The battle between baby buggies and wheelchairs for the downstairs bay

coylemj

I know this has been discussed here in the past - the issue of a wheelchair user attempting to board a bus and a mother with a buggy in the downstairs bay refuses to make way so the would-be wheelchair passenger is refused boarding. It has shades of the never ending battle of words that erupt every so often on boards between motorists and cyclists.

There was a case in the UK which was decided today in the Court of Appeal. The bus operator (First Group, they run the Aircoach service here) was originally fined for discrimination (under the UK Equality Act 2010) when a wheelchair user was denied boarding after a woman with a buggy refused to give way because her baby was sleeping. The bus operator appealed and today won the case.

The bus company policy was to ask the existing passenger to vacate the space but if they refused, the wheelchair user was told to wait for the next bus. The judges said that it was a matter for parliament.

Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-30376446

the groutch

the new SG class buses have the wheelchair space, and a spot beside the stairwell with 2 folding seats where a buggy could fit.

however this feels like more of a cop-out by DB rather than addressing the issue head-on.

and we will still have this problem on other classes of bus, as well as the issue of drivers letting two buggies on, and have them spend ages trying to squeeze into an inadequate space.

Icepick

Court decision is obvious.
It's unfortunate for whoever wants to get in second but currently unavoidable on old impractical buses.

CVH24

I 100% believe the wheelchair user has first priority to the space but the problem also exists that many buggies are getting bigger and as such harder and more awkward to fold and lift, it is a difficult one but I think the DB solution may be the answer, one for each and only one for each.

As regards the legal issues here, the bye-laws should take care of it, if a person is asked to do something they are required to do it unless it is illegal and as such by boarding the bus you are agreeing to the bye laws.

When you think back before 2000 there was no spaces for either.

AlekSmart

the groutch wrote: »

The new SG class buses have the wheelchair space, and a spot beside the stairwell with 2 folding seats where a buggy could fit.

However,this feels like more of a cop-out by DB rather than addressing the issue head-on.

And,we will still have this problem on other classes of bus, as well as the issue of drivers letting two buggies on, and have them spend ages trying to squeeze into an inadequate space.

The SG and later model GT class vehicles have the additional buggy-space added as a consequence of NTA policy in this regard,rather than reflecting BAC's policy.

The MAJOR issue with this additional Buggy-Specific space is the presence of the two Flip-Down seats,which serve to remder access to the Buggy Space significantly more difficult,so much so,that most Buggy pushing persons will simply occupy the Wheelchair Space instead.

TfL in London are already well into a rolling programme of removing ALL flip-down seating across their entire Road and Rail fleet due to the role they have played in passenger accidents,in addition to creating obstructions to movement in the locations where they exist.

I find it ironic,that just as London recognises the commonsense approach,the Irish NTA suddenly discover the Flip-Down seat.

Today's UK High Court Judgement underlines the current policy in Ireland which is exactly the same.

The Busdriver must be heard to request,however if that request is declined,then no further action can legally be taken and the Wheelchair user must wait for another bus.

The secondary issue of Carriage of Buggys is equally clear "Only One Occupied Buggy may be carried-All others MUST Fold":eek:

Victor

Icepick wrote: »

Court decision is obvious.
It's unfortunate for whoever wants to get in second but currently unavoidable on old impractical buses.

It's simple - remove a seat or two. It might encourage people to stand further down the back as well.

CVH24

"The Busdriver must be heard to request,however if that request is declined,then no further action can legally be taken and the Wheelchair user must wait for another bus."

The bye laws require passengers to obey any lawful instruction to be complied with, if not they can be asked to leave the service as the bus company can terminate there contract as the other party did not for full the terms and conditions of travel. Years ago I bought the timetable and abit bored read the bye laws and conditions of travel, They sadly never faded!

I totally agree about flip down seats, they should not be making a comeback here!

Dravokivich

CVH24 wrote: »

"The Busdriver must be heard to request,however if that request is declined,then no further action can legally be taken and the Wheelchair user must wait for another bus."

The bye laws require passengers to obey any lawful instruction to be complied with, if not they can be asked to leave the service as the bus company can terminate there contract as the other party did not for full the terms and conditions of travel. Years ago I bought the timetable and abit bored read the bye laws and conditions of travel, They sadly never faded!

I totally agree about flip down seats, they should not be making a comeback here!

The request is just a request. The issue however in my experience that the request is not regularly made.

AlekSmart

CVH24 wrote: »

"The Busdriver must be heard to request,however if that request is declined,then no further action can legally be taken and the Wheelchair user must wait for another bus."

The bye laws require passengers to obey any lawful instruction to be complied with, if not they can be asked to leave the service as the bus company can terminate there contract as the other party did not for full the terms and conditions of travel. Years ago I bought the timetable and a bit bored read the bye laws and conditions of travel, They sadly never faded!

I totally agree about flip down seats, they should not be making a comeback here!

The BAC situation,and I suspect the First Bus UK case will hinge on wording such as this,from the Dublin Bus Bye Laws 1996.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Passenger-Behaviour/

39.

Each passenger shall comply with any lawful direction given him by an authorised person, including a request to leave or not to board the vehicle.

As it currently stands,an instruction to fold a buggy or a direction to leave the bus in order to prioritize the Disabled Passenger would NOT be lawful ones.

It is TOTALLY a matter for the Legislature,as the High Court reference to Wheelchair Users seeking Parliamentary assistance proves,and as the First Bus case shows,it is not specific to Ireland.

What the present,totally avoidable,mess shows is how a seemingly beneficial piece of legislation can become a farce for the want of a few well chosen words such as "MUST" rather than "Should".

AlekSmart

Dravokivich wrote: »

The request is just a request. The issue however in my experience that the request is not regularly made.

I would strongly disagree with this statement.

In addition to the Busdriver verbally requesting a buggy fold & stow to facilitate a Wheelchair user,there is now a facility for an automated announcement to be made,although it's effectivity has yet to be determined.

Dravokivich

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would strongly disagree with this statement.

In addition to the Busdriver verbally requesting a buggy fold & stow to facilitate a Wheelchair user,there is now a facility for an automated announcement to be made,although it's effectivity has yet to be determined.

I stated in my experience, becuase ive only seen the situation occur a handful of times.

AlekSmart

Dravokivich wrote: »

I stated in my experience, becuase ive only seen the situation occur a handful of times.

Understood,I'm stating from my own daily experience,and from BAC policy,which I feel is adhered to by the vast majority of drivers,some of whom have disabled family members themselves.

As todays UK judgement shows,there HAS to be unequivocal and Legally Enforceable policy put in place regarding Disabled Access...it is no longer sufficient to rely on voluntary compliance as in an increasing number of cases it will NOT be forthcoming

CVH24

Well from the above quote from BAC bye-laws "shall" does not allow a lot of room for request!

My personal take is the wheelchair passenger can only board the bus in the wheelchair, so it would be very unfair for a buggy to take any priority over the wheelchair. The buggy should be capable of folding. So if its folded all people can be transported, as it should be. A minute or two inconvenience of folding and unfolding should not take a priority over peoples need. Its is a question of what society wants for its self, one where everyones needs are take into consideration or one of pushing to get whats best for ones self!

I do see buggys are getting bigger and more arkward and a second bay for this purpose is to be expected but not where other passengers are refused to facilitate space for an unfolded buggy.

Just thinking was that case one where the bus was already too full with passengers not buggy's, just simply too full to accommodate a wheelchair. In that case well there is now way passengers can be asked to leave to accommodate the wheelchair.

AlekSmart

CVH24 wrote: »

Well from the above quote from BAC bye-laws "shall" does not allow a lot of room for request!

My personal take is the wheelchair passenger can only board the bus in the wheelchair, so it would be very unfair for a buggy to take any priority over the wheelchair. The buggy should be capable of folding. So if its folded all people can be transported, as it should be. A minute or two inconvenience of folding and unfolding should not take a priority over peoples need. Its is a question of what society wants for its self, one where everyones needs are take into consideration or one of pushing to get whats best for ones self!

I do see buggys are getting bigger and more arkward and a second bay for this purpose is to be expected but not where other passengers are refused to facilitate space for an unfolded buggy.

Just thinking was that case one where the bus was already too full with passengers not buggy's, just simply too full to accommodate a wheelchair. In that case well there is now way passengers can be asked to leave to accommodate the wheelchair.

The relevance of the "Lawful Direction" cannot be underestimated,as it's not just an esoteric concept as it has been adjudicated upon already....As it currently stands,I as a Busdriver have no LEGAL right to compel a non-disabled person to vacate a disabled-specific space.

The compulsion,where it exists,is for the operator to have the disabled facility,the suitably trained staff and the means of access to that facility.

That's where it presently lies,with todays UK Judgement substantially reinforcing the current Irish position.

CVH24

Alex your take on "lawful direction" is very different to mine. As long as the person is not asked to break the law in what they are asked to do they shall do it.
Asked to move seats - lawful
punch someone - unlawful
fold buggy - lawful
As long as they are asked to do something which does not break the law it is lawful. That is the T&C's they freely and lawfully excepted. The Bus is private property and as such the operators demain.

cdebru

AlekSmart wrote: »

Understood,I'm stating from my own daily experience,and from BAC policy,which I feel is adhered to by the vast majority of drivers,some of whom have disabled family members themselves.

As todays UK judgement shows,there HAS to be unequivocal and Legally Enforceable policy put in place regarding Disabled Access...it is no longer sufficient to rely on voluntary compliance as in an increasing number of cases it will NOT be forthcoming

Agreed a driver would be taking a huge risk not asking the question,why would a driver take that on themselves in the event of a subsequent complaint, I have never heard of a driver not asking but have heard lots of refusals to the question.

monument

CVH24 wrote: »

The bye laws require passengers to obey any lawful instruction to be complied with, if not they can be asked to leave the service as the bus company can terminate there contract as the other party did not for full the terms and conditions of travel. Years ago I bought the timetable and abit bored read the bye laws and conditions of travel, They sadly never faded!

Your version of a "lawful instruction" and the legal view of the same are likely not the same things.

Drivers going beyond company policy is not within their rights.

CVH24 wrote: »

Alex your take on "lawful direction" is very different to mine. As long as the person is not asked to break the law in what they are asked to do they shall do it.
Asked to move seats - lawful
punch someone - unlawful
fold buggy - lawful
As long as they are asked to do something which does not break the law it is lawful. That is the T&C's they freely and lawfully excepted. The Bus is private property and as such the operators demain.

That's very simplistic view of what is lawful or not. Terms and conditions can't invalidate people's rights and reasonsble expectations.

And view such as "Bus is private property and as such the operators demain" are very old-school and have no bases in reality of consumer and access law.

CVH24

monument wrote: »

Your version of a "lawful instruction" and the legal view of the same are likely not the same things.

Drivers going beyond company policy is not within rights.




That's very simplistic view of what is lawful or not. Terms and conditions can't invalidate people's rights and reasonsble expectations.

And view such as "Bus is private property and as such the operators demain" are very old-school and have no bases in reality of consumer and access law.

Please back up your legal Advice, you have simply expressed your view, and it just disagrees with mine. My view was expressed in the context that nobody should Left disadvantaged where it is possible to accommodate everyone, it is public transport after all. Your view of allowing people do what they want because they can is just wrong. A civilised society is measured by how it treats it's weak and vulnerable.
As regards the UK ruling it is one to watch but our system would still be different.

What is Db policy but it's bye-laws? If a driver enforces the bye laws, he/ she is exceeding their position in your view?

Also all the recent buses were sourced on the basis they were wheelchair accessible, not buggy accessible.

What consumer and access laws, when does reasonable expectation become a legal right?

seventeen sheep

CVH24 wrote: »

Well from the above quote from BAC bye-laws "shall" does not allow a lot of room for request!

My personal take is the wheelchair passenger can only board the bus in the wheelchair, so it would be very unfair for a buggy to take any priority over the wheelchair. The buggy should be capable of folding. So if its folded all people can be transported, as it should be. A minute or two inconvenience of folding and unfolding should not take a priority over peoples need. Its is a question of what society wants for its self, one where everyones needs are take into consideration or one of pushing to get whats best for ones self!

I do see buggys are getting bigger and more arkward and a second bay for this purpose is to be expected but not where other passengers are refused to facilitate space for an unfolded buggy.

Just thinking was that case one where the bus was already too full with passengers not buggy's, just simply too full to accommodate a wheelchair. In that case well there is now way passengers can be asked to leave to accommodate the wheelchair.

I do think though that people need to consider that it's usually not that simple ... very few buggies can be folded with one hand, so if you're reliant on public transport, you basically can't count on being able to use the bus until the child is able to stand on their own (so maybe a year old, maybe sooner or maybe later), it's a pain in the ass if you have an appointment to get to.

There are baby slings/carriers, which are great for some people, but don't suit all parents/babies.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that wheelchair users should get priority for the space, and I'd never even consider trying to deny it to them. But with a child that's not standing alone, it's not the inconvenience of folding the buggy, it's the inconvenience of having to get off the bus and wait for the next one - or the one after that, if the space is occupied on the next one - or the one after that. Possibly in an unfamiliar area (depending on the bus route), and probably the child's feeding schedule will be thrown way out as a result.

It's the height of ignorance, however, when a parent tries to deny the wheelchair user the space on the bus. If I really needed to get somewhere by a certain time, I'd get a bus that would get me there a couple of hours earlier, as I know not to depend on getting a buggy space - my baby's not standing yet, and you need two hands to fold his buggy, so we have no other option. I'd also have his carseat with me and money for a taxi just in case all of the buggy/wheelchair spaces on all of the buses were occupied.

Essentially I agree with you, but I don't think that folding a buggy is as minor an inconvenience as you seem to think - not when you have a small baby, anyways!

CVH24

theiteen sheep wrote: »

I do think tho people need to consider that it's usually not that simple ... very few buggies can be folded with one hand, so if you're reliant on public transport, you basically can't count on being able to use the bus until the child is able to stand on their own (so maybe a year old, maybe sooner or maybe later), it's a pain in the ass if you have an appointment to get to.

There are baby slings/carriers, which are great for some people, but don't suit all parents/babies.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that wheelchair users should get priority for the space, and I'd never even consider trying to deny it to them. But with a child that's not standing alone, it's not the inconvenience of folding the buggy, it's the inconvenience of having to get off the bus and wait for the next one - or the one after that, if the space is occupied on the next one - or the one after that. Possibly in an unfamiliar area (depending on the bus route), and probably the child's feeding schedule will be thrown way out as a result.

It's the height of ignorance, however, when a parent tries to deny the wheelchair user the space on the bus. If I really needed to get somewhere by a certain time, I'd get a bus that would get me there a couple of hours earlier, as I know not to depend on getting a buggy space - my baby's not standing yet, and you need two hands to fold his buggy, so we have no other option. I'd also have his carseat with me and money for a taxi just in case all of the buggy/wheelchair spaces on all of the buses were occupied.

Essentially I agree with you, but I don't think that folding a buggy is as minor an inconvenience as you seem to think - not when you have a small baby, anyways!

Well I agree with you, and had you been on the bus that day we all would not be having this debate, but debate is a good thing. But why is folding the buggy so hard, it has been engineered that way. Surely there must be some that are easy to fold, and if I needed to use public transport or indeed a taxi, I would bear that in mind when buying the buggy.
Buggys are not something I know alot about but are there some that are easy to fold, if not why not? With all the engineering we have in the world you would think this has been solved and would be a great USP!

Just want to put out an idea, the passenger in the buggy has not paid and is being carried free as a voluntary jesture.

pwurple

The buggies that are easy to fold tend to be suitable for older children, or toddlers who can stand up or sit up. There is no difficulty there.

Newborns are another story. The buggy needs to recline completely flat for small infants (they are a replacement for the old style prams). It is very difficult to fold that kind of buggy while holding a newborn and a nappybag. Let alone in a confined space (on a bus)... which may also be moving. Add the postpartum stitches/pain/csection recovery as well. It's just not possible some of the time.

I travel on buses with a baby fairly frequently, and I'm lucky that usually the bus serving my route has 4+ folding seats, so can take a wheelchair and sometimes two buggies. This is an excellent design.

seventeen sheep

CVH24 wrote: »

Well I agree with you, and had you been on the bus that day we all would not be having this debate, but debate is a good thing. But why is folding the buggy so hard, it has been engineered that way. Surely there must be some that are easy to fold, and if I needed to use public transport or indeed a taxi, I would bear that in mind when buying the buggy.
Buggys are not something I know alot about but are there some that are easy to fold, if not why not? With all the engineering we have in the world you would think this has been solved and would be a great USP!

Just want to put out an idea, the passenger in the buggy has not paid and is being carried free as a voluntary jesture.

I'm sure there are some that are easier to fold, but I think most of the one-hand-fold ones are what are known as "umbrella strollers", basically very flimsy lightweight little things. We bought our buggy when I was pregnant, and we wanted something extremely strong and sturdy and safe (in case we were ever involved in an accident when out walking; it does happen.) We also wanted something with plenty of storage space, and there are other features which made us choose our particular buggy, which is one of the top of the range ones - but which does require two hands to fold it.

We don't have a car, but rarely have to use buses - rarely enough that a one-hold-fold wasn't one of our requirements when looking for the right buggy. If we had to use it on a daily basis, we'd have absolutely compromised and gone for one of the light flimsy little ones - however it's not worth our while for the occasional time we use it, but, it's still a pain in the ass the odd time we have no other option but to get the bus.

Aren't wheelchair passengers usually carried for free too? Open to correction there, but I think they are?

the groutch

seventeen sheep wrote: »

I do think though that people need to consider that it's usually not that simple ... very few buggies can be folded with one hand, so if you're reliant on public transport, you basically can't count on being able to use the bus until the child is able to stand on their own (so maybe a year old, maybe sooner or maybe later), it's a pain in the ass if you have an appointment to get to.

There are baby slings/carriers, which are great for some people, but don't suit all parents/babies.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that wheelchair users should get priority for the space, and I'd never even consider trying to deny it to them. But with a child that's not standing alone, it's not the inconvenience of folding the buggy, it's the inconvenience of having to get off the bus and wait for the next one - or the one after that, if the space is occupied on the next one - or the one after that. Possibly in an unfamiliar area (depending on the bus route), and probably the child's feeding schedule will be thrown way out as a result.

It's the height of ignorance, however, when a parent tries to deny the wheelchair user the space on the bus. If I really needed to get somewhere by a certain time, I'd get a bus that would get me there a couple of hours earlier, as I know not to depend on getting a buggy space - my baby's not standing yet, and you need two hands to fold his buggy, so we have no other option. I'd also have his carseat with me and money for a taxi just in case all of the buggy/wheelchair spaces on all of the buses were occupied.

Essentially I agree with you, but I don't think that folding a buggy is as minor an inconvenience as you seem to think - not when you have a small baby, anyways!

or just ask another passenger for help folding the buggy.

seventeen sheep

the groutch wrote: »

or just ask another passenger for help folding the buggy.

It's not that easy!!!

Every time I visit my parents, I have to retrain them in how to fold it and which way the seat needs to be facing for it to fold, and remind them to empty the basket first, etc.

And it's not just a case of telling them how to do it, you really need to give them a visual demonstration. You need to squeeze a certain button with one hand, while simultaneously squeezing another button with the other hand and pushing down at a very precise angle (after activating the brake with your foot first) and snapping in a clip - it's hardly rocket science, but at the same time, you couldn't just try to explain it to a randomer on the bus, and expect them to get it straight away.

Hell, I'd be fairly p*ssed off if some randomer asked me to fold their buggy for them, while I was sitting there minding my own business on the way to work. I wouldn't do it to someone else.

monument

CVH24 wrote: »

it is possible to accommodate everyone, it is public transport after all. Your view of allowing people do what they want because they can is just wrong. A civilised society is measured by how it treats it's weak and vulnerable.

For all you know the person pushing the buggy is not able to fold the pram, for all you know they are recovering from major surgery, for all you know they are long-term dis and babies can come high on the list of "weak and vulnerable".

CVH24 wrote: »

As regards the UK ruling it is one to watch but our system would still be different.

UK case law has an effect on the Irish system and can be taken into account in Irish cases.

You don't seem to know this?

CVH24 wrote: »

What is Db policy but it's bye-laws? If a driver enforces the bye laws, he/ she is exceeding their position in your view?

Drivers are not fully open to interpret the bylaws on their own, directives from their managers generally have to be followed. If they don't want to follow orders they can strike or go to the labour court etc -- they are well represented by their unions compared to most workforce (which isn't all a bad thing).

corktina

pwurple wrote: »

The buggies that are easy to fold tend to be suitable for older children, or toddlers who can stand up or sit up. There is no difficulty there.

Newborns are another story. The buggy needs to recline completely flat for small infants (they are a replacement for the old style prams). It is very difficult to fold that kind of buggy while holding a newborn and a nappybag. Let alone in a confined space (on a bus)... which may also be moving. Add the postpartum stitches/pain/csection recovery as well. It's just not possible some of the time.

I travel on buses with a baby fairly frequently, and I'm lucky that usually the bus serving my route has 4+ folding seats, so can take a wheelchair and sometimes two buggies. This is an excellent design.

I don't really think that anyone is aiming their comments at buggy users who can't fold their buggies, I think the barbs are there for the people who could fold their buggies but wont. The first Buggiist mentioned is (imo) on a par with a wheelchair user in terms of eligibility for the space, and the second type is just a Chav who doesn't care about the wheelchair-bound potential passenger.

CVH24

Monument, where was the Dublin Bus management get asked to interprete the bye laws, my understanding the Training school in DB do that as part of the training.

As regards a buggy we could be around this till the world ends but buggies can be folded wheelchairs can not, sadly it is a case of people who have rights and disabilities being pushy to stamp their right is just as great. If people refuse to fold buggies or buy one that are so big and bulky they can not be easily folded how do they manage to be of more important than someone that can only board a bus in a wheelchair. I am not disabled but it would be my worst fear but to think a buggy goes before someone who has no control over over being in a wheelchair or its size. If I have to bring a buggy on a bus i would ensure i could easily do this. In other words I would take responsibility for what I need to do and not expect a bus company provide it for me. It is sad we need to go to this nanny state to legislate for every situation.

As regards UK court cases, they can be looked at only in very restricted circumstances, pre our Justice system and around laws that were inacted with the foundation of the state. Since then we have our own system and these take priority as a sovereign state, we do work on president system of the same as counties previously ruled by the UK. We do have a habit of near coping the UK laws but laws could not said to be the same, we have different priorities for example we have the consitution being fundamental.

SMJSF

Imo, I think the parent and child should be taken off the bus if refused to move.
A physically disabled person (wheelchair/crutches/etc) I think should definitely get priority over a child and it's buggy!!

seventeen sheep

CVH24 wrote: »

As regards a buggy we could be around this till the world ends but buggies can be folded wheelchairs can not, sadly it is a case of people who have rights and disabilities being pushy to stamp their right is just as great. If people refuse to fold buggies or buy one that are so big and bulky they can not be easily folded how do they manage to be of more important than someone that can only board a bus in a wheelchair. I am not disabled but it would be my worst fear but to think a buggy goes before someone who has no control over over being in a wheelchair or its size. If I have to bring a buggy on a bus i would ensure i could easily do this. In other words I would take responsibility for what I need to do and not expect a bus company provide it for me. It is sad we need to go to this nanny state to legislate for every situation.

I knowingly bought a buggy that couldn't be folded on a bus while carrying a small baby; as explained above, it had other benefits that were more important to me, and I don't often have to get a bus. When I do, I factor into account the fact that I may have to disembark several times along the route to allow for wheelchair passengers.

In my experience most parents are aware of this and will either fold down the buggy or get off the bus if a wheelchair user gets on .... actually, in my experience, it's the latter option most go for. Just not worth the hassle to wake a sleeping baby and take out everything to fold the buggy ... easier to just wait for the next bus!

corktina

SMJSF wrote: »

Imo, I think the parent and child should be taken off the bus if refused to move.
A physically disabled person (wheelchair/crutches/etc) I think should definitely get priority over a child and it's buggy!!

How do you Police this? How can you be sure that that Mother and/or Child you throw off the bus are not themselves disabled in some way, even in a temporary way that many a new Mum might be? Your standpoint is far too simplistic

seventeen sheep

corktina wrote: »

How do you Police this? How can you be sure that that Mother and/or Child you throw off the bus are not themselves disabled in some way, even in a temporary way that many a new Mum might be? Your standpoint is far too simplistic

A fair point.

Most mothers who are lucky enough to have a natural healthy birth should probably not suffer any disability (even temporarily); however; up to 30% of Irish births are C-Sections, in which case the mother is advised not to lift anything heavier than the baby for six weeks. A buggy weighs a lot more than a baby!

corktina

There is also the point that some disabled people aren't as disabled as others. So do you throw a struggling mum off a bus in favour of a mildly disabled person as a matter of course? (or a guy on crutches as was suggested, who really shouldn't be included in this discussion seeing as they don't need the space at all, (they need a seat)

CVH24

Seventeen sheep, I have no problem with you stand point as your buggy choice, you made a decision as to what was important to you and you are happy to take steps when you us the bus, that is perfect I can not see anyone could have a problem with that.

As regards your point as regards mothers being temporary limited in what they can do, I see your point and believe the system of the two bays on buses is the way forward. New situations arise and need to be factored in as assets are modified or renewed. Like most things they need to be certified and due process followed, much an all as we may hate it. The wheelchair passenger must take priority, as was pointed out it is otherwise impossible to police. Its like I have been on the bus and people comment about the number of passes presented and there is nothing wrong with them, well it could be a mental disability and we all must accept the certified and reply on the system.

The other point that has been brought up with the two bays and the double doors, alot of downstairs space is being used up and then more people than before have to go upstairs especially the older people, I quite frankly do not believe we can keep all people happy!

cdebru

seventeen sheep wrote: »

A fair point.

Most mothers who are lucky enough to have a natural healthy birth should probably not suffer any disability (even temporarily); however; up to 30% of Irish births are C-Sections, in which case the mother is advised not to lift anything heavier than the baby for six weeks. A buggy weighs a lot more than a baby!

Of course there are genuine cases, but there are also cases where the child is able to walk doesn't need anyone to lift them, and if you are planning on using public transport shouldn't you factor in having to fold the buggy and the size and weight when choosing a buggy ?

Trust me a lot of the time it is nothing more than ignorance and laziness. You see men and women who have actually taken the child out of the buggy/pram and when informed that if they are not using the buggy they will have to fold it to make way for someone who needs the space they place the child back into the buggy to avoid folding, these are not just babies these are upto school going children.

Sheldons Brain

seventeen sheep wrote: »

A fair point.

Most mothers who are lucky enough to have a natural healthy birth should probably not suffer any disability (even temporarily); however; up to 30% of Irish births are C-Sections, in which case the mother is advised not to lift anything heavier than the baby for six weeks. A buggy weighs a lot more than a baby!

Any mother needing a disabled classification could be given a 2 month cert or whatever by the hospital.

cdebru

corktina wrote: »

There is also the point that some disabled people aren't as disabled as others. So do you throw a struggling mum off a bus in favour of a mildly disabled person as a matter of course? (or a guy on crutches as was suggested, who really shouldn't be included in this discussion seeing as they don't need the space at all, (they need a seat)

Without getting into medical examinations someone who is disabled enough to use a wheelchair is presumably more disabled than someone who just pushed a buggy onto the bus. Now going back to the original case that gave rise to all this if the child is disabled and you can't remove the child then you have the right to the space if you have any kind of medical condition that prevents you from removing the child then you have the right to the space, but in general all things being equal it should go to the person who needs it more, unfortunately the problem is differentiating between those who really need it and those who are just plain lazy.

coylemj

cdebru wrote: »

Without getting into medical examinations someone who is disabled enough to use a wheelchair is presumably more disabled than someone who just pushed a buggy onto the bus.

Take your point but I still remember when I was in Disney Orlando a few years ago and there was usually a few people driving invalid cars at the bus stops. Often they would drive up the ramp, the driver would tether the car to the mounting points and often if there was a free seat nearby the 'invalid' would miraculously stand up and sit down beside the window for the better view. They weren't disabled at all, just lazy, overweight fat bastards.

corktina

There are many selfish people out there unfortunately and that impacts on the genuine people using buggies who might have no problem in obliging someone else if only they were able to

flutered

try using a mobility scooter on any high street, or in a shop, not an enjoyable experience.

pwurple

SMJSF wrote: »

Imo, I think the parent and child should be taken off the bus if refused to move.
A physically disabled person (wheelchair/crutches/etc) I think should definitely get priority over a child and it's buggy!!

I disagree. To me, they are equal. First come first serve. There is no way women (or men) with babies should be confined to their house instead of being allowed to use public transport like everyone else. Any woman after a c-section cannot legally drive, or fold a buggy. Similar for 2nd or 3rd degree tears. There is zero paternity leave here, so she is all on her own. Wtf is she supposed to do? Explain the details of her vaginal/uterine injury to a bus driver? Give over.

The correct solution is buses that accommodate both.

cdebru

pwurple wrote: »

I disagree. To me, they are equal. First come first serve. There is no way women (or men) with babies should be confined to their house instead of being allowed to use public transport like everyone else. Any woman after a c-section cannot legally drive, or fold a buggy. Similar for 2nd or 3rd degree tears. There is zero paternity leave here, so she is all on her own. Wtf is she supposed to do? Explain the details of her vaginal/uterine injury to a bus driver? Give over.

The correct solution is buses that accommodate both.

No one is saying they should be confined to anywhere but in general a woman or man can remove a child from a buggy and continue their journey in general a person in a wheelchair doesn't have any other options, there may be exceptional cases where a woman or man cannot remove a child ( because of a disability to the child or adult) but that shouldn't excuse the lazy ****s with a 5 year old in a buggy who just couldn't be arsed folding it and would instead leave a wheelchair user behind. So the problem is how to you accommodate the genuine cases without discommoding the wheelchair users to benefit people just to lazy and ignorant to fold a buggy.

And the correct solution is not to endlessly fit more and more buggy spaces till downstairs is a just standing room and buggy/wheelchair spaces it does not solve the problem and will just make public transport even more unattractive for the people with no wheelchair or buggy. You make 2 spaces and you have 2 buggies still no space for a wheelchair, you make 4, 5, 6 and you fill them up with buggies still no space for a wheelchair, that doesn't fix the problem.

cdebru

coylemj wrote: »

Take your point but I still remember when I was in Disney Orlando a few years ago and there was usually a few people driving invalid cars at the bus stops. Often they would drive up the ramp, the driver would tether the car to the mounting points and often if there was a free seat nearby the 'invalid' would miraculously stand up and sit down beside the window for the better view. They weren't disabled at all, just lazy, overweight fat bastards.

Slightly different, I think you jump the queues in Disney when you are wheelchair bound and your family so massive incentive to avoid hours of queuing, I believe I read somewhere that disabled people were actually getting paid to accompany people to theme parks to skip the queues, as appealing as a trip is on DB I can't see many faking to that extent to get the wheelchair spot.

foggy_lad

CVH24 wrote: »

I 100% believe the wheelchair user has first priority to the space but the problem also exists that many buggies are getting bigger and as such harder and more awkward to fold and lift, it is a difficult one but I think the DB solution may be the answer, one for each and only one for each.

As regards the legal issues here, the bye-laws should take care of it, if a person is asked to do something they are required to do it unless it is illegal and as such by boarding the bus you are agreeing to the bye laws.

When you think back before 2000 there was no spaces for either.

Your points are all good and I would frown on any buggy pusher either refusing to fold or refusing to leave the bus and get the next one so that a wheelchair user could board the bus BUT we must look at it from an Equality prospective rather than an accessibility or disability perspective, and when we do it becomes clear that any able bodied passenger has the same rights as any other disabled passenger when it comes to taking up a space on the bus. The only space that is different is the wheelchair space which is reserved for those that need it, whether they have a wheelchair or a buggy.

A driver might ask some strong fit young guy to stand and let some feeble old granny sit down but that would be discriminating. In the same way giving a wheelchair user priority over a buggy user is also discriminating.

CVH24 wrote: »

"The Busdriver must be heard to request,however if that request is declined,then no further action can legally be taken and the Wheelchair user must wait for another bus."

The bye laws require passengers to obey any lawful instruction to be complied with, if not they can be asked to leave the service as the bus company can terminate there contract as the other party did not for full the terms and conditions of travel. Years ago I bought the timetable and abit bored read the bye laws and conditions of travel, They sadly never faded!

I totally agree about flip down seats, they should not be making a comeback here!

It is not lawful because it would be discriminating against one passenger on the basis of them not being disabled.

CVH24 wrote: »

As long as they are asked to do something which does not break the law it is lawful. That is the T&C's they freely and lawfully excepted. The Bus is private property and as such the operators demain.

The operator is not allowed to discriminate on the basis of a persons ability/disability. Telling a passenger they can not use the buggy space for their child in a buggy is discriminating against them because their child is not disabled.

The space is "marked" as a disabled space but is actually a space for wheelchair/buggy users whether disabled or able-bodied.

end of the road

well we could start by banning these locomotives that they call buggys these days

CVH24

Okay Foggy Lad, I get your points, what suggestions do you have or any body to resolving the current situation, because watching the case in the UK it's going to the supreme court and the high court judges have indicated a need for parliament interjection in future laws.

Just a quick question on parking, if I appear on a road and I need to park, but all the spaces are full except the disabled space I am be discriminated against as I can not park my car where I want. So I can because its first come first served. And in car parks can I be clamped for parking in the disabled spaces without a disc. I just feel we are going down a very poor line.

Oh one the DB bye laws, if the child in the buggy is taking up a seat or a space in a disabled space should they not be charged?

mmmcake

Was talking to a driver this morning and asked him about this. He said first come, first served. If a buggy is on and they wont fold when a wheel chair wants to get on, tough luck for the wheel chair. "I can only ask them to fold the buggy, i cant make them, all buggys should be folded, how did people manage 10 years ago".

pwurple

cdebru wrote: »

And the correct solution is not to endlessly fit more and more buggy spaces till downstairs is a just standing room and buggy/wheelchair spaces it does not solve the problem and will just make public transport even more unattractive for the people with no wheelchair or buggy. You make 2 spaces and you have 2 buggies still no space for a wheelchair, you make 4, 5, 6 and you fill them up with buggies still no space for a wheelchair, that doesn't fix the problem.

What's so wrong with folding seats exactly?
My local bus has them and can fit multiple buggies/wheelchairs at the same time.

I don't have any problem sitting on a folding seat. Has anyone ever expressed that?

CVH24

Well my under standing the buggies are limited to one unfolded and the rest must be folded. not multiples of unfolded buggies.

On the folding seat, there are more accidents with them as people do nor always catch the seat and now have a claim, it is compounded by the fact the buses moves. As was said the is a move away from them in London and they are easier to brake.

Mrs OBumble

Victor wrote: »

It's simple - remove a seat or two. It might encourage people to stand further down the back as well.

Remove half of the seats in the downstairs area of all buses: lots of space for as many buggies, wheelchairs etc, still some seats for the genuinely old / disabled, but the rest are well able to stand and will burn up a few more calories if they do.

The other day, I was in a bus (BE Galway city single decker, with three buggies, a lad with a large wheelie suitcase, two people with backpacks ... and an older person who was too <<something - I'm not sure what to call it, but it's not polite>> to walk to the free seats further down the bus. Absolutely comic watching them try to all fit in the space - and make it almost impossible for anyone else to get on or off.

seventeen sheep

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Any mother needing a disabled classification could be given a 2 month cert or whatever by the hospital.

That's a new thing, is it?

In my experience such certs don't exist?

Have regulations changed recently? If so, I'm delighted to hear it.

LXFlyer

Victor wrote: »

It's simple - remove a seat or two. It might encourage people to stand further down the back as well.

There are limits as to how many more seats can be removed - they've already lost seats through having centre doors. The low floor means there are no seats over the front axles.

Believe it or not many elderly people cannot go upstairs!