Bus Driver inability to hear or see Ambulance

kerry4sam

Mods: feel free to move if not in right forum.

Query re: Driving Buses & call it blind-sighted perhaps?!

I heard the sirens before I saw the ambulance. Not sure how this bus-driver could not have. The driver had ample room to pull in and let the Ambulance drive past with all lights & sirens blazing!

I joined main traffic behind the ambulance after they passed me and I saw the frustration on their faces as they wanted to pass the bus. They kept driving out over the white line to get bus drivers attention from behind (since he clearly didn't hear sirens) and maybe that'd get his attention in the mirror and he'd pull into the left, but not just yet.

Now, I've never driven a bus so am completely unaware of the field of vision; noise disturbances inside by drivers seat to prevent them from hearing the blaring sirens;
but
What reasons would have prevented this driver from acting sooner than he did?

If I'd found out that ambulance was en route to a loved one of mine after seeing this blatant annoying hold-up delay by this bus-driver I'd be having words with the company. Might still contact them about this & it has annoyed me!

Any thoughts or Answers?
Many Thanks in advance,
kerry4sam

Mrs OBumble

Is this a particular incident that we're all supposed to know about? Or did you miss some details?


Either way - if that annoys you, don't travel to the places in America, where drivers routinely don't give way to ambulances. I have no idea why.

kerry4sam

kerry4sam wrote: »

Mods: feel free to move if not in right forum.

Query re: Driving Buses & call it blind-sighted perhaps?!

I heard the sirens before I saw the ambulance. Not sure how this bus-driver could not have. The driver had ample room to pull in and let the Ambulance drive past with all lights & sirens blazing!

I joined main traffic behind the ambulance after they passed me and I saw the frustration on their faces as they wanted to pass the bus. They kept driving out over the white line to get bus drivers attention from behind (since he clearly didn't hear sirens) and maybe that'd get his attention in the mirror and he'd pull into the left, but not just yet.

Now, I've never driven a bus so am completely unaware of the field of vision; noise disturbances inside by drivers seat to prevent them from hearing the blaring sirens;
but
What reasons would have prevented this driver from acting sooner than he did?

If I'd found out that ambulance was en route to a loved one of mine after seeing this blatant annoying hold-up delay by this bus-driver I'd be having words with the company. Might still contact them about this & it has annoyed me!

Any thoughts or Answers?
Many Thanks in advance,
kerry4sam

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Is this a particular incident that we're all supposed to know about? Or did you miss some details?


Either way - if that annoys you, don't travel to the places in America, where drivers routinely don't give way to ambulances. I have no idea why.

You have completely ignored the part highlighted in bold by me. Would you have an answer for that instead of some scenario about the USA not relevant to me or this scenario.

Thanks,
kerry4sam

mmmcake

might not have been safe to pull over

kerry4sam

mmmcake wrote: »

might not have been safe to pull over

Yeah but it was though. Ample room at the point where I saw them.

AlekSmart

Nowhere near enough detail to make a call on this post.

Some guidelines (Aside from Commonsense) are here....

http://www.rsa.ie/Utility/News/2012/New-Booklet-Advises-How-To-Share-The-Road-With-Emergency-Vehicles/

*Clear the way as soon as you can do so safely.

*Never mount the kerb unless you absolutely have to and, even then, only if you are certain that there are no pedestrians in the area.

*Check your rear view mirrors to gauge the speed of the emergency vehicle/s and also look out for pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users.

*Indicate your intention to pull over. Pull over only in a space that has enough space for the emergency vehicle/s to pass safely.

This UK site and video clip contain a few recommendations and instructions for dealing with Emergency Vehicles,many of which detail situations where a driver would NOT immediately pull-over.

http://www.bluelightaware.org.uk/

Of equal note is the fact that Emergency Service drivers would have undertaken a significant element of specialized training in response driving.

foggy_lad

kerry4sam wrote: »

Yeah but it was though. Ample room at the point where I saw them.

You would be better voicing your concerns to a member of the Gardai in the area the company is based and bring up how it appeared that the bus driver did not notice the ambulance and failed to give way or pull over for it. If it delayed the ambulance there is a possibility that the crew have already reported it.

The driver is of course not legally obliged to pull off the road onto the verge or hard shoulder if an ambulance wants to pass, it is up to the ambulance driver to find a safe place to overtake.

CVH24

There is no legal requirement to move over for an emergency vehicle unless directed by garda. It is only a courtesy extended to them by motorists. Unless you have the vision of the drivers seat it is not possible to make the maybe's or be's of the situation.

Also emergency vehicle are not exempt from road traffic regulations either, that is why they are required to under take specific special training. There was a very frightening story of a fire engine running a red light and being involved in a fatal RTA, now the current guide line is to proceed through a red light at now more than 5 MPH.

It is quite surprising but sadly many things surprise us, quite a grey area in doing it really, sadly!

kerry4sam

^^^ Thanks for the helpful replies thus far.

Could anyone in the profession / with any experience of driving buses or even larger vehicle like trucks at all tell me:
Are their any measures that you can think of that would make it easier for those-drivers to see the ES-vehicles faster; more easier ...

Many Thanks,
kerry4sam

AlekSmart

kerry4sam wrote: »

^^^ Thanks for the helpful replies thus far.

Could anyone in the profession / with any experience of driving buses or even larger vehicle like trucks at all tell me:
Are their any measures that you can think of that would make it easier for those-drivers to see the ES-vehicles faster; more easier ...

Many Thanks,
kerry4sam

I would say that all of the current measures are sufficient.

The ES drivers will be using their defensive/pursuite mode training to assess and respond to the vastly different menu of responses they are presented with.

Each "Shout" will bring different response challenges,whether from a driving or treatment perspective,with the most valuable contribution from other motorists being the allocation of space to the ES vehicle.

This does not always entail stopping,or moving over but rather maintaining progress At the Speed Limit,until the ES vehicle can perform an overtake safely.

Generally speaking,a Bus or Truck drivers major advantage will be their elevated driving position,something ES drivers will sometimes avail of to assess a route through traffic.

Whilst the Busdriver K4S encountered may well be a prize ass-whole,I would be of the opinion that,in a very dynamic and rapidly altering situation,there may have been other factors contributing to the decision he/she made.

From my conversations with Gardai/ES drivers,their greatest challenge in response driving is the curse of the Mobile Phone.....:rolleyes:

thadg

from what I see in the last few years a lot of bus drivers are in there late 50's to early 60's , retired gards, or retired eircom,esb workers etc with nothing to do so they go away and get a bus licence and hit the road , holding up everyone else in the process.

they are not used of the size of the bus and just cant get it , and move in out of the way.

the man in the camper van is in this category too, driving his shiney 00 corolla 10 months of the year and sitting in to his left hand drive camper then for the summer, wiping out all round him without knowing it,

CVH24

I remember speaking with an ambulance driver a while back, original here in Ireland they were advised to use bus lane but the UK thinking was to keep outside on the bases traffic moves left and only when clear so the outer lane route would be generally safer.

As for reporting the bus driver to the garda, is a bit crazy as you also point out it not a legal obligation so the bus driver strictly speaking has nothing wrong!

Alun

From my own experience of having lived abroad (mainland Europe) for most of my adult life, one thing that struck me almost immediately when I moved here was how little ES drivers here use their sirens. Often they only have lights on and then only switch on the sirens when they come up behind a group of stationary vehicles. The problem then is that often it's too late, as at that point they're all too close to each other to easily move 'en-masse' to one side.

TheQuietFella

kerry4sam wrote: »

^^^ Thanks for the helpful replies thus far.

Could anyone in the profession / with any experience of driving buses or even larger vehicle like trucks at all tell me:
Are their any measures that you can think of that would make it easier for those-drivers to see the ES-vehicles faster; more easier ...

Many Thanks,
kerry4sam

Every case or road is different as you can well imagine.
You can't just bulldoze your was to the roadside because an emergency vehicle is behind you however well intentioned the driver is.
In some situations it would make common sense for the driver to continue
at a slow speed until they find a safe place to stop.

kerry4sam

^^^ Thanks so Much for the detailed & insightful replies.

thadg wrote: »

from what I see in the last few years a lot of bus drivers are in there late 50's to early 60's , retired gards, or retired eircom,esb workers etc with nothing to do so they go away and get a bus licence and hit the road , holding up everyone else in the process.

they are not used of the size of the bus and just cant get it , and move in out of the way...

This is what along the lines of what I am thinking of. When he did pull the bus over and allow the Ambulance pass, the bus was quite 'shaky' afterward and not as steady as it had been. This is what makes me think he got a huge fright when eventually he did NOTICE the ambulance & was v-slow in fully re-joining the flow of traffic.

So it could be also be a training issue perhaps with the training & issuing of licences for driving larger vehicles perhaps?

Thanks again,
kerry4sam

foggy_lad

CVH24 wrote: »

As for reporting the bus driver to the garda, is a bit crazy as you also point out it not a legal obligation so the bus driver strictly speaking has nothing wrong!

I suggested it as there may have been some other reason that the driver did not respond such as being almost deaf or maybe some other impairment which might mean he should not be driving.

Drivers must obey all direction given at roadworks accidents etc and where they come upon someone directing traffic but when a vehicle approaches from the rear you are not obliged to do anything and certainly not obliged to pull off the road, not even for the Gardai as suggested in one post.

thadg

foggy_lad wrote: »

I suggested it as there may have been some other reason that the driver did not respond such as being almost deaf or maybe some other impairment which might mean he should not be driving.

Drivers must obey all direction given at roadworks accidents etc and where they come upon someone directing traffic but when a vehicle approaches from the rear you are not obliged to do anything and certainly not obliged to pull off the road, not even for the Gardai as suggested in one post.

that's why there are so many accidents, because of this attitude by people, I see a lot of cars driving away with 2 mirrors pushed in, this should be an immediate disqual for the driver, its impossible to drive without mirrors, youd be like a cat without whiskers! they obviously don't use them so don't know what is going on around them.

the standard of driving in this country is very bad, hogging the outside lane on the motorway and on climbing lanes etc, in the uk you would be pulled over for that kind of thing but not here

CVH24

foggy_lad wrote: »

I suggested it as there may have been some other reason that the driver did not respond such as being almost deaf or maybe some other impairment which might mean he should not be driving.

Drivers must obey all direction given at roadworks accidents etc and where they come upon someone directing traffic but when a vehicle approaches from the rear you are not obliged to do anything and certainly not obliged to pull off the road, not even for the Gardai as suggested in one post.

Drivers do not have to obey any direction at roadworks they do not believe to be safe, as when they were doing the roadworks before the customs house a bus driver refused to go through the road work as he did not believe the LE coach could not maneuver in the given space, the road workers had to move cones to allow the coach proceed safely. The driver has responsibility for the bus at all times, no one else.

As regards the gardai, you are required in law to follow all directions given by them, as regards someone directing traffic they have to be trained in that as otherwise anyone could do.

Truckermal

thadg wrote: »

from what I see in the last few years a lot of bus drivers are in there late 50's to early 60's , retired gards, or retired eircom,esb workers etc with nothing to do so they go away and get a bus licence and hit the road , holding up everyone else in the process.

they are not used of the size of the bus and just cant get it , and move in out of the way.

the man in the camper van is in this category too, driving his shiney 00 corolla 10 months of the year and sitting in to his left hand drive camper then for the summer, wiping out all round him without knowing it,

This...^^^^^^^ OP this is your answer also to answer further these drivers will never get any better most likely worse. I normally drive a vehicle longer than a bus and normally see a ES vehicle long before the car's behind me do.

I remember keeping in one day for a ambulance only to be overtaken by a car which was fine but he would not keep in for the Ambulance. I did report the driver to the local AGS who gave him a good bollocking further down the road.

Losty Dublin

Alun wrote: »

From my own experience of having lived abroad (mainland Europe) for most of my adult life, one thing that struck me almost immediately when I moved here was how little ES drivers here use their sirens. Often they only have lights on and then only switch on the sirens when they come up behind a group of stationary vehicles. The problem then is that often it's too late, as at that point they're all too close to each other to easily move 'en-masse' to one side.

About 20 years, Dublin Fire Brigade took delivery of a fleet of vehicles with extremely loud siren tones similar to those used in the US. Within weeks they had to stop using them due to complaints from Dubliners who claimed that they were disturbing them and that they were too loud and annoying!

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

About 20 years, Dublin Fire Brigade took delivery of a fleet of vehicles with extremely loud siren tones similar to those used in the US. Within weeks they had to stop using them due to complaints from Dubliners who claimed that they were disturbing them and that they were too loud and annoying!

From memory was it not because the sirens were driving dogs and other animals mad wherever the ambulances went, many dogs were run over while they went mad chasing the ambulance and fire brigade vehicles.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

From memory was it not because the sirens were driving dogs and other animals mad wherever the ambulances went, many dogs were run over while they went mad chasing the ambulance and fire brigade vehicles.

The madness of canines is often only equalled by that of their masters....

http://wonderingminstrels.blogspot.ie/1999/12/elegy-on-death-of-mad-dog-oliver.html

cdebru

The standard of driving among some drivers for private operators often leaves a lot to be desired, I don't know if they only recently started driving or are not used to driving in traffic, but their inability to take correct and maintain road position or follow basic road markings like left turn only lanes never ceases to amaze me.

paddyland

cdebru wrote: »

The standard of driving among some drivers for private operators often leaves a lot to be desired, I don't know if they only recently started driving or are not used to driving in traffic, but their inability to take correct and maintain road position or follow basic road markings like left turn only lanes never ceases to amaze me.

That post smacks of someone who just doesn't like private buses. The standard of driving among private bus operators is no different to the standards found in Dublin Bus, among truck and van drivers, taxi drivers, or anyone else. There are good and bad everywhere, but we are inclined to remember the bad. You are aware that bus drivers, both state and private, DO on occasion straddle lanes, because that is the only way large vehicles can negotiate some tight turns?

cdebru

paddyland wrote: »

That post smacks of someone who just doesn't like private buses. The standard of driving among private bus operators is no different to the standards found in Dublin Bus, among truck and van drivers, taxi drivers, or anyone else. There are good and bad everywhere, but we are inclined to remember the bad. You are aware that bus drivers, both state and private, DO on occasion straddle lanes, because that is the only way large vehicles can negotiate some tight turns?

No there are good and bad everywhere, but IMO there are more poor drivers among private operators, drivers in the DB and BE are better trained and subject to continual training and review which is not true in the most of the private sector and it shows. I wouldn't consider van or taxi drivers to be professional drivers, they have no more training than the average driver and an awful lot of them would be a lower grade of average driver.

Straddling lanes is often necessary but the ability to work out what lane you should be in on the far side of a junction is one that seems to escape a lot of private bus drivers, just look at O'Connell Bridge to D'Olier Street where very few can work out that if you are in the 3rd from left on the bridge you should be 3rd from left when you enter D'Olier St, the south quays also catch them out on a regular basis, you obey the road markings not just drive in a straight line.

corktina

My significant other is a Paramedic and has never had any specialised driver training

magentis

corktina wrote: »

My significant other is a Paramedic and has never had any specialised driver training

I hope im never in that ambulance.

cdebru

corktina wrote: »

My significant other is a Paramedic and has never had any specialised driver training

Which is another point altogether I know an ambulance driver also with no training and I wouldn't get into a car with him,god forbid ever riding in an ambulance with him, if I was ever unfortunate enough to need an ambulance I think the fear of him driving me would kill me quicker than any other injuries.

corktina

magentis wrote: »

I hope im never in that ambulance.

yah, but it isn't just the one Ambulance you know....best you stay out of them all to be on the safe side eh

HivemindXX

Alun wrote: »

From my own experience of having lived abroad (mainland Europe) for most of my adult life, one thing that struck me almost immediately when I moved here was how little ES drivers here use their sirens. Often they only have lights on and then only switch on the sirens when they come up behind a group of stationary vehicles. The problem then is that often it's too late, as at that point they're all too close to each other to easily move 'en-masse' to one side.

I prefer this. My interpretation of an emergency vehicle coming up behind me with lights on but no sirens is that they are happy to overtake me like any other fast moving traffic and I can proceed as normal. If they put the sirens on I understand this to mean they want me to facilitate them by getting out of the way.

kerry4sam

^^^ Thanks again for all your replies in here,
Much Appreciated,
kerry4sam

monument

paddyland wrote: »

That post smacks of someone who just doesn't like private buses. The standard of driving among private bus operators is no different to the standards found in Dublin Bus, among truck and van drivers, taxi drivers, or anyone else. There are good and bad everywhere, but we are inclined to remember the bad. You are aware that bus drivers, both state and private, DO on occasion straddle lanes, because that is the only way large vehicles can negotiate some tight turns?

From the perspective of cycling around Dublin, the drivers of Dublin Bus services are on average notablly better than taxi drivers, drivers of scheduled private services, and van drivers.

Dublin Bus drivers and HGV drivers are not perfect and there's some bad ones of each, but they are still on average better than others.

paddyland

cdebru wrote: »

Straddling lanes is often necessary but the ability to work out what lane you should be in on the far side of a junction is one that seems to escape a lot of private bus drivers, just look at O'Connell Bridge to D'Olier Street where very few can work out that if you are in the 3rd from left on the bridge you should be 3rd from left when you enter D'Olier St, the south quays also catch them out on a regular basis, you obey the road markings not just drive in a straight line.

That applies equally to Dublin Bus drivers. I am constantly squeezed out coming onto D'Olier Street by Dublin Bus. And by taxis. Most follow the lanes, but many don't, and I am quite sure that those who dont, know damned well how the lanes go, and are doing so deliberately. You see what you want to see, however, and if you just don't like private buses, or think that they are somehow inferior, then that is what you will see.

paddyland

monument wrote: »

From the perspective of cycling around Dublin, the drivers of Dublin Bus services are on average notablly better than taxi drivers, drivers of scheduled private services, and van drivers.

Dublin Bus drivers and HGV drivers are not perfect and there's some bad ones of each, but they are still on average better than others.

Interesting that you mention scheduled private services. There is a point to be made there. It is not so much that these are worse drivers. I contend that in normal operating circumstances, they are not. However, some of the private scheduled services are operated to insanely tight schedules, and illegally long working days. Put any driver under those circumstances, day in, day out, and you will see what it does to their driving finesse. Many drivers burn out after six months or so. This is an argument which needs to be made. I am pro privatisation. But it is hard to make that argument, when the sharks come along, and wring the business to the bone, turning over staff every six months, leaving the reputable operators unable to compete financially. That is a whole other debate, but it has effects on everything, not least the standard of driving on the road. But don't take it out on the individual driver. You have no idea what kind of regime some of them are working for. I did it once, and never again.

cdebru

monument wrote: »

From the perspective of cycling around Dublin, the drivers of Dublin Bus services are on average notablly better than taxi drivers, drivers of scheduled private services, and van drivers.

Dublin Bus drivers and HGV drivers are not perfect and there's some bad ones of each, but they are still on average better than others.

I agree, I would never claim in an organization of 2000+ drivers they are all good, I cycle everyday as well and in my experience in general they are of a higher standard, in regards to giving space and having patience.

SpaceTime

I actually find in Ireland there are two extremes of reaction to ambulances:

1) Completely over-reacting and actually creating an obstruction rather than helping - like trying to pull in on a really narrow road.
I actually had a situation in Cork City where a driver mounted the pavement and nearly ran me over because an ambulance (without flashing blues) was behind him. I don't think the ambulance was even in a rush!

2) Ignore the ambulance completely and go into another kind of panic and refuse to get out of the way.

There's a happy medium where you just get out of the path of the ambulance without causing more problems.

cdebru

paddyland wrote: »

That applies equally to Dublin Bus drivers. I am constantly squeezed out coming onto D'Olier Street by Dublin Bus. And by taxis. Most follow the lanes, but many don't, and I am quite sure that those who dont, know damned well how the lanes go, and are doing so deliberately. You see what you want to see, however, and if you just don't like private buses, or think that they are somehow inferior, then that is what you will see.

paddyland wrote: »

Interesting that you mention scheduled private services. There is a point to be made there. It is not so much that these are worse drivers. I contend that in normal operating circumstances, they are not. However, some of the private scheduled services are operated to insanely tight schedules, and illegally long working days. Put any driver under those circumstances, day in, day out, and you will see what it does to their driving finesse. Many drivers burn out after six months or so. This is an argument which needs to be made. I am pro privatisation. But it is hard to make that argument, when the sharks come along, and wring the business to the bone, turning over staff every six months, leaving the reputable operators unable to compete financially. That is a whole other debate, but it has effects on everything, not least the standard of driving on the road. But don't take it out on the individual driver. You have no idea what kind of regime some of them are working for. I did it once, and never again.

Honestly I'm telling it as I see it, I don't mean all DB drivers are good and all private operators are bad, just that on average I find their driving and awareness of a higher standard.
You are right of course that in private operators time is money and money is profit and there may be pressure on private bus drivers that is not applied to DB, it is one of the worrying things about the NTA plan for tendering and one that is rarely if ever mentioned, when you change the model will those pressures be applied to drivers for the tendered services after all the companies will be paying by the hour but they will be paid by the km, so the more Kms you can squeeze into an hour you lower your costs and increase your profit. But at what cost to safety ?

_Kaiser_

My initial thought on reading the OP was "bus driver with earphones on"? See it all too often with car drivers.