The Great Oil and Gas Robbery.

celticcrash

The Gas & Oil Robbery




The €420,000,000,000+ Ireland is giving away
Vast quantities of gas and oil have been discovered under Irish waters in the Atlantic Ocean over the past 15 years. The Government’s figures put the value of these reserves at €420 billion (€420,000,000,000), but this is a very conservative estimate. The real figure is likely to be much higher, especially as the global price of oil and gas rises (see explanation below*).
So what will the Government be spending these new-found riches on? The answer is: Nothing. This wealth will be leaving Ireland, thanks to a deal made between the corrupt Haughey government and multinational oil companies. Minister Ray Burke (later jailed for corruption) changed the law in 1987, reducing the State’s share in our offshore oil and gas from 50% to zero and abolishing royalties. In 1992, Minister Bertie Ahern reduced the tax rate for the profits made from the sale of these resources from 50% to 25%.
According to respected economist Colm Rapple, the amount of tax paid will be very low and will not be paid until many years into the operation of a gas or oil field, because the deal allows the companies to write off 100% of costs (even the anticipated cost of shutting down the operation!) before they declare the profits to be taxed (see www.colmrapple.com). In major oil/gas producing countries, the state takes an average (median) of 68% of the value of gas and oil.
While people in Ireland are suffering in a recession, being told to tighten their belts, to grin and bear the painful cuts to health, education and their dole, the pension levy, the giant oil companies of the world are preparing to remove Ireland’s valuable natural resources and divvy up the billions of euro of profits between their shareholders.
So the next time you hear a politician defending the Corrib Gas fiasco by mentioning the “national interest”, remember that Corrib actually represents a net loss to the Irish exchequer of tens of billions of euro.
One of the arguments you sometimes hear in defence of the Great Oil and Gas Giveaway has to do with “security of supply” – the idea that Ireland will be left without gas if the pipeline from Russia is cut off, and so we need to make it attractive for companies to bring gas ashore here. However, according to Bord Gais, “Ireland’s imported natural gas supplies are sourced from the North Sea. The possibility of gas supplies to Ireland from these sources being restricted is very remote.”
(See www.bordgais.ie/corporate)
And crucially, Ireland’s licensing law gives us no security of supply, because it allows the companies to export our gas rather than sell it to the Irish market.
++++++++++++++
*The figures in detail
€420 billion is a lot of money. However, the true value of Ireland’s gas and oil is probably much higher. Our figure is based on the estimate, issued by the Department of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources (DCENR) in 2006, that the amount of gas and oil in the Rockall and Porcupine basins, off Ireland’s west coast, is 10 BBOE (billion barrels of oil equivalent). Based on the average price of a barrel of oil for 2009 of $60, this works out at $600 billion, or €420 billion. This does not take account of further oil and gas reserves off Ireland’s south coast. The total volume of oil and gas which rightfully belongs to Ireland could be significantly higher. The DCENR has also published much higher estimates at various times. Also, as the global price of oil and gas rises in the coming years, the value of these Irish natural resources will rise further.
++++++++++++++
A better deal is possible
Several countries have recently changed their laws to reclaim a greater share of gas and oil wealth
Even supporters of the Corrib Gas project rarely try to defend the outrageously generous terms of Ireland’s gas exploration laws in public. Instead they rely on the myth that the deal, once done, cannot now be changed. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The existing deal already allows Ireland to halt work on the Corrib Gas field. The licensing terms state: “The Minister may ... require that specified exploration, exploitation, production or processing activities should cease ... in any case where the Minister is satisfied that it is desirable to do so in order to reduce the risk of injury to the person ... or damage to property or the environment.”
In fact, there is a worldwide trend of governments reclaiming ownership of privatised gas and oil reserves. In 2006 in Russia, the state-owned Gazprom took back control from Shell of the largest integrated oil and gas field in the world, Sakhalin-2, after Shell was accused of breaking environmental laws.
Bolivia nationalised its entire gas industry in 2006. At first, the reactions from the corporations and international markets in both cases were furious, with dire warnings given about how the countries would suffer from lost investment. But these warnings came to nothing: in the end the oil giants simply went along with these changes when they realised there were still enormous profits to be made.
There are many examples of successful nationalised oil and gas industries. Norway is one of the best examples of state-controlled extraction of gas and oil. Ironically, a significant chunk of the Corrib Gas profits will benefit the Norwegian people through Statoil, as it is majority-owned by the Norwegian government and has a 36% stake in Corrib.
Venezuela has begun nationalising the industry within the past two years. Most Venezuelans lived in degrading poverty throughout the 20th century, while enormous revenues from oil and gas went to foreign companies and a tiny Venezuelan elite. The government has redirected oil wealth into public spending, bringing health, education and dignity to the poor.
Even if Ireland’s gas and oil fields were not nationalised, hundreds of billions of euro could be raised if Ireland took a similar share in its own gas to that which applies in other countries.


OP opinion

Interesting that Charles Haughey Ray Burke and Bertie Ahern signed off on all these. Ray Bruke imprisoned for corruption. Charles Haughey and Bertie Ahearn`s repertation we all know.
Its my opinion that our government should call the contracts null and void,

reason being that it was sold off by corrupt politicians.
Also I don't believe that ministers should be given the power to sell of parts of Ireland with the stroke of a pen.

super_furry

Why do I feel like I'm on a Freeman of the land facebook page all of a sudden?

etoughguy

Didnt Eddie Hobbs write an article (or even a book not sure) about this recently?

celticcrash

Sorry, I have nothing to do with freemen.

Don Kedick

The man makes a good point.

Sheep Lover

That's alot of words OP, how many people do you reckon will read it in its entirety.

Mr. Incognito

Tldr

Most countries sell exploration and exploitation rights separately.

Ray Bourke who was jailed for corruption was the Minister who rolled them into one and flog them for ridiculously generous terms

The whole area should be overhauled.

The Backwards Man

Call me funny, but I don't think following Venezuela's lead should be anything to aspire to.

Mr. Incognito

Tldr

Most countries sell exploration and exploitation rights separately.

Ray Bourke who was jailed for corruption was the Minister who rolled them into one and flog them for ridiculously generous terms

The whole area should be overhauled.

celticcrash

Sheep Lover wrote: »

That's alot of words OP, how many people do you reckon will read it in its entirety.

Its a lot of words, but nothing compared to the amount of oil and gas.
At least €450 billion worth.

kneemos

We should protest.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

That OP is straight from Activism and Agitation in November 2010.

A bit late to do much about it now isn't it?

Tail Docker

We're all too busy whinging about water OP. One thing at a time, and we're starting with the rubbish at the bottom of the list, then work our way up. Be with you in, ohh, twenty years or so.

celticcrash

Talon Eager Babble wrote: »

That OP is straight from Activism and Agitation in November 2010.

A bit late to do much about it now isn't it?

Why do you think its too late?

The Moldy Gowl

celticcrash wrote: »

Its a lot of words, but nothing compared to the amount of oil and gas.
At least €450 billion worth.

Do you want the government to start to invest in exploration? Invest millions and millions in the hope of finding something?

Your figures are lovely, but the cost To find the fields are massive. All that oil and gas isn't in one big pocket where you stick a pipe down and bobs your uncle.

Sheep Lover

celticcrash wrote: »

Its a lot of words, but nothing compared to the amount of oil and gas.
At least €450 billion worth.

You lose hundreds of euro each year on buying paper you solely use to wipe your arse with, have you considered that?

Awkward Badger

celticcrash wrote: »

Its a lot of words, but nothing compared to the amount of oil and gas.
At least €450 billion worth.

Not as simple as that though. This is oil and gas that was found (not sure they have even starting extracting it yet) by companies who gambled and invested in looking for it after they got the old "Find it and extract it and you can sell it" deal from the government who had no idea if there was anything there, no means to look for it and no way to extract if they magically found it.

I agree it needs to be checked and overhauled if those bunch of con men had anything to do with it but its not the big give away some people make out.

HeidiHeidi

Is it Groundhog Day (Hour)?

The Moldy Gowl

It would cost more to actually get the oil on land that it would benefit us, that's why we said here you go shell, knock yourself outs

shanered

The fight for control over our own resources and fair distribution of the wealth created is the biggest most important issue of the state.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

celticcrash wrote: »

Why do you think its too late?

The deed's done. We just need to do something with the dagger.
Why do you just ask questions? What is your solution, based on the current appetite, or lack of appetite, for oil and gas exploration worldwide?

celticcrash

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Do you want the government to start to invest in exploration? Invest millions and millions in the hope of finding something?

Your figures are lovely, but the cost To find the fields are massive. All that oil and gas isn't in one big pocket where you stick a pipe down and bobs your uncle.

Rip up the old contract, null and avoid. A new contract that would benefit the Irish people. Contracts are ripped up all the time.
Do we have to stand by contracts made by corrupt politicians.

Menas

OP do you know how much has been spent by private companies on prospecting for gas and oil in and around ireland over the past 30 years? And do you think that the irish tax payer would have been happy to spend this money?
And do you know how much money has been made to date selling Irish oil and gas comercially?
And do you know what the negative consequences would be of ireland reneging on the licencing agreements that have been made and deciding to go it alone?
And do you know what the minimum per barrel oil price is to make it lucrative to extract oil from the deep wells we have found?

Do you?

celticcrash

Trigger Happy wrote: »

OP do you know how much has been spent by private companies on prospecting for gas and oil in and around ireland over the past 30 years? And do you think that the irish tax payer would have been happy to spend this money?
And do you know how much money has been made to date selling Irish oil and gas comercially?
And do you know what the negative consequences would be of ireland reneging on the licencing agreements that have been made and deciding to go it alone?
And do you know what the minimum per barrel oil price is to make it lucrative to extract oil from the deep wells we have found?

Do you?

No to all of your questions. Thats why I am asking people for their opinions. Do you have the answer to these questions you ask me?

Menas

celticcrash wrote: »

No to all of your questions. Thats why I am asking people for their opinions. Do you have the answer to these questions you ask me?

I do.
If you do some research before posting you will be better prepared for a debate.
Posting a wall of text with out understanding the facts and then asking for others opinions is nonsense.

celticcrash

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I do.
If you do some research before posting you will be better prepared for a debate.
Posting a wall of text with out understanding the facts and then asking for others opinions is nonsense.

So if I am not fully educated about the subject than I am not qualified to ask any questions.

Don Kedick

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I do.
If you do some research before posting you will be better prepared for a debate.
Posting a wall of text with out understanding the facts and then asking for others opinions is nonsense.

Will you answer this question for me?
"And do you know what the negative consequences would be of ireland reneging on the licencing agreements that have been made and deciding to go it alone?"

Menas

celticcrash wrote: »

So if I am not fully educated about the subject than I am not qualified to ask any questions.

You have stated an opinion in the OP that contracts should be ripped up. This is your opening salvo in a debate on a subject you know nothing about.
Not a good starting point is it?

Awkward Badger

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I do.
If you do some research before posting you will be better prepared for a debate.
Posting a wall of text with out understanding the facts and then asking for others opinions is nonsense.

This is a discussion forum though not a debating forum where people don't speak without thoroughly researching the topic. The OP posted some info, gave and opinion and asked what others thought about it.

Saipanne

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production#Countries


Quadrillions of Euro, folks... That's what 431 barrels per day gets you, right?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

celticcrash wrote: »

No to all of your questions. Thats why I am asking people for their opinions. Do you have the answer to these questions you ask me?

The answers are all relatively easy to find.

You said " Its my opinion that our government should call the contracts null and void, " . You must be aware that you cannot just scrap a contract without penalty. People are screaming about paying a small sum for water compared to the cost of oil exploration. Are you willing to foot the bill for unsuccessful oil exploration? If you are then more power to you because I'm not.

Gummy Panda

Did not read lol

celticcrash

Talon Eager Babble wrote: »

The answers are all relatively easy to find.

You said " Its my opinion that our government should call the contracts null and void, " . You must be aware that you cannot just scrap a contract without penalty. People are screaming about paying a small sum for water compared to the cost of oil exploration. Are you willing to foot the bill for unsuccessful oil exploration? If you are then more power to you because I'm not.

What people are screaming?

The Moldy Gowl

celticcrash wrote: »

Rip up the old contract, null and avoid. A new contract that would benefit the Irish people. Contracts are ripped up all the time.
Do we have to stand by contracts made by corrupt politicians.

Yeah. That's a great way to conduct business. I'm sure ever other foreign country who invests in Ireland will love that. Contracts aren't ripped up all the time, it takes the 2 sides to 'rip' up a contract.

Just go and Wikipedia it for yourself

Highflyer13

OP, Venezuela is in a worse state now than ever. 25000 murders a year, rolling blackouts and food shortages say so. It can hardly be held as a country to aspire to. A lot of angry, revolution calling type threads on boards lately. Must be something in the water.

Don Kedick

So does anyone know the answers to the questions listed on the last page?

Saipanne

celticcrash wrote: »

What people are screaming?

The Moldy Gowl

celticcrash wrote: »

What people are screaming?

Those few protests about being charged for water.

I don't think you understand oil exploration. It costs billions to search and then the % found is very low, then you need a big field to make it worthwhile.

You are clueless.

Don Kedick

People are getting very angry about this. Why?

Saipanne

Don Kedick wrote: »

People are getting very angry about this. Why?

Angry?

Anyway, possibly because they have to repeatedly answer the same hackneyed arguments over and over and over.

Or do you think this is the first such thread?

Don Kedick

Saipanne wrote: »

Angry?

Anyway, possibly because they have to repeatedly answer the same hackneyed arguments over and over and over.

Or do you think this is the first such thread?

You seem a bit angry yes. Anyway can you answer this?
And do you know what the negative consequences would be of ireland reneging on the licencing agreements that have been made and deciding to go it alone?

celticcrash

Saipanne wrote: »

What has that got to do with oil? Cant see the connection.

The Moldy Gowl

celticcrash wrote: »

What has that got to do with oil? Cant see the connection.

Ffs

celticcrash

Saipanne wrote: »

Angry?

Anyway, possibly because they have to repeatedly answer the same hackneyed arguments over and over and over.

Or do you think this is the first such thread?

Why do you feel that you have to answer questions, if you dont like it, just move on.
I am not been funny.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

celticcrash wrote: »

What people are screaming?

Earth calling....Earth calling.....

You don't know about anybody screaming about paying for water?

OK, I'm out. This is a set up if that reply is anything to go by.

You still haven't explained why you now post a very long piece from 2010.

Heroditas

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Must be something in the water.

Oh you just had to go and bring fluoride into the thread, didn't you? :pac:

Saipanne

Don Kedick wrote: »

You seem a bit angry yes. Anyway can you answer this?
And do you know what the negative consequences would be of ireland reneging on the licencing agreements that have been made and deciding to go it alone?

I'm not angry at all. My life has never been better actually. I'm ecstatically happy. :-D

I answered your initial question. I'm not interested in having this silly debate again, but I will enjoy reading this thread and watching the demolition.

If you wish to see refutations to all your questions and more, use the search function in the politics forum. Seriously, you're on the losing side.

Saipanne

celticcrash wrote: »

Why do you feel that you have to answer questions, if you dont like it, just move on.
I am not been funny.

He asked a question. I answered.

celticcrash

Talon Eager Babble wrote: »

Earth calling....Earth calling.....

You don't know about anybody screaming about paying for water?

OK, I'm out. This is a set up if that reply is anything to go by.

You still haven't explained why you now post a very long piece from 2010.

Maybe I just found it and I am curious to know what people think. Its just I want to know what people think.
There is no hidden agenda here.

Saipanne

celticcrash wrote: »

Maybe I just found it and I am curious to know what people think. Its just I want to know what people think.
There is no hidden agenda here.

Ok, in that case I seriously recommend you search the politics forum. You will find answers there.

Don Kedick

Saipanne wrote: »

I'm not angry at all. My life has never been better actually. I'm ecstatically happy. :-D

I answered your initial question. I'm not interested in having this silly debate again, but I will enjoy reading this thread and watching the demolition.

If you wish to see refutations to all your questions and more, use the search function in the politics forum. Seriously, you're on the losing side.

What are you on about? Losing side? I'm just looking for someone to answer the questions that were posted. Does anyone know the answers?