Run Advice

trainerman

Looking for a bit of advice. Training for an IM distance next August - my 2nd. I'm just back from an ankle injury but running ok now - up to 40min runs. Running probably is my favourite discipline. I'm confident I can do the distance but want to improve my time. What sort of training would you recommend for this time of year? Last IM run was about 4hr 30. 5km PB is 20.00min. Also doing 3 bike sessions & 1-2 swims per week.
thanks

peter kern

looks like you have to think much more given that post . how do you think anybody can help you based on a 3 liner.
anyway to answer your post there is a tendency that you need to cycle much more or think more about nutrition
unless your standalone marathon conversion is equally "poor" to your 5 k to im run conversion.

tunney

Some new shoes? Maybe a new running watch? Or a coach? Thats it a coach would do it.

Seriously though - as Peter said, insufficient information.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

To run well in an IM you need to be able to bike well.

Is it fair to say from this comment "Running probably is my favourite discipline" that running is likely your strongest discipline and you are weaker at the other two? The reason i ask is people normally drift towards what they are good at and enjoy rather than focusing time on weaknesses.

trainerman

Jees thanks guys - was just asking for a bit of advice! I know I need to bike more / better & trying to work on that. I actually enjoy all 3 disciplines but maybe drift towards runs due to time constraints. Can't afford a coach - looked into that. What other info do u want? Or maybe I'm mistaken in looking for advice here?

trainerman

Jees thanks guys - was just asking for a bit of advice! I know I need to bike more / better & trying to work on that. I actually enjoy all 3 disciplines but maybe drift towards runs due to time constraints. Can't afford a coach - looked into that. What other info do u want? Or maybe I'm mistaken in looking for advice here?

peter kern

trainerman wrote: »

Jees thanks guys - was just asking for a bit of advice! I know I need to bike more / better & trying to work on that. I actually enjoy all 3 disciplines but maybe drift towards runs due to time constraints. Can't afford a coach - looked into that. What other info do u want? Or maybe I'm mistaken in looking for advice here?

No need to get offended I asked you a few indirect questions like nutrition you marathon stand alone time etc. so maybe rather than having a moan try to come up with answers like how was your nutrition your bike splits and swim how many hours do you train etc .10 k pb half marathon marathon pb weekl mileage a typical training session . Look at the thread running of tired legs that might help you . You have 298 pages of free advise .

tunney

trainerman wrote: »

Jees thanks guys - was just asking for a bit of advice! I know I need to bike more / better & trying to work on that. I actually enjoy all 3 disciplines but maybe drift towards runs due to time constraints. Can't afford a coach - looked into that. What other info do u want? Or maybe I'm mistaken in looking for advice here?

You effectively asked how long a piece of string was.
Your age?
Sex?
Job?
Athletic history?
PBs?
Years in tri?
Weight?
Height?

Firstly you are lacking a good bit of speed as a 20 minute 5km is less than impressive.

However given that we have practically zero information the only piece of advice that is application, I think based on information supplied and safe enough assumptions.

You are too heavy and need to loss about a stone in weight. Four seconds a kilo a km is the penalty for excess weight.

peter kern

I'd think a 20 min 5 k pb would warrant at least a sub 4 hour run. So the 5 k split is absolutely not the problem here

goodquote="tunney;93383867"]You effectively asked how long a piece of string was.
Your age?
Sex?
Job?
Athletic history?
PBs?
Years in tri?
Weight?
Height?

Firstly you are lacking a good bit of speed as a 20 minute 5km is less than impressive.

However given that we have practically zero information the only piece of advice that is application, I think based on information supplied and safe enough assumptions.

You are too heavy and need to loss about a stone in weight. Four seconds a kilo a km is the penalty for excess weight.[/quote]

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

I'd think a 20 min 5 k pb would warrant at least a sub 4 hour run. So the 5 k split is absolutely not the problem here

Dunno, I can do an 18:xx minute 5km and did a *little* longer than four in my IM marathon

Wasn't suggesting that it was THE problem. More that it was indicative of the problem. Undertraining.

Oryx

trainerman wrote: »

Jees thanks guys - was just asking for a bit of advice! I know I need to bike more / better & trying to work on that. I actually enjoy all 3 disciplines but maybe drift towards runs due to time constraints. Can't afford a coach - looked into that. What other info do u want? Or maybe I'm mistaken in looking for advice here?

If your bike isnt solid, your run will suffer, and an easy way to know what you should focus on, is do the sessions you hate. If you drift towards running, you probably dont hate it. Time shouldnt be an issue with the bike if you have a turbo set up at home. And hour before work easy peasy.

What are your swim times like? Do you get swim coaching?

What do you do in your 3 bike sessions?

stanleyb

I'd gladly accept 20 min 5 km.

peter kern

stanleyb wrote: »

I'd gladly accept 20 min 5 km.

So would I if I run sub 3 hours of the bike for the marathon
What I mean it's no good if you run fast for 5 k when your goal is an ironman distance race . Where the goal is not to be fast but slow down the least during the run.

zico10

Lilliana Shapely Spoonful wrote: »

To run well in an IM you need to be able to bike well.

Is it fair to say from this comment "Running probably is my favourite discipline" that running is likely your strongest discipline and you are weaker at the other two? The reason i ask is people normally drift towards what they are good at and enjoy rather than focusing time on weaknesses.

While I agree with you, I'd say to run well in an Ironman, first and foremost you need to run well. Something which is bizarrely overlooked by a lot of people.

For the OP, a 20 minute 5k should translate into a much quicker marathon time than 4.30, IM run or not. How did you approach the run training for that Ironman? What was the longest distance you covered in training?
Right now while I appreciate you might be coming back from injury and Ironman is probably not until next summer, I'd suggest your long run needs to be longer than 40 minutes. You've given us very little to go on, but my hunch is time spent running during your training cycle was your limiter last time. Then it's also true to say there's no point training your body to run well, if you haven't adequately prepared for the cycle.

trainerman wrote: »

Jees thanks guys - was just asking for a bit of advice! I know I need to bike more / better & trying to work on that. I actually enjoy all 3 disciplines but maybe drift towards runs due to time constraints. Can't afford a coach - looked into that. What other info do u want? Or maybe I'm mistaken in looking for advice here?

I think you've gotten an excellent response, but compare your original post to the one in this thread, and you might understand the initial reaction.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

zico10 wrote: »

I'd say to run well in an Ironman, first and foremost you need to run well. Something which is bizarrely overlooked by a lot of people.

Umm not always the case, a few i know who have ran 2:3x low 2:4x standalone marathons have ran over an hour slower in an IM. If you are not bike strong and have done no IM specific work beforehand then you will not run for sh1t off the bike no matter how good you are.

Slightly off topic.

zico10

Lilliana Shapely Spoonful wrote: »

Umm not always the case, a few i know who have ran 2:3x low 2:4x standalone marathons have ran over an hour slower in an IM. If you are not bike strong and have done no IM specific work beforehand then you will not run for sh1t off the bike no matter how good you are.

Slightly off topic.

I wouldn't say it's off topic at all. OP wants to know how to run well and he's been told to cycle. And I bet you know even less guys who can't 'run for sh1t' at all, at all, then run well in an Ironman.

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's off topic at all. OP wants to know how to run well and he's been told to cycle. And I bet you know even less guys who can't 'run for sh1t' at all, at all, then run well in an Ironman.

well he runs well for 5 k ;-) so his question really is how to run off the bike in an ironman . and runing an marathon and an ironman is very different stuff
same like being good in itu and being an good ironman is very different .
you are looking for differetn traits.

for instance you would beat timo bracht in a 10 k race yet he will put in 20 min into you in the run in an ironman.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

zico10 wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's off topic at all. OP wants to know how to run well and he's been told to cycle. And I bet you know even less guys who can't 'run for sh1t' at all, at all, then run well in an Ironman.

I was answering in the context of him working towards an Ironman next season (the one bit of info we can work off) hence why i said focus on the bike.

On your other point of course i know more guys that run sh1t/slower:) But some of them do not have a massive gap in standalone marathon to an IM marathon time, to the point i was making in my previous post.

As an example (assuming the moon and stars are aligned), a 2.40 marathon guy running a 3.40 IM marathon to a 3.20 marathon guy running a 3.40 IM, assuming equal effort on the bike. What is more impressive in terms of performance based on ability, or who has done more IM specific work?

EDIT to add, the run work still needs to be done and not neglected!

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's off topic at all. OP wants to know how to run well and he's been told to cycle. And I bet you know even less guys who can't 'run for sh1t' at all, at all, then run well in an Ironman.

He asked how to improve his run leg.

As some know only too well if you cannot cope with the swim, the bike and run are also affected.

zico10

I accept what you're both saying. But I think a lot of people seem to forget they have to run a marathon as part of their ironman and don't prepare accordingly. I was told a long time ago 'Ironman run training is about doing as little running as you can get away with', I've a lot of respect for the guy who told me this, but I've since come to think of it as doing as much running as you can get away.

All that needs to be qualified of course with the fact that I've only done two and I still don't think I've hit upon the right approach.

trainerman

Ok - thanks for all the replys - apologies for snapping earlier!! To answer some qs:
age 38, male, 5 yrs in tri, 5'11", 79kg now, 10k pb is 42.xx, full time job, 1hr drive each way, haven't run a stand alone marathon, all runs during training last year were at z2 pace as I was worried about doing the distance, max was 35k I think, swim split was 1.10, bike was 6hrs on the hardman course - train about 8hrs in off season up to 18 peak hrs. Train alone due to work hrs. Use HR to train with.
Currently trying to ride more - with turbo - focusing more on building more power as opposed to alot of Z2 last yr.
I know I need to ride more & am trying to rectify that. I think what I was asking was should I spend the winter improving 5-10km pace or build a stronger aerobic base.
Thanks again!

zico10

trainerman wrote: »

Ok - thanks for all the replys - apologies for snapping earlier!! To answer some qs:
age 38, male, 5 yrs in tri, 5'11", 79kg now, 10k pb is 42.xx, full time job, 1hr drive each way, haven't run a stand alone marathon, all runs during training last year were at z2 pace as I was worried about doing the distance, max was 35k I think, swim split was 1.10, bike was 6hrs on the hardman course - train about 8hrs in off season up to 18 peak hrs. Train alone due to work hrs. Use HR to train with.
Currently trying to ride more - with turbo - focusing more on building more power as opposed to alot of Z2 last yr.
I know I need to ride more & am trying to rectify that. I think what I was asking was should I spend the winter improving 5-10km pace or build a stronger aerobic base.
Thanks again!

How many training sessions do you do over the 8 hours? Also over the 18 hours?

However the 8 hours are split, it's hard to see how you could be doing any more than 3 runs. So based on that assumption the most generically applicable advice for running would be to have one session long (not necessarily slow), one medium length with some quicker sections thrown in, and the final one should be focussed on speed. I think you should be base building now, but as above that doesn't mean just going out and running nothing but slow miles. If your focus is Ironman, then I wouldn't worry about 5k or 10k times. It might be no harm to do the odd race early next year just to see how training is going. You'll probably find increased fitness from the base build leads to quicker times, but it's not something I'd obsess over. A race could replace a speed session you had planned that week. They are more motivating and if you make an honest effort, you can also work out interval paces based on them.

I don't know anything about your circumstances, but I'd try to get more than 8 hours done during the winter. You can find 18 hours in the summer when there is still the same number of hours in the day. Consider cycling to work, driving some of the way and running the rest. I very seldom do either of those two things, because I don't have to, but my point is where there's a will there's a way.

As a previous poster said I also think two swims a week is not enough.

trainerman

zico10 wrote: »

How many training sessions do you do over the 8 hours? Also over the 18 hours?

However the 8 hours are split, it's hard to see how you could be doing any more than 3 runs. So based on that assumption the most generically applicable advice for running would be to have one session long (not necessarily slow), one medium length with some quicker sections thrown in, and the final one should be focussed on speed. I think you should be base building now, but as above that doesn't mean just going out and running nothing but slow miles. If your focus is Ironman, then I wouldn't worry about 5k or 10k times. It might be no harm to do the odd race early next year just to see how training is going. You'll probably find increased fitness from the base build leads to quicker times, but it's not something I'd obsess over. A race could replace a speed session you had planned that week. They are more motivating and if you make an honest effort, you can also work out interval paces based on them.

I don't know anything about your circumstances, but I'd try to get more than 8 hours done during the winter. You can find 18 hours in the summer when there is still the same number of hours in the day. Consider cycling to work, driving some of the way and running the rest. I very seldom do either of those two things, because I don't have to, but my point is where there's a will there's a way.

As a previous poster said I also think two swims a week is not enough.

Come January when things change a bit training hrs will also increase but nowhere near 18 - hard and long enough on family as it is! All sessions were evenly divided last year with the exception of a few weeks where they were 1 sport focused. Runs at the moment are probably as u outline & I'll be more confident of keeping that up right through this year instead of all Z2 last year.
Re the swim, was happy with swim last year & am at about the same stage right now & think I need more bike focus - as everyone seems to be saying - also think theres more gains to be made there too.

tough_rudder

Quit tri! If you like running more, focus more on it. You could do a lot more in running with 8 hours of training than you could ever do in tri. With your current 5k time, you could get 50-60mpw in and the 5k time would drop quickly to below 18 minutes.

who wants to run a 4.30 marathon when they are capable of a lot faster in a standalone race. Go fast, not stupid!

Who wants a stupid sticker and tattoo! A BQ could be there for you in running if you dedicate yourself, a race with a prestigious history and pedigree. Now that is something to aspire to.

Cona, pffft!:D:D:D:D:D




































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































WTF!?!? Why did my post come out this long?

sconhome

tough_rudder wrote: »

....

Jaysus did you fall asleep on your keyboard or something???

Dory Dory

Psst....it's Kona.

peter kern

could only agree with the poster that suggested running only when you only have time to train 8 hours now i would first question my goal . id advise to go to running as one poster said or focus on oly distance
so right now you need to swim bike and run more .

in terms of periodisation with the little training you do slow is not going to help so when you train you ALWAYS need some fast stuff in the session.
that does not mean everything fast but always an fast element of the session)
and when you do 18 hours then fitness increases
so first fast over endurace and later endurace over speed

I have no idea how often you train 18 hours but going sub 12 for the hardman is not bad but fact is you are losing way to much form 5 k speed to 10 k speed from 20 to 43 is poor so when you do intevasl focus on less rest and more distance. ( and this sets you up for a poor marathon )
so as zico says more run miles in this case ( its one of the worst 5 to 10 k conversations i have seen at the 20 min 5 k level .only easy runing prepars for easy running and while you have some natural speed you tire way to quickly ....

trainerman

peter kern wrote: »

so first fast over endurace and later endurace over speed
....

This is probably the quick answer I was looking for so I gues between now and new year I'll just build a bit of run fitness and then from Jan-Jun focus on fast over endurance and once the 2md half of training kicks in focus on endurance over speed

peter kern wrote: »

its one of the worst 5 to 10 k conversations i have seen at the 20 min 5 k level .only easy runing prepars for easy running and while you have some natural speed you tire way to quickly ....

your probably right although I'll qualify this by saying I've never really focused on short distance - everything has always been longer and slower and usually in the mountaints. I'll come back to you around March time with a better 10k time!!

Thanks Peter - apreciate the reply.

peter kern

i would google monegetti fartlek should give you some ideas

trainerman

peter kern wrote: »

i would google monegetti fartlek should give you some ideas

Thanks again - was just about to ask what type of intervals you'd recommend!

sconhome

New shoes always help with running