Cross on summit of Carrauntoohil cut down with angle grinder (Warning: contains TLAs)

expectationlost

Atheist Irelands statement this morning

Atheist Ireland did not make a statement after the cross was vandalised on Carrauntoohill and neither did we contact any journalist or the media in general. The first time that atheists were mentioned in relation to the cutting down of the cross was by a Fianna Fáil Councillor from Kerry County Council and that was reported in an article in the Irish Times. This particular Councillor put forward the recent motion regarding erecting a cross in Kerry County Council as he stated that he was fed up being ashamed of his religion.

On foot of the Irish Times article various radio stations contacted us for interviews with regard to the cross and one actually asked us did we cut it down. We did the interviews and suggested that if a new symbol was put up that it might be an inclusive one. At no stage during these interviews did our representatives state that we were offended by the cross on the top of Carrauntoohill. It would be very difficult for us to be offended as we did not know it existed. We have never thought it important enough to even discuss religious symbols on mountains as we never even knew they were up there.

Our main focus with regard to religious symbols has been in the education system where some schools have a religious crest on their school uniform and minorities have no choice but to wear a particular religious symbol to gain access to their only local publicly funded school, this would includes religious minorities as well. We are also in correspondence with Kerry County Council regarding the erection of a cross in the Council Chamber.

Well this is Ireland and we have now been informed that we are going to burn in hell, are intolerant, pushing our views on everyone, seeking attention, gleeful, did not give the local people enough sympathy etc etc and should be tarred and feathered and run out of the country. Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao and Hitler are in there somewhere as well. Nothing new here, this is all the usual stuff with just a different subject except for one person just said that he did not like us. That is just so quaint that we might frame it.

https://www.facebook.com/AtheistIreland/posts/10152870872549017


makes the point about the difference betweeen the choice of climbing a mountain and the lack in choice in schools

shruikan2553

The media seems to be quite fond of making up stuff about AI.

What do you think of fizzy drinks?
AI: They are ok in moderation but shouldnt be your main source of liquid!

HEADLINE: ATHEIST IRELAND COMES OUT TO BANS FIZZY DRINKS!

swampgas

Username32 wrote: »

Oh come on now your not seriously equating the struggle for rights for gay people and gender equality with a mindless objection to a cross on a hill.

That's the kind of "only atheist in the village" nit picking that annoys me about so call spokes people for atheism.

We are living I'm a post Catholic church dominated ireland. Could some atheists start to understand that.

I am an atheist, let the cross stay where it is, I'm not in the slightest bit offended by it. Or the grottos holy wells cribs or any other relic on Catholic Ireland.

I happen to like the crib at Christmas and yea even in a hospital, as when I lived in the UK I liked the Hindu festival my neighbors celebrated.

So spokes people for atheism - can you make clear you dont speak for all atheists.

Ian o Doherty has got it right on this one and that's saying something.

Sure, I get all of that - are we talking at cross-purposes here? It seems to me that AI and other commentators are being castigated for daring to suggest (even when asked) that maybe a cross on a hill is a little bit exclusive? Is it not possible to make the point that a cross is a religious symbol without also being accused of being anti-Christmas?

You mention the UK - I lived there for years - and at least there people are very much more aware that many other people can have different religions or none. In Ireland it feels like we are still stuck at a default position of "everyone is Catholic".

swampgas

expectationlost wrote: »

Video of the Carrauntoohil Cross being cut down sent to journalists http://www.thejournal.ie/carrauntoohil-cross-3-1810988-Dec2014/

oh dear

Well that's definitely the end of the metal fatigue hypothesis!

Cabaal

swampgas wrote: »

Well that's definitely the end of the metal fatigue hypothesis!

Nah, they are holding a sparkler near it. The metal just happened to get tired at the same time

I see this cutting as gods will, if God didn't want it to happen he could have stopped it

Maybe he wanted the locals to repaint the cross and this is the action that enabled it?

recedite

God was never happy with this cross; it was supposed to come fitted with flashing lights, but they never worked properly. That's why He sent the heathen to smite it down.
Apparently the iron cross was donated by Liebherr, the German engineering firm in Killarney who make cranes, but there is no truth to the rumour that "Gott mitt uns" was inscribed on it.

Dades

expectationlost wrote: »

Video of the Carrauntoohil Cross being cut down sent to journalists http://www.thejournal.ie/carrauntoohil-cross-3-1810988-Dec2014/
oh dear

I'm astounded that this was done by people primarily complaining about schools. It just seems such a random, counterproductive action.

expectationlost wrote: »

Atheist Irelands statement this morning

A good statement, and a necessary one.

I suggested early in this thread this was not a battle AI should choose to fight, and it seems that they have since decided to make it very clear they didn't proactively get involved.

Shrap

Ha! Gosh, we DO have militant atheists in Ireland. Who knew?! Oh...and, em...down with this sort of thing :P

Cabaal

Shrap wrote: »

Ha! Gosh, we DO have militant atheists in Ireland. Who knew?! Oh...and, em...down with this sort of thing :P

yeah, but they are still not burning, bombing or killing people so the religious one's are far worse

shruikan2553

Shrap wrote: »

Ha! Gosh, we DO have militant atheists in Ireland. Who knew?! Oh...and, em...down with this sort of thing :P

The poor Catholics now have something to use when they make claims of being oppressed. An atheist cutting down a cross as a form of protest against being oppressed...

Its not exactly ISIS or holocaust but it will have to do.

Hotblack Desiato

Who knew the KLF were planning a comeback?

PopePalpatine

robindch wrote: »

Did either of these get posted? Don't think so.

Cora Sherlock weighs in. We've reached Stalin by the third paragraph. Original screed here

I'm sure some of her mates are ready to strike back.

Shrap

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Who knew the KLF were planning a comeback?

I know! Perhaps the Kopyright Liberation Front have annexed the felled cross as a symbol of direct action. They're justified and they're ancient.....but what would Christ say? Probably that the Romans have copyright on the cross, in fairness. He wasn't the only one crucified.

Still though....punk is not dead. I'm claiming this one for the punks and fcuk the atheists.

Absoluvely

Shrap wrote: »

Ha! Gosh, we DO have militant atheists in Ireland. Who knew?! Oh...and, em...down with this sort of thing :P

What makes you so sure they were atheists? Theists of all religions suffer grievances over the Catholic domination of schools too, Catholics included.

Shrap

Absoluvely wrote: »

What makes you so sure they were atheists? Theists of all religions suffer grievances over the Catholic domination of schools too, Catholics included.

You're quite right! Sorry! However, I am also the person who was most convinced it was metal fatigue, so I'm not clutching at any more straws here, it's your turn ;-)

jank

expectationlost wrote: »

Atheist Irelands statement this morning


https://www.facebook.com/AtheistIreland/posts/10152870872549017

We have never thought it important enough to even discuss religious symbols on mountains as we never even knew they were up there.

If AI are going to come out with this and they then subsequently peddle/lobby their AI viewpoint (religious symbols = bad etc..) with an aim of a larger goal (which of course they have a right to), then perhaps they should stay silent on this one as it shows them up massively. They cannot cry afterwards if people criticise them.

Seriously though, no one in the whole organisation knew that on some Irish summits there are crosses? Really? I think it shows massive ignorance on their part. I know there is a rural/urban divide in most of these interest groups but come on!

The last paragraph is like it was written by a 12 year old that has taken his ball home from the playground. AI are normally a slick operation, this statement is anything but.

Volvoair

its back up again.....
http://www.thejournal.ie/carrauntoohil-cross-repaired-1807277-Nov2014/

EoghanIRL

Volvoair wrote: »

its back up again.....
http://www.thejournal.ie/carrauntoohil-cross-repaired-1807277-Nov2014/

Thank god. Does this count as a miracle ?

shruikan2553

jank wrote: »

If AI are going to come out with this and they then subsequently peddle/lobby their AI viewpoint (religious symbols = bad etc..) with an aim of a larger goal (which of course they have a right to), then perhaps they should stay silent on this one as it shows them up massively. They cannot cry afterwards if people criticise them.

Seriously though, no one in the whole organisation knew that on some Irish summits there are crosses? Really? I think it shows massive ignorance on their part. I know there is a rural/urban divide in most of these interest groups but come on!

The last paragraph is like it was written by a 12 year old that has taken his ball home from the playground. AI are normally a slick operation, this statement is anything but.

Its hardly their fault when people are waiting to twist what they say. They would have to stay silent on everything to prevent that.

If you dont climb many mountains how would you know?

Turtwig

Shrap wrote: »

Ha! Gosh, we DO have militant atheists in Ireland. Who knew?! Oh...and, em...down with this sort of thing :P

Just wait until they steal the holy stone of clonrichert!

jank

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Its hardly their fault when people are waiting to twist what they say. They would have to stay silent on everything to prevent that.

Admitting that they didn't even know these crosses existed yet somehow feel compelled to offer the party line will be seen as reactionary and divisive to the mainstream of Ireland and the local people who, you know live in the area and know more about Carrauntoohil than some blogger from South Dublin. If they put their foot in it, then it is nobodies fault but their own.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If you dont climb many mountains how would you know?

Kinda makes my previous point.

expectationlost

jank wrote: »

If AI are going to come out with this and they then subsequently peddle/lobby their AI viewpoint (religious symbols = bad etc..) with an aim of a larger goal (which of course they have a right to), then perhaps they should stay silent on this one as it shows them up massively. They cannot cry afterwards if people criticise them.

Seriously though, no one in the whole organisation knew that on some Irish summits there are crosses? Really? I think it shows massive ignorance on their part. I know there is a rural/urban divide in most of these interest groups but come on!

The last paragraph is like it was written by a 12 year old that has taken his ball home from the playground. AI are normally a slick operation, this statement is anything but.

ah it wasn't really a Statement just an exasperated facebook post, because they were getting criticism from all sides, written before they knew of the video, lighten up.

obplayer

jank wrote: »

Admitting that they didn't even know these crosses existed yet somehow feel compelled to offer the party line will be seen as reactionary and divisive to the mainstream of Ireland and the local people who, you know live in the area and know more about Carrauntoohil than some blogger from South Dublin. If they put their foot in it, then it is nobodies fault but their own.



Kinda makes my previous point.

So if you have never known about something which would upset you but then find out about it, you should still not be upset because you should have known sooner? So if I find my wife has been having sex with the neighbour then, because I never knew, when I do know I should be ok with it? 'Shure it did me no harm for all these years!'

jank

obplayer wrote: »

So if you have never known about something which would upset you but then find out about it, you should still not be upset because you should have known sooner? So if I find my wife has been having sex with the neighbour then, because I never knew, when I do know I should be ok with it? 'Shure it did me no harm for all these years!'

If you are comparing the emotional distress of finding your wife/husband in bed with a neighbour to finding out that there is a cross on a mountain that you never climbed than I frankly do not know what to say.

Turtwig

jank wrote: »

If you are comparing the emotional distress of finding your wife/husband in bed with a neighbour to finding out that there is a cross on a mountain that you never climbed than I frankly do not know what to say.

Clearly they're not making that comparison. The mode used is asking you to consider whether being previously unaware of something means you can't object to it once you become aware of it.

Husband in bed being an example to illustrate this. In the poster's context the mode of comparison has nothing to do with emotional distress. It's the fact that a person who was once oblivious of something is now aware of it. A brilliant example if I may say so.

Your attempt to dissuade it was frankly terrible.

Peregrinus

Well, except there is a point behind what Jank says. The initial comments attributed to AI turned out to have been made on the incorrect assumption that Carrauntoohil summit is in public ownership; those comments were later retracted. Now we seem to have someone from AI saying that they had never been aware that there was a cross on top of Carrauntoohil until it was taken down. There has been a cross there since the early 1950s, during which time thousands and thousands of people have climbed the mountain, many of them presumably atheists or others having strong feelings about the social position of the Catholic church in Ireland. If the cross didn't impinge on the consciousness of Atheist Ireland in all that time, you have to reckon it can't have been giving that much offence.

The overall impression created, I regret to say, is of a knee-jerk reaction - "It's a cross; we must object to it; we'll rationalise exactly why later". That's not a good look. The cross is a public expression of religious faith. AI risks making itself look like a bunch of people who will instinctively object to any public expression of religious faith, demand that public policy enforce their objections and offer ill-thought-out justifications for the demand. If they don't lift their game they'll end up being pilloried in the Fully Baked Left Wing Vegan Cookies thread.

jank

Turtwig wrote: »

Clearly they're not making that comparison. The mode used is asking you to consider whether being previously unaware of something means you can't object to it once you become aware of it.

Well, clearly they are in one sense but moving on...

Turtwig wrote: »

Husband in bed being an example to illustrate this. In the poster's context the mode of comparison has nothing to do with emotional distress. It's the fact that a person who was once oblivious of something is now aware of it. A brilliant example if I may say so.

This cross was not some secret hidden in the depths of the Vatican vault under lock and key. Anyone with two legs can walk up there and see it for themselves. Google has plenty of pictures of it as well. In other words it was in the public sphere for for the last 60 year. A partner cheating on you is generally a) private b) a secret, until it becomes known more widely.

This cross was no secret, it is on top of the highest point in Ireland. You would think that Atheist Ireland would know about these crosses. This shows them as either a) lacking general knowledge of the country they claim to represent and/or b) reactionary as once they did find out (though the general media) they objected to it, just cause, and finally that these crosses were no big deal in the first place since it never came up on the radar.

Criticism is more than justified if people are calling them out on this. One cannot have it every way.

Do AI have any Kerry members or mountain climbers? Or is it primarily an organisation of middle class Dubliners. Maybe they are not as inclusive as they claim to be.

kylith

“What can we expect next? Will these people start burning down churches or attacking people on their way to mass?” - Fine Gael TD Brendan Griffin


Talk about hysterical overreaction!

Hotblack Desiato

jank wrote: »

Do AI have any Kerry members or mountain climbers? Or is it primarily an organisation of middle class Dubliners. Maybe they are not as inclusive as they claim to be.

Seriously, you are surprised that more rural and isolated areas of this country remain significantly more indoctrinated than average, and this is somehow AI's fault?

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Seriously, you are surprised that more rural and isolated areas of this country remain significantly more indoctrinated than average, and this is somehow AI's fault?

Well, could it be AI's fault that you seem to think that people from Kerry and mountain climbers are "signficantly more indoctrinated than average"?

Seriously, you risk giving the impression that you think people who disagree with you do so because they are indoctrinated, as if you assume it to be impossible that anyone could disagree with you as the outcome of their own independent thought processes. Let's hope people don't impute that view also to AI. As a technique for winning hearts and minds, manifesting an assumption that those fail to accept your views are "indoctrinated" is somewhat counter-productive.