Seperation advice for the man

Joshua5

Hi guys,

I separated from my wife around 5 years ago. We have three kiddos and have a pretty good relationship as mates now. For the tricky piece, we both have new partners but there is a difference. Mine gets on with my ex and she is hard working etc. Her new partner is a bum. It's none of my business really except he lives in the family home, the home I fully pay for and doesn't contribute at all. He doesn't work, only on occasion so even the gas and elec bills are high from him setting up home. She tells me its none of my business but I think it's unfair I pay all towards a house she lives in with her new fello. In addition to that I'm sadly resorted to living with the aul one now. So basically I've worked all my life for that house, pay for it all and this bum walks in and sets up home without paying a penny while I still work all hours god sends to pay that mortgage and have to live with my ma!

Jamaican Me Crazy

Does your ex work? You mention her OH doesn't but if she does I don't see why she is not contributing to the mortgage. The relationship between your ex and her OH is their business and I am sure she will soon get fed up of him not contributing. Let her worry about that.

Seek legal advice and try to come up with a separation / divorce agreement that is fair and reasonable. You are separated long enough now.

Joshua5

Jamaican Me Crazy wrote: »

Does your ex work? You mention her OH doesn't but if she does I don't see why she is not contributing to the mortgage. The relationship between your ex and her OH is their business and I am sure she will soon get fed up of him not contributing. Let her worry about that.

Seek legal advice and try to come up with a separation / divorce agreement that is fair and reasonable. You are separated long enough now.

She's studying as a mature student so I'm happy to foot the bill for that reason. But bringing her OH to move in I was expecting he would also contribute then but he doesn't.

Jawgap

I'd hold off on letting slip the legal beagles for the moment.

Try mediation - if things are 'matey' between you and the ex, it's worth putting in the effort to keep it that way. I'd suggest having a chat with her and raising the idea of mediation.

If she is against the idea or refuses to engage then at least if you do eventually go the legal route you'll have the advantage of being able to tell the judge you tried mediation.

Quite simply you shouldn't be paying for everything.

howamidifferent

Joshua5 wrote: »

She's studying as a mature student so I'm happy to foot the bill for that reason. But bringing her OH to move in I was expecting he would also contribute then but he doesn't.

Seeing as you & your wife are joint owners, can you not charge him rent...
If he wont pay then deduct his rent from your share of the bills..
Charge him under the rent a room scheme so you have no landlord obligations to him...and he gets no rights...

She wont be long getting it out of him...or getting rid of him...

Jawgap

howamidifferent wrote: »

Seeing as you & your wife are joint owners, can you not charge him rent...
If he wont pay then deduct his rent from your share of the bills..
Charge him under the rent a room scheme so you have no landlord obligations to him...and he gets no rights...

She wont be long getting it out of him...or getting rid of him...

He can't be charged 'rent.'

howamidifferent

Jawgap wrote: »

He can't be charged 'rent.'

Why not?

Jamaican Me Crazy

I wouldn't allow my OH to contribute to the mortgage on my house but my ex doesn't contribute either.
My OH would have paid towards bills, grocery shopping or whatever.

This is between you and your ex. Fair play to you for keeping up the mortgage while she is studying but once that is finished I assume she will try to seek employment in her chosen field and then you won't have the full burden anymore.
But this really is between you and your ex only. I know it's annoying but new partners really need to be left out of things.

Jawgap

howamidifferent wrote: »

Why not?

Because he's co-habiting as her partner presumably at her invitation.

Jamaican Me Crazy

I also agree that mediation could be a good option here if things are amicable. Try to keep them that way.

Joshua5

howamidifferent wrote: »

Why not?

I did consider this to be honest. I'm walking a tight line here, trying to keep my kids ok and her happy too. It's nothing to do with the fact she has a new guy so I'm mindful I don't want it to look like that. The issue is, there is a chap living in the house I pay for and he doesn't hand up a penny. It speaks volumes for him alone, because pride alone would have me eaten alive if I was him. If he paid his way I could easily afford to move closer to the kiddos

howamidifferent

Joshua5 wrote: »

I did consider this to be honest. I'm walking a tight line here, trying to keep my kids ok and her happy too. It's nothing to do with the fact she has a new guy so I'm mindful I don't want it to look like that. The issue is, there is a chap living in the house I pay for and he doesn't hand up a penny. It speaks volumes for him alone, because pride alone would have me eaten alive if I was him. If he paid his way I could easily afford to move closer to the kiddos

Well then if as the other poster says you cant charge him rent then perhaps a discussion with your wife about the "3" adults splitting the bills 3 ways is in order. That way, she asks him for the money...

Jawgap

BTW, OP - continue to 'pay' the mortgage.

If you do negotiate a settlement, make it plain that any contribution received towards the mortgage is not described as such - also make it clear that in the event of the house being sold the equity still divides 50:50 between you and your ex as you both, I presume, hold the house in a joint tenancy - you wouldn't want laddo getting a share, or if he does it comes from your ex's element of the equity.

If I were you (I was, once ) - I'd at least get some form of mediated agreement in writing covering the kids, property etc. Hopefully you'll remain on good terms with herself and you can stick any agreement in a drawer and forget about it, but it'll be worth having if things get awkward.

Joshua5

Jawgap wrote: »

BTW, OP - continue to 'pay' the mortgage.

If you do negotiate a settlement, make it plain that any contribution received towards the mortgage is not described as such - also make it clear that in the event of the house being sold the equity still divides 50:50 between you and your ex as you both, I presume, hold the house in a joint tenancy - you wouldn't want laddo getting a share, or if he does it comes from your ex's element of the equity.

If I were you (I was, once ) - I'd at least get some form of mediated agreement in writing covering the kids, property etc. Hopefully you'll remain on good terms with herself and you can stick any agreement in a drawer and forget about it, but it'll be worth having if things get awkward.

Things are already awkward because if he's about I'm not allowed into my own house LOL

Jawgap

Definitely mediation is your first step (and hopefully the last one).

Joshua5

Jawgap wrote: »

Definitely mediation is your first step (and hopefully the last one).

an you tell me briefly what's involved in your experience during that process? She's a mature student so I've a feeling what ever way this goes I'll get fleeced.

Jawgap

Joshua5 wrote: »

an you tell me briefly what's involved in your experience during that process? She's a mature student so I've a feeling what ever way this goes I'll get fleeced.

Ok, well first thing is to get a mediator, the Family Mediation Service would be a good starting point. Ring them up and have a chat with them and they'll explain the process in more detail.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/family_mediation_service.html

Once both you and the ex agree to mediation and communicate that to FMS they'll arrange the first session. And off it goes from there. The mediators are pretty good, in my experience. You both get to have your say, then the mediator will tease out the issues (this may take several sessions) - if they are really good you probably will feel like they're almost not there as they nudge and steer you both towards an agreement you can both live with.

Once the agreement is settled on you both get a copy. If you want you can take that to a solicitor and use it as the basis for getting a judicial separation.

The mediator will explain the ground rules from the outset, including what's appropriate in terms of language, but the two most important ones, imo, were 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' and 'don't personalise' issues.

Don't assume she'll get everything she wants - the mediator is looking for a fair and equitable agreement to emerge. Also, while it's important to be constructive, don't be too generous in your offers.

Joshua5

I'd have to know before I try that sort of thing, what is the faith of the man... In other words, I have to pay the mortgage since she doesn't earn so where am I suppose to live the next ten or so years?

Jamaican Me Crazy

Joshua5 wrote: »

I'd have to know before I try that sort of thing, what is the faith of the man... In other words, I have to pay the mortgage since she doesn't earn so where am I suppose to live the next ten or so years?

Surely she is not going to be in full time education forever? As soon as she has her qualifications won't she be looking for a job, otherwise why is she doing it? You do not have to pay for everything.
Also maybe I took you up wrong but are you paying the utilities also?

Jawgap

Joshua5 wrote: »

I'd have to know before I try that sort of thing, what is the faith of the man... In other words, I have to pay the mortgage since she doesn't earn so where am I suppose to live the next ten or so years?

You are not expected to put yourself in the 'poor house' - any fair agreement requires compromise by all. It's unlikely the house would be sold (not while the kids are in school) but you need to house yourself - mediators and the courts recognise and accept that, as well as the fact that you need to retain a certain level of income to play a full and proper role as the kids' Dad.

They'll also tell you that in a separation / divorce each party has to accept a diminution in their lifestyles - it's inevitable because one household becomes two. I don't know - but it sounds like she has not had to compromise as much as you.

Just a note, but mediation is free.

Joshua5

Jamaican Me Crazy wrote: »

Surely she is not going to be in full time education forever? As soon as she has her qualifications won't she be looking for a job, otherwise why is she doing it? You do not have to pay for everything.
Also maybe I took you up wrong but are you paying the utilities also?

I pay toward the utilities and childminding costs. She has 3 years to run on this course and god knows how long before she gets a job in Ireland. She gets some social welfare, it's not much but when I say I pay for everything the kids need I mean everything.

I've been working abroad because of recession and sending back the mula to keep the mortgage and bills etc etc but I'm back a couple of months now and half of me wishes I didn't come back because I have no home really.

bjork

Joshua5 wrote: »

I pay toward the utilities and childminding costs. She has 3 years to run on this course and god knows how long before she gets a job in Ireland. She gets some social welfare, it's not much but when I say I pay for everything the kids need I mean everything.

I've been working abroad because of recession and sending back the mula to keep the mortgage and bills etc etc but I'm back a couple of months now and half of me wishes I didn't come back because I have no home really.

I hope the social welfare are aware of her new live in partner

Jawgap

bjork wrote: »

I hope the social welfare are aware of her new live in partner

If I were you OP I would ignore whatever she and him are claiming or not claiming from SW.

Joshua5

Jawgap wrote: »

If I were you OP I would ignore whatever she and him are claiming or not claiming from SW.

I agree, it's none of my business really

desbrook

Joshua5 wrote: »

I agree, it's none of my business really

Absolutely not. Her income and his are most definitely your business. The lack of is supposedly why you are funding them. Get legal advice fast. The longer this goes on the more committed you are to funding everything.

Jawgap

desbrook wrote: »

Absolutely not. Her income and his are most definitely your business. The lack of is supposedly why you are funding them. Get legal advice fast. The longer this goes on the more committed you are to funding everything.

Sorry, my point was 'don't grass her up to SW' - she'll know it was him.

Mediation first would my advice. Although in my situation it didn't work, it ultimately played very well with the judge that I had evidence that I actively initiated the process and made a decent effort to get my ex to engage with it.

No harm in getting legal advice at the same time, just always be aware of how things might be perceived in court.

desbrook

If anything is to be done properly a statement of means has to be completed on both sides. That's just fact. If they are fiddling the SW great that'll give him the upper hand.

Murt10

bjork wrote: »

I hope the social welfare are aware of her new live in partner

It doesn't matter whether SW are aware of whether she is living with another man or not.

Once she qualified for the Third Level Allowance at the start of her course, she continues to keep it until the end. Doesn't matter even if you reconcile and move back in with her as husband and wife, she would still keep it.

The fact that you are paying all the mortgage means that she is not claiming Rent Allowance, so there is nothing to be gained from reporting this either.

I wish I was wrong but it's one of the major anomalies of the system, I'm afraid.

Joshua5

Murt10 wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether SW are aware of whether she is living with another man or not.

Once she qualified for the Third Level Allowance at the start of her course, she continues to keep it until the end. Doesn't matter even if you reconcile and move back in with her as husband and wife, she would still keep it.

The fact that you are paying all the mortgage means that she is not claiming Rent Allowance, so there is nothing to be gained from reporting this either.

I wish I was wrong but it's one of the major anomalies of the system, I'm afraid.

Exactly, so because of the relationship breakdown I'm homeless because the mortgage has to be paid and she hasn't the funds to pay it so it's up to me otherwise it's handing the keys back to the bank and I don't want that for my kids.

desbrook

Joshua5 wrote: »

Exactly, so because of the relationship breakdown I'm homeless because the mortgage has to be paid and she hasn't the funds to pay it so it's up to me otherwise it's handing the keys back to the bank and I don't want that for my kids.

Both parents have a duty to look after the kids\house so really her and her fella must contribute. A statement of means will find out how much. Anyway if the keys get handed back they can live in rented accommodation. Is that sooo bad???

Jawgap

desbrook wrote: »

Both parents have a duty to look after the kids\house so really her and her fella must contribute. A statement of means will find out how much. Anyway if the keys get handed back they can live in rented accommodation. Is that sooo bad???

Yes, it's called winning the battle and losing the war. You think the kids will ever forget (or be allowed forget) the role their Dad played in forcing them to give up their home, maybe change schools and move away from their friends into rented accommodation?

lulu1

OP I admire you for paying the morgage and keeping a roof over your kids head as well as paying for their upkeep. But I have to say that I do think that you are being taken advantage off here. Y our wife must be getting some kind of sw payment and yer man as well. I would defo talk to her and tell her to pay her fair share. OP why would they even bother their heads when you are there throwing money at her and the useless excuse for a man that she is living with. I hope you dont take offence because I am defo on your side

desbrook

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, it's called winning the battle and losing the war. You think the kids will ever forget (or be allowed forget) the role their Dad played in forcing them to give up their home, maybe change schools and move away from their friends into rented accommodation?

Their mam and her boyfriend would have played a greater role. Can you not see that??

Jawgap

desbrook wrote: »

Their mam and her boyfriend would have played a greater role. Can you not see that??

Yes, and speaking from experience the best way to deal with the issue is through mediation and you'd want to show that was fully exhausted before 'lawyering' up.

It will help if it gets to court - plus.........and this is much more important, imo,.....I don't know howl old the OP's kids are but at some point you are going to have to answer their questions and answer to them for your behaviour. That's the most important reason for following a considered approach to getting the situation to a fair resolution.

Jawgap

desbrook wrote: »

Their mam and her boyfriend would have played a greater role. Can you not see that??

Btw, the mother and bf will have more contact time with the kids - meaning more time to put their side of the story to the kids, and to repeat it and repeat it to them.

lulu1

desbrook wrote: »

Their mam and her boyfriend would have played a greater role. Can you not see that??

An adult would understand what you are saying but to the kids it would be Daddy wouldnt pay the morgage and got Mammy put out of the house and now we have nowhere to go.

Taltos

Kids aren't stupid.
Would folk rather that the OP became homeless out of some misbegotten belief that he has to provide everything to the exclusion of his own care?

OP - talk to a lawyer, not to take action but to learn your rights so that when you go to mediation you have a baseline - otherwise you are going in there blind and will agree to things that will destroy you in the longer term, with still no guarantee your kids will not be poisoned towards you by their mother.

Burying your head in the sand with the dare I say it, old mindset of "suck it up" or the "husband must provide" is just going to hurt you and maybe that relationship in the longer term. Instead just be fair, be consistent and let your children know you love them through your actions, do you really think they want to see you homeless?

Jawgap

lulu1 wrote: »

An adult would understand what you are saying but to the kids it would be Daddy wouldnt pay the morgage and got Mammy put out of the house and now we have nowhere to go.

"........Daddy made Mammy cry"

Joshua5

Guys I appreciate the feedback. I have to mention a couple of things, they live in a different county now because I'm living with my mum so even getting to see them costs a small fortune, but I do it ever weekend and it's a hell of a track. But the reality is, my current partner may in time want to have children, she may indeed also want to buy a house and although I'm on a good salary the taxes along in Ireland makes it difficult to survive when you are paying a mortgage on a house you don't live in. Of course living with my mum is cheaper than renting @ 1000 euro a month I still need to contribute to the tune of 500 towards the bills etc. So after I pay the mortgage of 800euro, 500 towards renting in my mums, at least 200 in travel to see the kids, paying off a personal loan I took to build an extra bedroom for the kids a couple of years ago @ 400 pcm and just the usual working travel expenses and food I'm broke...
Not to mention every single expense such as xmas, b'days, sports clubs, school sits firmly with me.

My new partner and I are in a really good place, although I have kids already and she is a fab step mum she'd likely look to me in a couple of years to have a family with her. Does this change the game altogether if that happens? I'm worried I'm stuck for life in a rut or at least a decade now. If my current situation takes 50% of my salary, just living takes another 50% how can I fit in having a family with my current partner.

BTW- My kids are really well looked after by their mum, it would be 50/50 custody only I don't live close enough and can't afford to rent of buy beside them. As she works nights in her training as a nurse (unpaid) they'd be allowed to come stay with me but right now the new lad is the stay at home daddy. Not sure what's relevant so excuse if I'm rambling on...

Jawgap

Joshua5 wrote: »

Guys I appreciate the feedback. I have to mention a couple of things, they live in a different county now because I'm living with my mum so even getting to see them costs a small fortune, but I do it ever weekend and it's a hell of a track. But the reality is, my current partner may in time want to have children, she may indeed also want to buy a house and although I'm on a good salary the taxes along in Ireland makes it difficult to survive when you are paying a mortgage on a house you don't live in. Of course living with my mum is cheaper than renting @ 1000 euro a month I still need to contribute to the tune of 500 towards the bills etc. So after I pay the mortgage of 800euro, 500 towards renting in my mums, at least 200 in travel to see the kids, paying off a personal loan I took to build an extra bedroom for the kids a couple of years ago @ 400 pcm and just the usual working travel expenses and food I'm broke...
Not to mention every single expense such as xmas, b'days, sports clubs, school sits firmly with me.

My new partner and I are in a really good place, although I have kids already and she is a fab step mum she'd likely look to me in a couple of years to have a family with her. Does this change the game altogether if that happens? I'm worried I'm stuck for life in a rut or at least a decade now. If my current situation takes 50% of my salary, just living takes another 50% how can I fit in having a family with my current partner.

BTW- My kids are really well looked after by their mum, it would be 50/50 custody only I don't live close enough and can't afford to rent of buy beside them. As she works nights in her training as a nurse (unpaid) they'd be allowed to come stay with me but right now the new lad is the stay at home daddy. Not sure what's relevant so excuse if I'm rambling on...

No, it's all relevant.

First, you are not expected to stop living and the courts recognise that - they also accept that people move on and circumstances change, such as new partners, new families etc - you are allowed to do that and you are not penalised for it - and you definitely should not feel in any way guilty about it. You are entitled to a life.

I think your next move should be to float the idea of mediation with her and see a solicitor for advice. But you should do something now to start getting some control back. Also on a purely practical note mediators and family law practices get incredibly busy in January, so you want to get on their radar quickly.

Also start gathering your documents - bills, bank statements, receipts. If you haven't already then start filing all this stuff, especially for anything you spend on the kids.

Joshua5

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it's all relevant.

First, you are not expected to stop living and the courts recognise that - they also accept that people move on and circumstances change, such as new partners, new families etc - you are allowed to do that and you are not penalised for it - and you definitely should not feel in any way guilty about it. You are entitled to a life.

I think your next move should be to float the idea of mediation with her and see a solicitor for advice. But you should do something now to start getting some control back. Also on a purely practical note mediators and family law practices get incredibly busy in January, so you want to get on their radar quickly.

Also start gathering your documents - bills, bank statements, receipts. If you haven't already then start filing all this stuff, especially for anything you spend on the kids.

I recently got a letter from SW saying I had to present 400 euro a week to her or something in or around that amount. I've no idea how they figured out that amount and I wouldn't have that amount to give. I think they based it on earnings from years ago but at the time I was getting bonus, overtime, on call allowance. I'm worried about going into a process and coming out worse off.

Jawgap

Joshua5 wrote: »

I recently got a letter from SW saying I had to present 400 euro a week to her or something in or around that amount. I've no idea how they figured out that amount and I wouldn't have that amount to give. I think they based it on earnings from years ago but at the time I was getting bonus, overtime, on call allowance. I'm worried about going into a process and coming out worse off.

Seriously - how did they figure that out! Anyway, they have no role in setting maintenance, what was the basis for them compelling you to pay her anything?

Also, you're not bound by mediation - at any time you can decide to walk away (as can she) and either return to the status quo or take a chance in the court.

In my own experience (which I admit may be completely unrepresentative), she baled on the mediation and like you I was in a tough financial position so decided I'd really nothing to lose by going to court. The judge, I found, was tough but fair and I'm came out in a lot better shape than I went in. At one point the judge even said he did feel compelled to be bound by my previous 'excessive generosity' when setting maintenance.

anyway, if you do nothing else this week get your paperwork together, get some proper professional advice (it'll cost but that cost may turn out to be a valuable investment) and scope things out with the FMS. I honestly think if you at least do that, then pause, you'll feel better.

Joshua5

Jawgap wrote: »

Seriously - how did they figure that out! Anyway, they have no role in setting maintenance, what was the basis for them compelling you to pay her anything?

I have no idea, it was a very aggressive letter saying they'll take me to court but they are aware I already pay what I do. Like 400e a week seems to be a mental amount. Just to clarify they could only base that on my previous income because I had emigrated. My base salary at the time was only 35k. I did get OT and Bonus but that's not guaranteed and who would work overtime if half goes to the taxman and the other half to the ex...

Joshua5

Is there any guide line I can work with, are we talking 50% of income including the mortgage or what is others experience?

cgh

OP,
every case will be different. this is where you need to get good legal advice, do your homework with your own income and expenditure, what you need to live off and then see what you can realistically afford to pay in maintenance.

wuzziwig

I too would strongly urge you to get legal advice and start the ball rolling with regards to mediation.

I can see why you would want to pay the mortgage in full because a) it's keeping a roof over your children's heads and b) if it's not paid you will be chased up for it by the bank anyway. It's also reasonable that you pay maintenance towards your children. Maintenance payments go towards clothes, food, heat, education, extra activities etc. However you are not obliged to pay the full utility bills of the house. Your ex and her new partner should be paying their fair share for the electricity, heat etc etc that they use. The partner might be getting some sort of SW payment, so should be able to contribute to the running of the household. I really do think they are taking huge advantage of you and a mediator wouldn't be long bringing that to light.

superstepmom2b

I think there was a thread a few months back on the same issue re SW sending letters to the father. They can't force you to pay anything and it's likely the request is to reduce the amount your ex wife can claim.

It is likely she is claiming children's allowance on all 3, another allowance as she is not working and a number of others. I would imagine the 400 is the max they can squeeze out of you which is likely based on calculations linked to the max that can be awarded by the family court. So if that is 150 per child which would be 450 seems like they are trying to get the max out of you.

Simple fact you have to live too. You are paying a mortgage to keep a roof over their heads and I'm sure your own rent also. Assuming you have overnights with them too and have those costs also. I would think with your generosity to date. Judge probably wouldn't increase the weekly amount you pay. Either way the SW can't force you to do anything only the family court can and she would have to take you to court to do that.