What the feck has gone wrong at the big PL clubs?

Harry Palmr

Everywhere you look, the bigger clubs bar Chelsea are in some sort of crisis (admittedly some are bigger than others) - Spurs got out of jail yesterday with a win over 10 man Hull, if that had been a defeat you can be sure Potch would be adorning this front page.



Is it coincidence? To me it feels like they are suffering a sort of bloated entropy, created by ever bigger budgets, bigger expectations, more people (players and staff) in more positions of conflicting influence who muddy the water, globe-trotting pre-season tours of no value whatsoever in playing/preparation terms, media obsession which stokes up the fanbase and puts pressure on managers/CEOs to do something/anything.

Obviously each club has specific woes and potential fixes, but they all seem to have one thing in common - a collection of managers who cannot see the wood for the trees and so make the necessary decisions to fix things.

wandatowell

I think one issue that is affecting the bigger clubs is that the quality of players at the "smaller" teams is actually getting very high and if they aren't up to scratch on match day they can get punished.

Chelsea strengthened their weak spots.

Liverpool lost their best players and made too many signings together.

Utd new manager, rebuilding and new squad.

City, hungover from last season? Toure not as relentless as last season.

Arsenal, not really sure what the issue is. I thought they'd be right up there as Sanchez is a top player.

GavRedKing

For the first time in many years, Chelsea, so far anyway, are avoiding controversy and criticism, it makes for a refreshing change.

The only thing thats balanced out the league is apart from Chelsea and Southampton, the rest have had poor to shambolic starts, relative to what people would expect and predict from the teams.

You've got Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool all struggling for form and 3 teams at the start of the term, you'd expect to be making up an early title challenge.

I thin kthe league table looks a lot worse than it is, Southampton have a well documented run of playing the top 8 in their next 10 or 11 games so you'd expect them to drop points and leave in those around them, it leaves City as Chelseas nearest season long rival and I dont think the current gap is anything to get carried away with, we'll drop points in a run of games somewhere but whats shapening up to be the real drama of the year is we've got about 7 teams looking to finish top 4, Chelsea, Southampton, City, Utd, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal.

The transfer market has been inflated further by teams getting bigger payouts from the EPL TV deals, basically handing every club 60million, some have spent very well in the summer, some have blown it.

rob316

Its the money involved simple as, the UCL is the golden goose for every club/owner. Finishing in that Top 4 is the min. a top club should be aiming for, Liverpool after qualifying last year will be a disaster if they miss out again this year. Spurs have ambitions of been a top London club but can't get near to what they were a few years ago.

Harry Palmr

wandatowell

That's a good point, the TV money has given the medium sized clubs a major boost though I suppose we should wait for a full season to pass before declaring the league more equal opportunity.

catallus

Maybe they're not kicking the football with their heads enough?

adox

The standard of defending in England has been diabolical so far this season, hence the topsey turvery season.

What the cause of that is, is another debate.

Soups123

adox wrote: »

The standard of defending in England has been diabolical so far this season, hence the topsey turvery season.

What the cause of that is, is another debate.

I think its more about how players are developing, they are fitter and faster than ever and with the poor teams signing forward thinking players also with these attributes more goals are being scored

I think Wandatowells point is on the money though, the mid table teams have huge finances now and are spending more, I dont think the bigger clubs have increased there spend to net that off and with increased finance being directly related to England they are making good signings from the continent and beyond with the financial power they have.

I also think the WC is having an impact on a lot of the bigger teams, a large amount of players havent had an rest time and injuries at clubs like United, Arsenal & Liverpool are rife.

MD1990

The top teams have become obsessed with being entertaining. Apart from Chelsea all the top 7 from last year have a terrible backline & no good DM's.

Richard Hillman

The teams have been very badly run and or have a really bad culture at the club.

I am not really sure to why City are so bad at the moment. They have seemed to have lost their edge. The fanbase are not very demanding at Man City and the owner is quite hands off. They know they can get away with losing.

Arsenal have a rotten culture at the club. The players are mentally frail and Wenger is an accountant rather than a football manager.

Spurs pissed away over 100m on rubbish players in the last few years. They should be competing for the title.

As with Spurs, Liverpool have pissed away millions on bad players.

I was watching the Milan derby last night and there was a serious amount of crap on show. Both teams were pale comparisons to the Milan Derby of ten or so years ago. They were both clubs that were run awfully and went through years of signing bad players for large amounts of money.

greendom

MD1990 wrote: »

The top teams have become obsessed with being entertaining. Apart from Chelsea all the top 7 from last year have a terrible backline & no good DM's.

Southampton have 2 (good DMs) - probably explains why they've only conceded 5 goals so far this season.

Donnielighto

greendom wrote: »

Southampton have 2 (good DMs) - probably explains why they've only conceded 5 goals so far this season.

I've been impressed with blind for utd and though he's more box to box fellaini has given decent protection recently.

homerjay2005

adox wrote: »

What the cause of that is, is another debate.

a serious lack of top class center halves is possible factor!

Skylinehead

homerjay2005 wrote: »

a serious lack of top class center halves is possible factor!

There's very few top class centre halves anywhere at the moment, never mind the PL. Thiago Silva, Varane. That's about it for me. Below that you'd have the likes of Chiellini/Ramos/Kompany etc.

PhlegmyMoses

homerjay2005 wrote: »

a serious lack of top class center halves is possible factor!

Yeah but why is that? Spain have been notoriously short of good CBS as well and Italy, the home of these kind of players, has barely produced a CB of note in the last 10 years. A focus on attacking football in the last 15 years has hampered defending IMO.

Teams like Barca could get away with having Pique and Mascherano, both decent but not a patch on Baresi, Costacurta, Kohler, Cannavaro etc, because of their possession game and uniquely talented players like Messi, Iniesta and Xavi.

But as with all things in football, it's cyclical. In a couple of years, a team will come about that is incredible defensively and it will become fashionable to be a good defender again.

CSF

The recent TV deal has equipped the smaller teams to become stronger and hence we're seeing less drubbings, and more of what would previously have been considered upsets.

CSF

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yeah but why is that? Spain have been notoriously short of good CBS as well and Italy, the home of these kind of players, has barely produced a CB of note in the last 10 years. A focus on attacking football in the last 15 years has hampered defending IMO.

Teams like Barca could get away with having Pique and Mascherano, both decent but not a patch on Baresi, Costacurta, Kohler, Cannavaro etc, because of their possession game and uniquely talented players like Messi, Iniesta and Xavi.

But as with all things in football, it's cyclical. In a couple of years, a team will come about that is incredible defensively and it will become fashionable to be a good defender again.

Or alternatively, we may become biased due to preconceived ideas at one good team. Nowhere without the La Masia connections has been able to implement that style of football that successfully, yet everyone was going on like it was the only way forward at the time.

As for the standard of defending thing, it becomes harder because the standard of attacking player has increased also. It probably isn't just that, but is definitely a factor.

Ranchu

Financial fair play and tv money are closing the gap. Spurs and liverpool have both shown that spending lots of money will only get you so far and with the poorer teams able to bring in better players it's causing a few upsets.

In saying that I expect the table to look very similar to last years in May. Liverpool will lose out to someone for the champions league spot being the only difference.

PhlegmyMoses

CSF wrote: »

Or alternatively, we may become biased due to preconceived ideas at one good team. Nowhere without the La Masia connections has been able to implement that style of football that successfully, yet everyone was going on like it was the only way forward at the time.

As for the standard of defending thing, it becomes harder because the standard of attacking player has increased also. It probably isn't just that, but is definitely a factor.

Another issue is that defensive football is viewed as almost exclusively negative. Park the bus, managers criticising teams for setting up to counter, fans moaning because their team is boring, Stoke-ball. Nobody wants to be associated with that.

There is such thing as poor attacking football as well, which is what many teams do, but the criticisms aren't as strong. They're called gung-ho or maybe a bit defensively naive, but mostly a breath of fresh air and a team that tries to play the right way.

A balance is what is needed and what teams like Ronaldo-era United, Mourinho-era Chelsea and Invincibles-era Arsenal managed.

gucci

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yeah but why is that? Spain have been notoriously short of good CBS as well and Italy, the home of these kind of players, has barely produced a CB of note in the last 10 years.

The actual standard of player that Italy are producing now is actually quite shocking really. Look at Serie A, there is a massive lack of quality Italian players applying their trade in the top teams (with the exception of Juve)

PhlegmyMoses

gucci wrote: »

The actual standard of player that Italy are producing now is actually quite shocking really. Look at Serie A, there is a massive lack of quality Italian players applying their trade in the top teams (with the exception of Juve)

Italy never really produced the very elite attacking talents. Look at the great Ac Milan teams of the 80/90s. Their midfield and attackers were the likes of Gullit, Van Basten, Boban, Savicevic etc. Their defence was almost entirely Italian though, barring Desailly, who often played in midfield anyway.

The best Italian players in Juventus' great team in the 90s, barring Del Piero and Vialli, were Ferrara, Conte, Pessotto, Tachinnardi, Torricelli, Iuliano and they were all defenders or midfielders who knew how to defend.

Defenders were their bread and butter and they haven't produced a truly world class CB since Nesta and Cannavaro.

dfx-

rob316 wrote: »

Its the money involved simple as, the UCL is the golden goose for every club/owner. Finishing in that Top 4 is the min. a top club should be aiming for, Liverpool after qualifying last year will be a disaster if they miss out again this year. Spurs have ambitions of been a top London club but can't get near to what they were a few years ago.

To me, it is financial doping. Something La Liga is criticised for, but not EPL.

Sides in third or fourth (first and second are wrapped up by billionaires) don't care where they finish in the top four, sides outside the top four don't care what they do while overreaching and pay stupid money for players to get them to fourth for a season. Teams who are upper-mid table don't want to finish higher and risk jeopardising the next season's survival with a European campaign.

Teams mid-low table are relieved and happy to be still there, teams are at the bottom are desperate. Teams who go down are in danger of going out of business.

The only way to resolve it would be less TV money or remove the threat of relegation to increase the competitiveness.

Kharrell

Always been an advocate of 'defense wins you championships', whatever the sport. While that maybe too simplistic, perhaps better put is that defense, organisation and players willing to accept a role are the foundation of building a great team. Look at teams like Real Madrid, Seattle Seahawks, San Antonio Spurs, and to a lesser extent, Manchester City for relevance sake to the thread anyway, all last season climbed the mountain in their respective sport because of that foundation. Further beyond they had that extra quality to really push on from a offensive standpoint, and yes, it helps Real Madrid have the best player in football as of this time. Of course it does.

Liverpool nearly smashed that theory last season through a brand of blitz football in where they tried to destroy teams in the opening twenty to thirty minutes, knowing full well the defense wasn't going to be dependable, and then proceed to hit teams on the counter late on. That nearly worked for them. Had Liverpool conceded 10 less goals, instead of scoring 10 goals they did, would they have win the league? More than probably, yes. I think Liverpool last season from a purely football point of view will prove an example in years to come for the current and next generation of footballer, perhaps even manager in the UK and Ireland.

There is without question the standard of defending amongst the bigger clubs in the EPL has nose dived. That might be due to injuries, or the defensive system, or lack-of one from what it looks like. United, Liverpool, Arsenal and I suppose Spurs too have all been dealt blows injury wise over the last year or two. I'm sure any fellow United fan will vouch for the plague of injuries that have decimated the team this season in particular. In the case of Liverpool and Arsenal, there seems to be a lack of understanding in much of the above, their is no philosophy. No system in place. There probably is, you'd like to think there is since they are a professional football club, but just watching either team, I don't there is much emphasis on it outside of the defenders retaining possession given both coaches obsession with ball retention from the back. I've not watched much of Spurs this season, but prior to that, their issues seem result from playing a ridiculously high line with players perhaps not suited to it. Michael Dawson when he was still there in a high line is asking for trouble.

Manchester City is the odd one out of this as it seems their main man, Yaya Toure as either given up after getting possibly last big contract or his ability is naturally on his wane, and last season was his last big run. Their defense and system in regards to formation and positioning is questionable too, which is strange given how Pellegrin teams are usually far more organised.

Undoubtedly, the lesser teams have become better. The likes of Southampton, Newcastle (squad wise should never be struggling as much as they have done before their recent run of wins) as well as the smaller clubs have strengthened as pointed out too.

But as they've strengthened, the top clubs have weakened. Chelsea are the exception to this who pinpointed key areas, and strengthened them, big time.

Kharrell

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Italy never really produced the very elite attacking talents. Look at the great Ac Milan teams of the 80/90s. Their midfield and attackers were the likes of Gullit, Van Basten, Boban, Savicevic etc. Their defence was almost entirely Italian though, barring Desailly, who often played in midfield anyway.

The best Italian players in Juventus' great team in the 90s, barring Del Piero and Vialli, were Ferrara, Conte, Pessotto, Tachinnardi, Torricelli, Iuliano and they were all defenders or midfielders who knew how to defend.

Defenders were their bread and butter and they haven't produced a truly world class CB since Nesta and Cannavaro.

Looking from the outside, it seems a case of mentality shifting in Italian football over the past decade. Players could match their talent with their hunger to succeed back then. Looking at the names you mentioned, and compare them to many of the names in current crop of their national team. All flash, no substance.

Too Tough To Die

Poor investments, teams becoming stale and bad management.

TheDoc

Personally I think defending is the key reason. Modern players and newer players coming to the game now simply don't know how to defend, at all. The style at which they are taught is obscure. The changes to the game culture( not rules, but culture) is that contact is quickly becoming eliminated and the traits required in modern defenders seem vastly different to ten years ago.

As this continues the knowledge of defending properly is falling away from the game. Brendan Rodgers is a really good example. A relatively young manager, who is absolutely hapless at organising his team defensively and evenwith large investment has bought horrendous defenders.

Man City have spunked a big fee on Mangala who has athletic qualities, but looks braindead in terms of anticipation and reading the game defensievely.

Arsenal have had a somewhat shambolic defense for some time, further providing ascertion that Wenger was lucky with the defence he inherited on his arrival, and that he is clueless in organising a defence or identifying defensive qualities.

Mourinho is a manager from the old school, with a good understanding of defending and what is required in a good defender. Van Gaal would be somewhat the same imo, although granted has been blighted by injuries.

There was a notible change in how newly promoted, or mid table teams behaved against bigger clubs over the last 5-8 years. Noting the decline in defensive quality, teams are more confident in having a go, and carving open what are regarded as top teams.

Chelsea have some old school trained defenders in that team, and in reality its why they are so solid and strong. It was the pivot on which his first reign was such a success, and now he's been able to add more dimensions to attacking play to create what looks a serious footballing machine.

Personally feel this is something that will continue to manifest until its so unbelievably obvious in the next 3-5 seasons.

That's my take on it anyway. And when you watch pretty much any game this weekend, watch how the fullbacks get constantly caught out of position from marauding forward, or how they just dont seem that bothered to press a winger lining up a cross. Watch how many poor clearing headers you see. And watch how many defenders get caught ball watching this weekend.

Harry Palmr

TheDoc wrote: »

As this continues the knowledge of defending properly is falling away from the game. Brendan Rodgers is a really good example. A relatively young manager, who is absolutely hapless at organising his team defensively and evenwith large investment has bought horrendous defenders.

He hasn't bought bad defenders - he has put perfectly competent defenders in a chaotic set up as Rodgers isn't interested in defence. Agree with the rest.

greendom

TheDoc wrote: »

Personally I think defending is the key reason. Modern players and newer players coming to the game now simply don't know how to defend, at all. The style at which they are taught is obscure. The changes to the game culture( not rules, but culture) is that contact is quickly becoming eliminated and the traits required in modern defenders seem vastly different to ten years ago.

As this continues the knowledge of defending properly is falling away from the game. Brendan Rodgers is a really good example. A relatively young manager, who is absolutely hapless at organising his team defensively and evenwith large investment has bought horrendous defenders.

Man City have spunked a big fee on Mangala who has athletic qualities, but looks braindead in terms of anticipation and reading the game defensievely.

Arsenal have had a somewhat shambolic defense for some time, further providing ascertion that Wenger was lucky with the defence he inherited on his arrival, and that he is clueless in organising a defence or identifying defensive qualities.

Mourinho is a manager from the old school, with a good understanding of defending and what is required in a good defender. Van Gaal would be somewhat the same imo, although granted has been blighted by injuries.

There was a notible change in how newly promoted, or mid table teams behaved against bigger clubs over the last 5-8 years. Noting the decline in defensive quality, teams are more confident in having a go, and carving open what are regarded as top teams.

Chelsea have some old school trained defenders in that team, and in reality its why they are so solid and strong. It was the pivot on which his first reign was such a success, and now he's been able to add more dimensions to attacking play to create what looks a serious footballing machine.

Personally feel this is something that will continue to manifest until its so unbelievably obvious in the next 3-5 seasons.

That's my take on it anyway. And when you watch pretty much any game this weekend, watch how the fullbacks get constantly caught out of position from marauding forward, or how they just dont seem that bothered to press a winger lining up a cross. Watch how many poor clearing headers you see. And watch how many defenders get caught ball watching this weekend.

Rubbish none of the Invincibles defence were in the first team when Wenger joined the club

PhlegmyMoses

greendom wrote: »

Rubbish none of the Invincibles defence were in the first team when Wenger joined the club

And Arsenal's current defence is relatively strong when injuries (I know, I know..) aren't prevalent. Gibbs, Mertesacker, Koscielny and Debuchy is a pretty decent defence.

TheDoc

greendom wrote: »

Rubbish none of the Invincibles defence were in the first team when Wenger joined the club

Wenger has been at Arsenal how long?

That he got it right for 18 months isn't exactly compelling evidence