What I think kills cars?

kirving

Modern cars are incredibly complex, but as a result, can self diagnose and report problems back to the driver(or buyer!). Fantastic to have the car tell me that the battery old, and that's why it was it wasn't producing a spark when loaded with heater fan and lights in traffic, rather than even having to open the bonnet for an intermittent issue which could be related to any number of things.

MetzgerMeister

I think that if it wasn't for unreliability, forums like this wouldn't exist.

No one would give a sh!t about how do I fix this, how do I fix that, where do I buy this, how does it go on etc. The communities like BMWDriver.net, RX8club.com etc. wouldn't exist because no one would have problems to ask about or people to answer the questions.

Unreliability gives people a reason to get interested in how their car works and it also gives the opportunity for someone to fix it themselves.

Sure, we'd have more money if we didn't have to buy parts for a car but wouldn't it make things boring? Are Toyotas (for the most part) boring because nothing goes wrong with them?

Tzardine

Sobanek wrote: »

.
Mercedes almost went bankrupt with the W123 - it never broke down.

Well they made up for it with the W203 that's for dam sure.

ardmacha

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Unreliability gives people a reason to get interested in how their car works and it also gives the opportunity for someone to fix it themselves.

?

yeah right, some people have a life and don't want to waste it fixing crap cars.

EazyD

ardmacha wrote: »

yeah right, some people have a life and don't want to waste it fixing crap cars.

I'm sure you do plenty of things with your time that many here would find monotonous/boring, it's all subjective.

Chris_Heilong

braddun wrote: »

reliable cars buy Toyota but pretty boring

mines not Boring

Marcusm

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Spending money regularly is what gets people, be it fuel, tax, servicing, tyres. Depreciation is only realised when you sell the car. It shouldn't affect the running of a car when in your ownership.

An interesting philiosophy; the alternative approach would be to recognise that as soon as the cash goes out the door, most of it will never come back so you should look after the asset as you are already committed to the depreciation.

MetzgerMeister

ardmacha wrote: »

yeah right, some people have a life and don't want to waste it fixing crap cars.

You posted that on a motoring forum. Some of us are motor enthusiasts and prefer doing these things ourselves

jimgoose

I'll tell you what kills cars in Ireland. There are two things, both of which interact with the (possibly uniquely) Irish mindset to send many fine vehicles to an early grave.

1) The NCT. "Sure there's nothing wrong with it, it on'y had d'NCT a few months back!!"

...which is at least tangentially related to...

2) Dealer warranties, including three years free servicing. Paddy buys number-plate-carrier, drives it for three years, gets it serviced while it's "free", then chops it in for the next one on the Lloyds Bowmaker. The car is never serviced again and expires of some sort of automotive cardiac arrest at around 100,000 miles. "Service?? Sure that costs money, an' dere's nothing wrong with it!!"

ardmacha

EazyD wrote: »

I'm sure you do plenty of things with your time that many here would find monotonous/boring, it's all subjective.

I'm sure I do, some would even find them weird. But it is nice to have the choice whether to work on your car rather than being forced to do so because of unreliability (and I've had those too).

Tea 1000

Akrasia wrote: »

20 years ago is 1994. The 1994 toyota corolla 1.3 is absolutely legendary for it's reliability.

That car refuses to die, especially considering that it's been traded at the budget end of the market for a decade now and many of them will have had minimal servicing. It's amazing how much punishment they can take.

Cars have been capable of being consistently reliable for at least 20 years now.

The problem isn't 20 years ago. The problem is the last 10, moreso the last 5 or 6. The lower the CO2 rating of the car, the less time the engine will last is a new rule I reckon! BMW petrols are all muck now. All modern diesels aren't much better.
The golden age is the 90's, and some from early 00's.

Tea 1000

Marcusm wrote: »

An interesting philiosophy; the alternative approach would be to recognise that as soon as the cash goes out the door, most of it will never come back so you should look after the asset as you are already committed to the depreciation.

It's the same with everything. You spend on a holiday, you might as well enjoy it, the cash isn't coming back. TV's, furniture, clothes, all that stuff!
Cars are no different, just more expensive. You have to maintain everything, if you don't it falls to crap.
Some folk get away with it and just move it on before an expensive repair. Which is why so many go to the UK to find a used car!!

commited

commited wrote: »

I agree with your point re Irish maintenance but you could have bought a 3-4 year old with full service history for much less and known that the car had been serviced.

It will also be a 4 year old car, with higher miles, undoubtedly not be perfect on the outside or inside and lack a manufacturers warranty. I cannot wait to be in a position to buy a brand new car, untouched by any other owner.

Viper_JB

Tea 1000 wrote: »

BMW petrols are all muck now.

Maybe the cheapest ones but they still have some great offerings in the M series and the larger engine petrol's are still some of the best driving cars available to the public. There are some fun modern diesels also but most are pretty boring and unreliable granted.

joujoujou

The whole thing is far more complicated than it looks.

It's actually multi-levelled, I'd say.

First thing - average people tend to get rid of old cars because of high(ish) tax, problems with NCT which they fail even on simple to fix issues. And despite the fact old cars are more reliable (see below).

===================

Second thing - newer cars are much more prone to breakdowns. Older cars were simple, and (as already mentioned here) were very easy to repair and keep alive. But manufacturers don't make money on old cars, not even on car parts, because there are plenty of other car parts makers including OEM and non-OEM suppliers making spare parts way cheaper than car manufacturers themselves, and average owner usually buys cheaper.

Manufacturers make money on new cars. Most of their money. And all the new cars are significantly better equipped than old ones, but they're cheaper than their predecessors! The only way to maintain profits is to make car making even cheaper than it used to be. Cost reducing is complicated, so long story short - cheaper materials, cheaper workforce etc.

There's no point (from manufacturer's point of view) to make "long living" cars - their target is, if car survives it's warranty period. Nothing more, nothing less. So, they make them "delicate" on purpose.

================

Third thing - last, but not least - is the whole marketing thing - people want to buy new cars because they've been told to! Yes, all of them TV ads, banners, flyers etc. And average Joe wants to have his brand new and shiny piece of 151 crap earlier than his neighbour, he wants to be the first one with his 151 can of worms on his workplace car park as well.

Amen.

Andrewf20

Recent issue: We have an old 95 Mazda 323, probably worth 300 euro if we were to sell it. It currently wont start and is stuck in a garage. I rang mazda to price a distributor - have a guess at the price - 830eu + VAT. Crazy. Unless I can get half decent looking & cheap parts in the breakers yards, the car will probably have to go for good, sadly.

I also have a 96D motor and in general would be an advocate of keeping an old car going. The amount of nightmare bills ive heard about on more modern machinery is frightening.

Akrasia

joujoujou wrote: »

The whole thing is far more complicated than it looks.

It's actually multi-levelled, I'd say.

First thing - average people tend to get rid of old cars because of high(ish) tax, problems with NCT which they fail even on simple to fix issues. And despite the fact old cars are more reliable (see below).

===================

Second thing - newer cars are much more prone to breakdowns. Older cars were simple, and (as already mentioned here) were very easy to repair and keep alive. But manufacturers don't make money on old cars, not even on car parts, because there are plenty of other car parts makers including OEM and non-OEM suppliers making spare parts way cheaper than car manufacturers themselves, and average owner usually buys cheaper.

Manufacturers make money on new cars. Most of their money. And all the new cars are significantly better equipped than old ones, but they're cheaper than their predecessors! The only way to maintain profits is to make car making even cheaper than it used to be. Cost reducing is complicated, so long story short - cheaper materials, cheaper workforce etc.

There's no point (from manufacturer's point of view) to make "long living" cars - their target is, if car survives it's warranty period. Nothing more, nothing less. So, they make them "delicate" on purpose.

================

Third thing - last, but not least - is the whole marketing thing - people want to buy new cars because they've been told to! Yes, all of them TV ads, banners, flyers etc. And average Joe wants to have his brand new and shiny piece of 151 crap earlier than his neighbour, he wants to be the first one with his 151 can of worms on his workplace car park as well.

Amen.

Robots can make cars cheaper and better than people. robots make our cars now. there are some new technologies that are still working out some kinks but while we romanticise old cars, its easy to forget how dirty the air was back when there was leaded petrol and diesels burnt more oil then diesel.

The reliability issues of new cars are offset by their better economy. a 1000 repair bill is horrible if you forget you're spending half as much on petrol.

We still need to demand perfection and reward improved technology to drive everyone forward. Tesla is the supreme example of this.

Tail Docker

Akrasia wrote: »

Robots can make cars cheaper and better than people. robots make our cars now. there are some new technologies that are still working out some kinks but while we romanticise old cars, its easy to forget how dirty the air was back when there was leaded petrol and diesels burnt more oil then diesel.

The reliability issues of new cars are offset by their better economy. a 1000 repair bill is horrible if you forget you're spending half as much on petrol.

We still need to demand perfection and reward improved technology to drive everyone forward. Tesla is the supreme example of this.

Umm, my '00 Corolla does a handy 48mpg pretty much always, and it's a petrol..1.4vvti. Never breaks either..pretty much ever. Not too many new petrols doing much better, and deffo not for as long.

joujoujou

Akrasia wrote: »

Robots can make cars cheaper and better than people. robots make our cars now. [...]

Oh yeah, and I am one of them robots making our cars. :mad:

Tea 1000

Viper_JB wrote: »

Maybe the cheapest ones but they still have some great offerings in the M series and the larger engine petrol's are still some of the best driving cars available to the public. There are some fun modern diesels also but most are pretty boring and unreliable granted.

Their 6 cylinder N53 engines are unreliable.

Tea 1000

Akrasia wrote: »

Robots can make cars cheaper and better than people. robots make our cars now. there are some new technologies that are still working out some kinks but while we romanticise old cars, its easy to forget how dirty the air was back when there was leaded petrol and diesels burnt more oil then diesel.

The reliability issues of new cars are offset by their better economy. a 1000 repair bill is horrible if you forget you're spending half as much on petrol.

We still need to demand perfection and reward improved technology to drive everyone forward. Tesla is the supreme example of this.

Robots don't make cars better than people as a whole. Only in general production lines they do, but ultimately people are better, which is why the best cars in the world are hand-built.
Also reliability issues are not offset by better economy. As I said earlier, 90's and early 00's are the best. Take a 1998 Passat 1.9 TDi for example. You could easily find one out there with over 200k miles on it and nothing replaced so far. Take a 2008 2.0 TDi one and see how many times the injectors/DPF/DMF had to be worked on. The difference between both in terms of economy is probably 2 or 3 mpg in the real world, if even that. Any singular job is enough to wipe out 10,000 miles or more in fuel savings.
Claimed mpg figures are going up but real world driving shows that there are actually almost no differences between most cars, some cases might yeild 6 or 7 mpg.
BMW have efficient petrol engines, but how many miles do you need to drive to offset the cost of injectors and coil packs, and that's assuming you don't have to do the fuel pump, as is frequently the case in the modern petrols.
That and the sensors throwing up errors that lead mechanics on wild goose chases. And everything these days is a "module" rather than a part, meaning the replacement is expensive.
Hard to beat something like a 2004 Honda Accord 2 litre petrol for as modern as you'll get with the best of reliability and reasonable repair costs.
European stuff these days are all bowing to the pressure of EU regulations, and reliabilty is going out the window. Also globilisation which causes the stock watchers at the top to force the managers below them to outsource everything to the cheapest bidder is a problem in itself.

Tea 1000

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Robots don't make cars better than people as a whole. Only in general production lines they do, but ultimately people are better, which is why the best cars in the world are hand-built.
Also reliability issues are not offset by better economy. As I said earlier, 90's and early 00's are the best. Take a 1998 Passat 1.9 TDi for example. You could easily find one out there with over 200k miles on it and nothing replaced so far. Take a 2008 2.0 TDi one and see how many times the injectors/DPF/DMF had to be worked on. The difference between both in terms of economy is probably 2 or 3 mpg in the real world, if even that. Any singular job is enough to wipe out 10,000 miles or more in fuel savings.
Claimed mpg figures are going up but real world driving shows that there are actually almost no differences between most cars, some cases might yeild 6 or 7 mpg.

This is mostly caused by EU regulations though. If they weren't forcing stupid emissions regulations on manufacturers they wouldn't have to be adding things to engine to force down emissions as these are mostly the things giving trouble.

I'm sure VW would happily be selling stuff with that ultra reliable 1.9TDI engine for the 90's were it not for their hand being forced.

Tea 1000

Elisha Big Loudspeaker wrote: »

This is mostly caused by EU regulations though. If they weren't forcing stupid emissions regulations on manufacturers they wouldn't have to be adding things to engine to force down emissions as these are mostly the things giving trouble.

I'm sure VW would happily be selling stuff with that ultra reliable 1.9TDI engine for the 90's were it not for their hand being forced.

I agree, but reducing manufacturing costs has played a big part also, so the two combined leaves us with todays stuff.

Tea 1000

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I agree, but reducing manufacturing costs has played a big part also, so the two combined leaves us with todays stuff.

Cars are still for the most part very reliable. Its lack of maintenance or incorrect use (as far as diesels are concerned) that is causing a the majority of problems.

I think the unreliability of cars gets exaggerated because its always the people with the problems we read about on this and other forums etc. Whereas in reality that's only a very small fraction of the overall number of a particular car on the road.

porsche959

goz83 wrote: »

No. It's the year on the plate that kills them in Ireland. People are already planning to get their 151 D economy sh1t box of paddy spec in January.

Tbh, that's hyperbolic at best. Annual car sales are 80k or so. That is a mere 4% of cars registered. So, give or take, to use an admittedly crude average, only around one in twenty of Irish motorists will buy a new car next year.

Annual car sales per head of population are actually much lower than, say, the UK, Germany, Switzerland, etc. (They briefly were higher during the unsustainable bubble period of 2000-2007.)

The 'paddy-spec' meme is also greatly exaggerated. I have seen no particular evidence that new car buyers in this country go for cheapest spec more than in any other country, except that, understandably, most people avoid the high tax brackets. (and even on that point, people who suffer from the delusion that the Irish motorist is uniquely disadvantaged might want to check out the rates in, say, Belgium).

But in any case a 'paddy-spec' 151 D econobox is more reliable, more fuel efficient, and better put together than a top of the range luxury car with all the options from the 1980s or 1990s (and I personally have never bought a new car in my life, and don't intend doing so).

Zoney

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Recent issue: We have an old 95 Mazda 323, probably worth 300 euro if we were to sell it. It currently wont start and is stuck in a garage. I rang mazda to price a distributor - have a guess at the price - 830eu + VAT. Crazy. Unless I can get half decent looking & cheap parts in the breakers yards, the car will probably have to go for good, sadly.

I also have a 96D motor and in general would be an advocate of keeping an old car going. The amount of nightmare bills ive heard about on more modern machinery is frightening.

Well, that's still only equivalent to 4 or 5 monthly payments on a new car (or even 1-2 year old), that's after a sizeable deposit and possibly even a payment at the end (all depending on the car). Been weighing up options/wishes here this last while and I'm a lot happier now about spending on the current car - the odd couple of hundred is put in context.

In your case of course maybe that specific car will just need more and more done from now on, I don't know. Of course if you replace it and only step ahead 10 years or less in car age, you might still end up having to put just as much money in unless you're very sure just what you're getting and in what condition under the hood.

ninty9er

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Spending money regularly is what gets people, be it fuel, tax, servicing, tyres. Depreciation is only realised when you sell the car. It shouldn't affect the running of a car when in your ownership.

Marcusm wrote: »

An interesting philiosophy; the alternative approach would be to recognise that as soon as the cash goes out the door, most of it will never come back so you should look after the asset as you are already committed to the depreciation.

MuppetCheck is correct. In accounting and tax terms you cannot realise depreciation until you know what it actually is.

I spent a bit under €2,500 on my car recently, it cost €700 to tax and another €2,300 to make it mechanically sound.

I could have gone out, spent €4k on the next cheapest one with 6 months tax and ended up in a hard shoulder with a snapped timing belt and a blown turbo. Buying muck and working it into silver is far more worthwhile if you're not afraid of it.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

Fear kills old cars

Elisha Big Loudspeaker

Elisha Big Loudspeaker wrote: »

Cars are still for the most part very reliable. Its lack of maintenance or incorrect use (as far as diesels are concerned) that is causing a the majority of problems.

I think the unreliability of cars gets exaggerated because its always the people with the problems we read about on this and other forums etc. Whereas in reality that's only a very small fraction of the overall number of a particular car on the road.

This is true. No forums are posting how reliable my car is. Also many myths exist. W203 Benz is a good example. In 2001/2 there was some problems and this is expanded by people with no knowing to all years. In fact there really were no electric problems with this models, what there was is an oil leaking at about 50k from cam magnets sensor that went into loom and caused electric problems. Easy fixed in 2003 with short isolating cable between loom and magnets sensor. Bad mistake from benz but fixed with recall. With this fix they made very reliable car.

Marcusm

ninty9er wrote: »

MuppetCheck is correct. In accounting and tax terms you cannot realise depreciation until you know what it actually is.

Seeing as you have brought accounting and tax into it, actually depreciation is a non cash cost and is never realised per se. It is recognised for accounting and tax purposes over the life of the asset and certainly not at the end. If you idn't depreciate then you would realise a loss on sale but the cash realisation of that depreciation is on day 1 when you pay for it.

Jim Murphy 69

porsche959 wrote: »

But in any case a 'paddy-spec' 151 D econobox is more reliable, more fuel efficient, and better put together than a top of the range luxury car with all the options from the 1980s or 1990s (and I personally have never bought a new car in my life, and don't intend doing so).

Are you seriously suggesting to me that a "paddy spec" 151 D econobox is going to be more reliable and better built than the first generation Lexus LS400 (1UZ-FE)?

Toyota spent $1.5 billion in the late 80's trying to build a car that would rival the best in the world and I think they did a pretty fine job. A previous Lexus salesman told me one of his sales pitches was to rev the engine from idle with a cigarette lighter standing on the engine and no matter how high the RPM, it would still not fall over! Try doing that do a 3 cylinder Aygo?

If I remember from my motorsport days the only naturally balanced engine configuration is a straight 6 or a V-12. How Lexus managed to get a V8 so dynamically balanced was an engineering marvel. That is one of the reasons why these cars can be seen today with biblical mileage (500,000 miles plus)!

Naturally newer cars have become more efficient due to greater research and development in the area however that has come at a huge cost to vehicle longevity and reliability. To write that a modern small car such as an Aygo is better put together and more reliable than an LS400 from 20 years ago is almost embarrassing to read!