New NTA contracts for Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann

thomasj

Will be interesting to see this in action

http://www.herald.ie/news/new-penalties-if-the-bus-is-late-or-driver-is-rude-30798335.html

100 euro fine if bus leaves terminus 1 minute early or 5 minutes later

Intresting to see if some of the fines that all be imposed will be acted upon . especially with the upcoming luas disruption.

Sorry if posted already.

LXFlyer

All of the elements of the contracts are not coming in straight away.

They're going to be phased in over the next couple of years.

But the NTA is finally getting some teeth.

thomasj

Ah okay.

That should have been mentioned. One of the dublin radio stations said september.

Is the contracts available for public viewing yet?

LXFlyer

The new five year contracts (effective 1 December 2014) between the NTA and Dublin Bus / Bus Eireann were published yesterday.


There is a significant increase in the requirements that the NTA are looking for from the operators, but the requirement is that this be provided over a phased period.


The full details are here:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/new-public-transport-contracts-signed-between-national-transport-authority-and-dublin-bus-bus-eireann/

s8080

what idiot in the NTA came up with the twitter requirement.
the two companies are broke and will now have to have someone man a twitter account 24/7/364.
how many people would that need in each company? 4 or 5, sounds like money well spent

do private operators have the same requirements?
or are DB/BE being held to a higher standard

StreetLight

Maybe the NTA could also issue fines against those who continually tweet into the Dublin Bus page with derogatory comments and filthy language directed at staff.

LXFlyer

s8080 wrote: »

what idiot in the NTA came up with the twitter requirement.
the two companies are broke and will now have to have someone man a twitter account 24/7/364.
how many people would that need in each company? 4 or 5, sounds like money well spent

do private operators have the same requirements?
or are DB/BE being held to a higher standard

Believe it or not people do want to know whether their bus or train is actually operating.


Twitter is probably one of the most effective ways of communicating with customers for transport companies.


It is becoming the norm for transport companies to have their twitter accounts manned during all operating hours.

devnull

s8080 wrote: »

what idiot in the NTA came up with the twitter requirement.
the two companies are broke and will now have to have someone man a twitter account 24/7/364.
how many people would that need in each company? 4 or 5, sounds like money well spent

do private operators have the same requirements?
or are DB/BE being held to a higher standard

DB and BE are funded by the taxpayer to provide said services, private operators are not.

s8080

devnull wrote: »

DB and BE are funded by the taxpayer to provide said services, private operators are not.

i believe the public would rather have their money paying for someone to drive a bus instead of tweeting to them there is a staff shortage.

it dont make any sense

devnull

It makes plenty of sense to me, the company is a public service after all and the public deserve a way to access accurate information quickly.

The same needs to happen with Irish Rail who are currently worse than Dublin Bus in this regard, only today they made a DART run non stop from Howth Junction to Connolly leaving a gap of almost 40 minutes at Northside stations between services at peak times.

No announcement, no information, no apology it just vanished from the display and flew past without stopping.

Tragedy

lxflyer wrote: »

Believe it or not people do want to know whether their bus or train is actually operating.


Twitter is probably one of the most effective ways of communicating with customers for transport companies.


It is becoming the norm for transport companies to have their twitter accounts manned during all operating hours.

Facebook has almost 4x as many users in Ireland as Twitter - is there also someone manning the Facebook page?

The Operator shall use any Facebook account it may maintain in relation to the Services for
marketing purposes only, and should include a notice on its Facebook page that comments
and complaints in relation to the Services should be made via the on-line customer comments
and complaints form on the Operator’s website, via email at customercomment@dublinbus.ie,
via the lo-call number.

Oh I see. That makes sense, mandate that the social media service with the least amount of users be the one that must be manned and used for customer service.

devnull

Twitter to be fair is more to the point and better in a real time situation.

Tragedy

devnull wrote: »

Twitter to be fair is more to the point and better in a real time situation.

How?

https://www.facebook.com/DublinBusNews
https://twitter.com/dublinbusnews

On both you see the latest news, on both you can message Dublin Bus. The only difference is layout. One reaches ~2.4m Irish People, one reaches 700,000.

devnull

On one people can write essays that take a lot longer to reply to, and get their friends to join in and say "well said Dave" and to spam their links.

On the other you can write short and to the point messages without all and sundry joining in to have a rant or to spam their link etc.

Tragedy

Huh? You can't write posts on their facebook page, you can reply to news items or message them privately. I also don't see how length of message has any relevance, given that the answer to the same question containing 100 words as opposed to 10 - will still be the same answer.

Do explain.

LXFlyer

Tragedy wrote: »

Facebook has almost 4x as many users in Ireland as Twitter - is there also someone manning the Facebook page?

Oh I see. That makes sense, mandate that the social media service with the least amount of users be the one that must be manned and used for customer service.

Tragedy wrote: »

How?

https://www.facebook.com/DublinBusNews
https://twitter.com/dublinbusnews

On both you see the latest news, on both you can message Dublin Bus. The only difference is layout. One reaches ~2.4m Irish People, one reaches 700,000.

Tragedy wrote: »

Huh? You can't write posts on their facebook page, you can reply to news items or message them privately. I also don't see how length of message has any relevance, given that the answer to the same question containing 100 words as opposed to 10 - will still be the same answer.

Do explain.

If you look across the transport industry (bus, train and airlines), both here and in the UK, and internationally, Twitter is very much coming to the fore in terms of being the prime method of getting news out quickly to customers.

In the event of individual buses/trains breaking down, it's easier to use as a means of communicating with customers.

There's still a place for Facebook, and I don't see it diminishing, but being honest the age profile for the two is changing - Facebook tends to appeal to older users, while younger people prefer Twitter.

At the end of the day the fact that there is a requirement for the company to provide social media responses has to be a good thing for customers.

Stevek101

Sure you only have to briefly look at the Facebook page to see its full of ****e. s8080 would have a field day. Least the twitter page is useful.

AngryLips

s8080 wrote: »

what idiot in the NTA came up with the twitter requirement.
the two companies are broke and will now have to have someone man a twitter account 24/7/364.
how many people would that need in each company? 4 or 5, sounds like money well spent

do private operators have the same requirements?
or are DB/BE being held to a higher standard

DB and IE already have a Twitter account and it's actually really handy.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

If you look across the transport industry (bus, train and airlines), both here and in the UK, and internationally, Twitter is very much coming to the fore in terms of being the prime method of getting news out quickly to customers.

The broadband/telecom industry too.

I know when my UPC or Tesco Mobile goes down, I check Twitter first.

As for it requiring more staff, it really shouldn't. I would assume a company the size of DB/BE/IR have a full time customer support staff who handle customer phone calls and email. Nowadays customer support staff would also be expected to handle social media as part of their regular duties.

In fact it can often reduce the customer support costs. Take UPC for example, if it goes down, I check twitter and see that they already know it is down in my area and currently have engineers looking into it and I thus don't bother to call them to report the fault. If enough people do the same, then you can actually reduce the number of call center staff.

The same should be true for DB/BE/IR informing customers about train breakdowns, etc.

Of course that is assuming the unions don't get involved and require a new position be created at 60k+ or something ridiculous like that!

Grandeeod

Social media is social media. You update across all platforms equally. Its very simple. I fail to see why IE cannot update their web site and social media circles in real time and achieve some cohesion.

Jamie2k9

Some of the detail in these contracts is really stupid. Are the NTA trying to justify their existence. Enforcement will be the biggest issue and the cost of proper enforcement will outweigh the fines.

The NTA would be better off to stop this rubbish and stop Irish Rail running rings around them instead. If these details were applied to them IE would be bust within a week if not days!

Tragedy

Stevek101 wrote: »

Sure you only have to briefly look at the Facebook page to see its full of ****e. s8080 would have a field day. Least the twitter page is useful.

Huh? I fail to see any service information missing from the facebook page that is present on the twitter page. Quite the opposite, the twitter page seems to have 15 retweets for every original tweet - which would seem to quite emphatically disprove your assertion.

If you look across the transport industry (bus, train and airlines), both here and in the UK, and internationally, Twitter is very much coming to the fore in terms of being the prime method of getting news out quickly to customers.

Yes. The question is why?

In the event of individual buses/trains breaking down, it's easier to use as a means of communicating with customers.

No-one has yet to explain how, and you're the third person to essentially state that as if it's a truism.

There's still a place for Facebook, and I don't see it diminishing, but being honest the age profile for the two is changing - Facebook tends to appeal to older users, while younger people prefer Twitter.

35% of 18-29 year old's in the US use twitter. By comparison, 89% of 18-29 year old's use Facebook. The research is american because the Pew research center is the only institution to perform rigorous statistical analysis - but I don't know of any Irish factors to massively distort that.

At the end of the day the fact that there is a requirement for the company to provide social media responses has to be a good thing for customers.

Not if it's a social media platform that the vast majority of Dublin Bus customers do not use, nor a social media platform that has been stagnating (if you read business news, you'll have heard of large stock losses following disappointing user growth figures).

It is incredibly stupid and shortsighted to have mandated Twitter above all, and a particular social media platform in general - as part of a government contract.

I do eagerly look forward to arguments as to why this isn't stupid but thus far I have yet to actually hear any.

LXFlyer

Ok - go back to the Dublinbusnews Twitter page and look at it when you click on "tweets & replies".

That's where you will see all the individual responses to queries about buses/services.

If that were Facebook, it would massively clog up the page.

Twitter allows the company to easily respond to queries quickly and in a relatively simple manner.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Some of the detail in these contracts is really stupid. Are the NTA trying to justify their existence. Enforcement will be the biggest issue and the cost of proper enforcement will outweigh the fines.

The NTA would be better off to stop this rubbish and stop Irish Rail running rings around them instead. If these details were applied to them IE would be bust within a week if not days!

Such as?

Cookie_Monster

twitter doesn't have the capacity to deliver enough information within it's character limit IMO.

also why the differential between early and late departure, why not 1 min for each? Leaving late really isn't any better.

cdebru

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

twitter doesn't have the capacity to deliver enough information within it's character limit IMO.

also why the differential between early and late departure, why not 1 min for each? Leaving late really isn't any better.

What information do you need that can't be delivered in 140 characters? It is for up to date status not for in depth inquiries.

Carawaystick

The tweet machine and the bookface yoke can be linked up, so posts on one medium are posted to the other.

Simples

cdebru

IMO the NTA should make twitter updates mandatory on all missed departures or alterations to the timetable with a brief explantion, ie traffic, accident, staff shortage, whatever the reason behind it, while it is annoying when a bus doesn't show what is infuriating is not knowing, will it show is it just running late should you make other arrangements if you jump in a taxi will it appear around the corner, why didn't it show ? There really is no excuse for not giving this information also, it makes the NTA job even easier as everyone is a potential NTA inspector, who can report a missing bus that isn't reported on twitter, the other major advantage is that it would put into the public domain patterns does the 11am 77a ever operate or is there a pattern that it only operates 1 day a week and it is stuck in traffic most days, in which case why hasn't the timetable been adjusted?

s8080

cdebru wrote: »

the other major advantage is that it would put into the public domain patterns does the 11am 77a ever operate or is there a pattern that it only operates 1 day a week and it is stuck in traffic most days, in which case why hasn't the timetable been adjusted?

every driver can tell you there are certain duty's where journeys will not run every single week.
the time given to make the journey is insufficient. week in week out the same results without fail.
yet nothing is done.
NTA at fault here, not dublin bus.
dublin bus try to operate a schedule given to them by the NTA.

why no new time tables?
before the ill informed get in with "the unions fault" i can tell you its not.

who benefits from a bus not in service?

StreetLight

So, can any crackpot with a grudge against a bus driver, or Dublin Bus in general complain on Twitter that the bus driver wasn't polite and have their story accepted?

s8080

was told this morning the DB/BE twitter accounts are maintained by a outside contractor.
who has these contracts?
how much are they worth?
now the twitter activity is to be increased under NTA orders, it will mean more money for these operators. is this money well spent?

LXFlyer

s8080 wrote: »

every driver can tell you there are certain duty's where journeys will not run every single week.
the time given to make the journey is insufficient. week in week out the same results without fail.
yet nothing is done.
NTA at fault here, not dublin bus.
dublin bus try to operate a schedule given to them by the NTA.

why no new time tables?
before the ill informed get in with "the unions fault" i can tell you its not.

who benefits from a bus not in service?

The NTA specify the service frequency.


Dublin Bus schedulers draw up the rosters - if they don't give enough running time that's their fault. It's up to the operator to put the resources in.

LXFlyer

StreetLight wrote: »

So, can any crackpot with a grudge against a bus driver, or Dublin Bus in general complain on Twitter that the bus driver wasn't polite and have their story accepted?

No - they have a formal complaints process - they advise people to email customercomment@dublinbus.ie and it's investigated from there.

s8080

StreetLight wrote: »

So, can any crackpot with a grudge against a bus driver, or Dublin Bus in general complain on Twitter that the bus driver wasn't polite and have their story accepted?

get with the program.
the passengers are always polite and in the right.
the drivers are conniving layabouts out to get the passengers.

s8080

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA specify the service frequency.


Dublin Bus schedulers draw up the rosters - if they don't give enough running time that's their fault. It's up to the operator to put the resources in.

how can dublin bus deliver the service required by the NTA, when the NTA know dublin bus dont have the resources to do so.

all time table must be approved by the NTA before they come into service.
so why do they approve a time table when all day the running time is 60 minutes, but a hand full of journeys are only given 45 minutes, knowing full well the bus wont be on time and will be taken out of service to try get back on time?
who benefits from this?

Graham

s8080 wrote: »

was told this morning the DB/BE twitter accounts are maintained by a outside contractor.

Source?

s8080 wrote: »

who has these contracts?

Did you ask your source?

s8080 wrote: »

how much are they worth?

Assuming your source is correct you may be able to submit an FOI request to find out.

s8080 wrote: »

now the twitter activity is to be increased under NTA orders, it will mean more money for these operators. is this money well spent?

Yes, for the reasons stated earlier in the thread around communicating with passengers/customers.

LXFlyer

s8080 wrote: »

how can dublin bus deliver the service required by the NTA, when the NTA know dublin bus dont have the resources to do so.

all time table must be approved by the NTA before they come into service.
so why do they approve a time table when all day the running time is 60 minutes, but a hand full of journeys are only given 45 minutes, knowing full well the bus wont be on time and will be taken out of service to try get back on time?
who benefits from this?

Virtually all of the current timetables date from the Network Direct process, which frankly was when the NTA was in its infancy. At that stage they were pretty much rubber stamping the schedules that DB came up with.

This effort to blame the NTA for this is rather laughable. The 11 and 14 have had running time problems from the outset of the new schedules over three years ago. That is for Dublin Bus to resolve, or tell the NTA that they can't deliver the schedule.

This isn't exactly a new problem - it's always taken DB ages to resolve running time issues and produce a new drivers' bill which then goes through version after version until everyone's happy.

It is down to BOTH organisations to get this resolved.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Are the NTA trying to justify their existence.

good question

end of the road

thomasj wrote: »

100 euro fine if bus leaves terminus 1 minute early or 5 minutes later

i hope they don't pay it. things can get delayed. more important things to be spending money on such as service improvements rather then pointless fines to a quango

VWD8

Fines for operators = Higher Fares for passengers.

bk

VWD8 wrote: »

Fines for operators = Higher Fares for passengers.

As the NTA also sets fares, not necessarily.

It could also mean less profit for the company or cost cutting.

It can also mean a better, more reliable service for customers.

s8080

lxflyer wrote: »

Virtually all of the current timetables date from the Network Direct process, which frankly was when the NTA was in its infancy. At that stage they were pretty much rubber stamping the schedules that DB came up with.

This effort to blame the NTA for this is rather laughable. The 11 and 14 have had running time problems from the outset of the new schedules over three years ago. That is for Dublin Bus to resolve, or tell the NTA that they can't deliver the schedule.

This isn't exactly a new problem - it's always taken DB ages to resolve running time issues and produce a new drivers' bill which then goes through version after version until everyone's happy.

It is down to BOTH organisations to get this resolved.

your attempt to portray yourself as someone with insider knowledge of how dublin bus works is rather laughable.

within days of the 11 and 14 timetables everyone knew they where fantasy ,here is what happened next, a peek behind the curtain into how things work

drivers approach unions, “ time table is a mess, cannot be done in time given”
unions approach Dublin Bus “time table not working, we need a new one”
Dublin Bus approach NTA “the time table is not working, we need to redo a new more realistic one”
NTA respond “we will get back to you”

now here we are 3 years later and nothing has changed, unions and dublin bus are on to NTA on a regular basis, no joy.
this scenario is played out on routes city wide.

why are the NTA dragging their feet on new time tables?
who benefits?

s8080

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Are the NTA trying to justify their existence.

i think the question is what does the department of transport do?

are the NTA like the HSE , just a buffer to protect the government department who should be doing the job

dfx-

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Some of the detail in these contracts is really stupid. Are the NTA trying to justify their existence. Enforcement will be the biggest issue and the cost of proper enforcement will outweigh the fines.

Losing the run of themselves it would seem.

13s and 16s and 145s choked up by useless NTA buses not fit for the routes intended, reducing fleet capacity and they're looking at Twitter and Facebook fines.

Good to know they have the finger on the pulse.

It would seem the solution to this is like Ryanair, extend the running time but always appear on time to remove the possibility of fines. Have buses sitting at the terminus for 20 minutes longer of no use to anyone, but no fines. Go NTA!

cdebru

s8080 wrote: »

what idiot in the NTA came up with the twitter requirement.
the two companies are broke and will now have to have someone man a twitter account 24/7/364.
how many people would that need in each company? 4 or 5, sounds like money well spent

do private operators have the same requirements?
or are DB/BE being held to a higher standard

Twitter requirement is only customer care center hours, basically head office hours.

cdebru

dfx- wrote: »

Losing the run of themselves it would seem.

13s and 16s and 145s choked up by useless NTA buses not fit for the routes intended, reducing fleet capacity and they're looking at Twitter and Facebook fines.

Good to know they have the finger on the pulse.

It would seem the solution to this is like Ryanair, extend the running time but always appear on time to remove the possibility of fines. Have buses sitting at the terminus for 20 minutes longer of no use to anyone, but no fines. Go NTA!

The 1 minute early 5 minutes late fine is for first and last buses from each termini. That's it.

No big deal, DB should be able to have first and last departures on time.

dfx-

Last 68 tonight hasn't a hope of being on time.

Last 122/83 northbound will struggle. Others will definitely make it like the last 13 that has 45 minutes to get to the city from Harristown, double the time it takes the previous journey. Given ridiculously long journey times, they'll all make it.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

Losing the run of themselves it would seem.

13s and 16s and 145s choked up by useless NTA buses not fit for the routes intended, reducing fleet capacity and they're looking at Twitter and Facebook fines.

Good to know they have the finger on the pulse.

It would seem the solution to this is like Ryanair, extend the running time but always appear on time to remove the possibility of fines. Have buses sitting at the terminus for 20 minutes longer of no use to anyone, but no fines. Go NTA!

Actually, with the exception of the 16 (which needs luggage racks), I would say that the busy cross-city routes are exactly where the dual door buses ought to be, facilitating shorter dwell times.

I would prefer a reliable bus service, with realistic running times, than one that falls apart due to running times being far too tight. You have to have recovery time built into any schedule.

cdebru

dfx- wrote: »

Last 68 tonight hasn't a hope of being on time.

Last 122/83 northbound will struggle. Others will definitely make it like the last 13 that has 45 minutes to get to the city from Harristown, double the time it takes the previous journey. Given ridiculously long journey times, they'll all make it.

2 things if you can predict that the 68 won't be on time at this stage then why hasn't the timetable been fixed? It is not a ridiculously long journey time it is a journey time adequate to complete the journey. The ridiculous thing is continuing to advertise departure times that can't be met ?
Second the contract states from terminus, so cross city routes would be timed on their departure from their terminus not a city center timing point which is not a terminus presumably, there is a section on timings points but it is as of yet blank.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Actually, with the exception of the 16 (which needs luggage racks), I would say that the busy cross-city routes are exactly where the dual door buses ought to be, facilitating shorter dwell times.

I would prefer a reliable bus service, with realistic running times, than one that falls apart due to running times being far too tight. You have to have recovery time built into any schedule.

I agree but there in lies a problem in that the NTA is responsible for service levels, ie how many departures per hour and funding same and punishing for not meeting standards it may be setting that are based on political motives rather than what can actually be provided. IE pretending that a service every 10 minutes is possible, but only giving resources for 5 departures an hour and trying to squeeze running times to meet the 6 and then punishing the operator for not meeting the 6.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

I agree but there in lies a problem in that the NTA is responsible for service levels, ie how many departures per hour and funding same and punishing for not meeting standards it may be setting that are based on political motives rather than what can actually be provided. IE pretending that a service every 10 minutes is possible, but only giving resources for 5 departures an hour and trying to squeeze running times to meet the 6 and then punishing the operator for not meeting the 6.

With the new contracts I cannot really see a situation where that will perpetuate - no operator is going to agree to operate a service that they are going to get penalised from day 1 on.

There's going to be changes in the way the system operates from what I'm reading of all of this.

With the route changes in January, there are going to be a raft of new schedules coming in. Hopefully the ongoing reliability issues will be addressed in them.