or simply don't have the bio-mechanical strength to handle the require volume to make the approach beneficial to the athlete.

Others I feel have plenty of miles in the legs but very little non specific marathon training done I will work on them in terms of overall general running specific athleticism. with these we will do alot of various paced work in base building where you manipulate the demands of the training so that they are still endurance based phase of training even with various paced work.

I have done sessions such as 20x400 in "base phase" or even 800m paced work for turnover but the recoveries were adjusted so that they weren't demanding from an energy pathway point of view. Take for example if I said to you 100m reps most people would see this as "speed work" or fast twitch fibre or anaerobic (what ever term you want to use) however if I said 3 miles on track with 100 strides on straight, 100m jog the bends suddenly you have an aerobically focused low intensity session.

Racing all year around for sure. Racing is as much a skill to be developed as any other aspect of the of the sport. Sessions are great but by nature are not specific you will never replicated race nerves, how you deal with people around you, how you react when things don't go to plan.

If you just take pace as one variable - you can run all your reps on a target course at right intensity at right pace and come to race day and suddenly race nerves can affect that or a good night sleep or what you eat the morning of, likewise how often are you able to train at the exact same time during week as you would race at week all these things are often overlooked in an under racing scenario. There are times when confidence is low and racing should be avoided but ultimately racing is like anything the more you can fit it into your overall training plan (without compromising training) the more efficiently is your ability to race.

In terms of races in relation to target depending on the distance some times I will have someone race less in build up to a marathon than in the general phase depending on which gets the best results in relation to amount of recovery time needed compared to confidence got for the race effort. If I can gain similar confidence from a more controlled session I will usually opt for that in the specific phase for longer distances

Timmaay

Struggling to think up of questions for ya Ecoli, but some great answers, brilliant idea for a thread.

Actually one question, where to now for ya?? Would you ever considered club coaching more consistently in the future, or what stage in your life would it suit? You mentioned about not having the time now to be able to reliably coach a group as such, its basically the very same with me, moving forward I don't see that changing any day soon 2bh, probably not until well into my 40s and when (if ha) I had kids coming through the ranks.

ECOLII

Actually one question, where to now for ya?? Would you ever considered club coaching more consistently in the future, or what stage in your life would it suit? You mentioned about not having the time now to be able to reliably coach a group as such, its basically the very same with me, moving forward I don't see that changing any day soon 2bh, probably not until well into my 40s and when (if ha) I had kids coming through the ranks.

Honestly I would do it in a heart beat.

Currently I am working towards going into the therapy business full time in the next 2-3 years. If I that does go through and I am able to leave my current full time job I will be able to commit to a set time every day to attend training.

For me this would allow me to give a bit more feedback on supplementary work (Strength and conditioning, running drills, form, plyometrics etc). This is one aspect I generally do not advise on with athletes not because I do not think it's important but because technique and posture in every day life have such an impact there is no universal running cues. What works for one person is an injury risk for another and as such advising remotely on such aspects is something I would urge people to avoid personally.

dna_leri

Good thread, I have a lot of respect for the many coaches around the country who do a great job and really are the heart of the sport in this country.

Few questions on that theme:
What needs to be done to improve the coaching structure in Ireland? Do you think coaches should be paid by clubs/athletes? Do you do it all for the love of the sport?

Chivito550

I'd like to do some coaching in the future (at what level I have no idea), but I have this idea in my head that I don't want to coach anyone until I reach a certain level of performance with my own running, so I can justify to myself that I have practiced in the past what I will preach in the future, and to give myself some credibility among these hypothetical athletes that I would be coaching. Is this a valid thought process? Or does it really matter what level one reaches in their own running, with regards future coaching?

ECOLII

dna_leri wrote: »

Good thread, I have a lot of respect for the many coaches around the country who do a great job and really are the heart of the sport in this country.

Few questions on that theme:
What needs to be done to improve the coaching structure in Ireland? Do you think coaches should be paid by clubs/athletes? Do you do it all for the love of the sport?

I am going to come back to this one in the morning as it will be a long enough post with some great questions

ECOLII

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'd like to do some coaching in the future (at what level I have no idea), but I have this idea in my head that I don't want to coach anyone until I reach a certain level of performance with my own running, so I can justify to myself that I have practiced in the past what I will preach in the future, and to give myself some credibility among these hypothetical athletes that I would be coaching. Is this a valid thought process? Or does it really matter what level one reaches in their own running, with regards future coaching?

It's a good questions and a valid point that goes beyond just coaching but I think that there is a fine balance between experience and knowledge.

To give you an example my first coach had no participation background in athletes yet he has produced International athletes from the 400m to 10k as well as training up coaches who have reached level of National team co-ordinators.

Personal performance can be great for first impressions but ultimately like anything you are based on your performance in the particular role you do. There are many poor coaches with good athletes and likewise many great coaches who go under the radar because they get the best out of limited ability ultimately it's the latter that often defines a great coach.

Many great athletes do go into coaching and fail yet initially get top class talent as a result of their athletic reputation.

Ceepo

Thanks for the replies.

Where do you stand on Nutrition. Paleo V's LCHF V's Healthy balanced diet.

As you coach from a distance. What format do you use to give you athletes there schedules and get feedback, ie email, phone, Google doc's etc.

Do you see any need to get coaching badges or is in your opinion only a selling point for initial enquiry 's

ECOLII

What needs to be done to improve the coaching structure in Ireland?

For me it's transfer of knowledge. The development of coaches in this country lacks continuity. A coach declares an interest, learns through education and circumstance of chance, hones their own approach, produces athletes and then usually falls away for some reason. For me the biggest thing missing in coaching in this country is the assistant coach.

This probably comes back to the discussions of old regarding "superclubs" but if you can structure a coaching hierarchy you can create a shadowing style program where upcoming coaches can get hands on experience under the watchful eye of someone with experience. Coaching these days is too theory based ignoring things which have been proven in the past through experience to work.

Have new coaches working with existing under the guise of a discipline co-ordinator (Middle/ Long Distance, Sprints, Jumps, Throws) and have them answer to overall Coaching director who can liase with committee. This way you are educating new coaches, existing coaches are held accountable to someone for the overall welfare of the athletes long term progression while being kept out of the politics associated with many clubs.

Club links /affiliations should be encouraged also. If the nearby club has a good throws coach while you have a good jumps coach link up for a quid pro quo scenario regarding not just training of athletes but training of coaches. There may be reservation to a point in this as coaches can tend to be a little secretive or afraid of competition but competition in coaching should be encouraged. What makes a coach isn't having the magic formula it's about how you react when things aren't going right.

For smaller clubs where this is not possible use the environment that is around you - Rugby teams often tend to be fairly well up on Strength and conditioning coaching, Basketballers with Plyometrics, gymnastics with flexibility running often is seen for speed or endurance so again try and explain the mutual benefits.

In terms of education again the shadowing aspect is something which should be mandatory as part of coaching education. X amount of hours under x amount of coaches to see the differences in application of the theory learned.

ECOLII

Do you think coaches should be paid by clubs/athletes?

When reading this first I thought this would be easy to answer but the more I thought about it the more difficult I found it to answer properly.

In the sports current state in the country no I think most clubs rightly are focused on facility development for the most part and given the lack of money in the sport I think this is the right focus at the end of the day athletes make the sport not coaches, the more facilities you have the more you can attract athletes to track and field however I feel that ultimately that to really progress as a sport in this country paying coaches offers some huge benefits;

Life after retirement
One of the biggest problems with athletics in terms of the huge drop off is the fact that after years of sacrificing the livelihood for the pursuit of the sport they retire and effectively for the most part have to start life in the real world with a 15 year handicap. Outside of sports therapy and the odd shoe manufacturing marketer there aren't to many jobs which are directly benefited from having been a runner.
There should be avenues opened up to allow kids to see that there is light at the end of the tunnel even if you don't become that 0.0000001% of people who end up with financial security as a result of your global success in the sport.
This also enables many athletes to stay in the sport after retirement. Many throw themselves into the new jobs to try and offset the lack of experience in full time jobs and as a result their knowledge and experience tends to be lost upon retirement.

The one premise about paying coaches I would put is if the coaches are treating it as a job then this must be shown in how they approach coaching i.e constant upskilling, prep work for training sessions, regular one to one interaction with athletes for feedback etc, overall planning of athletes season etc which is why I believe in it's current guise paying coaches is not a good idea

one to one coaching

I think in this regard its a very fine line. If the fee is high a coach will take on too many athletes and spread themselves too thin in order to make money. For me this is no more than exploitation of people's insecurities and desires to improve. Cost and value in this country for some reason always tend to be viewed as linked especially in terms of services.

Free one to one coaching also has it's pitfall's in that someone can try it while it's working and the moment it doesn't suit them there is no loss (i.e changing a session etc).

In that sense I think a very nominal fee can work quite well unless you can be certain the athlete has complete trust in your training (rare but not impossible). With a nominal fee they usually will say to themselves "I'm paying for this so I'm gonna stick to the plan" likewise it should give the coach a bit of accountability that someone is paying for the service so therefor that service should be of the highest standard possible.

ECOLII

Do you do it all for the love of the sport?

Reading this question brings me back to the psychological debate about True Altruism. Yes I do love the sport and yes I do want to give back as I have learned so much from other people but there are plenty of selfish reasons also.

- The mix between my competitive nature and growing up in the sport means I love PB's and to me I get as much of a buzz out of a good performance from an athlete as I do myself (which is great as with coaching athletes means alot more races for me to follow closely )

- The never ending nature vs nurture debate. Being self coached and looking back on my training I know I lacked consistency at times and every year tended to disappear for a couple of months. I normally put that down v ability as limiting factors however you always question whether the approach is ever truly the best so as a coach I always tend to try and develop and improve as a way of trying to some day get to the bottom of that as you get to work with varying ability levels

- Business. I would be lying if I didn't say that my therapy business doesn't play a role. Having a presence in the sport to some degree plays as you build on the contacts you have and sustain it with your skills. Coaching, participating, spectating etc all play a role in this regard.

If I did not love every minute of it however there is no way I could sustain it and genuinely feel that through coaching you can educate others in my approach and from there some day they can do the same for someone else. It's a niche sport and the only way to develop it is collectively.

ECOLII

Where do you stand on Nutrition. Paleo V's LCHF V's Healthy balanced diet?

This will probably open a can of worms but here goes. If you asked me the best approach for an athlete I would say even without looking at any science that a healthy balanced diet wins every time for one simple reason science and application are completely different. The effects of nutrition on physiology is huge on so many levels but people try to look at systems in the body as individual and not working as one as such most people don't know the knock on effects enough to know how ensure that the approach is healthy.

How many Paleo follower's know that muscle and not bone is one of the primary functions of calcium when cutting dairy out of their diet?
How many Paleo followers can't live without their post workout whey protein shakes?
How many LCHF followers can tell you what acylation stimulating protein is and how this affects the approach?
Or the impact that "cheat days" can have in regards diabetes risk in later life?

I am not going to go into the theory behind the approaches (enough good and bad information around to keep you reading for ever) but if scientist are in constant debates over this how can you truly apply any approaches to every food choice made in life.

Education should be the primary focus but not on the best approach, on the effects the basic has on your body as a whole. My advice regarding diet is simple - conscious eating. Always weigh up a food choice with a good and bad alternative, even if you do go for that filthy kebab the fact you make an active choice will allow you to associate cause and effect of foods, bad foods causing tiredness, slow recovery, poor sleep etc will be associated to the point where your mind will actively seek out positive effect foods.

ECOLII

Ceepo wrote: »

As you coach from a distance. What format do you use to give you athletes there schedules and get feedback, ie email, phone, Google doc's etc.

All of the above to be honest, boards logs, emails, phone calls, google docs, garmin links, the odd meet up. The more feedback you can get the better and often the best information you will get is the indirect stuff, i.e what's not said. The more feedback is given the more you can spot these indirect gaps You have to know an athlete well enough to know when they are sandbagging or harder than they should be and this is something which goes beyond paces and HR.

There have been plenty of times where I have had session's planned for athletes and they are a little baffled when I change to an easier session after they have absolutely nailed their last ones on paper to the point where they are almost disappoint. Likewise there have been times where I have missed warning signs that were right in front of me.

I think many coaches are part motivator and part cognitive behavioral therapist at times

Hannibal Smith

ECOLII wrote: »

Most resistance comes with the issue of racing either telling someone to race when they feel they are not ready for a PB or when they are in flying form and try pull them back to prevent them flogging it because they are afraid they will lose fitness by not racing somehow.

A lot of the time you have to judge from your own body and what it's capable of.

How do you know its time to push on and push yourself without pushing on too soon and injuring yourself? Is it a coach who tells you or are there signs yourself.

How long should you be running for before you start adding speed etc or is it a weekly mileage based calculation as opposed to an overall years type thing?

How long should you spend at a particular plan before deciding to change it and what's the first bit of speed trainingyou would ssuggest to someone?

ECOLII

Do you see any need to get coaching badges or is in your opinion only a selling point for initial enquiry 's?

To be honest selling point is not something that is usually associated with with the AAI coaching badges. For me it was to give me the skills required to be able to coach at juvenile level as my experience was with adults to that point.

I think they coaching badges do open you up to new idea's and I definitely picked up a good bit regarding event's which I didn't have a background it. Coaching badges or any other form of formal education don't mean much depending on how you use them

ECOLII

A lot of the time you have to judge from your own body and what it's capable of.

Would agree with you to a point and 95% of the time the onus should be on the athlete but the coach is there for that other 5% of the time just to be able to look at it objectively without emotion and tell you know when you don't want to hear it (something which as a coach has been my downfall at times). I know for me one of the biggest flaws in training is knee jerk reactions when something doesn't go right which has caused illness, injury and underperformance in the past but we don't have the luxury of hindsight in the decision making process always.

ECOLII

How do you know its time to push on and push yourself without pushing on too soon and injuring yourself? Is it a coach who tells you or are there signs yourself.

Regarding pushing on I presume you mean increase training volume? Volume increases will rarely cause injury provided you are doing it in a safe way, often it is running too hard too much that is the issue.

If you are looking to add an extra day or double day start off using it as a recovery day (20-30 min at much slower than easy pace) after a couple of weeks you will then start to adjust this.

In terms of progression of training don't see it as a giant leap but rather baby steps

If you run easy 40 min 3 times a week work towards getting to 45 min per run each day

Progression
40-40-40
40-45-40
45-40-45
45-45-45

next month add a recovery day
45-45-15(rec)-45
45-50-15(rec)-45
45-50-15(rec)-50
50-50-15(rec)-50

Suddenly over 8 weeks you have added 45 min or roughly 25% to overall volume.

Mileage increases for the sake of mileage increases though are not progression. I would advise you to look at your training and where the stimulus for stress and adaptation is. If you are relatively new to sport time on you feet is whats need to get the body prepare to train then something along these lines is perfect. If you are including sessions then make sure you are not ramping up mileage at the expense of the workouts.

Progression should always be the focus you should never be standing still with training but volume does not always equal progression and sometimes you can get stronger by running less (if session are focus of progression then working towards getting more efficient at race pace(s) will be evident in the progression of training.

ECOLII

How long should you be running for before you start adding speed etc or is it a weekly mileage based calculation as opposed to an overall years type thing?

As much as a cop out as this is I think the best answer is as soon as someone can handle it. You have to factor in weight, height, sporting background, age, injury history. For the majority of athletes I would encourage them to do some form of turnover work straight away for biomechanical purpose's you want to promote efficient running from a very early stage rather than have to try change what has set in through muscle memory.

Something as simple as a couple of strides @ a controlled faster effort is sufficient however in early stages and can go a long way.

In terms of more formal workouts majority of people will benefit for years with just easy/steady running and a couple of strides so I would encourage alot of people to keep going with it as long as you can till you start seeing stagnation or leveling off of times

Hannibal Smith

Thank you so much ecolii.

Can I sneak one more in?

Garmin....at an early stage and going on what you've said already presumably there's no point getting one until the runs start becoming more structured? Or is it handy even for early stages say to keep an eye on your pace while running?

Netwerk Errer

Hi Ecoli

There is a huge drop-off in juvenile athletes competing in Ireland from age 14 up. While in the US, athletics is the highest participatory sport between the ages of 13-18. How do you think the Irish structure can be improved to encourage young athletes to continue in this sport? What can be learned from the US system?

ECOLII

Garmin....at an early stage and going on what you've said already presumably there's no point getting one until the runs start becoming more structured? Or is it handy even for early stages say to keep an eye on your pace while running?

A great tool but should never be seen as more. The more feedback you can get in relation to your running especially in the early stages the better you will get to know your body.

Basing on effort is ideally best approach but how do you tell an athlete to base effort on 1 mile pace or 3k pace (or Marathon pace) for that matter if they have ran one race at that pace since they started running.

Likewise telling an athlete paces has same pitfalls as effort levels change depending on surroundings. The best way is to get an athlete to not rely on any one tool whether it is HR monitor, Garmin, Effort level as there are cons to all. If a runner can become familiar with how the body reacts to each of these sensory inputs they are able to get to a stage where they can make logical decisions and adjustments within training.

The problem is most don't do the later and focus on one guide as being a determinant rather than a guide.

ECOLII

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Hi Ecoli
There is a huge drop-off in juvenile athletes competing in Ireland from age 14 up. While in the US, athletics is the highest participatory sport between the ages of 13-18. How do you think the Irish structure can be improved to encourage young athletes to continue in this sport? What can be learned from the US system?

I think the comparison here is slightly flawed as it is financially driven. College fees play a major role in the latter given the amount of scholarships on offer than can effectively be the difference between starting your adult life debt free or not (or in other cases whether you go to college or not) here jobs, drinking culture etc all play more of a role in the drop off rate prior to this.

Compare the US drop off rates post collegiate to here and you would say that we probably fair as well if not better. It's an all or nothing mentality. As mentioned earlier I think there needs to be a viable light at the end of the tunnel in athletics to provide avenues towards a financially stable future for those outside the top 1%.

pconn062

Great answers and questions so far!

A few more from me:

As a coach, do you think you would find it hard to be coached yourself now? Would you find yourself questioning any training you were given?
Who do you consider the top coaches in the country at the moment?
I know you wouldn't have that much experience coaching kids, but at what age do you think it is suitable for kids to start "proper" training? Sessions/going out for runs on non-club training days?
And lastly, how did you find the AI level 1? Worth doing? Have been considering it myself.

ECOLII

As a coach, do you think you would find it hard to be coached yourself now? Would you find yourself questioning any training you were given?

Great question and one I have asked myself numerous times over the last 18 months. There are times when I felt that I did need to accountability, I was losing focus for what ever reason and needed someone to answer to.

I came very close on a few occasions during the year to approaching tRR for training and another guy who is self coached and has an impressive resumé (sub 14/30 5k/10k times from self coaching) but ultimately I decided against it not because of ego, I wouldn't be conceited enough to think I know more than them but ultimately I would be a horrible athlete for the exact reasons you highlighted above.

For coaching to work you have to have complete faith in the coach and the approach, if you don't and start tweaking sessions etc (actively rather than life commitments) you are on a slippery slope and ultimately both you and the coach are wasting their time and you are better of self coaching at that point.

ECOLII

pconn062 wrote: »

Who do you consider the top coaches in the country at the moment?

Probably the toughest question to answer. Most often than not the best coaches don't coach the best athletes yet it takes a good athlete to get a coach recognition. The easy answer would be to take a look at the AAI website and take a look at the list of coaches beside the team names. Most likely the best coach is probably some guy from the back end of no where who I have never heard of but is getting the best out of the talent pool he has.

Subjectively however the few who come to mind are;

Jerry Kiernan
The man people love to hate . You can judge for yourself the top talent he has available to him however in the last few years I have started to hear of the many athletes he has coached under the radar who have produced damn good results. If you look at break through performances this year however Ciara and Travers are ones which are definitely up there.

Rob Denmead
Meticulous in his nature and has produced some of the top up and coming talent for years. Personally i feel doesn't get as much credit as he deserves for a few reasons.

These are definitely subjective however as in terms of approaches I don't have that much insight into coaching practices so be unfair of me to comment on the basis of results alone.

ECOLII

I know you wouldn't have that much experience coaching kids, but at what age do you think it is suitable for kids to start "proper" training? Sessions/going out for runs on non-club training days?

Personally I think kids should be active from as early an age as possible. The modern sedentary culture is something which needs to be tackled head on so if you can get activity ingrained in every day life at very young age it can have huge ramifications. Gone are the days of playing curbs, going to local field to play football or many of the unstructured activities that used to be play

In terms of joining an athletic club 7-8 is plenty. The first 5 years should just be just skill based games making it fun while inadvertently developing the fundamental athletic components. Talent will later determine which avenue that an athlete will take but without the foundation of all aspects there is no way in truly comparing potential vs general upbringing (conditioning) to a particular element.

At about 12-13 I would say is the right time to introduce more structured training however I would tend to be in favour of a multi discipline approach here with a non specialized focus. I know many will believe that leaving specific training till 15-16 is probably a bit on the late side in terms of development for endurance events but I remember actually looking at the elements of a middle - long distance training program and something struck me as to how this can be adapted to a juvenile approach without being specialized

Aerobic development, Strength and conditiong, Flexibility, Neural pathway development and plyometrics

These are elements which we aim to tackle in our own training after we become more specific but is something we can also develop a foundation for in earlier life by trying are hand at a multi discipline approach in our early teens

Long Jump/ High Jump - Muscle elasticity/recoil power/ plyometrics - As an adult we aim to use plyometric training achieve this
Shotputt/Discus - Explosive power/ strength and conditioning - Gym work in later life which is an essential part of a distance runners training
Hurdles - Flexibility - Something we all crave in later life in hamstrings particularly, can impact power in adulthood
Sprints - CNS recruitment - Speed development (Strides/ speedwork)
Distance - Aerobic development - Distance training

ECOLII

And lastly, how did you find the AI level 1? Worth doing? Have been considering it myself

It won't make or break you as a coach but you could definitely could pick up a few things from it if you have a weekend free. The coaches teaching each of the engaging and very approachable and were engaging. Picked up a good bit in terms of field event's coaching and aspects which I wouldn't have a huge background in (apart from competing as a youngster)

If your sole purpose is to develop you skills as a distance coach you probably won't gain a huge amount from it though.

PVincent

Brilliant insights , thanks so much for your complete honesty and openness. I am interested in your views on a couple of things. What is your view on sports phycology and the role it has within your coaching ethos. And then following on from that , I believe that one of the most important statements that you made in the answers was that the person you are coaching Must have complete faith in the coach and the programme. This side of coaching is missed by many and whilst many have knowledge and qualifications, a lot do not have the required People Skills. ( a lot more relevant in other sports to be fair) . Do you think that this needs to be addressed within the learning programmes for coaches. With the way the world has gone today and communications largely by email, txt, etc, the younger coaches coming thro I feel will find it difficult in one to one and even more so in group coaching.

ultrapercy

Id just want to say this is one of the most interesting threads Ive ever read on boards. A great idea and a very insightful first subject.

inigo

ultrapercy wrote: »

Id just want to say this is one of the most interesting threads Ive ever read on boards. A great idea and a very insightful first subject.

Agree with you 100%. Thanks to ecolii and all involved!

Murph_D

inigo wrote: »

Agree with you 100%. Thanks to ecolii and all involved!

+1 Really interesting insights and reflections from someone obviously steeped in the sport. Thanks.

Vito Andolini

This has been a great thread really enjoyed reading it, just a quick one from coaching runners of different levels what's the most common obstacle runners face in meeting they're goals?

Timmaay

"PVincent wrote: »

With the way the world has gone today and communications largely by email, txt, etc, the younger coaches coming thro I feel will find it difficult in one to one and even more so in group coaching.

Do you mean from the point of view that too much social media results in reduced/hindered ability to be sociable at training etc? Or do ya think with emails/texts etc as a form of communication between the athletes and coach's you lose some of face to face contact? Maybe I'm trying to counter argue here ha, but I use Facebook messager the whole time to what I think is great effect, I have both small group chats and one to one chats with loads of the athletes, this allows for very quick and casual conversion about almost anything, for me social media is purely a very useful tool to communicate, and it's up to you as a coach to use it as effectively as possible. Emails for me would be really only for the distribution of information, as it tends to be one way traffic, whereas you are much more likely to get a quick reply of some sort on Fb messager.

PVincent

What I am getting at is that younger people today prefer to make contact with people by these means , and as a result , their people skills ( I believe) are reduced . The point I am making is that good coaching is about communication, knowing your athletes, what makes them tick, what is going on in their life, etc etc ...a lot of this stuff is learnt in close quarters , and it requires a lot of skill and experience by the coach in getting the individual, or team , to open up and totally trust the coach .

I am not suggesting that any of the forms of communications are bad, I think they are great , but nothing beats speaking directly to your athletes , knowing when to put your arm around them when they need it or conversly giving them a rocket , knowing when you can push them , or make them rest , etc ...

Its why I asked the question , does he think that Coaching Badges should also include some learning on sports phycology and life skills .

Ceepo

Have to agree that its a great thread. In order to keep it going heres a few more for you.

What if anything 2 pull be your pet hates when it comes to coaching ?

Like to get your thoughts on the barefoot/ minimum cushion v's regular trainer debate.

Also Thought on the " optimum 180 spm ".

Thanks in advance

Timmaay

PVincent wrote: »

What I am getting at is that younger people today prefer to make contact with people by these means , and as a result , their people skills ( I believe) are reduced . The point I am making is that good coaching is about communication, knowing your athletes, what makes them tick, what is going on in their life, etc etc ...a lot of this stuff is learnt in close quarters , and it requires a lot of skill and experience by the coach in getting the individual, or team , to open up and totally trust the coach .

I am not suggesting that any of the forms of communications are bad, I think they are great , but nothing beats speaking directly to your athletes , knowing when to put your arm around them when they need it or conversly giving them a rocket , knowing when you can push them , or make them rest , etc ...

Its why I asked the question , does he think that Coaching Badges should also include some learning on sports phycology and life skills .

Fair point and the face to face is undoubtedly very important, however I still think social media hugely helps, training together say 3 days a week plus a race the weekend only gives say 8hrs of face to face contact, the likes of messager allows for communication all the time, I've often talked thro race tactics on Fb the night before, or only got to congratulate someone the evening of a race etc.

But very interesting 2nd question, it really is a hard one to answer, will be interesting to see what Luke says about it. My view, I have not done a level 1 yet, but it's such a broad subject that I really couldn't see them being able to cover it in a meaningful way as part of that course without adding in at least another day. However if there was a separate middle/long distance only level 1 course, which aimed to go into this whole subject in alot more detail then it would certainly in courage me to do it ha!

RayCun

The AAI coaching courses are very much based on age
Athletics Leader - games for Little Athletics, pre-competition
Assistant Coach - introduction to sprints, distance, shot, long jump, kids about 10/11
Level 1 - adds relays, javelin, discus, high jump, hurdles, walks, for training kids up to 14 or so?
Level 2 - specialise in event areas, for coaching athletes who are also starting to specialise, from mid-teens

In Assistant and Level 1 there is some stuff about the psychology of the athletes, but the assumption is that the athletes being discussed are kids. And that means coaches should not be contacting them on social media (or phoning them directly, or writing them letters!), communication should be public. So there's nothing in those courses about how to use social media best.

Level 2 might have more discussion about working with athletes coming to the end of school, dealing with exams, starting college or jobs, those kinds of life pressures...

Timmaay

Hmm yeh so is there basically no coaching course for adults?