systematic russian doping reported

clear thinking

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/russia-accused-of-doping-cover-up-in-athletics-1.2024797?page=2

no real surprise, world athletics champs and then sochi and the need for good 'home' performances.

Chivito550

I genuinely believed that Russia was turning a corner from it's horrendous doping past, given they were undertaking so many tests. But maybe these tests were just done to stop their athletes getting caught later on, like what the USA did before Seoul 88.

Maybe I'm naive, but I still can't imagine that 99% of all their athletes are doping. That seems just too high. There's bound to have been plenty of talented athletes who have come out of such a big country, who didn't want to go down the doping road. Although if it was forced upon them then that explains things. But this is not the USSR anymore. While Russia has it's controversial laws, from my experience there, it's a pretty free place these days, so I don't believe that athletes would be forced to dope.

I've never liked Savinova.

Itziger

Chivito550 wrote: »

I genuinely believed that Russia was turning a corner from it's horrendous doping past, given they were undertaking so many tests. But maybe these tests were just done to stop their athletes getting caught later on, like what the USA did before Seoul 88.

Maybe I'm naive, but I still can't imagine that 99% of all their athletes are doping. That seems just too high. There's bound to have been plenty of talented athletes who have come out of such a big country, who didn't want to go down the doping road. Although if it was forced upon them then that explains things. But this is not the USSR anymore. While Russia has it's controversial laws, from my experience there, it's a pretty free place these days, so I don't believe that athletes would be forced to dope.

I've never liked Savinova.

I'm afraid about the only thing I agree with you on is the 99% figure. I'd say it's only about 80%. It's natural for us to want to believe they're clean but I've been watching cycling and athletics now for almost 40 years. I'd say there are ups and downs (East Germany in the 70's surely taking a biscuit of sorts for Athletics and Italian/Spanish cycling in the 80's and 90's for that sport) but overall the doping is massively present I reckon. It's depressing, but there you are.

Clearlier

Chivito550 wrote: »

I genuinely believed that Russia was turning a corner from it's horrendous doping past, given they were undertaking so many tests. But maybe these tests were just done to stop their athletes getting caught later on, like what the USA did before Seoul 88.

Maybe I'm naive, but I still can't imagine that 99% of all their athletes are doping. That seems just too high. There's bound to have been plenty of talented athletes who have come out of such a big country, who didn't want to go down the doping road. Although if it was forced upon them then that explains things. But this is not the USSR anymore. While Russia has it's controversial laws, from my experience there, it's a pretty free place these days, so I don't believe that athletes would be forced to dope.

I've never liked Savinova.

My suspicion levels around Russian athletes increased after the slew of positives when the biological passport came in a few years ago. I've no view on how widespread doping is in Russia but their utter dominance of middle distance female running at one stage always seemed a little unlikely.

ECOLII

The timing of this is quite interesting with the Coe v Bubka electoral head to head kicking off this week. You would have to wonder how much of an impact this may have on Bubka's campaign given his support is primarily derived from Eastern European support.

I may be reading a little too much into this however

TFBubendorfer

<mod>Before anyone forgets, just a quick reminder that doping speculation is against the rules</mod>

I just had to delete some posts. Next infringement will catch a yellow card.

clear thinking

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/09/iaaf-alleged-blind-eye-suspicious-blood-tests-briton One well know british T&F star said by German TV & the guardian amongst 150 athletes with covered up blood values used as EPO urine testing trigger. IAAF says whistleblower may not have full facts. Two other brits too and a litany of ruskies. Russian VP of iaaf accused knowing of extortion of 450k of a russian drug cheat to be allowed to compete in the 2012 olympics. Coe today says Russia may be banned by iaaf, hmm did i just read that the vp of the iaaf is russian and was aware of extortion and drug cheats, how would that work in practice? This story is going to grow and grow.

Chivito550

clear thinking wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/09/iaaf-alleged-blind-eye-suspicious-blood-tests-briton One well know british T&F star said by German TV & the guardian amongst 150 athletes with covered up blood values used as EPO urine testing trigger. IAAF says whistleblower may not have full facts. Two other brits too and a litany of ruskies. Russian VP of iaaf accused knowing of extortion of 450k of a russian drug cheat to be allowed to compete in the 2012 olympics. Coe today says Russia may be banned by iaaf, hmm did i just read that the vp of the iaaf is russian and was aware of extortion and drug cheats, how would that work in practice? This story is going to grow and grow.

Not disagreeing with any of these points. Just want to say that Sergei Bubka is not Russian. He is Ukranian, and competed for Ukraine throughout the 90s after the breakup of the Soviet Union. That sort of sh1t just really annoys me. The same people who complain that much of the world confuses us as part of the UK.

robinph

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not disagreeing with any of these points. Just want to say that Sergei Bubka is not Russian. He is Ukranian, and competed for Ukraine throughout the 90s after the breakup of the Soviet Union. That sort of sh1t just really annoys me. The same people who complain that much of the world confuses us as part of the UK.

They are not referring to Bubka in the article. It's someone else who is Russian, the IAAF treasurer and also president of Russian Athletics.

As long as Sepp Blatters name doesn't come up anywhere in this.

Chivito550

robinph wrote: »

They are not referring to Bubka in the article. It's someone else who is Russian, the IAAF treasurer and also president of Russian Athletics.

As long as Sepp Blatters name doesn't come up anywhere in this.

Well he did say vice-president, hence my reply.

Pherekydes

Here's the quote from the article:

The IAAF treasurer and Russian Athletics Federation president, Valentin Balakhnichev, was also said to be aware a Russian official extorted €450,000 from Liliya Shobukhova, the London Marathon winner in 2011, to allow her to compete at the 2012 Olympic Games – yet did nothing.

The thing to remember here is that Seb Coe is in the running for the IAAF presidency. Much of the noise about corruption is his. Funnily enough, he backed Qatar for the World Championships in 2019.

Itziger

I think there's two things happening here. Lots of politicking by Seb and lots of corruption/doping by the Russkies.

Just cos the first one is happening, doesn't mean the second one isn't. Unfortunately.

Pherekydes

Unfortunately, the Russians don't have a monopoly on doping or corruption.

Netwerk Errer

The number of suspicious values has gone up again. 220+ athletes have shown suspicious blood values now. This includes 3 2012 Olympic gold winners, double figures in OG winners in total, multiple marathon winners, current and ex-world record holders.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/11285428/Revealed-how-Olympic-champions-three-Britons-and-39-countries-have-been-dragged-into-doping-scandal.html

TFBubendorfer

Interesting graphic here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/11285757/Athletics-doping-scandal-where-the-suspected-athletes-come-from.html

ECOLII

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

The number of suspicious values has gone up again. 220+ athletes have shown suspicious blood values now. This includes 3 2012 Olympic gold winners, double figures in OG winners in total, multiple marathon winners, current and ex-world record holders.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/11285428/Revealed-how-Olympic-champions-three-Britons-and-39-countries-have-been-dragged-into-doping-scandal.html

Single point blood values is a bit pointless as it undermines the point for the biological passporting.

Sensationalist journalism that will yield no benefits

- No athlete's will be banned on a single blood value
- Athletics reputation as a sport will be further tarnished
- Will undermine the validity of blood doping

I think the biological passport is moving in the right direction in a very long standing battle against doping but this sort of witch hunt is not going to do anything in terms of catching dopers and is actually a more negative thing for the sport overall personally

Clearlier

ECOLII wrote: »

Single point blood values is a bit pointless as it undermines the point for the biological passporting.

Sensationalist journalism that will yield no benefits

- No athlete's will be banned on a single blood value
- Athletics reputation as a sport will be further tarnished
- Will undermine the validity of blood doping

I think the biological passport is moving in the right direction in a very long standing battle against doping but this sort of witch hunt is not going to do anything in terms of catching dopers and is actually a more negative thing for the sport overall personally

Ecoli hits the nail on the head again. The most concerning thing was almost mentioned as an aside in the report (which leaves me wondering how accurate it is) which is that having identified athletes who might have been doping the information wasn't followed up with targeted testing. If that's true then that's terrible.

The biological passport has been a huge step forward in the fight against doping and had already picked up an awful lot Russians, not everyone I'm sure but quite a few.

Netwerk Errer

Clearlier wrote: »

Ecoli hits the nail on the head again. The most concerning thing was almost mentioned as an aside in the report (which leaves me wondering how accurate it is) which is that having identified athletes who might have been doping the information wasn't followed up with targeted testing. If that's true then that's terrible.

The biological passport has been a huge step forward in the fight against doping and had already picked up an awful lot Russians, not everyone I'm sure but quite a few.

It was a side note because it's been known for nearly a week now that suspicious samples were not followed up. Officials have already stepped down pending investigation. This story merely points out that 75 more cases were found to have suspicious blood readings.

With regards the biological passport. It's pretty useless if the governing bodies cover-up readings or don't follow them up. Alot of these suspicious values come from 2006-2008 which was before the introduction of the BP, some dating back to 2001.

Netwerk Errer

ECOLII wrote: »

Single point blood values is a bit pointless as it undermines the point for the biological passporting.

Sensationalist journalism that will yield no benefits

- No athlete's will be banned on a single blood value
- Athletics reputation as a sport will be further tarnished
- Will undermine the validity of blood doping

I think the biological passport is moving in the right direction in a very long standing battle against doping but this sort of witch hunt is not going to do anything in terms of catching dopers and is actually a more negative thing for the sport overall personally

There not single point blood values though. Some athletes have had multiple abnormal readings in that period.

True, no athlete will get a ban from this alone but couldn't these samples be retrospectively tested?

I don't agree with your tarnishing the sport point. If all these revelations lead to better testing procedures in the future because of media pressure, it's a good thing. I'm tired of hearing comments about about doping accusations damaging the sport. I've been a huge cycling fan all my life and that is the auto response to a doping question.

These questions need to be asked. It's not the questions and speculation that tarnish a sport, it's the widespread doping that damage's it.

Lets all hope this doesn't turn out like the festina affair where promises are made after but no hard action is taking to protect the sport in future.

ECOLII

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

There not single point blood values though. Some athletes have had multiple abnormal readings in that period.

True, no athlete will get a ban from this alone but couldn't these samples be retrospectively tested?

I don't agree with your tarnishing the sport point. If all these revelations lead to better testing procedures in the future because of media pressure, it's a good thing. I'm tired of hearing comments about about doping accusations damaging the sport. I've been a huge cycling fan all my life and that is the auto response to a doping question.

These questions need to be asked. It's not the questions and speculation that tarnish a sport, it's the widespread doping that damage's it.

Lets all hope this doesn't turn out like the festina affair where promises are made after but no hard action is taking to protect the sport in future.

Multiple readings could mean that a value went from Suspicion red to Suspicion orange though and though the whistle blower "did not hear" of target testing does not mean that many of these athletes weren't tested in this period (again this is at the limitations of the testing which is why biological passports were brought in)

I am not saying doping accusations damage the sport what I am saying is that unless bans result from the passports readings as opposed to a report on isolated markers out of context of the collective data it undermines the very principles of the passport idea.

The general public won't differentiate between 225 anomalies and 225 doping fails and as a result even though some will be genuine discrepancies it lends to the idea that they are all on it and IAAF/WADA are not doing anything about it. Essentially in the eyes of the public it will be a Festina affair unless there is a match up between figures in these articles and figures of bans.

Not to mention that the reason's names won't be named is the fact that these figures aren't comprehensive data to convict for doping and using them as such will lead to legal precedence of blood passport cases being lost on appeal.

I think the most positive benefits from this would be to focus on the corruption angle as I think the doping aspect and corruption are separate issues to a point in this incidence. Undermining the blood passport procedure itself without any possibility of catching and banning legitimate drug cheats is a step in the wrong direction.

Clearlier

Steve Magness's thoughts

Itziger

The Magness post is fairly interesting but I was disappointed with this, "Leading the way are Russia with 53 and Kenya with 25. There are numerous other countries in the double digits that also need to be looked at, some which have traditionally had a more “clean” image."

So, if they're traditionally clean naming them would be informative, no?

Pherekydes

Itziger wrote: »

So, if they're traditionally clean naming them would be informative, no?

They're named in the graphic mentioned in post #15.

Itziger

Thanks for that. No surprises in the other double figures though!

<snip>

Netwerk Errer

ECOLII wrote: »

Multiple readings could mean that a value went from Suspicion red to Suspicion orange though and though the whistle blower "did not hear" of target testing does not mean that many of these athletes weren't tested in this period (again this is at the limitations of the testing which is why biological passports were brought in)

I am not saying doping accusations damage the sport what I am saying is that unless bans result from the passports readings as opposed to a report on isolated markers out of context of the collective data it undermines the very principles of the passport idea.

The general public won't differentiate between 225 anomalies and 225 doping fails and as a result even though some will be genuine discrepancies it lends to the idea that they are all on it and IAAF/WADA are not doing anything about it. Essentially in the eyes of the public it will be a Festina affair unless there is a match up between figures in these articles and figures of bans.

Not to mention that the reason's names won't be named is the fact that these figures aren't comprehensive data to convict for doping and using them as such will lead to legal precedence of blood passport cases being lost on appeal.

I think the most positive benefits from this would be to focus on the corruption angle as I think the doping aspect and corruption are separate issues to a point in this incidence. Undermining the blood passport procedure itself without any possibility of catching and banning legitimate drug cheats is a step in the wrong direction.

I agree with a lot of your points ecoli but I still think these revelations are a good thing for the sport. There's innocent people on that list and for that reason, I hope the names are not released but 225 abnormal readings out over 2000 tests does hint at how endemic doping culture is in athletics even if all of them are not doping and I don't think that can be brushed aside.

It would be foolish to look at all 225 athletes as dopers but it would also be foolish to think that because no bans were issued, these figures don't highlight a problem with doping pre-BP because they do. A 10% error of margin doesn't come from anomalies. There will be anomalies but nowhere near in the region of 200+ out of just over 2000 tests. That's the important issue for me in these statistics, It shows that doping was widespread before the introduction of the BP. In my experience as a cycling fan, only the foolish athletes will ever even show blood abnormalities so you have to think of all the athletes who doped during that period and didn't even show any suspicious values because they were smart.

These numbers are not proof of anything but if you read between the lines, they are shocking. I don't think these results undermine the BP because they were released to show the level of corruption and cheating in the sport before the BP and nothing will come of them in terms of bans. At least, I hope people see it that way.

I'm not looking at this in terms of banning athletes from that period but in what can be done in future to protect the sport. it puts tremendous pressure on the IAAF and WADA to act. They have a opportunity just like the UCI had after festina, Do they brush the corruption and obvious doping under the carpet or do they clean house and let the heads roll?

The festina affair wasn't about positive tests either but it showed evidence of widespread doping in cycling and could have heralded a new dawn in cycling had the UCI acted. They didn't and things only further spiralled out of control.

This may not be proof of any one athlete doping but it is strong evidence of a sick sport. Any pressure on the IAAF and WADA to make this sport cleaner and fairer and make them take a good look at themselves in the mirror is good in my book.

Pherekydes

Itziger wrote: »

Thanks for that. No surprises in the other double figures though!

<snip>

Nothing to see here. Move along now.

PVincent

According to the Irish times tonight , another two Kenyan women failed and now banned, ( can't link the article )

Ososlo

PVincent wrote: »

According to the Irish times tonight , another two Kenyan women failed and now banned, ( can't link the article )

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/two-more-kenyan-athletes-fail-drugs-tests-1.2038746

fishfoodie

ECOLII wrote: »

Single point blood values is a bit pointless as it undermines the point for the biological passporting.

Sorry but this is a fallacy that is being regurgitated by a number of sides for obvious reasons.

A single point blood test, may be pointless. But then again, it may not.

If, lets say; a population has a mean of 100, & a std dev of 5, then assuming you're talking about a normal distribution, you can expect 99.9997% of the population to have readings between 85 & 115.

So if you get an athlete with a reading of 150, they're either an alien, or they're doping, because they sure as hell ain't 'normal' .

Now we don't know who the athletes are, or what their blood values are, but we know that they were sufficiently off kilter that they merited Red flags, & the then the powers that be decided to ignore this recommendation. The people who do drug testing day in, & day out said these single point values were way out of wack, & others who've seen them are saying the same; its a bit rich for those who haven't seen them to contradict that !

Pherekydes

fishfoodie wrote: »

Sorry but this is a fallacy that is being regurgitated by a number of sides for obvious reasons.

A single point blood test, may be pointless. But then again, it may not.

If, lets say; a population has a mean of 100, & a std dev of 5, then assuming you're talking about a normal distribution, you can expect 99.9997% of the population to have readings between 85 & 115.

99.7%, no? The 68-95-99.7 rule.

So if you get an athlete with a reading of 150, they're either an alien, or they're doping, because they sure as hell ain't 'normal' .

This assumption is itself a fallacy. A well known one called the prosecutor's fallacy.

Now we don't know who the athletes are, or what their blood values are, but we know that they were sufficiently off kilter that they merited Red flags, & the then the powers that be decided to ignore this recommendation. The people who do drug testing day in, & day out said these single point values were way out of wack, & others who've seen them are saying the same; its a bit rich for those who haven't seen them to contradict that !

The whole reason for the multi-point blood passport is to guard against prosecutor's fallacy.

Netwerk Errer

The German documentary makers are prepared to make another documentary part if the IAAF keep turning a blind eye after more "whistleblowers" have come forward since the release of the documentary.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/12/russia-doping-claims-documentary-maker-new-film

Netwerk Errer

Apologies for the two posts, I'm on my phone and my tabs are acting up.

The documentary makers also claim that the evidence was far more comprehensive than the IAAF has been letting on regarding the single point blood values.

The reference to the list has prompted a war of words between the IAAF and the makers of the documentary. The governing body said that single blood values could prove nothing and risked sparking a witch hunt against athletes who had done no wrong. The German documentary makers responded that they had been careful not to name anyone on the list and that the information provided was far more comprehensive, and more damning, than the IAAF had admitted.

youngrun

clear thinking wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/russia-accused-of-doping-cover-up-in-athletics-1.2024797?page=2

no real surprise, world athletics champs and then sochi and the need for good 'home' performances.

No real surprise either Russia is getting mud thrown at on all fronts for not toeing the US line in politics, looks to me like a major smear campaign, very easy pay off a whistleblower . Innocent until proven guilty ? unless you are Russian or one of those type of countries eh. Do we believe everything we read in the press?

Clearlier

youngrun wrote: »

No real surprise either Russia is getting mud thrown at on all fronts for not toeing the US line in politics, looks to me like a major smear campaign, very easy pay off a whistleblower . Innocent until proven guilty ? unless you are Russian or one of those type of countries eh. Do we believe everything we read in the press?

There's a bit too much conspiracy theory going on there for me! Russia has had a large number of positives since the introduction of the biological passport. It has also had an implausible number of female middle distance runners in the top 10 each year. Most of the world don't really care about athletics other than in the olympics every 4 years. There are many other more effective ways with which to smear Russia.

Netwerk Errer

youngrun wrote: »

No real surprise either Russia is getting mud thrown at on all fronts for not toeing the US line in politics, looks to me like a major smear campaign, very easy pay off a whistleblower . Innocent until proven guilty ? unless you are Russian or one of those type of countries eh. Do we believe everything we read in the press?

No offence but that is straight up ridiculous. You do realise that the majority of these whistleblowers were Russian and included high ranking officials and athletes involved in Russian athletics. Are you saying that Russia launched a smear campaign on itself?

youngrun

Conspiracy theory = any opinion that doesn't match the Western media line . Doesn't mean its not a valid proposition. We are still searching for WMDs in Iraq I hear. Kenya and Ethiopia and Jamaica also as you say have implausible numbers in top ten of events - Anyone could do a TV show with accusations flying at these countries also.

@network error -Its very easy pay off disgruntled athletes or officials. Everyone has a price. Look at Qatar world cup . Whats a couple of 100k to a big media organisation or its backers. Very suspect such a documentary is out at the same time the likes of the Sunday Times, BBC etc are firing every kind of mud at Russia possible across the political and economic spectrum. ditto no offence intended just my view - crazy perhaps but who knows?!

All I would say is where is the proof of systematic doping, how many positives and how many athletes ? Will the officials and Athletes concerned testify in court or at a WADA hearing ? Will scientific sampling/analysis of tests/samples back up the allegations that's all they are now.
And Ok Russia has had many positives does that mean it has a dope problem or a good testing system or both ? Or has it cleaned up its act as a result ? Lots of Kenyan positives also recently , do they have systematic doping also ?

So many questions , all I am saying is I don't believe what I hear without proof , people paid enough will say anything.

robinph

fishfoodie wrote: »

...you can expect 99.9997% of the population to have readings between 85 & 115.

I would already fail doping tests for several prescription items, but was interested to see that one of the blood tests they listed in that report was one I was tested for a year or so ago also. I was outside the range the hospital wanted to see, and was outside the range that was quoted in that article for the athletes. Another test a month later though and all was back in range and the odd result was easily explainable due to other factors. One result of the tests they were mentioning in the article warrants further investigation, it does not make the athlete guilty.

The problem is that these results for the athletes have not been followed up, not that the results exist.

Clearlier

youngrun wrote: »

Conspiracy theory = any opinion that doesn't match the Western media line . Doesn't mean its not a valid proposition. We are still searching for WMDs in Iraq I hear. Kenya and Ethiopia and Jamaica also as you say have implausible numbers in top ten of events - Anyone could do a TV show with accusations flying at these countries also.

@network error -Its very easy pay off disgruntled athletes or officials. Everyone has a price. Look at Qatar world cup . Whats a couple of 100k to a big media organisation or its backers. Very suspect such a documentary is out at the same time the likes of the Sunday Times, BBC etc are firing every kind of mud at Russia possible across the political and economic spectrum. ditto no offence intended just my view - crazy perhaps but who knows?!

All I would say is where is the proof of systematic doping, how many positives and how many athletes ? Will the officials and Athletes concerned testify in court or at a WADA hearing ? Will scientific sampling/analysis of tests/samples back up the allegations that's all they are now.
And Ok Russia has had many positives does that mean it has a dope problem or a good testing system or both ? Or has it cleaned up its act as a result ? Lots of Kenyan positives also recently , do they have systematic doping also ?

So many questions , all I am saying is I don't believe what I hear without proof , people paid enough will say anything.

The definition of conspiracy theory is a little broader than you think. WMD? The US and the UK have been vilified for lying to the public about the likelihood of their existence. If you want a claim to have substance it has to be falsifiable

As it happens there are plausible reasons for the Jamaicans, Kenyan's and Ethiopians to be at the top of the world in their respective areas. I recommend reading The Sports Gene by David Epstein to get some insight as to why. That said the very same documentary team are the ones who raised questions about the Kenyans (similar method but a different outcome in that they found suppliers of doping products who claimed to supply lots of athletes but no evidence of systematised doping as they saw in Russia) and it's at least partly due to that that there has been an increased focus on Kenya and an increased volume of positive tests. The sport desperately needs a lab that can conduct testing in Iten though. Until that's in place I understand that it's a little too easy for athletes training there (not just Kenyan's) to get away with doping as the logistics of transporting a sample to an accredited lab are very challenging. You'll also notice that several Jamaican sprinters tested positive in the past couple of years.

This wasn't some random TV show put together by the light entertainment department of a struggling channel looking for a ratings boost. These guys are serious about what they do. That they found evidence of doping in quite different ways in Kenya and Russia strengthens their case IMO as it's not just a situation of seeing the same thing everywhere.

Arguing some kind of conspiracy theory doesn't hold any water with me. It doesn't address the issues raised, the questions asked, the evidence supplied. Do you think that there's a conspiracy at work with the Kenyan's too? What about the Jamaican's, is that not the work of jealous American's?

Netwerk Errer

robinph wrote: »

I would already fail doping tests for several prescription items, but was interested to see that one of the blood tests they listed in that report was one I was tested for a year or so ago also. I was outside the range the hospital wanted to see, and was outside the range that was quoted in that article for the athletes. Another test a month later though and all was back in range and the odd result was easily explainable due to other factors. One result of the tests they were mentioning in the article warrants further investigation, it does not make the athlete guilty.

The problem is that these results for the athletes have not been followed up, not that the results exist.

True and I agree that these results warraned further investigation but the sheer volume of abnormalities out of such a small test group is indicative of a problem. We're talking about 10% of the test group. You also say that you would fail because of prescription medication, you have to declare to the authorities that you are on that medication and if it has any performance or blood boosting ability, you will not be allowed to compete or you will have to get a Therapeutic Use Exemption.

Just because people weren't found guilty doesn't mean that these results aren't shocking.

Abnormal- deviating from what is normal or expected.

How can 10% of the athletes show abnormal readings?

robinph

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

How can 10% of the athletes show abnormal readings?

I would also not expect normal population variations to apply in the same ratios to these people. They are already out of the ordinary just by getting to performing at that level of their sport.

Netwerk Errer

robinph wrote: »

I would also not expect normal population variations to apply in the same ratios to these people. They are already out of the ordinary just by getting to performing at that level of their sport.

That is not true. The tests were created for athletes as a limit for what is physiologically possible for all humans without doping. It's like in cycling, watts/kg at FTP and absolute power outputs can show that an athlete is doping because of known physiological limits of humans. Blood values are the same, there are limits to what's humanly possible without doping and they are the limits that were used.

Athletes may glide closer to these limits than the general population but they are still bound to the limits like everyone else. They are still the same species.

As I said earlier, these results are not about individuals but about athletics as a whole.

robinph

I'm not questioning the limits, I'm questioning that testing the top 0.1% of the population you are going to find a higher percentage within that 0.1% with values approaching those limits than you would amongst the rest of us. So 10% of them having results that need following up isn't strange as they are not a representative set of humanity as a whole.

Netwerk Errer

robinph wrote: »

I'm not questioning the limits, I'm questioning that testing the top 0.1% of the population you are going to find a higher percentage within that 0.1% with values approaching those limits than you would amongst the rest of us. So 10% of them having results that need following up isn't strange as they are not a representative set of humanity as a whole.

It doesn't matter how close someone is to the limit, the limit is the limit and you have to be over that physiological threshold pre-BP to raise a flag whether it be related to illness or doping. 225 athletes were found to have had blood values outside the normal values. I'm not saying they were all doping but that is a huge number of abnormalities for 2000 athletes.

I understand where your coming from regarding the IAAF not following up with targeted testing as it's a massive issue but doping is just as big.

Edit: There is going to be a margin of error when it comes to testing but a 10% margin of error is nowhere near likely.

Netwerk Errer

Just to add that not all athletes will be in the top 1% of blood values. Athletes can compensate for poor values through a high Vo2 max, economy and lactate threshold. Take Lance Armstrong for instance, before he started doping, he had a haemocrite of 42 (not even close to the legal limit of 50) but he was still a top class athlete. Athletes values will deviate significantly too as there is more to making an athlete than blood values.

rom

Makes LA look amateur.

The full doc below with english subtitles. A must watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YlKaN3cPs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erDHCgjeHsI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJNUUyv9wI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Pw9JMBZ-s

Netwerk Errer

AK chief Isiah Kiplagat says there are more doping cases to come from Kenya in 2014. They are trying to track down 16 missing athletes involved in doping cases on top of the original 16 cases announced by the IAAF. The IAAF also wants AK to test 5 possible transgender athletes for hormones.

http://www.coastweek.com/3752-sports-10.htm

Kiplagat also mentioned over 200 cases were reported in Kenya this year, that's staggering!

Netwerk Errer

Now, this is one hell of a story regarding the Russian athletics federation and Olympic and World Racewalking champion Elena Lashmanova who was banned for 2 years for the use of the metabolic drug GW1516 last year. Suspicion was raised that Lashmanova could still be competing when photos of her were posted from a race on the 30th December 2014 while she was still banned. It now appears that there's a huge cover up by the Russian federation where photos and results were faked to cover up this race. They came out and said that the uploaded photos were from 2012 before she was caught for doping.

The problem with that statement is, some of the shoes in the photos weren't even made by then and she's wearing a different race number. There is way more evidence in the link below.

http://dunfeewalks.weebly.com/canadian-tf-blog/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-saransk-and-russia


The IAAF are now investigating the race.

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/iaaf-investigating-allegations-elena-lashmanova-competed-banned-15710/

rom

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Now, this is one hell of a story regarding the Russian athletics federation and Olympic and World Racewalking champion Elena Lashmanova who was banned for 2 years for the use of the metabolic drug GW1516 last year. Suspicion was raised that Lashmanova could still be competing when photos of her were posted from a race on the 30th December 2014 while she was still banned. It now appears that there's a huge cover up by the Russian federation where photos and results were faked to cover up this race. They came out and said that the uploaded photos were from 2012 before she was caught for doping.

The problem with that statement is, some of the shoes in the photos weren't even made by then and she's wearing a different race number. There is way more evidence in the link below.

http://dunfeewalks.weebly.com/canadian-tf-blog/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-saransk-and-russia


The IAAF are now investigating the race.

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/iaaf-investigating-allegations-elena-lashmanova-competed-banned-15710/

And 20k walk WR holder. Her ban will be doubled as a result of this only which is BS and should be a life ban. There is no I didn't know it was a competition or any crap with that. If proven then it is black and white.

youngrun

Russians are really getting the brunt of it. Very easy fake photos to whatever suits?
Have we had any concrete proof post the German documentary re doped athletes and if so where is it ?

Clearlier

I collated the information from this page around about November of last year.

I can't show it by year unfortunately as about half of the entries haven't got a date.

Edit to note that I've excluded countries with 5 or less athletes that have received doping offences to make the chart intelligible.

TFBubendorfer

youngrun wrote: »

Russians are really getting the brunt of it. Very easy fake photos to whatever suits?

Who would have faked the photos?

The Russians posted the photos, the Canadians pointed out that they must be from 2014.

So who would have faked the photos? The Canadians? No, because they were published by the Russians. The Russians? That makes even less sense!