Running with easy cycling in the legs.

demfad · 03-12-2014 1:36pm #1

A training query for anyone who may be able to help.

Im primarily a runner but I do a 12.5k return cycle commute daily.
I'm on relatively high running mileage (150k last week) and base building. My quality sessions are aerobic progression runs at the moment (Steady progressing LT).
I sometimes commute by running. On the days when I cycle twice I find it has a negative impact on my evening run especially if its a progression run (fast). I find it hard to get the legs to turnover as well as some tiredness.

Ideally I would like to be able to do some faster running on these days. I have a couple of small kids and sometimes I have limited flexibility in moving around the training.

To try and resolve this issue I've tried to minimise the impact of the cycling.

I have a decent racing road bike.

This is what Ive tried:

--Cycle as easily as possible with high reps.
--Maintain the bike well.

(ahem...The bike has cleats and embarrasingly my shoes need repair replacement so thats an obvious way that effort should be reduced. Ill sort that)

--strides before workout
--try to move sessions to days of less cycling--not always logistically feasable

The following I haven't tried but have occurred to me.

--become a stronger cyclist: maybe a harder cycle for leg strenght every other week which should reduce the overall impact once im strong enough.
--reduce the amount of easy running assuming the easy cycling is an adequate replacement for some easy running. This will increase the average speed of my running and should mitigate against turnover issues.

My questions are:

1. Anything else to put on that list or remove from it or other suggestions? What do triathletes duathletes do to aid freshness before running sessions (I understand that it is sometimes desirable to run on cycle tired legs for these events)?

2. Can easy cycling replace easy running for tehse events. i. e can i higher percentage of running be done steady or fast due to easy cycling being used for recovery for example?

Apologies if all that is more long winded than necessary!

Two questions:

demfad · 04-12-2014 1:05pm

demfad wrote: »

A training query for anyone who may be able to help.

Im primarily a runner but I do a 12.5k return cycle commute daily.
I'm on relatively high running mileage (150k last week) and base building. My quality sessions are aerobic progression runs at the moment (Steady progressing LT).
I sometimes commute by running. On the days when I cycle twice I find it has a negative impact on my evening run especially if its a progression run (fast). I find it hard to get the legs to turnover as well as some tiredness.

Ideally I would like to be able to do some faster running on these days. I have a couple of small kids and sometimes I have limited flexibility in moving around the training.

To try and resolve this issue I've tried to minimise the impact of the cycling.

I have a decent racing road bike.

This is what Ive tried:

--Cycle as easily as possible with high reps.
--Maintain the bike well.

(ahem...The bike has cleats and embarrasingly my shoes need repair replacement so thats an obvious way that effort should be reduced. Ill sort that)

--strides before workout
--try to move sessions to days of less cycling--not always logistically feasable

The following I haven't tried but have occurred to me.

--become a stronger cyclist: maybe a harder cycle for leg strenght every other week which should reduce the overall impact once im strong enough.
--reduce the amount of easy running assuming the easy cycling is an adequate replacement for some easy running. This will increase the average speed of my running and should mitigate against turnover issues.

My questions are:

1. Anything else to put on that list or remove from it or other suggestions? What do triathletes duathletes do to aid freshness before running sessions (I understand that it is sometimes desirable to run on cycle tired legs for these events)?

2. Can easy cycling replace easy running for tehse events. i. e can i higher percentage of running be done steady or fast due to easy cycling being used for recovery for example?

Apologies if all that is more long winded than necessary!

Ill just bump this once in case anyone might have missed it who can advise.

Running before cycling in the day when possible is something I try but most days logistics dont allow.

peter kern · 05-12-2014 11:36am

demfad wrote: »

Ill just bump this once in case anyone might have missed it who can advise.

Running before cycling in the day when possible is something I try but most days logistics dont allow.

what is the distance you train for in running
what times do you do
how many years in the sport

the obvious one you run before you cycle home .

demfad · 05-12-2014 3:41pm

peter kern wrote: »

what is the distance you train for in running
what times do you do
how many years in the sport

the obvious one you run before you cycle home .

5k to marathon.
run 10-13 times per week.
Long term plan is sub 2:30 in a (flat) autumn marathon. PB is mid 2:30s
running since 2002
Current phase is base building
This involves 2+ as you feel tempo runs per week with 35mins (and eventually up to 60 mins) at high end aerobic pace.
A day where I cycle twice is impacting on this session.
There will be some days where ill have to attempt to run fast on a double cycle day.

(After the base building Ill train to get around 32 for a 10k which is enough on paper for me to bring my marathon time to under 2:30.)

My issue is just how to minimize the impact of these cycles. They are not that tiring. They just take the speed out of my legs so the evening session is 10-15s per k slower than where it should be.

Also Im cycling easy about 80-125k a week with these commutes. If I could correctly use these as recovery efforts I would which would help with the running.

Recovery runs can be as slow as 6 min per k and this pace cant be run with good mechanics easily. Replacing such a run with an easy cycle would be a 6 pointer.

It occurred to me that the men and women here would have an insight into this, and may use cycling as recovery. Just not experienced on the cycling side so called here to save a pile of research (that I have little time for)

Thanks a million for getting back.

tunney · 05-12-2014 3:42pm

Is your bike set up correctly?

It may not be the exercise but the setup that is causing the problem

demfad · 05-12-2014 3:52pm

tunney wrote: »

Is your bike set up correctly?

It may not be the exercise but the setup that is causing the problem

That was astute. I have had issues with sciatica for 6 months last year which had raised the issue of bike positioning.
I used to cycle an entry level racer and it always felt faster than my current bike which is a considerably better bike supposedly. Maybe im losing efficiency somewhere.

I guess I could get my current bike checked. (I am very comfortable when I cycle a more upright bike.)

Just to answer the last poster: I have 2 small kids so have to get home one way or the other in time. Some of these days I can run home but some of tehse days I have to cycle, and unfortunately those days I sometimes have to get the faster run done, usually 8pm after we put the kids to bed.
Basically, I am avoiding the double cycle and session scenario as often as I can. But I cant always avoid it.

tunney · 05-12-2014 4:05pm

demfad wrote: »

That was astute. I have had issues with sciatica for 6 months last year which had raised the issue of bike positioning.
I used to cycle an entry level racer and it always felt faster than my current bike which is a considerably better bike supposedly. Maybe im losing efficiency somewhere.

I guess I could get my current bike checked. (I am very comfortable when I cycle a more upright bike.)

Just to answer the last poster: I have 2 small kids so have to get home one way or the other in time. Some of these days I can run home but some of tehse days I have to cycle, and unfortunately those days I sometimes have to get the faster run done, usually 8pm after we put the kids to bed.
Basically, I am avoiding the double cycle and session scenario as often as I can. But I cant always avoid it.

You should, my gut would be once you addressed saddle height then you would find things alot better.

Did you say which muscles or aspects of movement you felt restricted your performance/movement? If not. Could you please?

MojoMaker · 05-12-2014 4:05pm

Could you re-jig to move the easy run into the double cycle day?

How hard are these cycles / could they be easier?

If the fit is an issue there are specific stretches to alleviate the symptoms of sciatic nerve compression I'm sure you are aware of by now

earlier in the year I suffered from this a bit and started a 10min daily stretching program which has completely cleared up the sciatica, even without a perfect bike fit.

What is giving you trouble specifically? For me the sciatica was affecting my calf muscles and inhibiting my runs.

peter kern · 05-12-2014 4:07pm

ok i would have said if you are targeting bellow 10 k and bellow than you have to and issue with the cycling
for the marathon i see it firstly v positve if you run on tired legs .
so if the marathon is the goal than i would not worry too much
i gues you could do 1 fast session sat morning when you dont have to cycle .
and then just be ok that the others session is actualy at least a valuable as you run on tired legs and good for fatique resitance which is important for the 2nd part in the marathon

what pace are your fast run when you do not have to run of the bike ?
also why not change the tempo runs into segemts so you can hold a closer dessired pace and then have lets say 90 easy jog in between

to be fair 15 sec is quite a high loss from that little distance and as tunny said it could you are set up wrongly.

unless you plan duathlons i would not really try to get a faster cyclist btw.

demfad wrote: »

5k to marathon.
run 10-13 times per week.
Long term plan is sub 2:30 in a (flat) autumn marathon. PB is mid 2:30s
running since 2002
Current phase is base building
This involves 2+ as you feel tempo runs per week with 35mins (and eventually up to 60 mins) at high end aerobic pace.
A day where I cycle twice is impacting on this session.
There will be some days where ill have to attempt to run fast on a double cycle day.

(After the base building Ill train to get around 32 for a 10k which is enough on paper for me to bring my marathon time to under 2:30.)

My issue is just how to minimize the impact of these cycles. They are not that tiring. They just take the speed out of my legs so the evening session is 10-15s per k slower than where it should be.

Also Im cycling easy about 80-125k a week with these commutes. If I could correctly use these as recovery efforts I would which would help with the running.

Recovery runs can be as slow as 6 min per k and this pace cant be run with good mechanics easily. Replacing such a run with an easy cycle would be a 6 pointer.

It occurred to me that the men and women here would have an insight into this, and may use cycling as recovery. Just not experienced on the cycling side so called here to save a pile of research (that I have little time for)

Thanks a million for getting back.

peter kern · 05-12-2014 4:10pm

look to me the hadle bar neds to get up
besides what tunney said

demfad wrote: »

That was astute. I have had issues with sciatica for 6 months last year which had raised the issue of bike positioning.
I used to cycle an entry level racer and it always felt faster than my current bike which is a considerably better bike supposedly. Maybe im losing efficiency somewhere.

I guess I could get my current bike checked. (I am very comfortable when I cycle a more upright bike.)

Just to answer the last poster: I have 2 small kids so have to get home one way or the other in time. Some of these days I can run home but some of tehse days I have to cycle, and unfortunately those days I sometimes have to get the faster run done, usually 8pm after we put the kids to bed.
Basically, I am avoiding the double cycle and session scenario as often as I can. But I cant always avoid it.

speedyj · 05-12-2014 5:12pm

Could it be that you're not eating enough and/or food timing?

demfad · 05-12-2014 5:50pm

peter kern wrote: »

ok i would have said if you are targeting bellow 10 k and bellow than you have to and issue with the cycling
for the marathon i see it firstly v positve if you run on tired legs .
so if the marathon is the goal than i would not worry too much
i gues you could do 1 fast session sat morning when you dont have to cycle .
and then just be ok that the others session is actualy at least a valuable as you run on tired legs and good for fatique resitance which is important for the 2nd part in the marathon

what pace are your fast run when you do not have to run of the bike ?
also why not change the tempo runs into segemts so you can hold a closer dessired pace and then have lets say 90 easy jog in between

to be fair 15 sec is quite a high loss from that little distance and as tunny said it could you are set up wrongly.

unless you plan duathlons i would not really try to get a faster cyclist btw.

Sorry just to clarify. Im running a marathon in October.

To achieve my goal I need to be able to run a 10k in 32.00

So my periodisation is

base training : now
10k sepcific training: summer
marathon training autumn.

The running on tired legs is useful but ill cover that in specific training close to the marathon time.
I run on tired legs with the high mileage anyway. The problem with the base period Im in now is to keep the legturnover. You need to keep an efficient gait going especially in the faster sessions. The cycling is killing that.

If I come out of thsis period very strong but too slow, i wont be able to get down to 32 or under for the 10k and the pace I can susain for the marathon will be too slow no matter.

I think proper running base training needs to get the big mileage in but also needs to be run at an efficient cadence.

After saying all that I basically need to take out of my legs whatever leg turnover slowness the cycling puts in.

Strides before the faster running arent quite cutting it, maybe a fast feet drill might be an experiemnt worth trying.

demfad · 05-12-2014 5:52pm

speedyj wrote: »

Could it be that you're not eating enough and/or food timing?

Hiya

Thks for getting back. Food and nutrition could be better, but it isnt the factor here im pretty sure. Its sluggishness in the legs, a lack of ability to turn them over comfortable during an evening session when i cycle to and from work earlier that day.

demfad · 05-12-2014 6:00pm

tunney wrote: »

You should, my gut would be once you addressed saddle height then you would find things alot better.

Did you say which muscles or aspects of movement you felt restricted your performance/movement? If not. Could you please?

Leg turnover...viscosity, I guess...im thinking a few fast feet drills before the strides I do...

Saddle height too low would lose me power? Or too far a reach to the handles would necessitate a lower saddle losing power?

demfad · 05-12-2014 6:05pm

tunney wrote: »

You should, my gut would be once you addressed saddle height then you would find things alot better.

Did you say which muscles or aspects of movement you felt restricted your performance/movement? If not. Could you please?

Leg turnover...viscosity, I guess...im thinking a few fast feet drills before the strides I do...

Saddle height too low would lose me power? Or too far a reach to the handles would necessitate a lower saddle losing power?

BTH · 05-12-2014 6:07pm

Legs not able to hold a high cadence run after a cycle?? That seems to be what you are saying?

I'd suggest cycling at a higher cadence. But I'm not as qualified as others in this thread.

peter kern · 05-12-2014 10:51pm

i see where you are comming from and i agree with what you say with leg turmover and milage anyway your question was more about the bike so no real point to get into but still it is a common fallacy to think one has to run 32 to break 2.30 .33 .15 and your cycling can be enough ( of course i have no idea aobut your current 5 10 21 and marathon conversions ,all i say is that the more you cycle the slower your 10 k could be to still be in 2.30 form compared to a person that only runs the milege you do
it really depends on somebodies milage ( and cycling will increase your cardivascular fitness by reducing risk of injury ) as much as somebodies 10 k speed.
as i said once you have solved bike issue and it does not give you the dessired effect shorten your inteval lenght run faster for shorter times and focus on that turnover ( very slight downhill intervals) and you will still get faster legturnover access to a treadmil would be brill to if that would work with your time restraints )
or doing 800 FAST approx 2.45 200 easy 10-13 times times or 6-9 x600 in 155is off 2.20 400 in 1.15 off 1.40 400 in 1.15 nin and 40seconds to 60 seconds easy jog and of course running drills and plyometric do help.
so anyway the reason you posted here i guess was to hear aobut the cycling so
have a look at your bike set up as it does not sound right and 12,5 k should not impact on your cycling.
and 2ndly be rest assured that the cycling will have a positive impact on your marathon running ( or you could do a bit less easy runing and do not give up fitness copamred to a slighly higher milage running runner)
good luck !!!! and let us know how you got on next october .
if you are ever around sandmount I would be happy to have a quick look at your set up if you bribe me with some choclate .
btw you are not the guy I talked to a few month ago cycling from castelknock to balsbridgge? distance works out pretty much 12.5 k and it was a 2.33 marathon runner i talked to ?
Ps garry crossman ( speeling ? ) and dave corcran would be also a good people to talk to as the have an good understanding when runner goes cycling.

ps the bike cadance should not really have an impact since i udnerstand you dont run straight of the bike as you first deal with your kids before you run .
if you run straight of the bike than yes its something you could try. ( but i think you did say you already cycle high cadence .

and sorry as iam really intersted is its more the ground contact time thats get longer or do you feel more your hipp flexor are tired and slow down the leg forward motion ?
as it would be intersting to see what running drill could help best to adresse the issue .

demfad wrote: »

Sorry just to clarify. Im running a marathon in October.

To achieve my goal I need to be able to run a 10k in 32.00

So my periodisation is

base training : now
10k sepcific training: summer
marathon training autumn.

The running on tired legs is useful but ill cover that in specific training close to the marathon time.
I run on tired legs with the high mileage anyway. The problem with the base period Im in now is to keep the legturnover. You need to keep an efficient gait going especially in the faster sessions. The cycling is killing that.

If I come out of thsis period very strong but too slow, i wont be able to get down to 32 or under for the 10k and the pace I can susain for the marathon will be too slow no matter.

I think proper running base training needs to get the big mileage in but also needs to be run at an efficient cadence.

After saying all that I basically need to take out of my legs whatever leg turnover slowness the cycling puts in.

Strides before the faster running arent quite cutting it, maybe a fast feet drill might be an experiemnt worth trying.

demfad · 09-12-2014 3:42pm

MojoMaker wrote: »

Could you re-jig to move the easy run into the double cycle day?

How hard are these cycles / could they be easier?

If the fit is an issue there are specific stretches to alleviate the symptoms of sciatic nerve compression I'm sure you are aware of by now earlier in the year I suffered from this a bit and started a 10min daily stretching program which has completely cleared up the sciatica, even without a perfect bike fit.

What is giving you trouble specifically? For me the sciatica was affecting my calf muscles and inhibiting my runs.

Hi, the scatica I sufferred was affecting my butt and hamstring. Bikram Yoga and/or anti-inflams were the winning combination in the end. If youve a link for teh stretching routine Id appreciate it to keep the sciatic wolf from the door.

demfad · 09-12-2014 3:54pm

peter kern wrote: »

i see where you are comming from and i agree with what you say with leg turmover and milage anyway your question was more about the bike so no real point to get into but still it is a common fallacy to think one has to run 32 to break 2.30 .33 .15 and your cycling can be enough ( of course i have no idea aobut your current 5 10 21 and marathon conversions ,all i say is that the more you cycle the slower your 10 k could be to still be in 2.30 form compared to a person that only runs the milege you do
it really depends on somebodies milage ( and cycling will increase your cardivascular fitness by reducing risk of injury ) as much as somebodies 10 k speed.
as i said once you have solved bike issue and it does not give you the dessired effect shorten your inteval lenght run faster for shorter times and focus on that turnover ( very slight downhill intervals) and you will still get faster legturnover access to a treadmil would be brill to if that would work with your time restraints )
or doing 800 FAST approx 2.45 200 easy 10-13 times times or 6-9 x600 in 155is off 2.20 400 in 1.15 off 1.40 400 in 1.15 nin and 40seconds to 60 seconds easy jog and of course running drills and plyometric do help.
so anyway the reason you posted here i guess was to hear aobut the cycling so
have a look at your bike set up as it does not sound right and 12,5 k should not impact on your cycling.
and 2ndly be rest assured that the cycling will have a positive impact on your marathon running ( or you could do a bit less easy runing and do not give up fitness copamred to a slighly higher milage running runner)
good luck !!!! and let us know how you got on next october .
if you are ever around sandmount I would be happy to have a quick look at your set up if you bribe me with some choclate .
btw you are not the guy I talked to a few month ago cycling from castelknock to balsbridgge? distance works out pretty much 12.5 k and it was a 2.33 marathon runner i talked to ?
Ps garry crossman ( speeling ? ) and dave corcran would be also a good people to talk to as the have an good understanding when runner goes cycling.

ps the bike cadance should not really have an impact since i udnerstand you dont run straight of the bike as you first deal with your kids before you run .
if you run straight of the bike than yes its something you could try. ( but i think you did say you already cycle high cadence .

and sorry as iam really intersted is its more the ground contact time thats get longer or do you feel more your hipp flexor are tired and slow down the leg forward motion ?
as it would be intersting to see what running drill could help best to adresse the issue .

Thnaks for the comprehensive reply.

Im not the Clontarf guy but may take you up on the check up offer, will bring the choclate.

The sessions you prescribe look good. Thetyre more or less LT sessions in effect but getting some speed in. Im 2-3 months away from those though but Ill keep them in mind.

The types of speed maintenance I use are:

3 x (6 x 35s) 5k -> 1 mile pace

Short strides or buildups of 10-15s x 6-10

I think the issue is with muscle tension. The cycling takes the pop out of the legs completely. I had a double cycling day yesterday. At lunch I did 8k inc 10 x 100m uphill (3-4% grade @ 3k race pace). I did a few fast feet drills before it and one or 2 easy buildups.

My idea was to stick a drill/stride session between the cycles. Im OK after one cycle not 2 so if i could nullify the effects of the first one it might help.

IT worked pretty well, the uphill meant that a little more muscle was being recruited so more nerves getting fired up.
Only did an easy run but felt pretty limber.

Im doing my base training off suggestions by John Kellogg (google: training wisdom of john kellogg pdf).

The base phase and LT phase is in there.

He also has suggestions for when the legs feel chronically dead:

2 x 10 travelling lunges: first 10 shallow, second 10 deep.
1-2 x 30 fast high knees. Start into the run without much rest after these or do them mid run.

Thanks again for all the advice. Ill take them all on board and report back later in the base phase.

peter kern · 09-12-2014 10:13pm

will have a look at the plan later ( looks like good stuff ) but you really need to get your bike positon looked at .

peter kern · 09-12-2014 11:22pm

THANKS FOR SHARING THAT PDF THERE IS SOME AWESOME STUFF IN IT ( WILL DEFO READ THIS OVER X MAS )
SOME PEOPLE MIGHT WANT TO READ PAGE 58 ....

demfad · 10-12-2014 1:40pm

peter kern wrote: »

THANKS FOR SHARING THAT PDF THERE IS SOME AWESOME STUFF IN IT ( WILL DEFO READ THIS OVER X MAS )
SOME PEOPLE MIGHT WANT TO READ PAGE 58 ....

Yes, theres a lot of good stuff in there. He coached at an elite level but I think a lot of his thinking is useful for all.

Just found this as another suggestion for keeping some pep in the legs: "It's also advisable, rather than using nothing above the AnT for weeks or months, to touch on some quickspeeds a couple of times per week or to perform some relaxed, low-level plyometric-type drills such as bleacher step-ups, rapid steps (over 200 steps per minute for a few seconds) and skips or bounding. These short strides and drills need not be intense or comprise an extensive portion of a workout. Just a few minutes of them after 15-20 minutes of jogging before continuing with the run (or at the conclusion of a run) twice a week will do.
"

The schedules I'm loosely basing my base phase on are at pages 140-143

More sample schedules: 221-225

I generally do a search through the PDF for stuff like "base" "strides" "tri" etc.

peter kern · 10-12-2014 4:27pm

i would agree with that snippet.
anyway your problem is that you should really feel no effects from commuting in fact it should be active recovery for you and enhance your running not having a negative impact .

demfad wrote: »

Yes, theres a lot of good stuff in there. He coached at an elite level but I think a lot of his thinking is useful for all.

Just found this as another suggestion for keeping some pep in the legs: "It's also advisable, rather than using nothing above the AnT for weeks or months, to touch on some quickspeeds a couple of times per week or to perform some relaxed, low-level plyometric-type drills such as bleacher step-ups, rapid steps (over 200 steps per minute for a few seconds) and skips or bounding. These short strides and drills need not be intense or comprise an extensive portion of a workout. Just a few minutes of them after 15-20 minutes of jogging before continuing with the run (or at the conclusion of a run) twice a week will do.

"

The schedules I'm loosely basing my base phase on are at pages 140-143

More sample schedules: 221-225

I generally do a search through the PDF for stuff like "base" "strides" "tri" etc.

Running with easy cycling in the legs.

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