10%

s8080

take with a pinch of salt.

a little bird told me the private response to the 10% routes tender has been less than enthusiastic.
dublin bus might have been the best offer.

the process could be delayed for “technical reasons”.

expect a new found hole in dublin bus finances to magically appear which will result in a emergency fare increase.

got to make the conditions for the 10% tender a little better to get the response they want.

we should know within the next few weeks

end of the road

the NTA determine the fares now don't they?

Aard

Is this the orbital+local routes package? Unsurprising theres little interest. The setup costs are high, and setting up depots etc just to get the scraps of the bus network isn't attractive. Dublin Bus OTOH have the resources to operate the routes.

They should have put a corridor or routes out to tender. This would also have inspired confidence for future tenders. For example, all routes east of the N11 plus an orbital/local or two.

n97 mini

Is this the shítty routes like the 239? No wonder there's no interest. Let the operators decide the route between A and B.

end of the road

or just leave it as it is

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

I believe it was delayed as unions were trying to save the 10%

Also you'd want to be an idiot of a private operator to take loss making routes

Also youd be ddat as a customer to want a private operator doing it also.

LXFlyer

Given that the process has been delayed until mid-January (in terms of submissions being requested from interested parties by the NTA), so as to allow the NTA and unions thrash out a deal on how this goes forward, I'm not sure anyone can make any sort of conclusion at this stage.

foggy_lad

Maybe the NTA will bring back City IMP type minibuses to operate these routes hiring several private operators to provide drivers for them, like they have done with other routes in Laois where they paid for buses and the company M&A coaches supply the drivers and recieve a set amount from the NTA.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

Maybe the NTA will bring back City IMP type minibuses to operate these routes hiring several private operators to provide drivers for them, like they have done with other routes in Laois where they paid for buses and the company M&A coaches supply the drivers and recieve a set amount from the NTA.

my fealing is that each private company supplying drivers and the NTA paying a set amount is the plan. it all depends on whether operators are interested though.

AlekSmart

Aard wrote: »

Is this the orbital+local routes package? Unsurprising theres little interest. The setup costs are high, and setting up depots etc just to get the scraps of the bus network isn't attractive. Dublin Bus OTOH have the resources to operate the routes.

They should have put a corridor or routes out to tender. This would also have inspired confidence for future tenders. For example, all routes east of the N11 plus an orbital/local or two.

The NTA have stated that where a successful tenderer does not have Depot facilities,the the Authority would take steps to provide these.

The NTA does NOT have any legal entitlement to CIE premises,so it would most likely be a combination of hard-standing and portacabins in the short term.

However,what appears to be causing the current uncertainty within the Authority,is the speed with which bus demand has escalated.

With BAC having reduced it's fleet by some 200+ 72 seat vehicles since 2008 and the NTA specified replacements being 67 seat,it can be seen that the overall carrying capacity of BAC is substantially reduced (1,000 Seats).

If we look at the Fleet Size requirements outlined by then Transport Minister Martin Cullen in 2006,we get an indication of where Dublin should be in relation to Buses.

http://www.eamonryan.ie/2006/09/28/the-departments-plans-for-the-regulation-of-the-dublin-bus-market/

Minister for Transport (Mr. Cullen): The Government yesterday made a number of significant decisions which will provide a solid basis for expanded and improved bus services throughout the country over the coming years, while ensuring better value for money for both passengers and taxpayers.

In the case of the greater Dublin area, there is a requirement for an expansion of the number of buses providing scheduled services.? This will require an increase in the total number of buses to approximately 1,800, under Transport 21, with a requirement for at least 200 extra buses over the next two years.? The Government has decided to meet this initial requirement by providing up to ?30 million immediately to enable Dublin Bus to buy 100 additional buses for delivery over the period 2006-2007 and by mandating the proposed Dublin Transport Authority, DTA, to procure the additional 100 buses from the private sector to provide services on new routes.

The 100 buses procured from the private sector will form part of an initiative to facilitate the entry of new, private operators by awarding franchises to operate routes accounting for 15% exclusively to such operators by way of competitive tendering.? Following this period, all new routes will be subject to a competitive tendering process open to all operators.? The precise arrangements will be approved by Government on the basis of proposals from the DTA.? This approach will encourage new investment and innovation in the Dublin bus passenger market.

The proposals outlined by Minister Cullen,stemmed from the Dublin Public Transport Forum,and were broadly agreed upon by ALL of those participating,Unions,Companies,IBEC,DCCBA and DTA/NTA.

Had these proposals been speedily acted upon then we would be far further along the road of an integrated and efficient Bus Service in Dublin.

The reality now dawning upon the NTA,is of Dubin now having only around 50% of the Bus Fleet it requires,and each passing day provides it with an ever greater challenge.

The policies which appeared viable up until early 2014,are now proving to be highly restrictive,so some means will have to emerge to either modify the parameters or devise totally new strategies.

For a very small outlay,the NTA could reactivate the 100 EXTRA vehicles for NEW routes plan which represented the agreed way forward back in 2006.

Expansion,represents the only socially viable answer in the current recovery,always remembering that the current base is artifically low.

If one goes back a little further,one can appreciate just how lost in space Irish Public Transport policy really was,and how much improved it currently is....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/now-road-is-cleared-for-private-bus-fleets-26118212.html

Victor

AlekSmart wrote: »

The NTA does NOT have any legal entitlement to CIE premises,so it would most likely be a combination of hard-standing and portacabins in the short term.

There is an obligation on dominant operators to provide facilities (on a commercial basis) no new entrants. GoBÉ was the first prominent manifestation of this.

With BAC having reduced it's fleet by some 200+ 72 seat vehicles since 2008 and the NTA specified replacements being 67 seat,it can be seen that the overall carrying capacity of BAC is substantially reduced (1,000 Seats).

the extra buses were provided, but then cut back.

etchyed

n97 mini wrote: »

Is this the shítty routes like the 239? No wonder there's no interest. Let the operators decide the route between A and B.

The proposed arrangement is for an operating concession, in which the operator receives a fixed or performance-based payment in return for operating the service. Farebox revenue would be passed directly to the NTA.

As such, it is not that the routes are "shítty", as you put it (as the revenue-earning potential would be of no relevance to potential operators), but rather that the size of the operation on offer is simply too small to attract any major players.

Allowing operators to "decide the route between A and B", as you advocate, would essentially be complete bus deregulation, a policy (to the best of my knowledge) not in operation anywhere in the developed world, but for our nearest neighbours (except in London, which is too important).

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

If we look at the Fleet Size requirements outlined by then Transport Minister Martin Cullen in 2006,we get an indication of where Dublin should be in relation to Buses.

http://www.eamonryan.ie/2006/09/28/the-departments-plans-for-the-regulation-of-the-dublin-bus-market/

The proposals outlined by Minister Cullen,stemmed from the Dublin Public Transport Forum,and were broadly agreed upon by ALL of those participating,Unions,Companies,IBEC,DCCBA and DTA/NTA.

Had these proposals been speedily acted upon then we would be far further along the road of an integrated and efficient Bus Service in Dublin.

Thinking of Dublin Bus in 2006 makes me shudder. I remember the Labour Party campaigning along the likes of asking for 300 new buses in their election manifesto, only for a short while later for the fleet to be cut back due to the economic downturn. If those 300 extra vehicles would have ended up n service funded by the taxpayer and all of the extra staff hired, the company would be in an even worse situation right now and the number of duplicated services, with nonsensical non-joined timetables and empty buses was huge.

Dublin Bus in 2006 was an extremely poor operator and not to mention very inefficient. You cannot compare the likes of the current day Dublin Bus with the one operating 8 years ago. The current operation is around average, it still has some way to go before it can be considered good, but at least it's vastly better than what was being operated 8 years ago and I think even the biggest critics of the company on this board would admit the company has improved and become more efficient in the last few years.

I wouldn't give the Department of Transport as they then were called much praise under the FF government. Some people called them almost "The Department for CIE" because for a long period they seemed more concerned with protecting the state companies rather than the good of public transport users. The NTA have been a lot better in the regard that they have generally saw the bigger picture on a far bigger number of occasions, rather than what is best for a company. The job of any Transport Regulator is not to preserve and protect the status quo, it's to ensure the best service for the public and the best transport services overall.

Of course the staff will come on here and moan about the NTA all they like, because the fact is they are so used to the Celtic Tiger mentality of getting vast swaves of money thrown at CIE with nothing in return, thankfully that era has ended and I am glad for one that now the NTA is having a more hands on role, to actually demand improvements in exchange for ticket rises and investment.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

or just leave it as it is

No, it's rubbish as is. Impossible to travel Lucan to Blanchardstown on a Sunday because there's no Sunday service. One example of many orbital journeys on the west side of Dublin that are not possible due to stupidity.

antoinolachtnai

Not an option, unfortunately. Routes must go to tender under Directive 1370/2007.

cdebru

s8080 wrote: »

take with a pinch of salt.

a little bird told me the private response to the 10% routes tender has been less than enthusiastic.
dublin bus might have been the best offer.

the process could be delayed for “technical reasons”.

expect a new found hole in dublin bus finances to magically appear which will result in a emergency fare increase.

got to make the conditions for the 10% tender a little better to get the response they want.

we should know within the next few weeks

No really surprising given that the date for applying was postponed at the recent labour court talks.

Secondly fare increases won't make any difference, perhaps you should look up the model or ask the little birdy about it, the franchise model is based on a cost per km, what the fare is or how many travel will be irrelevant to the operator they will get paid an agreed rate either way. :-)

s8080

cdebru wrote: »

Secondly fare increases won't make any difference, perhaps you should look up the model or ask the little birdy about it, the franchise model is based on a cost per km, what the fare is or how many travel will be irrelevant to the operator they will get paid an agreed rate either way. :-)

where do you think the money will come from to pay these agreed rates?

how can the NTA get more money so they can sweeten the pot offered to run these 10% routes?

antoinolachtnai

Under current arrangements, NTA pays just under five euros/km for bus services in Dublin. This is already an immensely sweet rate.

the groutch

how will prepaid tickets pan out with private operators?

lets say someone had bought an annual ticket, then their main route(s) of use got privatised and rendered their ticket virtually useless, they'd have every right to be very p155ed off.

devnull

There is no privatisation taking place, that is a common myth and de-regulation and privatisation is not happening.

At the moment Dublin Bus are contracted by the NTA to provide services, the only thing that will change is other operators will have the chance to provide the services on some routes.

The fares and tickets will be the same ones, since such things will be under the control of the NTA and not the operators exactly like in London.

Tickityboo

devnull wrote: »

There is no privatisation taking place, that is a common myth and de-regulation and privatisation is not happening.

At the moment Dublin Bus are contracted by the NTA to provide services, the only thing that will change is other operators will have the chance to provide the services on some routes.

The fares and tickets will be the same ones, since such things will be under the control of the NTA and not the operators exactly like in London.

So we are going to have the same buses the same tickets and fares and more than likely the same drivers!!
What's the point in that?

markpb

Tickityboo wrote: »

So we are going to have the same buses the same tickets and fares and more than likely the same drivers!!
What's the point in that?

Maybe a private operator can provide the same service at lower cost (to the NTA) than DB or a better service (to customers) at the same cost.

end of the road

Tickityboo wrote: »

So we are going to have the same buses the same tickets and fares and more than likely the same drivers!!
What's the point in that?

they have to under the EU directives posted above. i agree with you though

Tickityboo

markpb wrote: »

Maybe a private operator can provide the same service at lower cost (to the NTA) than DB or a better service (to customers) at the same cost.

In other words a race to the bottom!! I don't think that will improve things but only make them worse.
What driver is really going to give a toss about giving good service if they are getting paid less and less for a job that is just getting more stressfull!!

Aard

It's not a race to the bottom since there is a minimum level of service the operators must provide.

It works in London. The previous system we used here -- everybody complained about it. Total privatisation doesn't work. It's the only proven way that works to provide *coordinated* public transport.

end of the road

Aard wrote: »

It works in London.

doesn't mean it would work in dublin though. many of the things that make londons bus services the way they do have been down to TFL have they not? the operators then just operate and get a fee. so that would mean it would be up to the NTA to implement what it believes a bus service needs and not the operator?

Aard wrote: »

The previous system we used here -- everybody complained about it.

yes, but any of its issues could have been sorted and still can.

Aard wrote: »

It's the only proven way that works to provide *coordinated* public transport.

keeping it as is and sorting out the issues could also do the same. obviously we can't do that it seems because of these EU directives

Tickityboo

Aard wrote: »

It's not a race to the bottom since there is a minimum level of service the operators must provide.

It works in London. The previous system we used here -- everybody complained about it. Total privatisation doesn't work. It's the only proven way that works to provide *coordinated* public transport.

Race to the bottom in wages!!
Because that is the way private operators will provide their services cheaper to the nta.

Aard

You could well be right on the wages thing. That, however, is a different debate to transport planning.

Victor

end of the road wrote: »

yes, but any of its issues could have been sorted and still can.

82 years on from the Road Transport Act, 1932 and they haven't fixed it yet?

etchyed

devnull wrote: »

There is no privatisation taking place, that is a common myth...

No, it's not. The myth that pervades is that that part of Dublin Bus is going to be sold off. That is what is incorrect.

What is not incorrect is to call the tendering of bus services privatisation. Dublin Bus is allowed to bid, admittedly, but if they do not win, privatisation will have taken place. Privatisation does not necessarily have to mean the sale of a state company. If the service was previously operated by a public body, and is then operated by a private company, that is privatisation.

Aard

It's privatisation of the operation of each route. But not "full" privatisation including route selection, as happened in the UK (excluding London). Network design remains under the control of the NTA.