22swift

Zxthinger

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Zxthinger,Norma 55gr .220 swift , by their own site is for SMALL game , not large as you stated above .What do you regard irish deer as in therms of game size ..inc red deer ?
What extra length is your swift barrel?
Regards, Tomcat.

Might have made small error quoting the manufactures spec! namely large/small game! But tbh I'm not whole concerned as anything I have shot has gone down! Including reds!

As to the barrel length it's an irrelevant point as I have tested the drops to validate the BCs and it's all good! Nothing was hitting low out to 400yards! Some stuff was coming in 1moa high when zeroed at 225yds.

I haven't pushed it beyond 150yds as it's not recommended but that suits my permissions and my style tbh.

Oh red deer! Well large for Ireland but still just deer!. And suitable for the swift if you accept the calibres limitations.
Have you ever owned a swift?
Oh barrel length! Well I think I had a 26" barrel on when I tested all this stuff!

tomcat220t

Zxthinger wrote: »

Might have made small error quoting the manufactures spec! namely large/small game! But tbh I'm not whole concerned as anything I have shot has gone down! Including reds!

As to the barrel length it's an irrelevant point as I have tested the drops to validate the BCs and it's all good! Nothing was hitting low out to 400yards! Some stuff was coming in 1moa high when zeroed at 225yds.

I haven't pushed it beyond 150yds as it's not recommended but that suits my permissions and my style tbh.

Oh red deer! Well large for Ireland but still just deer!. And suitable for the swift if you accept the calibres limitations.
Have you ever owned a swift?
Oh barrel length! Well I think I had a 26" barrel on when I tested all this stuff!

Hi Zxthinger,im sure your happy with the .220 swift for deer .What i was getting at was the limitations on game size recommend that norma place on your 55gr ammo.(small game).Just a taught!
Dont thing sika deer species are classed as small game .
Had a .220 swift for a while and like it for foxes.
Regards,Tomcat.

Zxthinger

Game size and what Norma say is a bit hit and mix! You search their site and youll find softer hitting ammo classed as for medium game!

Take a good look at a site called ballisticstudies.com iirc. You'll see a more detailed chart showing the swifts capabilities etc. Youll also see that it's quoted as not the best calibre to reach for when targeting medium game that might be as heavy as up to 260lbs. That red deer size. 

The calibre has limitations, but to be honest I haven't seen them but I stay on the safe side of cautious. 

On other point! Norma quotes this a small game callibre but after looking up 'small game' I'm left wondering if any real thought went into it's classification. 
Irrelevant of all that, Norma oryx is the only bonded factory bullet out there afaik. 
Anyway it's legal and it works and I bought if for those reasons! If they were ever to change the minimum requirement than it would be nice and polite if they allowed the holders of deer licences granted on say 22-250 and 220 swift to continue to relicence them for deer hunting until such time as they were sold on or scraped!
Personally I would have bought a 270/260rem/6.5-284 from the start but laws here being a bit anal curtailed by ambitions and forced me into the realm of the 22's. So after a bit of research I soon realised that the 220 swift would meet Garda approval as a .22cal (lol) and later it would meet the deer hunting requirements. 
The current system creates a recipe that causes firearms touting hunting enthusiasts to purchase additional firearms as they develop, as one calibre can't satisfy Garda 'approval and secure a licence' and still allow you to develop as a shooting hunter It's a systemic failure of a government that is trying to control firearms proliferation and serves as an example that stringent controls do not always achieve their goals. It's seems that it's really only a problem that effects hunters IMO as I see target shooters buying 308s and the like from the get-go, or whatever caliber best suits their needs. If hunters were allowed choose one calibre without having to justify it to the Nth degree then how many would have went for the likes of a 243 or 260rem?? 
How many here would have only ever bothered with an air rifle if they were easier to obtain or licence?
How many deer hunting rifles would be resigned to the second hand shelf if archery or shotgun slugs were permissible for deer hunting.

Things are not always as they seem,
   

tomcat220t

Hi Zxthinger,good post and pretty up sums up .220 swift .
Not all shooters put the time and research into their calibers ,ammo.ect ..as clearly you have .Fair play :cool:
Regards,Tomcat.

lakesider

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Zxthinger,good post and pretty up sums up .220 swift .
Not all shooters put the time and research into their calibers ,ammo.ect ..as clearly you have .Fair play :cool:
Regards,Tomcat.

Thats so true, some posters think it cant make 1700 ft/lbs......lol

tomcat220t

lakesider wrote: »

Thats so true, some posters think it cant make 1700 ft/lbs......lol

I still maintain that not all swifts are not making their advertized ammo speeds ....ive seen this first hand .Find .220 swift ammo that is for medium (sika)/large(red) game.
Regards,Tomcat.

lakesider

tomcat220t wrote: »

I still maintain that not all swifts are not making their advertized ammo speeds ....ive seen this first hand .Find .220 swift ammo that is for medium (sika)/large(red) game.
Regards,Tomcat.

and your expertise in ballistics comes from where?..the ballygobackwards firearms and ballistics college..lol

lakesider

tomcat220t wrote: »

I still maintain that not all swifts are not making their advertized ammo speeds ....ive seen this first hand .Find .220 swift ammo that is for medium (sika)/large(red) game.
Regards,Tomcat.

and your expertise in ballistics comes from where?..the ballygobackwards firearms and ballistics college..lol..im not claiming any thing thats not out there in the public domain-

Arising from a recent Deer Alliance HCAP Range Test, the question arises, is the .220 Swift a suitable round for use on our Irish deer species?




The current minimum legal calibre for use on deer in Ireland is not defined by calibre but rather by bullet weight and muzzle energy. The minimum legal bullet weight is 55 grains and the minimum legal muzzle energy is 1637 foot-pounds, Effectively, this is taken to mean the .22/250 which in the period 1972-1993 was probably the most widely used centre-fire round, although for many the preferred round was the 5.6 x 57 m.m. with 74 grain bullet.




From 1993, larger-calibre firearms became available and accepted by the licensing authority (Garda Siochana). This came about as a result of certain legal actions in the form of judicial review in the High Court against refusal of firearms certificates for calibres above .22 inch. Thus the keener deer hunters switched over to calibres such as the .243, .270, 6.5 x 55 m.m. and .308, while newcomers to deer hunting automatically went for the larger calibres.




Nevertheless, there remains a hardened corps of hunters who still use the .22/250 and in a few cases, the 5.6 x 57 m.m. This is despite the fact that unanimously, the various deer organisations, and especially Deer Alliance HCAP, are committed to the promotion and use of .240 inch, 100-grain bullet with muzzle energy of 2100 foot-pounds as the recommended minimum legal calibre for our Irish deer species.




For purposes of the Range Test element of HCAP, candidates must use the legal minimum calibre (not necessarily the minimum recommended legal, which is a different calibre). For a small handful of candidates, this has meant the .22/250. More recently, one candidate presented with a rifle in calibre .220 Swift, with 60 grain bullet. While the standard .220 Swift with 40- or 50-grain bullet does not meet the minimum legal calibre requirement, the same calibre with 60 grain bullet does, since in Winchester 60 grain, it delivers 1772 foot-pounds (2403 Joules) of energy at muzzle.



Thus Deer Alliance HCAP are satisfied that the .220 Swift with 60-grain bullet may be used for purposes of the HCAP Range Test, while strongly advocating that the minimum legal calibre should be .240 inches, with 100-grain bullet and muzzle energy of 2100 foot-pounds, for all purposes relating to the humane and effective management of wild deer.

tomcat220t

lakesider wrote: »

and your expertise in ballistics comes from where?..the ballygobackwards firearms and ballistics college..lol

You stayed to near 3 this morning talking to yourself:D:D.
The .22s are been phased out on deer by both hunters and powers that be in ireland and rightly so in my opinion .
98% of the ammo/rifle combos. dont meet the min ft/lbs in the swift caliber .
Non of the 2% that do make the min required ft/lbs are ammo built for medium/large game .
All ammo have the max recommend game size .....you think that bullet manufactures are in the habbit of underestimate their bullets capability ....quite the opposite imo.
Thats not to say in the right hands that a .220 swift can do the job.
Regards,Tomcat.

The Aussie

tomcat220t wrote: »

The .22s are been phased out on deer by both hunters and powers that be in ireland and rightly so in my opinion .

Has this been reported on by a reputable source?

I've heard this a number of times, but is it one of those rumours that grows legs and becomes fact

tomcat220t wrote: »

98% of the ammo/rifle combos. dont meet the min ft/lbs in the swift caliber .
Non of the 2% that do make the min required ft/lbs are ammo built for medium/large game .

98%??? I'm going to have to ask for a Link to that statistic sorry, or I'm just going to call Bull**** on it now! and just for the record I don't own a Swift or a 22-250, I'm in the .24 cal Tribe. But can we stick to semi realistic stories for the sake of a good debate please.

tomcat220t

The Aussie wrote: »

Has this been reported on by a reputable source?

I've heard this a number of times, but is it one of those rumours that grows legs and becomes fact





98%??? I'm going to have to ask for a Link to that statistic sorry, or I'm just going to call Bull**** on it now! and just for the record I don't own a Swift or a 22-250, I'm in the .24 cal Tribe. But can we stick to semi realistic stories for the sake of a good debate please.

Its smiple,show mean example of ammo in the swift that meet the min energy and is suited for medium/large game ?
So far one example , norma 55gr gets over the min energy line and is for small game !Sika can be up to 175lbs weight .....not SMALL game.
Regards,Tomcat.

The Aussie

You did not answer the first question!

Show me where the "powers that be" are phasing out the .22 Cals as a Deer Caliber???

Or is it just a perpetuation of a myth?

tomcat220t wrote: »

Its smiple,show mean example of ammo in the swift that meet the min energy and is suited for medium/large game ?
So far one example , norma 55gr gets over the min energy line and is for small game !Sika can be up to 175lbs weight .....not SMALL game.
Regards,Tomcat.

So where in your mathematical equation do you end up at 98%???

I would like both questions answered by the way.

hiddenmongoose

I posted back in the start of this whole thing that up until last year I used a swift for deer as well as a 308.I used the swift in my permissions where shots were averaging 80 to 150 m .I never had a walker from the swift all DRT.Thats on all species apart from reds,never used it on reds.In the right circumstances and with common sense used it is a very lethal and accurate calibre on deer.
Its not the calibre of choice if you were to have only one rifle for deer but like in my situation where I had a specific rifle for deer (308) and had a swift for foxes then why not double job it for those small permissions.
You can argue ethics all day,If its legal its legal full stop,and unless you have used a swift and on deer arguing numbers is beside the point.It filled my freezer without any runners .

tomcat220t

The Aussie wrote: »

You did not answer the first question!

Show me where the "powers that be" are phasing out the .22 Cals as a Deer Caliber???

Or is it just a perpetuation of a myth?




So where in your mathematical equation do you end up at 98%???

I would like both questions answered by the way.

Did you read post 30 ? NPSW..."powers that be"one example of a few i know of this year.
M mathematical equation is probably a Conservative one because i dont see any bullet manufacture that design .220 swift ammo for medium/large game.
Regards,Tomcat.

The Aussie

tomcat220t wrote: »

Did you read post 30 ? NPSW..."powers that be"one example of a few i know of this year.

From the same people that brought you the "you need 100 acres son" myth

Has it been written down in legislation or reported on by a reputable source as in the pipeline?

tomcat220t wrote: »

M mathematical equation is probably a Conservative one because i dont see any bullet manufacture that design .220 swift ammo for medium/large game.
Regards,Tomcat.

But they do meet the ft/lbs set out in Legislation, your defense of the "Bullet manufacturers don't design .220 Swift ammo for Mediun/Large Game" is sadly not in Legislation, making your stout defense on your theories flawed, unless your being intentionally obtuse :pac:......
Your mystical 98% is not "conservitave" it's a big steaming pile to be fair.

tomcat220t

The Aussie wrote: »

From the same people that brought you the "you need 100 acres son" myth

Has it been written down in legislation or reported on by a reputable source as in the pipeline?



But they do meet the ft/lbs set out in Legislation, your defense of the "Bullet manufacturers don't design .220 Swift ammo for Mediun/Large Game" is sadly not in Legislation, making your stout defense on your theories flawed, unless your being intentionally obtuse :pac:......
Your mystical 98% is not "conservitave" it's a big steaming pile to be fair.

I answered your questions, at least have the courtesy to answer my one on post 42.
Regards,Tomcat.

The Aussie

tomcat220t wrote: »

I answered your questions, at least have the courtesy to answer my one on post 42.
Regards,Tomcat.

What this... LOL

tomcat220t wrote: »

Its smiple,show mean example of ammo in the swift that meet the min energy and is suited for medium/large game ?

It is not in Legislation stipulating Small, Medium nor Large Game, it is ft/lbs so I just wrote off the above "Question"(lol) as nonsensical rubbish sorry, you seem fairly caught up with the whole "it's not designed for Large Game" (it's better if you say that in a Hellen Lovejoy " won't somebody please think of the children" voice)

If you want Legislation changed you should petition for it...

tomcat220t

The Aussie wrote: »

What this... LOL



It is not in Legislation stipulating Small, Medium nor Large Game, it is ft/lbs so I just wrote off the above "Question"(lol) as nonsensical rubbish sorry, you seem fairly caught up with the whole "it's not designed for Large Game" (it's better if you say that in a Hellen Lovejoy " won't somebody please think of the children" voice)

If you want Legislation changed you should petition for it...

That what i taught .....
Regards,Tomcat.

hiddenmongoose

dont see why tomcat is geting caught up as to whether the bullet was designed for deer or not.I used 60gr hp hornadys and they killed like ebola!
on that same point I have killed deer with my 308 with match bullets,168gr smks,175gr scenars and 155s .Even the most expensive hunting designed bullets often dont expand/mushroom as intended as it all has to do with what it strikes on impact,typically of course they preform better than match bullets BUT if you put a 308 sized hole in a deers head ,neck or heart it is going to drop,regardless of what bullet did it.over half the deer I dropped last year were to match bullets as the hunting bullet of my choice could not be got locally and I used the match bullets that I was zeroed with.Shot placement is what its all about, bad shot placement cannot be compensated for by bullet design.

The Aussie

tomcat220t wrote: »

That what i taught .....
Regards,Tomcat.

What?

That your wrong


Regards, The Aussie.

tomcat220t

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

dont see why tomcat is geting caught up as to whether the bullet was designed for deer or not.I used 60gr hp hornadys and they killed like ebola!
on that same point I have killed deer with my 308 with match bullets,168gr smks,175gr scenars and 155s .Even the most expensive hunting designed bullets often dont expand/mushroom as intended as it all has to do with what it strikes on impact,typically of course they preform better than match bullets BUT if you put a 308 sized hole in a deers head ,neck or heart it is going to drop,regardless of what bullet did it.over half the deer I dropped last year were to match bullets as the hunting bullet of my choice could not be got locally and I used the match bullets that I was zeroed with.Shot placement is what its all about, bad shot placement cannot be compensated for by bullet design.

That about sums it up ...shooting deer with match bullets !
And Lakesider & The Aussie thanking/agreeing to your post.
Regards,Tomcat.

hiddenmongoose

tomcat220t wrote: »

That about sums it up ...shooting deer with match bullets !
And Lakesider & The Aussie thanking/agreeing to your post.
Regards,Tomcat.

They all dropped dead on the spot,once again shot placement is key and if you have shot enough animals you would know that even the most expensive hunting bullets fail to expand ect as designed ,are they better for the job ya of course but a well placed round beats a poor placed round anyday.And guess what , match ammo is ...wait for it ....very accurate !so I had no difficulty putting it in the head or neck.had I got my preferred hunting ammo i would have used it but I couldnt .
I did HCAP 2 years ago and saw guys missing the deer vitals, not able to pass the first group stage,even seen a guy unable to load his own gun ! they were all using hunting bullets though,Guess which deer would get a quicker more humane death,Mine with well placed shots even if it was match ammo or their deer ,clipped, gutshot ect with hunting ammo?
So ya my post does sum it up.I will take shot placement over bullet design anyday of the week .
What real world experience do you have with the swift on deer ,real world ,not numbers off JBM or some other ballistic calculater.Iv explained mine.

tomcat220t

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

They all dropped dead on the spot,once again shot placement is key and if you have shot enough animals you would know that even the most expensive hunting bullets fail to expand ect as designed ,are they better for the job ya of course but a well placed round beats a poor placed round anyday.And guess what , match ammo is ...wait for it ....very accurate !so I had no difficulty putting it in the head or neck.had I got my preferred hunting ammo i would have used it but I couldnt .
I did HCAP 2 years ago and saw guys missing the deer vitals, not able to pass the first group stage,even seen a guy unable to load his own gun ! they were all using hunting bullets though,Guess which deer would get a quicker more humane death,Mine with well placed shots even if it was match ammo or their deer ,clipped, gutshot ect with hunting ammo?
So ya my post does sum it up.I will take shot placement over bullet design anyday of the week .
What real world experience do you have with the swift on deer ,real world ,not numbers off JBM or some other ballistic calculater.Iv explained mine.

One of the very first times on this site im nearly lost for words with your last 2 replys!Meet the right guy on the field shooting deer with match ammo you would loose your licence ..wrong guy would wrap your gun around a tree if your lucky:mad::mad:.
Regards,Tomcat.

The Aussie

tomcat220t wrote: »

That about sums it up ...shooting deer with match bullets !
And Lakesider & The Aussie thanking/agreeing to your post.
Regards,Tomcat.

What are you crying about this time???

There was a lot of content there, do you know what I was agreeing to by thanking his post, was it the general content i.e the whole Post or parts there of, or the sentiment of the Post, do you know???

The only thing thats sums it up is...




Regards, The Aussie.

hiddenmongoose

tomcat220t wrote: »

One of the very first times on this site im nearly lost for words with your last 2 replys!Meet the right guy on the field shooting deer with match ammo you would loose your licence ..wrong guy would wrap your gun around a tree if your lucky:mad::mad:.
Regards,Tomcat.

firstly how would I lose my licence? nothing illegal there, legal calibre legal bullet weight got my licence so what can I lose a licence for ?
secondly now your saying I would be assaulted and have my rifle damaged ?by whom? another law abiding sportsman is going to do that and risk assault and vandalism charges ,good luck with that one !And you think that sort of behavior would be appropriate ? You have a problem with my ethics of bullet choice but nothing with me having my property vandalised ?Says alot about you
As far as a legal standpoint there is nothing wrong so you are left with a moral/ethics standpoint and as I have explaind there are guys using hunting bullets that cant hit the ground in front of them and there is also guys living out sniper fantasys shooting deer as far away as possible wheres the ethics there?I killed a fair few deer last year with some match style bullets ,they werent my first choice for hunting but were what I had and what i was zeroed for.I took those animals cleanly and humanely .
I can stand over that with no qualms whatsoever.

tomcat220t

H iAussie,
Post 48 sums up your attitude towards choosing any bullet design bullet for shooting game .(nonsensical rubbish)
Post 50 was about bullet design again and shooting deer with match ammo .You thanked him for his post !
Any hunter to read that post with half a mind would be disgusted but still, you thanked him.
Bullet design matters weather its a.220 swift or .308 ...not whats just in the legislation !
Regards,Tomcat.

The Aussie

tomcat220t wrote: »

H iAussie,
Post 48 sums up your attitude towards choosing any bullet design bullet for shooting game .(nonsensical rubbish)
Post 50 was about bullet design again and shooting deer with match ammo .You thanked him for his post !
Any hunter to read that post with half a mind would be disgusted but still, you thanked him.
Bullet design matters weather its a.220 swift or .308 ...not whats just in the legislation !
Regards,Tomcat.

Now you are being intentionally obtuse (very apt)
You are trying to confuse two different points to suit your flawed agenda...

1. The use of the .220 Swift as a Deer Caliber using Hunting Rounds (That did not end to well for you)
2. The use of Match Grade Ammunition in.308 on Deer.

How your attempting to join those two totally separate points together is like adding 1+1 and getting 37.. It's like poetry in motion.

Now do you know what part of Post 50 I agreed to? Was it the Content or the Sentiment of the Post. (Very important you acknowledge and answer this question).

There are other users on this very site who use Target Rounds on Rabbits, I myself have seen .416 Rigby Solids used on Dangerous Game (which is actually recommended for some species), I have long given up on judging other Hunters choices, some take longer shots than I would, others use calibers than would be my own personal choice, without knowing much you seem to be Judging everybody, which is a fair indication of the person you are to be fair.

And yes per Post 48, what I was replying to is Nonsensical Rubbish, and sadly it's not confined to that Post...




Regards, The Aussie.

Zxthinger

People were shooting deer with 303 army surplus and 30 06 ball for years and there ain't much difference beteen these rounds and match grade ammo!.

People are still harvesting deer today with 100year old rifles and ball ammo and it's not an issue.

There is piles of data out there that seems to give credibility to the match grade bullet!

Here's just one! http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-gear/tactical-military-arms-blog/match-ammo-for-hunting/2

Addition info: Surplus ammo might give ye similar results but by different mechanical means.
FMJ's with either low density material or a void at the tip cretae bullets that destabilise and yaw badly upon hitting soft targets and create excessive wound channels when compared to overstabilised homogenised lead cored fmj's.

hiddenmongoose

while this is going off topic of the thread here is 5 full pages of animals taken with match bullets.As I said they are not my first choice but they work just perfect if placed properly.
http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=106997

The Aussie

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

while this is going off topic of the thread here is 5 full pages of animals taken with match bullets.As I said they are not my first choice but they work just perfect if placed properly.
http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=106997

Well it is not to far off topic, while using a .220 Swift and Solids would not be something I'm into for my own reasons.

It does go to show its more the about placement of the round not the round being used...



Edit: great thread and good site, just spent a few hours trawling through there, even found out what DRT means...