The Irish Midfield

d-gal

What a nice headache Joe has for the World Cup this summer

Darcy, Olding, Marshall, Henshaw, Payne, Cave and Madigan

D'arcy has an awful lot of work to do to keep his 12

The nailed down starter is Henshaw - what a series he has had

So that realistically leaves us with 4 viable options

D'arcy/Henshaw - a mix of experience and youth

Madigan/Henshaw - potentially brilliant and could give us more options off the bench (a winger and Payne/Jones)

Henshaw/Payne - worked brilliantly against SA

Olding/Henshaw - the wildcard but the future I reckon. Absolutely mouthwatering prospect of these lads in the centres together

I'm torn between Mads or Olding at 12. Payne off the bench would be great cover (though that could be McFadden/Zebo/Trimble/Jones - too many options!!)

case885

I have a feeling if Marshall regains 12 at Ulster he will be starting in the 6n or else another Henshaw/Payne combo.

George Hook

If McCloskey plays well for Ulster he might get into a few training camps too.

Blue giant

Would love to see Olding and Henshaw in the centre together.

wp_rathead

Blue giant wrote: »

Would love to see Olding and Henshaw in the centre together.

Can see that being the Post WC midfield duo - would love to see it during 6N though

corny

I'm virtually always in favour of giving young lads a chance to impress in sport but in this situation i'd go for Payne and Henshaw. Best all rounders for my money.

I've never been fully convinced by Madigan at 10 or 12 but the idea of a playmaker with good hands at 12 really appeals. Especially when we play hard up defences like Australia and England.

Can't rest on our laurels, our back play has to improve. Against the SA and AR we relied heavily on good defence and kick-chase. We've become Argentina 07!! We haven't beaten any team twice under Schmidt (EDIT:forgot Argentina tour. Point still stands though). I'd suggest the opposition will be very keen to learn from the defeats we've dished out. Don't mean to sound overly pessimistic, just i'd like to keep winning;)

Molester Stallone II

I think people are forgetting Earls. He can play 12 & 13, and while I hope he's deployed on the wing, he is a very real possibility for the 13 shirt, esp with his international try scoring record

Brewster

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

I think people are forgetting Earls. He can play 12 & 13, and while I hope he's deployed on the wing, he is a very real possibility for the 13 shirt, esp with his international try scoring record

Earls in the centre. No chance. Hasn't got the awareness or intelligence to play centre. Great finisher on wing.

Molester Stallone II

Brewster wrote: »

Earls in the centre. No chance. Hasn't got the awareness or intelligence to play centre. Great finisher on wing.

And yet, he's played more games there than wing in recent years.

corny

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

And yet, he's played more games there than wing in recent years.

Experiment tried and failed. Earls isn't a centre.

Molester Stallone II

corny wrote: »

Experiment tried and failed. Earls isn't a centre.

Oh hes a world class winger, but still, he's a very good option at centre, whether some chose to believe it or not isn't my concern

bilston

Similar to the Payne situation for me. Play Payne in the centre where he is decent you deny yourself a class FB, play Earls in the centre where he is ok and you deny yourself a top class winger.

rrpc

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

Oh hes a world class winger, but still, he's a very good option at centre, whether some chose to believe it or not isn't my concern

I think the only opinion here that matters is Joe's, so we'll see how that pans out.

I don't believe that Madigan should be a contender for centre. We're not exactly flush with tens, so taking one of them and sticking him in a position where there are actually quite a few options would be folly.

On the other hand, Keatley seems to thrive as a 12. I've seen him play there for Munster when JJ comes on or starts and he really does seem to bring something to the position whereas he can blow hot and cold at ten.

If we're looking to the future though, Olding and Henshaw could well be the answer.

former legend

I wouldn't rule Earls out at all.

Munster have decent options on the wing with Zebo, Conway and VDH, but their centre partnership of Hurley and Smith isn't top-level. I could well see Foley moving Earls into the centre to get a bit more attacking spark.

So if he gets regular game time in the centre, then we'll see how it goes. Unfortunately time is not on Earls' side; if he's due back in January, then barring a major injury crisis he's not going to be involved in the 6N and then it's going to be very difficult to squeeze into contention for the RWC.

Also worth noting that Luke Fitzgerald starts at 13 for Leinster today...

To answer the initial question, the 13 jersey is Henshaw's to lose, I expect to see him there at the start of the 6N, but I wouldn't describe him as nailed on by any means. The big unknown is Olding; if he's not playing 12 for Ulster then I can't see him getting into the Ireland team.

If I was betting on it, I'd say the most likely midfield for the RWC is D'Arcy - Henshaw but anything could happen over the next 10 months.

.ak

If Marshall can get back to form I can very much see him pairing with Robbie.

jm08

Brewster wrote: »

Earls in the centre. No chance. Hasn't got the awareness or intelligence to play centre. Great finisher on wing.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Himself and Zebo have a great partnership (Zebo picked up a couple of Heineken Cup hattricks outside Earls) prior to Earls being moved out to cover for Doug Howlet when he got injured.

He is a very good rucker as well - and we know Joe likes good ruckers!

jm08

.ak wrote: »

If Marshall can get back to form I can very much see him pairing with Robbie.

A partnership of Henshaw & Marshall would be way too inexperienced, particularly with limited time now available before the world cup to build up any sort of partnership. I can see a partnership of one of Darcy, Luke Fitz, Earls or Payne in the frame.

jm08

corny wrote: »

Experiment tried and failed. Earls isn't a centre.

Munster think he is. In the announcement about Pat Howard (a centre) coming in as injury cover, Munster & Western Province said that he was brought in to cover the midfield because of Earls, Bohane & Bleyenthaal injuries.

Molester Stallone II

rrpc wrote: »

I think the only opinion here that matters is Joe's, so we'll see how that pans out.

I don't believe that Madigan should be a contender for centre. We're not exactly flush with tens, so taking one of them and sticking him in a position where there are actually quite a few options would be folly.

On the other hand, Keatley seems to thrive as a 12. I've seen him play there for Munster when JJ comes on or starts and he really does seem to bring something to the position whereas he can blow hot and cold at ten.

If we're looking to the future though, Olding and Henshaw could well be the answer.

I agree completely with your first line, and I think Felix Jones is the very embodiment of Joe knowing better than many other experts

Losty Dublin

I'd gladly throw both Earls and Luke Fitzgerald. into the argument for centre options. Far far more is being asked from the players under the current coaching set up and in general far far more right answers have been given by the players. There is no questions in my mind that either man, if played in the midfield, are more than capable of it. What will play a prime factor are those backs are able to play across the line in several positions and play them well when asked. Madigan is comfortable across the park as is Sexton. Players like Zebo and Jones and even the likes of Cave are less so utility backs; their selection become a little less certain as a result and puts less obvious players such as Jared Payne or Munsters Ian Keatley or JJ Hanrahan into the mix.

Another name to throw into the argument is Fergus McFadden. Out for the Autumn tests with a calf injury, time isn't on his side but he is a player who was touted as the successor to the 13 shirt. A good run in the Leinster team upon return and he will be in contention for a place again.

CatFromHue

McFadden sees himself as a wing now, he said it on The Last Word during the week.

I wouldn't mind seeing Earls in the centre for Munster again tbh.

That break he made against Scotland for Ireland is highlighted as a reason why he shouldn't be picked but equally no one else in the team could have made the break in the first place!

Zzippy

corny wrote: »

Can't rest on our laurels, our back play has to improve. Against the SA and AR we relied heavily on good defence and kick-chase. We've become Argentina 07!! We haven't beaten any team twice under Schmidt (EDIT:forgot Argentina tour. Point still stands though).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Australia is the only team we've played twice under Schmidt apart from the Argentina tour. Give him a chance!

Losty Dublin

Zzippy wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Australia is the only team we've played twice under Schmidt apart from the Argentina tour. Give him a chance!

13 games to be exact. 6 AI, 5 6N and 2 tour games.

Zzippy

Losty Dublin wrote: »

13 games to be exact. 6 AI, 5 6N and 2 tour games.

Yes, against 11 different teams. It's very unfair to make the assertion that was made until we do play some of those teams again.

kingofthekong

D'arcy just simply isn't good enough to play 12 internationally anymore , I'm struggling to think of other international teams he'd even start for , Mcloskey has been the best 12 in the country this year and the fact that neither olding or Marshall are playing 12 for Ulster is a huge blow to their chances. It may be too late for mcloskey to make it in before the World Cup but if he continues his form you never know.

English Lurker

George Hook wrote: »

If McCloskey plays well for Ulster he might get into a few training camps too.

I'm amazed there's not more chat about him in this thread given how well he's played, how much impetus he'd add to a team slightly short in incision and physicality, and Schmidt's history with big centres.

My guess is if Ulster can provide one of their young 12s in top form, Schmidt will take a chance there; elsewise, D'Arcy or Payne. And McCloskey looks top of the pile in Ulster atm.

Yogosan

kingofthekong wrote: »

D'arcy just simply isn't good enough to play 12 internationally anymore , I'm struggling to think of other international teams he'd even start for , Mcloskey has been the best 12 in the country this year and the fact that neither olding or Marshall are playing 12 for Ulster is a huge blow to their chances. It may be too late for mcloskey to make it in before the World Cup but if he continues his form you never know.

He wasn't great yesterday. But to be fair, there were times when I felt O'Connell, BOD, O'Gara etc. all looked past there best, only to turn around and put in a performance like O'Connells yesterday. I think we simply have to rely on Schmidts judgement here.

I think Darcy still has alot to offer, especially in defense. But theres no doubt the legs on the likes of O'Connell and Darcy are getting worse by the game. That said, O'Connell made some hard yards against a very strong Austrailian defense yesterday, which has been a rarity for the past few years. Truly a man possesed.

Pudsy33

Just saw the up and under Henshaw collected in the build up to Australias first try. It as absolutely fantastic. Some athlete.

kingofthekong

Yogosan wrote: »

He wasn't great yesterday. But to be fair, there were times when I felt O'Connell, BOD, O'Gara etc. all looked past there best, only to turn around and put in a performance like O'Connells yesterday. I think we simply have to rely on Schmidts judgement here.

I think Darcy still has alot to offer, especially in defense. But theres no doubt the legs on the likes of O'Connell and Darcy are getting worse by the game. That said, O'Connell made some hard yards against a very strong Austrailian defense yesterday, which has been a rarity for the past few years. Truly a man possesed.

D'arcy has done nothing to be picked over mcloskey this season , he's barely hanging on just on past reputation

jacothelad

kingofthekong wrote: »

D'arcy has done nothing to be picked over mcloskey this season , he's barely hanging on just on past reputation

McCloskey is still some way short of the Irish squad. Let's see how he goes over the next few weeks or months. He looks good but so does Marshall and Olding. (So does Whitten at Exeter) Let's not Zeboise him ffs.

kingofthekong

English Lurker wrote: »

I'm amazed there's not more chat about him in this thread given how well he's played, how much impetus he'd add to a team slightly short in incision and physicality, and Schmidt's history with big centres.

My guess is if Ulster can provide one of their young 12s in top form, Schmidt will take a chance there; elsewise, D'Arcy or Payne. And McCloskey looks top of the pile in Ulster atm.

Good to hear an outside perspective , just curious which team you've seen him playing against from England that he's impressed you in

Yogosan

kingofthekong wrote: »

D'arcy has done nothing to be picked over mcloskey this season , he's barely hanging on just on past reputation

Past reputation? So you mean the days when he used to dance around defenders like a ballerina. Schmidt must be some idiot so if he thinks 34 year old D'arcy is ever going to do that again! Y'know, because he's only picking him because of his past reputation.

kingofthekong

jacothelad wrote: »

McCloskey is still some way short of the Irish squad. Let's see how he goes over the next few weeks or months. He looks good but so does Marshall and Olding. (So does Whitten at Exeter) Let's not Zeboise him ffs.

Hahaha zeboise , I like it (it worked for Zebo)

jm08

Yogosan wrote: »

Past reputation? So you mean the days when he used to dance around defenders like a ballerina. Schmidt must be some idiot so if he thinks 34 year old D'arcy is ever going to that again! Y'know, because he's only picking him because of his past reputation.

I'd say he is picking him for his experience.

kingofthekong

Yogosan wrote: »

Past reputation? So you mean the days when he used to dance around defenders like a ballerina. Schmidt must be some idiot so if he thinks 34 year old D'arcy is ever going to do that again! Y'know, because he's only picking him because of his past reputation.

Those days are gone mate , open your eyes have you even watched him play at all this season , far from dancing around players anymore

kingofthekong

jm08 wrote: »

I'd say he is picking him for his experience.

May aswell bring back Leo Cullen just incase o'connell's injured 'for experience'

Yogosan

kingofthekong wrote: »

Those days are gone mate , open your eyes have you even watched him play at all this season , far from dancing around players anymore

You completely missed the point I made.

CatFromHue

Even Richie McCaw had to play 17 games for Canterbury before he was picked for the AB's at the end of their season!

Whoever is to compete with D'arcy for Ireland has to be getting alot of game time between now and end of Jan for their club.

former legend

kingofthekong wrote: »

D'arcy has done nothing to be picked over mcloskey this season , he's barely hanging on just on past reputation

McCloskey looks like a good prospect.

Suggesting that he's ahead of anyone on the basis of a handful of pro12 games doesn't make sense.

d-gal

Can't have Fitzgerald in contention because he's simply not in the setup. He's had horrendous bad luck with injuries. He can't even get a run of games with Leinster.
You cannot rely on injury prone players and it's not like we don't have better/equal players

corny

Zzippy wrote: »

Yes, against 11 different teams. It's very unfair to make the assertion that was made until we do play some of those teams again.

Its unfair to suggest that the teams we've beaten will learn from their losses? Really?

English Lurker

kingofthekong wrote: »

Good to hear an outside perspective , just curious which team you've seen him playing against from England that he's impressed you in

He's only played against Leicester, right? Thought he handled that step up well for a young lad and showed his physicality wasn't just flat track bully. I just try to watch as much rugby as possible and that includes plenty of Irish rugby (which is kinda why I'm here).

Impossible to say he's the answer when he's this raw, but part of the conversation? For me, definitely. Both because he has the form to be part of the conversation and because I believe Ireland are screaming out for players with his sort of attributes. Guys like Madigan, Olding and Hanrahan are all special talents who could make hay if power runners open up a bit of space for them to work in, but someone needs to crowbar the door open and I think Schmidt has a shortage of such players to work with.

edit: But it is definitely far too early to say he's the answer and he has plenty of work to do. Agree with people not wanting to get ahead of things.

Yogosan

corny wrote: »

Its unfair to suggest that the teams we've beaten will learn from their losses? Really?

You clearly never made that suggestion, but don't let that stop you backtracking. It's hilarious! :pac:

For your consideration:

We haven't beaten any team twice under Schmidt (EDIT:forgot Argentina tour. Point still stands though).

No the point quite clearly doesn't stand. You proved it yourself with your final sentence.

kingofthekong

former legend wrote: »

McCloskey looks like a good prospect.

Suggesting that he's ahead of anyone on the basis of a handful of pro12 games doesn't make sense.

He's played pro 12 all season and a couple of Heineken games , and emerging Ireland which you didn't mention for some reason , Joes an outstanding coach I reckon he'll be brought into camp sooner rather than later

former legend

kingofthekong wrote: »

He's played pro 12 all season and a couple of Heineken games , and emerging Ireland which you didn't mention for some reason , Joes an outstanding coach I reckon he'll be brought into camp sooner rather than later

One heineken game. He was taken off then dropped the following week. Not a ringing endorsement.

Emerging Ireland is below pro12 level.

Edit: this should not be construed as criticism of McCloskey, just of the logic in saying he should be ahead of D'Arcy.

jm08

kingofthekong wrote: »

May aswell bring back Leo Cullen just incase o'connell's injured 'for experience'

There are a few forwards who have more than 3 or 4 caps, unlike the midfield.

kingofthekong

former legend wrote: »

One heineken game. He was taken off then dropped the following week. Not a ringing endorsement.

Emerging Ireland is below pro12 level.

And ulster where far worse when he was replaced the following week against Toulon , olding couldn't handle the physicality of bastereaud and was exposed , mcloskey will start the next game against Toulon

former legend

kingofthekong wrote: »

And ulster where far worse when he was replaced the following week against Toulon , olding couldn't handle the physicality of bastereaud and was exposed , mcloskey will start the next game against Toulon

Maybe all that is true but you can't give a player credit for a match he didn't play in or one which is yet to happen.

corny

corny wrote: »

Can't rest on our laurels, our back play has to improve. Against the SA and AR we relied heavily on good defence and kick-chase. We've become Argentina 07!! We haven't beaten any team twice under Schmidt (EDIT:forgot Argentina tour. Point still stands though). I'd suggest the opposition will be very keen to learn from the defeats we've dished out. Don't mean to sound overly pessimistic, just i'd like to keep winning;)

Yogosan wrote: »

You clealry never made that suggestion, but don't let that stop you backtracking. It's hilarious! :pac:

Clearly i never made that suggestion.

When you're done editing and laughing you tell me what i meant?

kingofthekong

former legend wrote: »

Maybe all that is true but you can't give a player credit for a match he didn't play in or one which is yet to happen.

Are you reading my posts ye? , I'm telling you olding couldn't handle bastereauds physicality at 12 , that's not praising mcloskey that's just a fact, I'm praising mcloskey on his performance that he 'HAS' played in not ones he hasn't

bilston

former legend wrote: »

McCloskey looks like a good prospect.

Suggesting that he's ahead of anyone on the basis of a handful of pro12 games doesn't make sense.

Well he played well against Leicestet at Welford Rd as well on the rare occasion he was actually given the ball. But your point still stands, he still has a bit to go. One thing I've noticed is that he occasionally takes the wrong option and that is a big no no in the Joe Schmidt world of coaching. Hopefully that comes with experience.

The raw materials are all there in spades though.