Fully Baked Left Wing Vegan Cookies

robindch

robindch wrote: »

A nice own-goal there - your clip slagging off the "left" for doing a bad interview starts with that ongoing story of Malcolm Rifkind -- former Conservative Foreign Secretary, former Conservative Defence Secretary and one or two other roles under both Conservative PM Margaret Thatcher and Conservative PM John Major -- extending the free market into the purchase, by people he thought were representatives of a Chinese company, of access to high-ranking diplomats.

#oops :rolleyes:

Whataboutery surely?

Drawing attention to stupidity on both sides still draws attention to the stupidity on the side that jank is 'aiming' at.

That they might have inadvertently included a "Right wing politician is corrupt" isn't an own goal really is it?

That interview is horrendous for so many reasons. Exposing an issue with the impossibilities of undeliverable promises (rings some bells about what is going on in Europe at the moment surely?) being presented as policies. Realism is important in politics. Both 'sides' are being (and always should be!) called to task on this I'd have thought?

Permabear

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robindch

jank wrote: »

Jack Straw former Labour Defense Sectary under Blair and Brown has been implicated like Malcolm Rifkind.

Can't say that I'd ever have described Jack Straw as being very left wing. In fact, I seem to remember that Labour had to rebrand their party as "New Labour" so as to make the departure from traditional left-wing politics even move obvious.

Deleted User wrote: »

Whataboutery surely?

Yes, entirely whataboutery. No attempt to engage with other posters or to discuss any issue, even trivially. Just random finger-pointing really. I'd probably have to card, then ban, myself if I did this all the time :rolleyes:

The Black Oil

Didn't former Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy fall apart in an interview a few years ago? Think it transpired he had a few drinking issues.

KomradeBishop

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

'The left' have largely been co-opted into adapting right-wing economic views, typically centered around NeoLiberalism and the neoclassical school of economics (which is predominant); paying for these promises is rarely a problem due to economic possibilities, but instead due to limited political possibilities.

Despite that, a minority among 'the left' are the only actual people with solutions to the economic crisis - such as Greek FM Yanis Varoufakis' 'Modest Proposal' (largely utilizing centralized EU bonds at low interest rates, to fund an EU-wide fiscal boost, where the only thing stopping it is dysfunctional EU politics), and stuff like Yanis' 'Future-Taxes-coin' plan which can be undertaken without EU help, which we may see used to boost Greek fiscal spending - similar to Robert Parenteau's 'Tax Anticipation Notes', which does much the same thing, even within the Euro.

Plans like these are dismissed not out of economic reasons, but largely out of ideological reasons - given the advantages periods of economic turmoil, provide to the lucky few within certain sectors of the economy, who are in a position to take advantage of crisis (e.g. I'm sure those who hold a predominant share of financial assets at the moment, the wealthy and finance industry, are loving the use of QE as a false 'solution' to our economic problems, when it primarily just inflates asset prices and effectively provides a subsidy to the wealthy and finance - I'd say they'd hate to see any real solutions replace it).

The people benefiting from this crisis, will of course always try to dismiss actual solutions to it.

Permabear

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shruikan2553

A party making promises that the country can't afford. Sounds familiar.

Nodin

The Black Oil wrote: »

Didn't former Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy fall apart in an interview a few years ago? Think it transpired he had a few drinking issues.

He did, then he consolidated them into one single very large issue. Very sad in ways, as he was in that 'turn up pissed drunk, deny drinking' stage.

KomradeBishop

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Centralized EU bonds don't 'conjure up' money out of thin air, any more than an individual countries bonds do - and if Greece/Ireland (or any other country for that matter), wants to use FT-coins or TAN's, then the EU doesn't need to be consulted.


It's funny really, that right-wing posters don't understand that all money is conjured out of thin air - since we're using a fiat currency; they come out with this 'magic money tree' nonsense, as if the idea of money being created from nothing is obviously ridiculous, when that's exactly how it's been done for the best part of a century.

It's like they think we're still in the gold standard or something - their economic views are based on theory which is that out of date - and don't understand that central banks are effectively the 'magic money tree' that they disparage.

jank

robindch wrote: »

Can't say that I'd ever have described Jack Straw as being very left wing. In fact, I seem to remember that Labour had to rebrand their party as "New Labour" so as to make the departure from traditional left-wing politics even move obvious.

Well his student days tell a very different story but I suppose what Tony Blair did with 'new' Labour was drag them into the 20th century and leave the old Soviet era Marxist ideology behind them for good. A growing up process if you like but still a pity that they didn't leave their love of spending behind them as well.

It is funny though that left wing parties are often very good at waving magic money tree policy pre election but when it actually comes to running a country reality is a vey quick to pull the rug from under lofty high-minded spoofers . The Irish Labour party and more recently Syriza have learnt this and now the Greens are finding out what it means to put forward rubbish as a policy.

jank

Probably belongs here...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-31638993

A Dumbarton lollipop man has been banned by the local council from "high-fiving" children as they cross the road.

Nkosana Mdikane, 74, is known as "Scotland's happiest lollipop man" due to his singing and dancing at work.

West Dunbartonshire Council said safety fears were behind the decision.

But school parents have questioned the council's reasoning, with one father David Dufton starting a Facebook campaign to try to reverse the move.

Logic 'flawed'
A statement from West Dunbartonshire Council said: "All patrollers are instructed when crossing children over a road to remain static with one hand on their stick and the other stretched outwards. This ensures that they can be seen and effectively provides a barrier between school pupils and the traffic."

High fives for the Scottish Labour Party?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Probably belongs here...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-31638993



High fives for the Scottish Labour Party?

I'm seeing plenty of stupid, but nothing left wing....

jank

Who runs the council?

jank

jank wrote: »

Who runs the council?

Ah that's woeful woeful reasoning!

Was nationalising the banks a right wing decision because Fianna Fail were in power?

jank

Well nationalisation is generally viewed as a socialist/left leaning belief, so no. However, over the top busy body 'health and safety' legislation about all minute facets of life is certainly a friend of the left.

robindch

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah that's woeful woeful reasoning!

That class of reasoning is endemic amongst those excellent citizens who divide the world into opposing, simplistic camps of "left" and "right". Indeed, it's one of the reasons the thread's being left(*) open.



(*) And I mean "left" in the sense of "remaining" instead of the prevailing local meaning of "honkingly, forehead-slappingly stupid".

Links234

I was gonna make some quip about mistaking health & safety with political correctness, but I see you've already pretty much cut me off at the pass on that one Jank. I guess it's easy to keep pointing out those whacky lefties when your definition of left wing is basically "anything I don't like"

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Who runs the council?

"New" Labour. However I'm not seeing the left wing reasoning behind the decision, myself.

Brian Shanahan

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Centralized EU bonds don't 'conjure up' money out of thin air, any more than an individual countries bonds do - and if Greece/Ireland (or any other country for that matter), wants to use FT-coins or TAN's, then the EU doesn't need to be consulted.


It's funny really, that right-wing posters don't understand that all money is conjured out of thin air - since we're using a fiat currency; they come out with this 'magic money tree' nonsense, as if the idea of money being created from nothing is obviously ridiculous, when that's exactly how it's been done for the best part of a century.

It's like they think we're still in the gold standard or something - their economic views are based on theory which is that out of date - and don't understand that central banks are effectively the 'magic money tree' that they disparage.

Of course they never talk about the "magic money tree" that is the unregulated fractional reserve banking so beloved of right-wing economists and politicians. Oh right, that's because its in the hands of private banks which are unaccountable to anybody, and therefore incapable of doing anything illegal or immoral.

KomradeBishop

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Of course they never talk about the "magic money tree" that is the unregulated fractional reserve banking so beloved of right-wing economists and politicians. Oh right, that's because its in the hands of private banks which are unaccountable to anybody, and therefore incapable of doing anything illegal or immoral.

Ya - and the banking system is not even fractional reserve (i.e. not even really limited by reserves, as the 'money multiplier' theory is false) - money for loans is literally created from nothing, not taken from savings/deposits as right-wing types always presume - i.e. they, as you say, pretty much function exactly like the 'magic money tree' these people disparage

jank

Nodin wrote: »

"New" Labour. However I'm not seeing the left wing reasoning behind the decision, myself.

Writing a letter to a (very popular) lollipop man and asking him to not high five children due the 'Health and Safety" is an example of what some people call 'The Nanny State'. It appears all agree that the decision to write this letter is stupid (does anyone disagree?), yet "New" Labor are very much for this over reaching state that tells individual's how to run their lives in very minute details.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4044815.stm

In a speech in London, Mrs Hodge insisted the government had a "powerful" role to play in family life.

She said "good nannies" were not just about telling you what you must do but about "ensuring you can make real and informed choices for yourself".

80 years ago you would have had the local vicar or priest running around telling people how to live their lives. Roll onto today we have faceless bureaucrats doing pretty much the same and people lap it up (like they did religion in the day). People are worshipping at the alter of the ever knowing and ever 'good' state.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Writing a letter to a (very popular) lollipop man and asking him to not high five children due the 'Health and Safety" is an example of what some people call 'The Nanny State'. It appears all agree that the decision to write this letter is stupid (does anyone disagree?), yet "New" Labor are very much for this over reaching state that tells individual's how to run their lives in very minute details.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4044815.stm



80 years ago you would have had the local vicar or priest running around telling people how to live their lives. Roll onto today we have faceless bureaucrats doing pretty much the same and people lap it up (like they did religion in the day). People are worshipping at the alter of the ever knowing and ever 'good' state.

And this is the preserve of the "left" is it?

jank

Nodin wrote: »

And this is the preserve of the "left" is it?

By all means put forward another theory and engage in the topic..

Nodin

jank wrote: »

By all means put forward another theory and engage in the topic..

Well, my theory is that there is no trace indicated of specifically "left wing ideology" in that incident.

joseph brand

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You sure you're not thinking about the right wing? As an example, Romney and Ryan promised to close the tax loopholes in the run up to the 2012 election. When quizzed on which loopholes exactly, their rehearsed reply was very specific, "all of them." Just like magic. Presumably all the magical money they would have brought in, had they not lost, could have been pumped into the Military–industrial complex. Christians just love a bit of war, and those pesky brown Ayrabs got it comin'.

No doubt Romney is an expert (or at east has hired experts) on tax loopholes. Romney could lecture on tax avoidance and offshore bank accounts.

Here's a left wing idea in action:

This Billionaire Governor Taxed the Rich and Increased the Minimum Wage -- Now, His State's Economy Is One of the Best in the Country

When he took office in January of 2011, Minnesota governor Mark Dayton inherited a $6.2 billion budget deficit and a 7 percent unemployment rate from his predecessor, Tim Pawlenty, the soon-forgotten Republican candidate for the presidency who called himself Minnesota's first true fiscally-conservative governor in modern history. Pawlenty prided himself on never raising state taxes -- the most he ever did to generate new revenue was increase the tax on cigarettes by 75 cents a pack. Between 2003 and late 2010, when Pawlenty was at the head of Minnesota's state government, he managed to add only 6,200 more jobs.

During his first four years in office, Gov. Dayton raised the state income tax from 7.85 to 9.85 percent on individuals earning over $150,000, and on couples earning over $250,000 when filing jointly -- a tax increase of $2.1 billion. He's also agreed to raise Minnesota's minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2018, and passed a state law guaranteeing equal pay for women. Republicans like state representative Mark Uglem warned against Gov. Dayton's tax increases, saying, "The job creators, the big corporations, the small corporations, they will leave. It's all dollars and sense to them." The conservative friend or family member you shared this article with would probably say the same if their governor tried something like this. But like Uglem, they would be proven wrong.

Between 2011 and 2015, Gov. Dayton added 172,000 new jobs to Minnesota's economy -- that's 165,800 more jobs in Dayton's first term than Pawlenty added in both of his terms combined. Even though Minnesota's top income tax rate is the 4th-highest in the country, it has the 5th-lowest unemployment rate in the country at 3.6 percent. According to 2012-2013 U.S. census figures, Minnesotans had a median income that was $10,000 larger than the U.S. average, and their median income is still $8,000 more than the U.S. average today.

Contrast this with Brownback's 'red state experiment'

Gail Jamison, a lifelong Republican, voted for Sam Brownback for governor in 2010 believing he would restore school funding that had been greatly reduced by the recession.

Four years later, she has joined with more than 100 prominent Republicans in publicly throwing their support behind Brownback’s Democratic opponent — because, she said, Brownback pursued a hefty tax cut for the rich that deprived schools of needed resources.

“I am shocked by what’s happened,” said Jamison, president of the Board of Education in this Wichita suburb. “I find it personally a very extreme stance.”
Advised by Arthur Laffer, the father of supply-side economics, and supported by special interest groups backed by conservative billionaire brothers Charles and David Koch, he pushed through legislation that cut taxes and spending, eliminated state jobs and denied far more applications for welfare assistance — not to mention that he tightened abortion regulations and loosened gun rules.

Brownback promised that the efforts would drive economic growth, create jobs and stabilize the Kansas budget. But the state is now reporting a more than $300 million revenue shortfall. The poverty rate increased. The state’s economy expanded a total of 2.3 percent in inflation-adjusted terms over the past two years, half the rate of its four neighbors. And Kansas’s credit rating has been downgraded.

I remember there was a farmer interviewed in Kansas (The Daily Show I think) about how many more people he would employ now that he had so much more money in his pocket. "None" was his reply. An employer only hires when it's absolutely vital to the business, not because they have spare cash. 'Job creators', ha!

PopePalpatine

Sure, Brownback's experiment wasn't true libertarianism. :rolleyes:

Links234

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Sure, Brownback's experiment wasn't true libertarianism. :rolleyes:

You're not doing it right, you should just say "HAH! Look at this crazy lefty loony" because that's how it's done in this thread, you just claim anything bad is left.

Permabear

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Turtwig

Reading up on the Greeks lately this quotation from 2010 stood out.

. In just the past decade the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled, in real terms—and that number doesn’t take into account the bribes collected by public officials. The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs: it’s still true.

Will provide source later.
If that quote is accurate that's surely a contender for this thread?

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Well, my theory is that there is no trace indicated of specifically "left wing ideology" in that incident.

Even when we had the example of a Labour minster espousing the virtues and 'good' of a nanny state?