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Are the Regs changing? "Imminent changes"

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2

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    #32
    breffnij
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭breffnij


    Hi,

    I was onto my local councillor and he emailed the department on my behalf after I got some outrageous quotes (one was 32k!!). There reply was

    "Thank you for your enquiry in relation to the Building Regulations. I am afraid that there is not much that we can do for your constituent on this occasion. The Building Control (Amendment) Regulations introduced the requirement for an Assigned Certifier from 1st March 2014 to help improve the standard of works for all new development. Chartered engineers, registered architects and registered building surveyors are the only professionals who may be appointed to the roles of assigned certifier. The costs associated with this work is not specified and will vary with each job depending on the size and complexity of the development and the experience of the contractors carrying out the works. Typically I would expect the fees to be in the range €5,000 to €7,000 for a one off house being constructed by a registered builder. The rate per house in a larger development will be significantly less. Your e-mail refers to self build houses and in this case the costs may be significantly greater as the assigned certifier may have to assess the competency of those carrying out the works, requiring a greater attendance on site to ensure that the standards are being implemented. We have contacted the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government who have confirmed that they are not currently reviewing the Regulations but hope to commence a review in February 2015."

    Very annoying as this will probably be stretched out until Sept before a decision is made...if lucky.


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    #33
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,220 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    So their "estimations" are slowly creeping up, from little phils €1k - €3k.... now to €5k-€7k.

    They simply haven't a clue about the liability they are foisting on the certifier and the standard of work to be done to be certain of no liability.


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    #34
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    breffnij wrote: »
    I was onto my local councillor and he emailed the department on my behalf after I got some outrageous quotes (one was 32k!!).

    Keep us posted. Those qoutes are not outrageous if you undertsand the liabilities and workload attached to the service.

    But do continue to stir as much hassle as you can in the right direction - the lawmakers not architects.


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    #35
    breffnij
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭breffnij


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Keep us posted. Those qoutes are not outrageous if you undertsand the liabilities and workload attached to the service.

    Are you joking me?? 32k is crazy money for a self build....i don't care what paperwork or insurance/liability is involved.


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    #36
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    breffnij wrote: »
    Are you joking me?? 32k is crazy money for a self build....i don't care what paperwork or insurance/liability is involved.

    The liability is potentially crazy for the certifier...thus the fee.


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    #37
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,220 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    breffnij wrote: »
    Are you joking me?? 32k is crazy money for a self build....i don't care what paperwork or insurance/liability is involved.

    3 site visits a week @3hrs a pop (travel, on site, office work after) x 28 week build = 100 Euros an hour.
    = €26k + vat.

    Quite reasonable for an office to charge that rate.

    Not at all crazy.

    The standard required under the law and the liability forced onto ONE person is the crazy part.


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    #38
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    breffnij wrote: »
    ...i don't care what paperwork or insurance/liability is involved.

    Now that's a bit selfish don't you think?


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    #39
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Now that's a bit selfish don't you think?
    Come on now, it's a clients priority to question this fee, and the certifers obligation to justify the fee.


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    #40
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    He rejected not questioned the basis for the fee. Not In ignorance of but indiference to the circumstance of the certifier.

    In any event in complaining to elected officials he is taking the appropriate action. brefnij be aware that the minister is reviewing the new regs at this time. You should make your views know to HIM at alankelly.ie


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    #41
    breffnij
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭breffnij


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    brefnij be aware that the minister is reviewing the new regs at this time. You should make your views know to HIM at alankelly.ie

    I have already..no reply. hence why I went to my local councillor and no surprise got a reply back within a week.

    In relation to the fees I was quoted for 7 site visits for the main stages in the build. Not a certifier in THE WORLD is going to come to a site 94 times @ 3 hours a time to certify a project so I disagree with your figures. Another reason why this is outrageous.

    The liability is one aspect I can understand- if high fees are going to be argued let it be over this point but surely some insurances plans can reduce this liability.


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    #42
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,220 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    breffnij wrote: »
    I have already..no reply. hence why I went to my local councillor and no surprise got a reply back within a week.

    In relation to the fees I was quoted for 7 site visits for the main stages in the build. Not a certifier in THE WORLD is going to come to a site 94 times @ 3 hours a time to certify a project so I disagree with your figures. Another reason why this is outrageous.

    The liability is one aspect I can understand- if high fees are going to be argued let it be over this point but surely some insurances plans can reduce this liability.

    the frequency for site visits on a build with a registered experienced contractor is gauged to b approx 30ish (IEI and RIAI)

    however with a "self build" or "direct labour" it would not at all be unusual for the frequency to be double that, to make sure the build is being built properly.

    also, my figures above are showing an office charging €100 per hour, that would actually be to the low end of most companies costs. €200 and hour would be 42 site visits


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    #43
    breffnij
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭breffnij


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    3 site visits a week @3hrs a pop (travel, on site, office work after) x 28 week build = 100 Euros an hour.
    part.

    So you were just throwing out random figures here then? I'm not arguing but I think this is just backing up my point of all these varying quotes as you've now said site visits can be anywhere from 30ish to 60ish to 90ish visits on a house build. As well as costs being €100ish to €200ish.

    Anyway, I've secured a guy for this project who has experience and comes recommended. His quote is a third of the 32k quote and includes everything. I'm not saying this to have a go at anyone just to highlight this rate for anyone doing it. No doubt other quotes are cheaper or others more expensive.


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    #44
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,220 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    breffnij wrote: »
    So you were just throwing out random figures here then? I'm not arguing but I think this is just backing up my point of all these varying quotes as you've now said site visits can be anywhere from 30ish to 60ish to 90ish visits on a house build. As well as costs being €100ish to €200ish.

    Anyway, I've secured a guy for this project who has experience and comes recommended. His quote is a third of the 32k quote and includes everything. I'm not saying this to have a go at anyone just to highlight this rate for anyone doing it. No doubt other quotes are cheaper or others more expensive.

    nah im not throwing out random figures, ive explained where the come from, i was just outlining how an office may come up with those quotes.

    and im glad you got a quote of approx 11k, thats a lot more realistic and in line with similar quotes ive seen.

    still, 11k is a ridiculous amount of money to spend out of your mortgage isnt it.......


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    #45
    breffnij
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭breffnij


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    still, 11k is a ridiculous amount of money to spend out of your mortgage isnt it.......

    It is crazy but if you get a better home its worth it. Agreement I have is pending changes to the regs the price of certication will come down accordingly which is pretty sound. Unfair/ Unreasonable to ask him to set any figures we will just work it out as it comes..........now to start having a go at builders prices!! :D:D;)


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    #46
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,220 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    breffnij wrote: »
    It is crazy but if you get a better home its worth it. Agreement I have is pending changes to the regs the price of certication will come down accordingly which is pretty sound. Unfair/ Unreasonable to ask him to set any figures we will just work it out as it comes..........now to start having a go at builders prices!! :D:D;)

    yeah but if you "commence" under the current regs, thats what youll be stuck with, you wont be able to change.

    personally i think, with a review in late january, and a change to the BCARS most probably requiring another SI amendment, your looking at min 6 months before anything could be seen to change... if at all.....


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    #47
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    breffnij wrote: »
    It is crazy but if you get a better home its worth it. Agreement I have is pending changes to the regs the price of certication will come down accordingly which is pretty sound. Unfair/ Unreasonable to ask him to set any figures we will just work it out as it comes..........now to start having a go at builders prices!! :D:D;)

    ....which brings up an interesting question: will your house be any better because of it ? Remember, the technical regs never changed, only the 'admin' of them, so technically the house will be the exact same..........

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #48
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Remember, the technical regs never changed, only the 'admin' of them, so technically the house will be the exact same..........

    Is that really your opinion?


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    #49
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Is that really your opinion?

    The technical regulations didn't chage per say.
    They chage periodically (Part K on the 1st January 2015 and Part E from the 1st July 2015 for example). The building control act as introduced in March 2014 didn't have an effect on the Technical requirements of the regulations.


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    #50
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    I honestly believe that despite the building regulations themselves not changing the quality of housing stock will increase because of the new control regulations. Although most of the people who post here are conscientious enough to have supervised effectively before the new rules we all know of houses that were supervised poorly or indeed not supervised at all!


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    #51
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Drift wrote: »
    I honestly believe that despite the building regulations themselves not changing the quality of housing stock will increase because of the new control regulations.


    Me too.


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    #52
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Is that really your opinion?

    Is what my opinion ? That SI9 changed nothing in a physical build ?

    All that changed was administration and oversight of the work.

    Which brings me back to my point: if the work before SI9 was done correctly, and the same work done now, under the new BCMS regime similarly done, your house would behave the same.

    So, because of the (in-)action of the Few, the majority are being put through a scheme which brings costs. To say otherwise is to say the Majority in the industry were at fault, which frankly isn't the case.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #53
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    Só you are saying that the now mandatory inspection regime and certification process will not positively impact standards.

    How cynical.
    You must find life hard.


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    #54
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Só you are saying that the now mandatory inspection regime and certification process will not positively impact standards.

    How cynical.
    You must find life hard.

    I can only speak from my own perspective which is one that the regime now in place is that to which we as a company have been working to for many years, as we have always been literal with the requirements. We have been an audited-by-Agrément type of company for many years, so it would never have been an option for us to do otherwise. This is also because we make and sell product to the export market.

    So, if your observation is that now those in the industry who 'let us down' are now coming to terms with the standard we are used to, then that's not cynicism - I take it more as confirmation that we were doing it right all along (and often putting ourselves at a competitive disadvantage for doing so).

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #55
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    galwaytt wrote: »
    (and often putting ourselves at a competitive disadvantage for doing so).


    This is one of the (few) benefits of the new system imo. It means that people who always did things right are now facing less competition from the undercutting chancers who now have less chance of getting under the radar.


    Edit: Both consultants and contractors


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    #56
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Drift wrote: »
    This is one of the (few) benefits of the new system imo. It means that people who always did things right are now facing less competition from the undercutting chancers who now have less chance of getting under the radar.


    Edit: Both consultants and contractors


    This is true, as it does mean people are going to have to compare apples with apples. It will make my job easier, and if I lose them (as you do), at least it is more likely that the process was more objective.

    That has always been my issue when quoting - it wasn't that people were comparing apples with apples, its more like they were comparing Fruit with Veg !! :pac: :pac:

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #57
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Só you are saying that the now mandatory inspection regime and certification process will not positively impact standards.

    How cynical.
    You must find life hard.

    Engineers and architects should have been doing it all along. The good ones did. The bad ones took the cheque and didn't ask questions. The inspection regime hasn't changed from before.


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    #58
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,220 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    kceire wrote: »
    Engineers and architects should have been doing it all along. The good ones did. The bad ones took the cheque and didn't ask questions. The inspection regime hasn't changed from before.

    with respect...

    the people legally charged with the power to enforce the regulations should have done their job.

    an industry was created between financial institutions, the law society, and professional bodies... all endorsed by central government... which allowed these situations to occur in the first place.

    Buildings could be constructed with NO architect or engineer involvement at all, totally legally, and the result foisted off to an unsuspecting public.


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    #59
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    galwaytt wrote: »
    the regime now in place is that to which we as a company have been working to for many years

    Exactly. So SI 9 will impact building standards. It is nonense to state
    galwaytt wrote: »
    the technical regs never changed, only the 'admin' of them, so technically the house will be the exact same

    because you don't even believe that yourself.


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    #60
    Strolling Bones
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Strolling Bones


    kceire wrote: »
    Engineers and architects should have been doing it all along.

    Local Authortity building control inspectors should have been doing it all along. Don't deflect here. Unlike in the UK our public "servants" have run away from the respsonsilities endowed upon them by legislation.


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    #61
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    Exactly. So SI 9 will impact building standards. It is nonense to state

    You're playing word games. Building Standards as I use the term in a construction context here refers directly to the actual objective technical standards applied by regulation and statute.

    I am not using a colloquial subjective derivative of the word as you seem to. Which is fine, so long as you make that clear.
    Strolling Bones wrote: »
    because you don't even believe that yourself.

    I believe that my "standard of work" given my latter definition above is the same as before S.I.9, and is found to meet & exceed expectations. Happily, I now find that others now see "value" in that proposal too, hence we being busy.

    Sure, some have been pushed into it by S.I.9, but hey, it's an ill wind that doesn't blow some good...........

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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