Religion's irony bypass

fisgon

A month or two ago there was a British teenage girl who fled to Syria to fight a Jihad with Isis. She was inspired by her religious faith to fight in a holy war. Her family were pictured afterwards, in a press conference, saying that they were praying to Allah to have their daughter back.

My first thought of course was, have these people no sense of irony? The very reason she is in Syria in the first place is because of their allah. They are appealing to their religion to fix a problem that it caused in the first place.

This can be seen over an over again, religion's utter irony bypass. And now the new Pope weighs in. Frankie was lecturing the EU recently, and gave us the priceless quote...

"there has been growing mistrust on the part of citizens towards institutions considered to be aloof, engaged in laying down rules perceived as insensitive to individual peoples, if not downright harmful,” he told MEPs.

Does the man have any conception of the irony of this statement, coming from the head of an institution like the church, which specialises in arbitrary, insensitive dogma? Utter irony bypass.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11252345/Pope-Francis-warns-European-idea-replaced-by-bureaucratic-technicalities-of-EU.html

the_monkey

Yep, the simple answer is it's all utter utter utter utter brainwashing TRIPE !!!
The fact we have to "respect" it is the biggest joke..

All of it, Christianity, Islam, Judiasm ... whatever ...

lazygal

I don't get the praying thing. So is it true that God or whoever, despite billions praying to him/her/them, only pays attention in certain cases? There was a post in t-udder forum with a link to some story about a woman who gets people out of purgatory and her 'visitations' make God or whoever out to be a right sadist, seeing as he let some people in for mumbling the right phrase whereas others weren't so lucky.

robindch

fisgon wrote: »

My first thought of course was, have these people no sense of irony?

Religion is an irony-free zone at the best of times.

wretcheddomain

lazygal wrote: »

I don't get the praying thing. So is it true that God or whoever, despite billions praying to him/her/them, only pays attention in certain cases? There was a post in t-udder forum with a link to some story about a woman who gets people out of purgatory and her 'visitations' make God or whoever out to be a right sadist, seeing as he let some people in for mumbling the right phrase whereas others weren't so lucky.

It has to be the most self-centred idea ever concocted. The idea that God is responsible for "miracles", such as at Lourdes, is one such example. If it were true, it would mean God chose a handful of individuals among hundreds of millions of visitors to live that extra bit longer.

The question then arises - why did God ignore the prayers of everyone else? Moreover, if God is responsible for curing the illness, isn't he also responsible for maintaining that illness in those he does not cure? The spokesmen of religion will claim we cannot understand the mind of God.

Well, if this is true, how can they claim to know the mind of God should he decide to engage in a miracle? The whole affair just falls apart, leaving God looking like an imaginary elephant in the corner of the room.

Cabaal

wretcheddomain wrote: »

It has to be the most self-centred idea ever concocted. The idea that God is responsible for "miracles", such as at Lourdes, is one such example. If it were true, it would mean God chose a handful of individuals among hundreds of millions of visitors to live that extra bit longer.

The question then arises - why did God ignore the prayers of everyone else? Moreover, if God is responsible for curing the illness, isn't he also responsible for maintaining that illness in those he does not cure? The spokesmen of religion will claim we cannot understand the mind of God.

Well, if this is true, how can they claim to know the mind of God should he decide to engage in a miracle? The whole affair just falls apart, leaving God looking like an imaginary elephant in the corner of the room.

Pfft... Easy.

God works in mysterious ways.

Brown Bomber

fisgon wrote: »

A month or two ago there was a British teenage girl who fled to Syria to fight a Jihad with Isis. She was inspired by her religious faith to fight in a holy war. Her family were pictured afterwards, in a press conference, saying that they were praying to Allah to have their daughter back.

My first thought of course was, have these people no sense of irony? The very reason she is in Syria in the first place is because of their allah. They are appealing to their religion to fix a problem that it caused in the first place.

A couple of points:


1) How do you know she isn't mentally ill? Like the murdering Jewish and Christian "bedroom radicals"?
2) It's not as straightforward as you pretend. See if you can spot the cataylyst here:


"But when the civil war in Syria flared, Aqsa grew increasingly concerned about the violence. She grew more religious, praying and reading the Quran."


3) This is from the parents perspective:


"We used to tell her ... this is not Islam, some of these groups are not Islam. They are doing wrong things which we don't approve of. Obviously, no Muslim approves this."


''We are against all this ISIS carrying on. This is no Islam. Islam is peace. Any killing we are against, whoever it is. That's what we have been taught by our prophet -- peace be upon him," Muzaffar says."


Therefore, no actually irony.

Cabaal

Brown Bomber wrote: »

1) How do you know she isn't mentally ill? .

To be fair, shouldn't we ask the same question for any person that talks to an invisible friend?

One persons view that something is a mental illness is another persons faith.

fisgon

Brown Bomber wrote: »

A couple of points:


1) How do you know she isn't mentally ill? Like the murdering Jewish and Christian "bedroom radicals"?
2) It's not as straightforward as you pretend. See if you can spot the cataylyst here:


"But when the civil war in Syria flared, Aqsa grew increasingly concerned about the violence. She grew more religious, praying and reading the Quran."


3) This is from the parents perspective:


"We used to tell her ... this is not Islam, some of these groups are not Islam. They are doing wrong things which we don't approve of. Obviously, no Muslim approves this."


''We are against all this ISIS carrying on. This is no Islam. Islam is peace. Any killing we are against, whoever it is. That's what we have been taught by our prophet -- peace be upon him," Muzaffar says."


Therefore, no actually irony.

I think you have just proved my point about an irony bypass.

Brown Bomber

Cabaal wrote: »

To be fair, shouldn't we ask the same question for any person that talks to an invisible friend?

One persons view that something is a mental illness is another persons faith.

Obviously I am not talking about "one person's view", I am talking clinically.

Brown Bomber

fisgon wrote: »

I think you have just proved my point about an irony bypass.

I don't. I just see you ducking questions.


Can you really not see the contrast between your claim:


"The very reason she is in Syria in the first place is because of their allah"


and the reality?:


"But when the civil war in Syria flared, Aqsa grew increasingly concerned about the violence. She grew more religious, praying and reading the Quran."

shruikan2553

The pope himself could kick a puppy into a crowd at the Vatican and then speak about how they should be caring towards all animals and nobody would bat an eye lid.

Any discussion on the matter would be people with agendas or taking it out of context.

kylith

Brown Bomber wrote: »

A couple of points:


1) How do you know she isn't mentally ill? Like the murdering Jewish and Christian "bedroom radicals"?
2) It's not as straightforward as you pretend. See if you can spot the cataylyst here:


"But when the civil war in Syria flared, Aqsa grew increasingly concerned about the violence. She grew more religious, praying and reading the Quran."


3) This is from the parents perspective:


"We used to tell her ... this is not Islam, some of these groups are not Islam. They are doing wrong things which we don't approve of. Obviously, no Muslim approves this."


''We are against all this ISIS carrying on. This is no Islam. Islam is peace. Any killing we are against, whoever it is. That's what we have been taught by our prophet -- peace be upon him," Muzaffar says."


Therefore, no actually irony.

Her parents are wrong though, the Koran encourages violence on those who reject Islam.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts
of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every
fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

shruikan2553

kylith wrote: »

Her parents are wrong though, the Koran encourages violence on those who reject Islam.

Maybe its like the bible and exams where you have 5 things but you pick out 3 and the rest don't apply.

Brown Bomber

kylith wrote: »

Her parents are wrong though, the Koran encourages violence on those who reject Islam.

Since you feel more qualified than Muslims to tell us what the Quran says I am assuming you have read the Quran and the ahaditha so could you now please put those quotes into context?

Mr. CooL ICE

I don't get your point. Are you saying that if somebody becomes more religious, they are probably mentally ill?

fisgon

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Can you really not see the contrast between your claim:


"The very reason she is in Syria in the first place is because of their allah"


and the reality?:


"But when the civil war in Syria flared, Aqsa grew increasingly concerned about the violence. She grew more religious, praying and reading the Quran."

You may have a point, but you are not expressing it very well, as I haven't a clue what it is. In fact, here you seem to be supporting my point.

When war started, she got more religious. Spent more time praying to Allah. So she went to Syria to fight for this same Allah. Her parents appeal to this same Allah for her return.

fisgon

Brown Bomber wrote: »

"But when the civil war in Syria flared, Aqsa grew increasingly concerned about the violence. She grew more religious, praying and reading the Quran."


3) This is from the parents perspective:

"We used to tell her ... this is not Islam, some of these groups are not Islam. They are doing wrong things which we don't approve of. Obviously, no Muslim approves this."

''We are against all this ISIS carrying on. This is no Islam. Islam is peace. Any killing we are against, whoever it is. That's what we have been taught by our prophet -- peace be upon him," Muzaffar says."

Therefore, no actually irony.

Ah yes, the old "real Islam" argument. And yet, if we had an ISIS member on this forum, he would tell you - and the girl's parents - that you weren't following the real Islam. He would say that it is necessary to impose Islam by force, and to take back muslim lands by violence. You would support your argument by verses from the Koran, he would too, and we would get into a never ending circular argument.

Your only argument for defending your idea that you are representing the "real" islam, is that you say so. And theirs too. We are the real Islam, because we say we are, both sides - and all the others too, the Sunnis and Shias, the Wahabbis and Sufis - say.

Islam is what muslims do. You don't get to decide what is "the real islam", and this is why these psychopaths have so much power, that you guys wash your hands of them, pretend they are not "real" Islam and that they are not your responsibility. But they come from the same source as you, devotion to Allah, the Koran etc. They exist because you exist. By your unquestioning devotion to a book that contains such fascistic exhortations to impose islam with the sword, as has been quoted on this thread, you allow these murderers to exist. You are from the same philosophical family.

The girl who went to fight with ISIS was a muslim. This is why she went. To fight for Allah. ISIS are muslims too, fighting for Allah. The parents when they pray are muslims, praying to the Allah for the return of their daughter, the same Allah that she believes inspired her to go in the first place. If you can't see the irony in that situation then you really are proving my point.

Cabaal

I find it amusing that BB seems to be able to decide the real faith from the wrong faith.

BB, Who are you to question ISIS followers?
They are merely following Allah, the fact that some people take a different message does not make there message any less right.

shruikan2553

No true Scotsman comes to mind.

Dades

Brown Bomber wrote: »

1) How do you know she isn't mentally ill?

We don't - but there's no reason to posit it either (except as an spurious attempt to undermine fisgon's post).

Unless you're putting forward the idea that increased religiosity is a sign of mental illness?

Brown Bomber

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Since you feel more qualified than Muslims to tell us what the Quran says I am assuming you have read the Quran and the ahaditha so could you now please put those quotes into context?

Im not that hopeful that you are going to do this so allow me the copy a previous post, Im educating people since 2011 apparently.

The reality was that it was explaining the divine intervention that led to a famous victory for the Muslims (believers) over the Meccanites (unbelievers) in the Battle of Badr. The Muslims were significantly outnumbered but they still won the battle. The verse relates to this. Supposedly Allah had his Angels fighting alongside the Muslims (believers) in the battle which led to victory. The message of violence was not one against infidels (you and me) but against the "unbelievers" in a specific battle.

May I ask your source for the out of context quotes.

Brown Bomber

Cabaal wrote: »

I find it amusing that BB seems to be able to decide the real faith from the wrong faith.

BB, Who are you to question ISIS followers?
They are merely following Allah, the fact that some people take a different message does not make there message any less right.

And I find it amusing that in a thread on irony you cannot see that you are doing this yourself.

Brown Bomber

fisgon wrote: »

You may have a point, but you are not expressing it very well,

Youll find I didnt make a point, you did, I asked you a follow up question on it. Twice now. Still unanswered, so I#ll rephrase.

What is the difference between your statement

"The very reason she is in Syria in the first place is because of their allah"

And the reality,

"But when the civil war in Syria flared, Aqsa grew increasingly concerned about the violence. She grew more religious, praying and reading the Quran."

fisgon

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Youll find I didnt make a point, you did, ,

No, you were clearly trying to make a point with your meaningless question, though what it is exactly is anyone's guess.

So why don't you answer your question the way you wish that I would answer it, or make your point, or say anything half-way coherent, instead of speaking in riddles and non-sequiturs and avoiding the issue.

There have been many valid arguments made against your positions, and you haven't properly addressed any of them.

Brown Bomber

fisgon wrote: »

No, you were clearly trying to make a point with your meaningless question, though what it is exactly is anyone's guess.

So why don't you answer your question the way you wish that I would answer it, or make your point, or say anything half-way coherent, instead of speaking in riddles and non-sequiturs and avoiding the issue.

OK. Let me break it down for you. This girl has always been Muslim. According to her parents, who I am sure know her better than you, she became radicalised due to the "violence" she seen being carried out during the Syrian Civil War.

This is completely different to your ill-informed claim ""The very reason she is in Syria in the first place is because of their allah"

I hope this clears things up.

fisgon wrote: »

There have been many valid arguments made against your positions, and you haven't properly addressed any of them.

My positions? I'm not aware I have expressed any positions beyond:
1. In the case of the Muslima and her family there is no irony. (see below)
2. We should obtain the true meaning of a text by understanding the context. (self-evident)
3. The situation you brought up is more nuanced than your reductionist conclusions (see above)

Regarding 1,above,

You have successfully argued against yourself that there is no Irony with your explanation that there are diffeerent shades of Muslim within Islam. My Islam which you seemed to fixate on is different to the British girl in Syria which is obviously different to her parent who have condemned her beliefs in no uncertain terms.

So - and this is the important part - when her Muslim parents pray for her safe return they are doing so with a different interpretation, understanding and beliefs on what it means to be a Muslim and therefore there is no irony.

Brown Bomber

Dades wrote: »

We don't - but there's no reason to posit it either (except as an spurious attempt to undermine fisgon's post).

Unless you're putting forward the idea that increased religiosity is a sign of mental illness?

No. What I am saying is that without further information we cannot assume anything as to her mental health and therefore we cannot rule this out as a factor.

fisgon

Brown Bomber wrote: »

No. What I am saying is that without further information we cannot assume anything as to her mental health and therefore we cannot rule this out as a factor.

Hundreds of European Muslims have gone to fight for ISIS. Are they all mentally ill too?

Brown Bomber

fisgon wrote: »

Hundreds of European Muslims have gone to fight for ISIS. Are they all mentally ill too?

I don't know for two reasons. 1) I have not seen their medical records 2) Even if I had I am not qualified to interpret them.

fisgon

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK. Let me break it down for you.

Why didn't you just do this in the first place?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

she became radicalised due to the "violence" she seen being carried out during the Syrian Civil War.

So your point is that it was the violence that she saw that inspired her to go to Syria? Nothing to do with her religion? And yet in the original quote you mentioned that "she grew more religious, praying and reading the Quran." You do realize that you said this, right? She saw violence, became more religious, which presumably means devoting herself more to Allah, and went to Syria to fight with ISIS. The religion was clearly a major factor in her going, trying to pretend otherwise is naive or dishonest.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

My Islam which you seemed to fixate on is different to the British girl in Syria which is obviously different to her parent who have condemned her beliefs in no uncertain terms.

So - and this is the important part - when her Muslim parents pray for her safe return they are doing so with a different interpretation, understanding and beliefs on what it means to be a Muslim and therefore there is no irony.

Yes, I have already addressed this, this idea of the "right" islam, the "true" islam. This is a weasely argument, washing your hands of the actions of your fellow muslims as if they have nothing to do with you or your beliefs. You have the same holy book, the same god called Allah.

Where did Aqsa's belief in islam and Allah come from originally? From her family. Why was she a muslim at all? Because she was brought up in a muslim family. Just because these beliefs are not exactly the same does not negate the fact that she is in Syria partly because she was brought up as a muslim by her family. Would she be in Syria if she had been brought up in a secular family? The answer is no.

To repeat, Aqsa went to Syria to fight for Allah. Isis are killing for Allah. Her parents are praying to Allah for her return.

Brown Bomber

fisgon wrote: »

This is a weasely argument, washing your hands of the actions of your fellow muslims as if they have nothing to do with you or your beliefs. You have the same holy book, the same god called Allah.

Before we go any further, I'd like you to explain why you are so sure I am a Muslim. I haven't said so on this thread. Thanks.

smcgiff

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Before we go any further, I'd like you to explain why you are so sure I am a Muslim. I haven't said so on this thread. Thanks.

When you say "My Islam" are we to take you're not muslim?

smcgiff

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I don't know for two reasons. 1) I have not seen their medical records 2) Even if I had I am not qualified to interpret them.

But you are qualified to suggest that this girl may be?

Brown Bomber

smcgiff wrote: »

When you say "My Islam" are we to take you're not muslim?

I'd suggest you follow the timeline here.

smcgiff wrote: »

But you are qualified to suggest that this girl may be?

What qualification is required to say "I don't know"?

smcgiff

Brown Bomber wrote: »

A couple of points:


1) How do you know she isn't mentally ill?

You're the one raising the possibility she might be mentally ill.

Brown Bomber

smcgiff wrote: »

You're the one raising the possibility she might be mentally ill.

... and you are disputing that "she might be mentally ill"?

smcgiff

Brown Bomber wrote: »

My Islam which you seemed to fixate on is different to the British girl in Syria which is obviously different to her parent who have condemned her beliefs in no uncertain terms.

What has the timeline got to do with anything or have you renounced Islam in the last few hours?

smcgiff

Brown Bomber wrote: »

... and you are disputing that "she might be mentally ill"?

Because she is following the tennants of her faith? I see where you might get that idea.

Brown Bomber

smcgiff wrote: »

What has the timeline got to do with anything

Everything.
Your are quoting me from post 26. Which was in response to post 18.

fisgon wrote: »

... you weren't following the real Islam. ... You would support your argument by verses from the Koran...Your only argument for defending your idea that you are representing the "real" islam, is that you say so...you guys wash your hands of them, pretend they are not "real" Islam and that they are not your responsibility. But they come from the same source as you, devotion to Allah, the Koran etc. They exist because you exist. By your unquestioning devotion to a book that contains such fascistic exhortations to impose islam with the sword, as has been quoted on this thread, you allow these murderers to exist. You are from the same philosophical family.

It has just occured to me what an ugly personal attack that was on the Muslim me. Shameful.

Brown Bomber

smcgiff wrote: »

Because she is following the tennants of her faith? I see where you might get that idea.

Right, clearly you aren't going to answer a simple question so best for everyone if we don't take things further off topic.

smcgiff

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Everything.
Your are quoting me from post 26. Which was in response to post 18.

Words. Just words.

Good night.

Dades

Brown Bomber wrote: »

No. What I am saying is that without further information we cannot assume anything as to her mental health and therefore we cannot rule this out as a factor.

We can't rule out she isn't an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., either. However, bringing up one of endless unevidenced possibilities is not a valid argument and only muddies the water. It is smoke and mirrors - and it is disingenuous.

So unless you want to offer some supporting evidence of your suggestion of mental illness, we'll all move on, thanks.

In fact, to get this thread back on track let's maybe make some things clear:

- Mental illness is a red herring. Enough said.
- Brown Bomber is not a Muslim. That assumption was incorrect - let's move on and skip the dance-off.

Zillah

I think it has less to do with irony so much as unmitigated gall. When the Pope lectures others on safeguarding children he knows exactly what he's doing. They've known exactly what they're doing, with brazen chutzpah, for centuries. Don't forget, everyone above the rank of regular priest is a politician as much as he is a man of faith.

They're staying on message is what they're doing.

robindch

Zillah - off-topic, but here's your avatar in oils in the Leopold Museum in Vienna

Zillah

Never before has a post been so off-topic as this

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

Never before has a post been so off-topic as this

And that's saying something for in here. :P

fisgon

Zillah wrote: »

I think it has less to do with irony so much as unmitigated gall. When the Pope lectures others on safeguarding children he knows exactly what he's doing. They've known exactly what they're doing, with brazen chutzpah, for centuries.

You see, I don't know if this is it, exactly. We may be saying the same thing, but for me they are not aware at all of the massive hypocrisy in their pronouncements. When he lectures the EU for being "aloof" and "insensitive", it never even occurs to him that such adjectives could be applied to his own church. They simply block out any kind of thinking that may suggest that they are wrong, that they have ever been wrong, or that they could ever be wrong, and it never occurs to the pope that they are not in a position to lecture people.

It is a habit of mind that religious people have, I believe, a habit fostered over years of indoctrination into believing that you hold the truth. If something inconvenient comes up then you ignore it, or rationalize it away. You never imagine that your worldview is lacking, or erroneous in any way, because to do so would open the floodgates towards total doubt. You have to make yourself impervious to the irony and inconsistencies in your own position, years of mental gymnastics prepare you for this.

Hence it never, ever occurs to the parents of the muslim girl who went to Syria to look at their own faith as the source of her leaving, and it never even crosses the pope's mind that his own words could easily be applied to his organization as much as to the EU. If you are religious, and want to stay this way, you have to cultivate this kind of blindness, this utter lack of self-knowledge.

Brown Bomber

fisgon wrote: »

When he lectures the EU for being "aloof" and "insensitive", it never even occurs to him that such adjectives could be applied to his own church.

Pope Francis Attacks Bureaucracy Within The Roman Catholic Church

So that is everything debunked now, have you got anything else?

fisgon

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Pope Francis Attacks Bureaucracy Within The Roman Catholic Church

So that is everything debunked now, have you got anything else?

The Pope is criticising the Curia, the Vatican bureaucracy, a tiny part of the administration of the church. My point is that his whole institution, the rules, laws, dogma, its history and attitudes and mindset, are and have been described as "aloof", "insensitive" and "harmful", and this is what he seems incapable of confronting. Criticising the Curia, and being aware of the deep inconsistencies in your own position, are not close to the same thing.

You seem to think you have debunked something, though it is not clear what this is. You simply gave up trying to defend your position on the muslim girl Aqsa, possibly realising that you didn't actually have any arguments other than non-sequiturs and red herrings.

It is hilarious, you are like a player on a football team that has just lost 10-0 - a team that has spent large parts of the game sitting on the ground - doing a victory dance and a lap of honour.

Brian Shanahan

fisgon wrote: »

It is hilarious, you are like a player on a football team that has just lost 10-0 - a team that has spent large parts of the game sitting on the ground - doing a victory dance and a lap of honour.

If boards had a qoute of the month banner, this would get on it right away.

Awesome line.

fisgon

A group of middle-aged and elderly celibate, childless, unmarried men lecturing society on "The meaning of marriage", and "the child-rearing process."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-allowing-same-sex-would-be-grave-injustice-1.2024464

Utter and complete irony bypass.